Friday, February 15. 2008
Prof. Estabrooks Proposal
Your comments and thoughts are welcome on Prof. Estabrooks suggestions to the Pre-Conciliar Commission.
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The core of the problem is this concept of two sides. There can be no division, or two sides in God's Church. If the bishops of the Church are in conflict with much of the presbytery and laity of the Church, there remains a serious problem that must be resolved. Our Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ, who is the Way, the Truth, and the Life must be our focus and reality. The Truth, which is the Way to Life must be manifest in God's Church. This reality transcends all other considerations, and the Holy Spirit will ensure that it comes to pass in some time and manner.
#1
Marc Trolinger
on
2008-02-15 16:16
I am quite surprised that not many turn to the Fathers of the church for answers. For the last 2 years most posters have fallen for the lie that all must be in the open. For starters consider this treatise:
against publishing the errors of the brethren
St. john Chrysostom
HOMILY.
Upon the not publishing the errors of the Brethren, nor uttering imprecations upon enemies.
1. I account you happy for the zeal, beloved, with which you flock into the Father’s house. For from this zeal I have ground for feeling confidence about your health also with respect to the soul; for indeed the school of the Church is an admirable surgery—a surgery, not for bodies, but for souls. For it is spiritual, and sets right, not fleshly wounds, but errors of the mind,769769 διανοίας. In Chrysostom equivalent to the νοῦς of St. Paul (Rom. xii. 2); the moral and spiritual mind. ̔Αμαρτήματα. Lit. missings of the mark: errors of the moral will. Διονοία is so used. 1 John v. 20. and of these errors and wounds the medicine is the word. …I wanted the full homily printed but the editor of this web site failed to post it so here is the short version:
For that thou art more insolent than he, listen to the story itself. A certain man owed ten thousand talents to his master; then, not having (wherewith) to pay, he entreated him to be long-suffering, in order that, his wife having been sold and his house and his children, he might settle his master’s claim. And the master seeing him lamenting had compassion on him, and remitted the ten thousand talents. He having gone out and found another servant owing him a hundred pence, seizing his throat demanded them with great cruelty and inhumanity. The Master having heard this threw him into the prison, and laid on him again the debt of the ten thousand talents which he had before remitted; and he paid the penalty of the cruelty shown towards his fellow-servant.
12. Now do thou consider in how much more unfeeling and insensible in a way thou hast acted even than he, praying against thine enemies. He did not beg his master to demand, but he himself demanded, the hundred pence; whereas thou even callest on the Master for this shameless and forbidden demand. And he seized his fellow-servant’s throat not before his lord’s eyes, but outside; while thou in the very moment of prayer, standing in the King’s presence, doest this. And if he, for doing this without either having urged his master to the demand, and after going forth, met with no forgiveness; thou, both stirring up the Master to (exacting) this forbidden payment, and doing this before his eyes, what sort of penalty will thou have to pay? tell me. But thy mind is inflamed by the memory of the enmity, and swells, and thy heart rises,796796 Possibly “stomach.” Comp. Thuc. ii. 49, ὁπότε ἐς τὴν καρδίαν οτηρίξαι. Lat. stomachor. A medical sense, and the metaphor here is medical throughout. So “cardiacus.” Juvenal. and when recurring in memory to him who has caused pain, thou art unable to reduce the swelling of thy thought. But set against this inflammation the memory resulting from thine own sins committed the fear resulting from the punishment to come. Recall to memory for how many things thou art accountable to thy master, and that for all those things thou owest Him satisfaction; and this fear will surely overcome that anger; since indeed this is far more powerful than that passion. Recall the memory of hell and punishment and vengeance during the time of thy prayer; and thou wilt not be able even to receive thine enemy into 242thy mind.797797 Because it is filled with better thoughts. No room for him. Make thy mind contrite, humble thy soul by the memory of the offences committed by thee, and wrath will not be able even to trouble thee. But the cause of all these evils is this, that we scrutinise the sins of all others with great exactitude; while we let our own pass with great remissness. Whereas we ought to do the contrary—to keep our own faults unforgotten; but never even to admit a thought of those of others. If we do this we shall both have God propitious, and shall cease cherishing immortal anger against our neighbours, and we shall never have any one as an enemy; and even if we should have at any time we shall both quickly put an end to his enmity, and should obtain speedy pardon for our own sins. For just as he who treasures up the memory of wrong against his neighbour does not permit the punishment upon his own sins to be done away; so he who is clear of anger will speedily be clear of sins also. For if we, wicked as we are and enslaved to passion, on account of the commandment of God overlook all the faults committed against us, much more will He who is a lover of mankind, and good, and free from any passion, overlook our delinquencies, rendering to us the recompense of our kindly spirit towards our neighbour in the forgiveness of our own sins: which God grant that we may attain, by the grace and lovingkindness of our Lord Jesus Christ, to whom is the glory and the dominion, to the ages of the ages. Amen.
I would encourage all to read the full homily which can be found by searching for St. John Chrsostom on the web. I pray that from this moment we cease trying to prove the Hierarchy of “The Orthodox Church in America” wrong in their right to withhold information. I recall the priest that stated emphatically the Metropolitan was wrong when he wrote about “covering the sins” in the story of Noah and his sons. Evidently he never quite understood the parable and is now acting like the evil servant. We owe a great deal to God for his forgiveness of our immense debt. He did not ask any of us to spell out in detail what we owe him. Also I now understand better the meaning of; “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” (applies to the Apostles and Bishops only. See Orthodox Study Bible page 266 verses 19 to 23 and also footnote on 20:21-23
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against publishing the errors of the brethren
St. john Chrysostom
HOMILY.
Upon the not publishing the errors of the Brethren, nor uttering imprecations upon enemies.
1. I account you happy for the zeal, beloved, with which you flock into the Father’s house. For from this zeal I have ground for feeling confidence about your health also with respect to the soul; for indeed the school of the Church is an admirable surgery—a surgery, not for bodies, but for souls. For it is spiritual, and sets right, not fleshly wounds, but errors of the mind,769769 διανοίας. In Chrysostom equivalent to the νοῦς of St. Paul (Rom. xii. 2); the moral and spiritual mind. ̔Αμαρτήματα. Lit. missings of the mark: errors of the moral will. Διονοία is so used. 1 John v. 20. and of these errors and wounds the medicine is the word. …I wanted the full homily printed but the editor of this web site failed to post it so here is the short version:
For that thou art more insolent than he, listen to the story itself. A certain man owed ten thousand talents to his master; then, not having (wherewith) to pay, he entreated him to be long-suffering, in order that, his wife having been sold and his house and his children, he might settle his master’s claim. And the master seeing him lamenting had compassion on him, and remitted the ten thousand talents. He having gone out and found another servant owing him a hundred pence, seizing his throat demanded them with great cruelty and inhumanity. The Master having heard this threw him into the prison, and laid on him again the debt of the ten thousand talents which he had before remitted; and he paid the penalty of the cruelty shown towards his fellow-servant.
12. Now do thou consider in how much more unfeeling and insensible in a way thou hast acted even than he, praying against thine enemies. He did not beg his master to demand, but he himself demanded, the hundred pence; whereas thou even callest on the Master for this shameless and forbidden demand. And he seized his fellow-servant’s throat not before his lord’s eyes, but outside; while thou in the very moment of prayer, standing in the King’s presence, doest this. And if he, for doing this without either having urged his master to the demand, and after going forth, met with no forgiveness; thou, both stirring up the Master to (exacting) this forbidden payment, and doing this before his eyes, what sort of penalty will thou have to pay? tell me. But thy mind is inflamed by the memory of the enmity, and swells, and thy heart rises,796796 Possibly “stomach.” Comp. Thuc. ii. 49, ὁπότε ἐς τὴν καρδίαν οτηρίξαι. Lat. stomachor. A medical sense, and the metaphor here is medical throughout. So “cardiacus.” Juvenal. and when recurring in memory to him who has caused pain, thou art unable to reduce the swelling of thy thought. But set against this inflammation the memory resulting from thine own sins committed the fear resulting from the punishment to come. Recall to memory for how many things thou art accountable to thy master, and that for all those things thou owest Him satisfaction; and this fear will surely overcome that anger; since indeed this is far more powerful than that passion. Recall the memory of hell and punishment and vengeance during the time of thy prayer; and thou wilt not be able even to receive thine enemy into 242thy mind.797797 Because it is filled with better thoughts. No room for him. Make thy mind contrite, humble thy soul by the memory of the offences committed by thee, and wrath will not be able even to trouble thee. But the cause of all these evils is this, that we scrutinise the sins of all others with great exactitude; while we let our own pass with great remissness. Whereas we ought to do the contrary—to keep our own faults unforgotten; but never even to admit a thought of those of others. If we do this we shall both have God propitious, and shall cease cherishing immortal anger against our neighbours, and we shall never have any one as an enemy; and even if we should have at any time we shall both quickly put an end to his enmity, and should obtain speedy pardon for our own sins. For just as he who treasures up the memory of wrong against his neighbour does not permit the punishment upon his own sins to be done away; so he who is clear of anger will speedily be clear of sins also. For if we, wicked as we are and enslaved to passion, on account of the commandment of God overlook all the faults committed against us, much more will He who is a lover of mankind, and good, and free from any passion, overlook our delinquencies, rendering to us the recompense of our kindly spirit towards our neighbour in the forgiveness of our own sins: which God grant that we may attain, by the grace and lovingkindness of our Lord Jesus Christ, to whom is the glory and the dominion, to the ages of the ages. Amen.
I would encourage all to read the full homily which can be found by searching for St. John Chrsostom on the web. I pray that from this moment we cease trying to prove the Hierarchy of “The Orthodox Church in America” wrong in their right to withhold information. I recall the priest that stated emphatically the Metropolitan was wrong when he wrote about “covering the sins” in the story of Noah and his sons. Evidently he never quite understood the parable and is now acting like the evil servant. We owe a great deal to God for his forgiveness of our immense debt. He did not ask any of us to spell out in detail what we owe him. Also I now understand better the meaning of; “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” (applies to the Apostles and Bishops only. See Orthodox Study Bible page 266 verses 19 to 23 and also footnote on 20:21-23
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#1.1
Anonymous
on
2008-02-19 04:33
Dear Anonymous,
I don't think it is impossible to reconcile the demands for reform -- whatever forms they may take -- with an interior attitude of personal repentance and forgiveness of others. Your interpretation of the homily and scripture may encourage the innocence of the dove, but it certainly does not provide the wisdom of the serpent. Let me give you an example.
If you live in Illinois, you can go to the Illinois State Police website and locate all registered sex offenders that live near you. Their addresses, crimes and even their pictures are published right there for all the world to see. Their sins are exposed. If you have small children or grandchildren, would it be unchristian to check out this website to see if any of the friendly old fellows in the neighborhood are convicted child molesters?
Now, if you were moved out of concern for your family to visit the sex offender website, would you be doing so in order to condemn them, to feel superior, to say to yourself "Thank God I am not like all those filthy perverts!" You might be tempted to, but it would be proper to remember your own sins and also that you do not know the hearts of others, their temptations or their own repentance.
If it is not your family that may be at risk, but your church family, your church home, is it unchristian to try to by nearly any means save it? Or do you believe that the OCA is not placed at risk by its current leadership, has not been wounded, perhaps mortally? Can you have a practical concern for the criminal or immoral and destructive tendencies of others without interiorly condemning them? I think you can. I can only imagine how hard Satan goes after the big fish. I'm a nobody and I know how interested he is in me. You just have to read my posts here to see how eaten up with vainglory I am, and that's probably one of my better points.
But that doesn't mean your post is correct. I am in danger of hellfire for uttering "fool." Are you sure you are not for allowing the OCA talents to lie fallow in the ground rather than doing what you can to ensure a good return? I try not judge. God knows. He will one day judge who acted out of love and who acted out of fear, weakness, ignorance or malice. It may be none of us or all of us.
From time to time this incredibly self-serving argument rises like a vampire. It is somehow "unspiritual" or "sinful" or "prideful" to take an interest in our leaders who may have stumbled. What you fail to understand is that it is not the stumbling we care about, as far as I can tell. It is the collateral damage being wrought as stumbling hierarchs chase each around the church like Looney Tunes characters, scaring off the faithful and smashing the iconostasis.
Does the church have a "right to withold information?" I believe it does, but that right is not unlimited. If a priest was molesting altar boys, would it have a right to withhold that information? Your argument would suggest yes. But ask the Catholic Church. How about stealing church funds? I don't think it does have that right, not when millions are missing, because that goes directly to its continued institutional existence and its real work (which should be evangelization). How about consenting adult homosexual relations (or, for that matter heterosexual) among clergy? It may surprise you to learn that I believe it does have the right to withhold that information, but I also trust it to be dealing with it, not fostering a culture of it.
When the church has failed to deal with one scandal after another, crime upon crime, outrage upon outrage, then its "right" to withhold information starts to be diminished in my opinion. To argue otherwise is to reserve a sad and meaningless right to a collection of empty buildings where old men of suspect morals and sanity shuffle around to the echoes of their own titles.
The flip side of "rights" is "responsibilities." It is a universal law that the more one fails in one's responsibilities, the more of one's rights are taken away. At this point, with such a catastrophic failure of responsible leadership in the OCA, I am willing to recognize very few "rights" to withhold information. There was perhaps a time for that. It has long since passed. And this is the fundamental point Syosset doesn't get. What was once an opportunity for quiet prudence has become nothing but cover-up, deception, and self-delusion.
This will never, ever, be resolved without satisfactory disclosure. This is not my demand or Mark Stokoe's -- it is the dynamic of the situation they themselves have created, whether you like it or not.
Why don't we, instead of talking about "rights," talk about "obligations?" Do you believe your OCA has obligations, and its hierarchy? Do you believe it is meeting those obligations? Do you care one way or the other as long as you can be selectively non-judgmental? When the OCA is finally circling around the drain, will you wish you had had the wisdom not to confuse accountability with harsh judgment?
The last paragraph was harsher than I wish to take with someone like you who appears to be sincere, and does offer up good words for us to think about from time to time. But your argument is so pernicious I find myself using plain language to address it. I would like to drive a stake through its heart.
I personally don't care what these men have done. I don't know them and I had never heard of any of them when I converted to Orthodoxy. I wish them many years and every good thing and joy. If they are hardened in sin, I hope they are better at repentance than I am. If they are mentally ill, I hope they receive wise and humane treatment for their afflictions. If they are innocent -- above all -- if they are innocent I hope they are unambiguously vindicated.
But I don't want them running our church.
In fact, I wouldn't trust them running a Sno-Cone stand.
Sensitive readers who are bothered by violent crime may wish to skip the remainder, but I believe it is helpful to point out my bona fides when it comes to being judgmental or not, and to further illustrate the circumstances under which one may distinguish between the sin and the sinner.
I don't presume it may interest anybody, but I have a reason to say that I practice criminal defense exclusively. This is how I have chosen to spend my career. I have a greater understanding of the bad things people do than most people. I have represented many murderers. Some have murdered children. Perhaps you watch CSI for entertainment, I don't know. Most people could not easily tolerate what I deal with every day. A recurring memory some nights is the bloody handprint left by a young girl on the underside of the trunk lid of a car. She struggled, gunshot, for God knows how long in the dark, cramped place she would die, next to her murdered mother.
So don't imagine I'm particularly shocked by a few millions gone or a accusations of some gay romps.
This is what I have learned at the intersection of my personal and professional lives. There are no monsters. There are only people in the image of God who sin. Unless I am deluded, I have compassion for every murderer, every child molester, every sinner, although, as a sinner myself, I may become frustrated and rude. (Sometimes even rudeness is tactical, though; I am thinking that the best way to deal with puffed-up self-importance is with a sharp lampoon.) Nearly always that compassion is returned warmly, genuinely.
So before anyone lectures me again about judging people, ask yourself if you could weep tears of joy when the life of a man who beat a little boy to death with a belt over the course of three days was spared. (If you're an Oprah fan you may remember that one from a few years ago.) And I don't expect to be thought well of for this. I know the assumptions people make regarding criminal defense lawyers, and the assumptions about the moral state of someone who would choose to defend the worst of the worst.
I'm sure you all know far more than you ever wanted to about this truly unworthy sinner now, but I wanted my words against this horrible (if sincerely horrible) argument to carry the weight of someone who with deals with very bad acts all the time and has been given the one grace to (usually) care for the men who do them.
I don't think it is impossible to reconcile the demands for reform -- whatever forms they may take -- with an interior attitude of personal repentance and forgiveness of others. Your interpretation of the homily and scripture may encourage the innocence of the dove, but it certainly does not provide the wisdom of the serpent. Let me give you an example.
If you live in Illinois, you can go to the Illinois State Police website and locate all registered sex offenders that live near you. Their addresses, crimes and even their pictures are published right there for all the world to see. Their sins are exposed. If you have small children or grandchildren, would it be unchristian to check out this website to see if any of the friendly old fellows in the neighborhood are convicted child molesters?
Now, if you were moved out of concern for your family to visit the sex offender website, would you be doing so in order to condemn them, to feel superior, to say to yourself "Thank God I am not like all those filthy perverts!" You might be tempted to, but it would be proper to remember your own sins and also that you do not know the hearts of others, their temptations or their own repentance.
If it is not your family that may be at risk, but your church family, your church home, is it unchristian to try to by nearly any means save it? Or do you believe that the OCA is not placed at risk by its current leadership, has not been wounded, perhaps mortally? Can you have a practical concern for the criminal or immoral and destructive tendencies of others without interiorly condemning them? I think you can. I can only imagine how hard Satan goes after the big fish. I'm a nobody and I know how interested he is in me. You just have to read my posts here to see how eaten up with vainglory I am, and that's probably one of my better points.
But that doesn't mean your post is correct. I am in danger of hellfire for uttering "fool." Are you sure you are not for allowing the OCA talents to lie fallow in the ground rather than doing what you can to ensure a good return? I try not judge. God knows. He will one day judge who acted out of love and who acted out of fear, weakness, ignorance or malice. It may be none of us or all of us.
From time to time this incredibly self-serving argument rises like a vampire. It is somehow "unspiritual" or "sinful" or "prideful" to take an interest in our leaders who may have stumbled. What you fail to understand is that it is not the stumbling we care about, as far as I can tell. It is the collateral damage being wrought as stumbling hierarchs chase each around the church like Looney Tunes characters, scaring off the faithful and smashing the iconostasis.
Does the church have a "right to withold information?" I believe it does, but that right is not unlimited. If a priest was molesting altar boys, would it have a right to withhold that information? Your argument would suggest yes. But ask the Catholic Church. How about stealing church funds? I don't think it does have that right, not when millions are missing, because that goes directly to its continued institutional existence and its real work (which should be evangelization). How about consenting adult homosexual relations (or, for that matter heterosexual) among clergy? It may surprise you to learn that I believe it does have the right to withhold that information, but I also trust it to be dealing with it, not fostering a culture of it.
When the church has failed to deal with one scandal after another, crime upon crime, outrage upon outrage, then its "right" to withhold information starts to be diminished in my opinion. To argue otherwise is to reserve a sad and meaningless right to a collection of empty buildings where old men of suspect morals and sanity shuffle around to the echoes of their own titles.
The flip side of "rights" is "responsibilities." It is a universal law that the more one fails in one's responsibilities, the more of one's rights are taken away. At this point, with such a catastrophic failure of responsible leadership in the OCA, I am willing to recognize very few "rights" to withhold information. There was perhaps a time for that. It has long since passed. And this is the fundamental point Syosset doesn't get. What was once an opportunity for quiet prudence has become nothing but cover-up, deception, and self-delusion.
This will never, ever, be resolved without satisfactory disclosure. This is not my demand or Mark Stokoe's -- it is the dynamic of the situation they themselves have created, whether you like it or not.
Why don't we, instead of talking about "rights," talk about "obligations?" Do you believe your OCA has obligations, and its hierarchy? Do you believe it is meeting those obligations? Do you care one way or the other as long as you can be selectively non-judgmental? When the OCA is finally circling around the drain, will you wish you had had the wisdom not to confuse accountability with harsh judgment?
The last paragraph was harsher than I wish to take with someone like you who appears to be sincere, and does offer up good words for us to think about from time to time. But your argument is so pernicious I find myself using plain language to address it. I would like to drive a stake through its heart.
I personally don't care what these men have done. I don't know them and I had never heard of any of them when I converted to Orthodoxy. I wish them many years and every good thing and joy. If they are hardened in sin, I hope they are better at repentance than I am. If they are mentally ill, I hope they receive wise and humane treatment for their afflictions. If they are innocent -- above all -- if they are innocent I hope they are unambiguously vindicated.
But I don't want them running our church.
In fact, I wouldn't trust them running a Sno-Cone stand.
Sensitive readers who are bothered by violent crime may wish to skip the remainder, but I believe it is helpful to point out my bona fides when it comes to being judgmental or not, and to further illustrate the circumstances under which one may distinguish between the sin and the sinner.
I don't presume it may interest anybody, but I have a reason to say that I practice criminal defense exclusively. This is how I have chosen to spend my career. I have a greater understanding of the bad things people do than most people. I have represented many murderers. Some have murdered children. Perhaps you watch CSI for entertainment, I don't know. Most people could not easily tolerate what I deal with every day. A recurring memory some nights is the bloody handprint left by a young girl on the underside of the trunk lid of a car. She struggled, gunshot, for God knows how long in the dark, cramped place she would die, next to her murdered mother.
So don't imagine I'm particularly shocked by a few millions gone or a accusations of some gay romps.
This is what I have learned at the intersection of my personal and professional lives. There are no monsters. There are only people in the image of God who sin. Unless I am deluded, I have compassion for every murderer, every child molester, every sinner, although, as a sinner myself, I may become frustrated and rude. (Sometimes even rudeness is tactical, though; I am thinking that the best way to deal with puffed-up self-importance is with a sharp lampoon.) Nearly always that compassion is returned warmly, genuinely.
So before anyone lectures me again about judging people, ask yourself if you could weep tears of joy when the life of a man who beat a little boy to death with a belt over the course of three days was spared. (If you're an Oprah fan you may remember that one from a few years ago.) And I don't expect to be thought well of for this. I know the assumptions people make regarding criminal defense lawyers, and the assumptions about the moral state of someone who would choose to defend the worst of the worst.
I'm sure you all know far more than you ever wanted to about this truly unworthy sinner now, but I wanted my words against this horrible (if sincerely horrible) argument to carry the weight of someone who with deals with very bad acts all the time and has been given the one grace to (usually) care for the men who do them.
#1.1.1
Timothy Capps, Esq.
on
2008-02-21 14:40
Amen! This is an eloquent and moving response to the "don't judge them" argument one finds so often on this site. You are a true credit to your profession.
KRT
KRT
#1.1.1.1
Anonymous
on
2008-02-21 19:04
If one understands this homily by St. John Chrysostom in the context of the corpus of all of his written works and his life's experiences, the point that anonymous attempts to make rings hollow. St. John's personal belief and admonishments to the faithful about making judgments regarding another's sins and their effects upon the salvation of the individual, has nothing to do with holding those in positions of authority to account for their actions. St. John suffered much in his own life due to his unwavering efforts to hold those in positions of authority in the Church and in government to account for their actions.
#1.1.2
Marc Trolinger
on
2008-02-23 08:31
I am quite surprised that not many turn to the Fathers of the church for answers. For the last 2 years most posters have fallen for the lie that all must be in the open. For starters consider this treatise:
against publishing the errors of the brethren
St. john Chrysostom
HOMILY.
Upon the not publishing the errors of the Brethren, nor uttering imprecations upon enemies.
1. I account you happy for the zeal, beloved, with which you flock into the Father’s house. For from this zeal I have ground for feeling confidence about your health also with respect to the soul; for indeed the school of the Church is an admirable surgery—a surgery, not for bodies, but for souls. For it is spiritual, and sets right, not fleshly wounds, but errors of the mind,769769 διανοίας. In Chrysostom equivalent to the νοῦς of St. Paul (Rom. xii. 2); the moral and spiritual mind. ̔Αμαρτήματα. Lit. missings of the mark: errors of the moral will. Διονοία is so used. 1 John v. 20. and of these errors and wounds the medicine is the word. …I wanted the full homily printed but the editor of this web site failed to post it so here is the short version:
For that thou art more insolent than he, listen to the story itself. A certain man owed ten thousand talents to his master; then, not having (wherewith) to pay, he entreated him to be long-suffering, in order that, his wife having been sold and his house and his children, he might settle his master’s claim. And the master seeing him lamenting had compassion on him, and remitted the ten thousand talents. He having gone out and found another servant owing him a hundred pence, seizing his throat demanded them with great cruelty and inhumanity. The Master having heard this threw him into the prison, and laid on him again the debt of the ten thousand talents which he had before remitted; and he paid the penalty of the cruelty shown towards his fellow-servant.
12. Now do thou consider in how much more unfeeling and insensible in a way thou hast acted even than he, praying against thine enemies. He did not beg his master to demand, but he himself demanded, the hundred pence; whereas thou even callest on the Master for this shameless and forbidden demand. And he seized his fellow-servant’s throat not before his lord’s eyes, but outside; while thou in the very moment of prayer, standing in the King’s presence, doest this. And if he, for doing this without either having urged his master to the demand, and after going forth, met with no forgiveness; thou, both stirring up the Master to (exacting) this forbidden payment, and doing this before his eyes, what sort of penalty will thou have to pay? tell me. But thy mind is inflamed by the memory of the enmity, and swells, and thy heart rises,796796 Possibly “stomach.” Comp. Thuc. ii. 49, ὁπότε ἐς τὴν καρδίαν οτηρίξαι. Lat. stomachor. A medical sense, and the metaphor here is medical throughout. So “cardiacus.” Juvenal. and when recurring in memory to him who has caused pain, thou art unable to reduce the swelling of thy thought. But set against this inflammation the memory resulting from thine own sins committed the fear resulting from the punishment to come. Recall to memory for how many things thou art accountable to thy master, and that for all those things thou owest Him satisfaction; and this fear will surely overcome that anger; since indeed this is far more powerful than that passion. Recall the memory of hell and punishment and vengeance during the time of thy prayer; and thou wilt not be able even to receive thine enemy into 242thy mind.797797 Because it is filled with better thoughts. No room for him. Make thy mind contrite, humble thy soul by the memory of the offences committed by thee, and wrath will not be able even to trouble thee. But the cause of all these evils is this, that we scrutinise the sins of all others with great exactitude; while we let our own pass with great remissness. Whereas we ought to do the contrary—to keep our own faults unforgotten; but never even to admit a thought of those of others. If we do this we shall both have God propitious, and shall cease cherishing immortal anger against our neighbours, and we shall never have any one as an enemy; and even if we should have at any time we shall both quickly put an end to his enmity, and should obtain speedy pardon for our own sins. For just as he who treasures up the memory of wrong against his neighbour does not permit the punishment upon his own sins to be done away; so he who is clear of anger will speedily be clear of sins also. For if we, wicked as we are and enslaved to passion, on account of the commandment of God overlook all the faults committed against us, much more will He who is a lover of mankind, and good, and free from any passion, overlook our delinquencies, rendering to us the recompense of our kindly spirit towards our neighbour in the forgiveness of our own sins: which God grant that we may attain, by the grace and lovingkindness of our Lord Jesus Christ, to whom is the glory and the dominion, to the ages of the ages. Amen.
I would encourage all to read the full homily which can be found by searching for St. John Chrsostom on the web. I pray that from this moment we cease trying to prove the Hierarchy of “The Orthodox Church in America” wrong in their right to withhold information. I recall the priest that stated emphatically the Metropolitan was wrong when he wrote about “covering the sins” in the story of Noah and his sons. Evidently he never quite understood the parable and is now acting like the evil servant. We owe a great deal to God for his forgiveness of our immense debt. He did not ask any of us to spell out in detail what we owe him. Also I now understand better the meaning of; “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” (applies to the Apostles and Bishops only. See Orthodox Study Bible page 266 verses 19 to 23 and also footnote on 20:21-23
against publishing the errors of the brethren
St. john Chrysostom
HOMILY.
Upon the not publishing the errors of the Brethren, nor uttering imprecations upon enemies.
1. I account you happy for the zeal, beloved, with which you flock into the Father’s house. For from this zeal I have ground for feeling confidence about your health also with respect to the soul; for indeed the school of the Church is an admirable surgery—a surgery, not for bodies, but for souls. For it is spiritual, and sets right, not fleshly wounds, but errors of the mind,769769 διανοίας. In Chrysostom equivalent to the νοῦς of St. Paul (Rom. xii. 2); the moral and spiritual mind. ̔Αμαρτήματα. Lit. missings of the mark: errors of the moral will. Διονοία is so used. 1 John v. 20. and of these errors and wounds the medicine is the word. …I wanted the full homily printed but the editor of this web site failed to post it so here is the short version:
For that thou art more insolent than he, listen to the story itself. A certain man owed ten thousand talents to his master; then, not having (wherewith) to pay, he entreated him to be long-suffering, in order that, his wife having been sold and his house and his children, he might settle his master’s claim. And the master seeing him lamenting had compassion on him, and remitted the ten thousand talents. He having gone out and found another servant owing him a hundred pence, seizing his throat demanded them with great cruelty and inhumanity. The Master having heard this threw him into the prison, and laid on him again the debt of the ten thousand talents which he had before remitted; and he paid the penalty of the cruelty shown towards his fellow-servant.
12. Now do thou consider in how much more unfeeling and insensible in a way thou hast acted even than he, praying against thine enemies. He did not beg his master to demand, but he himself demanded, the hundred pence; whereas thou even callest on the Master for this shameless and forbidden demand. And he seized his fellow-servant’s throat not before his lord’s eyes, but outside; while thou in the very moment of prayer, standing in the King’s presence, doest this. And if he, for doing this without either having urged his master to the demand, and after going forth, met with no forgiveness; thou, both stirring up the Master to (exacting) this forbidden payment, and doing this before his eyes, what sort of penalty will thou have to pay? tell me. But thy mind is inflamed by the memory of the enmity, and swells, and thy heart rises,796796 Possibly “stomach.” Comp. Thuc. ii. 49, ὁπότε ἐς τὴν καρδίαν οτηρίξαι. Lat. stomachor. A medical sense, and the metaphor here is medical throughout. So “cardiacus.” Juvenal. and when recurring in memory to him who has caused pain, thou art unable to reduce the swelling of thy thought. But set against this inflammation the memory resulting from thine own sins committed the fear resulting from the punishment to come. Recall to memory for how many things thou art accountable to thy master, and that for all those things thou owest Him satisfaction; and this fear will surely overcome that anger; since indeed this is far more powerful than that passion. Recall the memory of hell and punishment and vengeance during the time of thy prayer; and thou wilt not be able even to receive thine enemy into 242thy mind.797797 Because it is filled with better thoughts. No room for him. Make thy mind contrite, humble thy soul by the memory of the offences committed by thee, and wrath will not be able even to trouble thee. But the cause of all these evils is this, that we scrutinise the sins of all others with great exactitude; while we let our own pass with great remissness. Whereas we ought to do the contrary—to keep our own faults unforgotten; but never even to admit a thought of those of others. If we do this we shall both have God propitious, and shall cease cherishing immortal anger against our neighbours, and we shall never have any one as an enemy; and even if we should have at any time we shall both quickly put an end to his enmity, and should obtain speedy pardon for our own sins. For just as he who treasures up the memory of wrong against his neighbour does not permit the punishment upon his own sins to be done away; so he who is clear of anger will speedily be clear of sins also. For if we, wicked as we are and enslaved to passion, on account of the commandment of God overlook all the faults committed against us, much more will He who is a lover of mankind, and good, and free from any passion, overlook our delinquencies, rendering to us the recompense of our kindly spirit towards our neighbour in the forgiveness of our own sins: which God grant that we may attain, by the grace and lovingkindness of our Lord Jesus Christ, to whom is the glory and the dominion, to the ages of the ages. Amen.
I would encourage all to read the full homily which can be found by searching for St. John Chrsostom on the web. I pray that from this moment we cease trying to prove the Hierarchy of “The Orthodox Church in America” wrong in their right to withhold information. I recall the priest that stated emphatically the Metropolitan was wrong when he wrote about “covering the sins” in the story of Noah and his sons. Evidently he never quite understood the parable and is now acting like the evil servant. We owe a great deal to God for his forgiveness of our immense debt. He did not ask any of us to spell out in detail what we owe him. Also I now understand better the meaning of; “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” (applies to the Apostles and Bishops only. See Orthodox Study Bible page 266 verses 19 to 23 and also footnote on 20:21-23
#1.2
Anonymous
on
2008-02-19 08:20
This proposal is a worthy effort that might even have worked a year ago had the Synod shown the slightest interest in addressing, rather than burying, the scandal. But now it is too late, and, as the author readily admits, not likely to be embraced at this date by the powers that be.
Subsequent developments have shown that the Synod has no good or Godly reason for bottling up the truth. It is not the interests of the Church they are serving, but rather the protection of their own posteriors. With all collective credibility gone, and I mean ALL, the only constructive action they can now take is to resign forthwith. If they were willing to do that then reconciliation, forgiveness and mercy would be rapidly forthcoming from the Faithful.
I do take issue with the assertion in this reflection that there is no crisis relating to the exercise and scope of Episcopal authority. This is at the very heart of the crisis and the most difficult issue to address, especially in our one small branch of the Church. I believe that some of the bishops, in truth most of them, have a perverted, and even heretical, understanding of how their authority can be used and to whom they are accountable.
It is indeed ironic, that it is the bishops themselves, who have created this crisis of authority.
KRT
Subsequent developments have shown that the Synod has no good or Godly reason for bottling up the truth. It is not the interests of the Church they are serving, but rather the protection of their own posteriors. With all collective credibility gone, and I mean ALL, the only constructive action they can now take is to resign forthwith. If they were willing to do that then reconciliation, forgiveness and mercy would be rapidly forthcoming from the Faithful.
I do take issue with the assertion in this reflection that there is no crisis relating to the exercise and scope of Episcopal authority. This is at the very heart of the crisis and the most difficult issue to address, especially in our one small branch of the Church. I believe that some of the bishops, in truth most of them, have a perverted, and even heretical, understanding of how their authority can be used and to whom they are accountable.
It is indeed ironic, that it is the bishops themselves, who have created this crisis of authority.
KRT
#2
Kenneth R. Tobin
on
2008-02-15 16:21
I then suppose that you are saying the Bishops are accountable to the people. Well, well, well, I have heard that story before. It seems to me during the crucifixion of
Christ, “Crucify Him, crucify Him!” In other words you are not satisfied with the hierarchical structure of the Orthodox Church established by Christ and His
Apostles. What you are saying is that we need a more democratic and congregational church just like there was in 1917-1918 in Russia when people could choose to belong to The Living Church, The Reformed Church, The Conservative Church or any one of the other Orthodox Churches at that time. (I refer you to post #14 on this website in Share your comments: Kodiak Daily Mirror Story. This posting, which rightly should have been placed under post # 42 in share your comments: Myendorff’s letter) you should really read what happened after 1918 in Russia and understand that today exists a strong hierarchical structured church.
I further refer to the O.C.A statutes:
Christ, “Crucify Him, crucify Him!” In other words you are not satisfied with the hierarchical structure of the Orthodox Church established by Christ and His
Apostles. What you are saying is that we need a more democratic and congregational church just like there was in 1917-1918 in Russia when people could choose to belong to The Living Church, The Reformed Church, The Conservative Church or any one of the other Orthodox Churches at that time. (I refer you to post #14 on this website in Share your comments: Kodiak Daily Mirror Story. This posting, which rightly should have been placed under post # 42 in share your comments: Myendorff’s letter) you should really read what happened after 1918 in Russia and understand that today exists a strong hierarchical structured church.
I further refer to the O.C.A statutes:
#2.1
Anonymous
on
2008-02-20 17:35
Dear Professor Estabrooks:
While I appreciate the time, reflection, and effort that went into your proposal, I do not agree with it. First of all, I reject your premise that full disclosure cannot occur and that those responsible for unethical, perhaps illegal, acts cannot be brought to some sort of justice. My impression, having followed this crisis since OCANEWS went online, is that while the lower clergy and laity of this Church may not have the tools to compel disclosure and "justice" (whether retributive, distributive, or restitutive), the federal and state governments do. There appears to be enough evidence to warrant a criminal investigation--and if I understand correctly, one is probably underway already. The criminal justice process will compell disclosure.
Further, I just don't think your plan is workable. Who determines who was "involved" in the crookedness--the good ol' boy system runs deep--and how can culpable individuals be forced to step aside? And how can the faithful trust their leaders' assurances that all the bad things have been set straight--and how can they be held accountable if, yet again, they're not being honest with the Church?
Finally, why SHOULD those demanding truth and accountability compromise? Holding the course appears to me to be the only way to ensure that the faithful receive the Church leadership and operation that they deserve--even if it takes a while for the wheels of justice to turn. My opinion: those demanding truth and accountability should stay the course.
While I appreciate the time, reflection, and effort that went into your proposal, I do not agree with it. First of all, I reject your premise that full disclosure cannot occur and that those responsible for unethical, perhaps illegal, acts cannot be brought to some sort of justice. My impression, having followed this crisis since OCANEWS went online, is that while the lower clergy and laity of this Church may not have the tools to compel disclosure and "justice" (whether retributive, distributive, or restitutive), the federal and state governments do. There appears to be enough evidence to warrant a criminal investigation--and if I understand correctly, one is probably underway already. The criminal justice process will compell disclosure.
Further, I just don't think your plan is workable. Who determines who was "involved" in the crookedness--the good ol' boy system runs deep--and how can culpable individuals be forced to step aside? And how can the faithful trust their leaders' assurances that all the bad things have been set straight--and how can they be held accountable if, yet again, they're not being honest with the Church?
Finally, why SHOULD those demanding truth and accountability compromise? Holding the course appears to me to be the only way to ensure that the faithful receive the Church leadership and operation that they deserve--even if it takes a while for the wheels of justice to turn. My opinion: those demanding truth and accountability should stay the course.
#3
Gregory Grant
on
2008-02-15 17:25
Ok, so let me get this right, Mr. Estabrooks writes all he writes but then say, nevermind cuz the Holy Synod ain't gonna do anything anyway???
Two things are clear, no matter if we like it or not, the Orthodox Church is a hierarchical Church and THEY have the final say, "in season and out of season."
Which still does not beg the question, "HERMAN MUST RETIRE."
Herman you ain't our leader. You ain't the solution. You are part of the past and it's time for you to go your own way so the Church can move forward.
Two things are clear, no matter if we like it or not, the Orthodox Church is a hierarchical Church and THEY have the final say, "in season and out of season."
Which still does not beg the question, "HERMAN MUST RETIRE."
Herman you ain't our leader. You ain't the solution. You are part of the past and it's time for you to go your own way so the Church can move forward.
#4
Anonymous
on
2008-02-15 18:15
I read the opinion about halfway and then read the summary.
The summary says it all.
If the second and politically inferior SIC doesn't substantially report before the AAC, the AAC will be a costly chaos event.
Perhaps if a parish leaves for another branch of Orthodoxy, someone will listen when the second one goes...
The summary says it all.
If the second and politically inferior SIC doesn't substantially report before the AAC, the AAC will be a costly chaos event.
Perhaps if a parish leaves for another branch of Orthodoxy, someone will listen when the second one goes...
#5
Daniel E. Fall
on
2008-02-15 22:00
Mr. Estabrooks,
Thank you for your efforts but with all due respect many of your statements are either factually incorrect or simply misleading. How, exactly do you know that there is not an attempt not to bring forth the truth? Even the term "bleeding" that you used, where is the evidence that this is the case. Your reflection is rather poetic yet short on facts.
Again, with all due respect your approach attempts to simplify this mess -- good guys, bad guys, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. The real truth is that reality doesn't always play out like an episode of Dragnet. This mess has many facets -- incompetent administrative staff, hierarchs that have/had no skills or training in finance/administration. priests that took on roles that they should never have taken in the first place, metropolitan council members that were completely asleep at the wheel. I could go on and on.
You simply can't reduce this down to just the bishops, just the metropolitan, or just the central administration. And to unravel this is not so simple as to say, "just tell the truth." The problem is that there was so much denial, incompetence, and stupidity that even those that "know" don't know.
Here's my answer: Rejoice. Rejoice that there are new people in Syosset that appear to be competent and are trying to unravel this. Rejoice that the Metropolitan is in the twilight of his career and one way or another he will eventually step down. Rejoice that we have the internet and that people like Bishop Nikolai are under a microscope. Rejoice that we have awakened a sleeping metropolitan council that now appears to actually care about their duties and responsibilities. Rejoice that there is a committee with a good bishop, Benjamin, willing to take on the challenge of looking at this mess. Rejoice that we have an upcoming All American Council that will be different from past AACs, i.e. no Fr. Bob propaganda, no worthless budget that no one plans to follow anyway, no more pathetic and worthless resolutions that will not get enacted anyway.
Rejoice, that God is merciful and is allowing us a second chance to get it right. Pray that we don't screw it up again.
Thank you for your efforts but with all due respect many of your statements are either factually incorrect or simply misleading. How, exactly do you know that there is not an attempt not to bring forth the truth? Even the term "bleeding" that you used, where is the evidence that this is the case. Your reflection is rather poetic yet short on facts.
Again, with all due respect your approach attempts to simplify this mess -- good guys, bad guys, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. The real truth is that reality doesn't always play out like an episode of Dragnet. This mess has many facets -- incompetent administrative staff, hierarchs that have/had no skills or training in finance/administration. priests that took on roles that they should never have taken in the first place, metropolitan council members that were completely asleep at the wheel. I could go on and on.
You simply can't reduce this down to just the bishops, just the metropolitan, or just the central administration. And to unravel this is not so simple as to say, "just tell the truth." The problem is that there was so much denial, incompetence, and stupidity that even those that "know" don't know.
Here's my answer: Rejoice. Rejoice that there are new people in Syosset that appear to be competent and are trying to unravel this. Rejoice that the Metropolitan is in the twilight of his career and one way or another he will eventually step down. Rejoice that we have the internet and that people like Bishop Nikolai are under a microscope. Rejoice that we have awakened a sleeping metropolitan council that now appears to actually care about their duties and responsibilities. Rejoice that there is a committee with a good bishop, Benjamin, willing to take on the challenge of looking at this mess. Rejoice that we have an upcoming All American Council that will be different from past AACs, i.e. no Fr. Bob propaganda, no worthless budget that no one plans to follow anyway, no more pathetic and worthless resolutions that will not get enacted anyway.
Rejoice, that God is merciful and is allowing us a second chance to get it right. Pray that we don't screw it up again.
#6
Anon.
on
2008-02-16 04:33
Dear "Rejoice"--
I think most of us would say that we have a long way to go before we'll be ready to rejoice.
You say that we should rejoice because new people in Syosset are seeking to unravel what's gone on for all of these years. Are they? It seems to me that they are becoming confused in their task and are seeking primarily to defend the current regime. Most of us won't be rejoicing until a regime change takes place.
You say that we should rejoice because eventually +Herman will step down in some fashion. Yes, and some day we'll all die, too. Does that mean we should just tread water until that day? Does it mean that if we wait for +Herman to vacate his role without our struggling together as a church to articulate what it is that our Metropolitan should embody and exemplify, we'll just take whoever gets put in his place by a Synod acting very much like the one that "elected" +Herman? Again, it’s too early to be rejoicing.
You say we should rejoice because God is merciful and is allowing us a "second" chance. Most of us would say that God has given us MULTIPLE chances to get this mess cleaned up over the past MANY YEARS, and we have blown every one of them. That doesn't mean we shouldn’t try, try again, but let's not kid ourselves. This is not "Attempt Number Two" at straightening out the OCA--and we're not all waiting with bated breath to see what the new hires and the new SIC come up with. We have seen this movie many times before, and we're not expecting a startlingly different ending this time around.
For my money, Fr. Plekon gets closer to the truth.
Yes,
In Christ,
Cathy Tatusko
I think most of us would say that we have a long way to go before we'll be ready to rejoice.
You say that we should rejoice because new people in Syosset are seeking to unravel what's gone on for all of these years. Are they? It seems to me that they are becoming confused in their task and are seeking primarily to defend the current regime. Most of us won't be rejoicing until a regime change takes place.
You say that we should rejoice because eventually +Herman will step down in some fashion. Yes, and some day we'll all die, too. Does that mean we should just tread water until that day? Does it mean that if we wait for +Herman to vacate his role without our struggling together as a church to articulate what it is that our Metropolitan should embody and exemplify, we'll just take whoever gets put in his place by a Synod acting very much like the one that "elected" +Herman? Again, it’s too early to be rejoicing.
You say we should rejoice because God is merciful and is allowing us a "second" chance. Most of us would say that God has given us MULTIPLE chances to get this mess cleaned up over the past MANY YEARS, and we have blown every one of them. That doesn't mean we shouldn’t try, try again, but let's not kid ourselves. This is not "Attempt Number Two" at straightening out the OCA--and we're not all waiting with bated breath to see what the new hires and the new SIC come up with. We have seen this movie many times before, and we're not expecting a startlingly different ending this time around.
For my money, Fr. Plekon gets closer to the truth.
Yes,
In Christ,
Cathy Tatusko
#6.1
Cathryn M. Tatusko
on
2008-02-16 14:05
Are you for real?
The people in charge now are corrupt from the word go.
They paid over $100,000 for an accounting software program and have now ditched it because no one is competent to operate it. Herman disposes of everything when it no longer suits his needs. They have now purchased a Quickbooks program, which of course, has no integrity. How appropriate!
So look before you speak. Herman and company are still in charge. Nothing has changed! Get real!
The people in charge now are corrupt from the word go.
They paid over $100,000 for an accounting software program and have now ditched it because no one is competent to operate it. Herman disposes of everything when it no longer suits his needs. They have now purchased a Quickbooks program, which of course, has no integrity. How appropriate!
So look before you speak. Herman and company are still in charge. Nothing has changed! Get real!
#6.2
MP
on
2008-02-17 13:15
I know little about whether Quickbooks has been determined to be the best solution, but I do know this much:
I have used many accounting softwares and they are all relatively the same, but the more and more you spend on them the more bells and whistles they've got for the types of activities you do...
Some of them have more or less rigid internal control structures, none of the ones I've ever used have really used the software for internal controls with only a few exceptions...ie, the accounts receivable person or accounts payable persons only had access to receivables and payables processing. Truth be told, in a very small organization, there isn't enough segregation of duties to eliminate the possibility of fraud and there is little that can be done about it visavie software. The best policy is one of check signing by two people and the other is third party audits. Audits pave the way for honesty as perpetrators can expect to get caught possibly. Audits were abolished by the Holy Synod in 1999 and that resolution was repealed last year. The Synod allowed the financial collapse by this action and taking creditlines in a response to the graft afforded by negating audits. We are reminded of a letter from a Las Vegas fellow at this point.
Any accounting system can be circumvented. A bank in Europe lost over a billion dollars recently by an internal fraud, where the employee used bank money in an equity purchase or something and lost it all.
In addition to the initial cost of expensive accounting software, the annual fees for costlier softwares are extremely expensive. Many of them cost 40 grand, some cost 300 grand annually..those are just two quick examples I can backup with the software names on request. Quickbooks goes for about 500 bucks a year to upgrade to their most recent version or a grand for their top version and they have a payroll service as well that is affordable if you don't use ADP or another service. Quickbooks readily accepts bank downloads and reconciliation is a breeze. With Quickbooks, interim quarterly reporting is a certainty.
The truth is a business of 3 million a year really doesn't need much beyond Quickbooks and it only needs audits because of the nature of its business (thousands of donors and recent misuse of cash).
Advisors in the original purchase may have overstepped the requirements of the software as a reaction to the massive graft caused by RSK.
Frankly, if the CCA went to Quickbooks now and accepted audit costs as more important than licensing fees, hats off to those decisionmakers, not for the errors of yesterday, but for the wisdom of today. Quickbooks ain't a bad solution for a little 3 million dollar a year church.
My two cents worth....
I have used many accounting softwares and they are all relatively the same, but the more and more you spend on them the more bells and whistles they've got for the types of activities you do...
Some of them have more or less rigid internal control structures, none of the ones I've ever used have really used the software for internal controls with only a few exceptions...ie, the accounts receivable person or accounts payable persons only had access to receivables and payables processing. Truth be told, in a very small organization, there isn't enough segregation of duties to eliminate the possibility of fraud and there is little that can be done about it visavie software. The best policy is one of check signing by two people and the other is third party audits. Audits pave the way for honesty as perpetrators can expect to get caught possibly. Audits were abolished by the Holy Synod in 1999 and that resolution was repealed last year. The Synod allowed the financial collapse by this action and taking creditlines in a response to the graft afforded by negating audits. We are reminded of a letter from a Las Vegas fellow at this point.
Any accounting system can be circumvented. A bank in Europe lost over a billion dollars recently by an internal fraud, where the employee used bank money in an equity purchase or something and lost it all.
In addition to the initial cost of expensive accounting software, the annual fees for costlier softwares are extremely expensive. Many of them cost 40 grand, some cost 300 grand annually..those are just two quick examples I can backup with the software names on request. Quickbooks goes for about 500 bucks a year to upgrade to their most recent version or a grand for their top version and they have a payroll service as well that is affordable if you don't use ADP or another service. Quickbooks readily accepts bank downloads and reconciliation is a breeze. With Quickbooks, interim quarterly reporting is a certainty.
The truth is a business of 3 million a year really doesn't need much beyond Quickbooks and it only needs audits because of the nature of its business (thousands of donors and recent misuse of cash).
Advisors in the original purchase may have overstepped the requirements of the software as a reaction to the massive graft caused by RSK.
Frankly, if the CCA went to Quickbooks now and accepted audit costs as more important than licensing fees, hats off to those decisionmakers, not for the errors of yesterday, but for the wisdom of today. Quickbooks ain't a bad solution for a little 3 million dollar a year church.
My two cents worth....
#6.2.1
Daniel E. Fall
on
2008-02-17 21:43
Why did they spend $100,000 last year for a Blackbaud System (the Cadillac of Accounting Software) and then go to QuickBooks (a Chevy)? The truth is they bought the Blackbaud System without anyone to operate it. Now Herman paid $500,000 for a report that no one has seen, $??????? for accountant and legal fees, A Secretary who got $100,000 package to leave the country and so much more that we do not even know about. And you say that ain't so bad? I'd like to take a ride on your space ship.
#6.2.1.1
MP
on
2008-02-18 14:05
You are flat out wrong.
It isn't about competance with Fr. Tassos, nor with me. He and I have spoke and I have the utmost confidence in him based on his comments and dialogue. He has made firm commitments to delivering [timely] interim financial statements, which was long overdue from the cca..
And I drive a Chevy, not a spaceship.
And I always sign my name.
The one thing you might be right about is lost in your failure to think critically and objectively. The Blackbaud decision was probably not a good decision; move past it. It was probably made as a knee jerk reaction to the graft of millions. It was probably made under the advise of expensive attorneys to a Bishop who knew nothing about internal controls. The decision probably didn't include an audit committee.
Typically a competant board makes the decision to allow capital purchases of costly software in a budgeting cycle. If you want to be objective, you'd be asking the decision makers if they made the decision in a budget cycle, if they included the audit committee in that decision to go with Blackbaud and whether anyone on the audit committee was competant to make that decision rather than attacking the users of the software.
Part of the sad fact is that we were told about the go with Blackbaud decision, but not told about going with Quickbooks instead, leaving you and me to make foolish assumptions and foolish comments about the reasons.
The only difference between you and me MP is that I have been around enough accounting stuff to venture a slightly better educated guess, so get past what may seem offensive to the realities and stop blaming the users and leave the spaceship stuff for NASA and the movies.
I apologize as your brother in Christ that the rumor mill is delivering the message forcing you to make these assumptions.
It isn't about competance with Fr. Tassos, nor with me. He and I have spoke and I have the utmost confidence in him based on his comments and dialogue. He has made firm commitments to delivering [timely] interim financial statements, which was long overdue from the cca..
And I drive a Chevy, not a spaceship.
And I always sign my name.
The one thing you might be right about is lost in your failure to think critically and objectively. The Blackbaud decision was probably not a good decision; move past it. It was probably made as a knee jerk reaction to the graft of millions. It was probably made under the advise of expensive attorneys to a Bishop who knew nothing about internal controls. The decision probably didn't include an audit committee.
Typically a competant board makes the decision to allow capital purchases of costly software in a budgeting cycle. If you want to be objective, you'd be asking the decision makers if they made the decision in a budget cycle, if they included the audit committee in that decision to go with Blackbaud and whether anyone on the audit committee was competant to make that decision rather than attacking the users of the software.
Part of the sad fact is that we were told about the go with Blackbaud decision, but not told about going with Quickbooks instead, leaving you and me to make foolish assumptions and foolish comments about the reasons.
The only difference between you and me MP is that I have been around enough accounting stuff to venture a slightly better educated guess, so get past what may seem offensive to the realities and stop blaming the users and leave the spaceship stuff for NASA and the movies.
I apologize as your brother in Christ that the rumor mill is delivering the message forcing you to make these assumptions.
#6.2.1.1.1
Daniel E. Fall
on
2008-02-18 21:13
Daniel - Blame not the lawyers, but the audit firm, whom I understand recommended, sold, installed, and provided training for the new accounting system (and probably made a good buck doing so). Quickbooks Enterprise (costs $1500) could probably fill the bill.
And another comment I'd certainly echo: we'd better be very carefull choosing our auditors at the next AAC (not to mention our MC reps)
And another comment I'd certainly echo: we'd better be very carefull choosing our auditors at the next AAC (not to mention our MC reps)
#6.2.1.1.1.1
Michael Strelka, CPA
on
2008-02-20 11:38
My two-cents' worth:
Blackbaud is one of a few software packages designed for nonprofits, including churches. It does a great job and has all the bells and whistles one could want--it is just very expensive.
Quickbooks is an extremely reasonable accounting package that is designed to work primarily for for profit entities. However, it can also be used by nonprofits for basic accounting functions (no bells and whistles).
I agree with Daniel Fall and our two resident CPAs: This not scandal fodder and can be chalked up to honest error--perhaps an unintended consequence of the scandal itself.
Blackbaud is one of a few software packages designed for nonprofits, including churches. It does a great job and has all the bells and whistles one could want--it is just very expensive.
Quickbooks is an extremely reasonable accounting package that is designed to work primarily for for profit entities. However, it can also be used by nonprofits for basic accounting functions (no bells and whistles).
I agree with Daniel Fall and our two resident CPAs: This not scandal fodder and can be chalked up to honest error--perhaps an unintended consequence of the scandal itself.
#6.2.1.1.1.1.1
Carl
on
2008-02-20 13:28
The software can (used properly) enhance internal control, but it will not in and of itself provide internal control. That is, as any college accounting student can tell you, why the first step in evaluating internal control is to evaluate the senior management/executives of the organization. You can have a completely manual system and still have excellent internal control.
Fr. Michael Tassos, the current treasurer, is assuredly not one of the Metropolitan's "lackeys". He is a licensed CPA, has served in companies regulated by the Securities and Exchange Commission, and comes from the Antiochian Archdiocese. My suspicion is he is not somehow "beholden" to the Metropolitan for his livelihood - he has quite marketable skills and a wealth of experience.
If the OCA can find a candidate for secretary of similar character, experience, and professionalism as they did in finding a Treasurer, then my hope for the OCA springs eternal.
Martin D. Watt, CPA
Fr. Michael Tassos, the current treasurer, is assuredly not one of the Metropolitan's "lackeys". He is a licensed CPA, has served in companies regulated by the Securities and Exchange Commission, and comes from the Antiochian Archdiocese. My suspicion is he is not somehow "beholden" to the Metropolitan for his livelihood - he has quite marketable skills and a wealth of experience.
If the OCA can find a candidate for secretary of similar character, experience, and professionalism as they did in finding a Treasurer, then my hope for the OCA springs eternal.
Martin D. Watt, CPA
#6.2.2
Marty Watt
on
2008-02-18 12:04
This lengthy proposal is but one more example of the failure to recognize the ecclesiological dimension and scope of the mess in the OCA. That this is a hierarchical church does not negate that it is a conciliar church. That the bishops are the chief pastors does not mean they are above the church's tradition, its eucharistic ecclesiology or the laws of our society. The history of the church has many instances when bishops were removed or removed themselves from office. The most recent & relevant are note by George Kosar in his Brandeis Univ. dissertation on the evolution, the deliberations and actions and the consequences of the Moscow Council of 1917-18. In many dioceses of the Russian church, bishops appointed through the influence of Rasputin were asked by assemblies to retire or resign.
Granted this is both a different place and time, a different set of historical circumstances, the OCA was deliberately shaped in its ststute by the vision and decisions of this Council. The hierarchical structure and authority of the church are not absolute nor are they ends in themselves. The bishop is set apart from the community for the service of the community and the Lord. This realization of the church's concilar nature, emphasized by the work of Fr Nicolas Afanasiev, is a most different understanding than that of the so-called "Brum doctrine" or of the practice of a number of hierarchs of various jurisdictions in recent years, the extreme being that obedience to the hierarch is to be absolute, total, unquestionin as if to Christ--a most serious confusion of Christ with a bishop. The recent reflection of the words and example of St Cyprian of Carthage were also most relevant to the shape of our ecclesiology.
While the author of this reflection admits it is most likably impossible to implement, it should be noted that within it is the belief that the facts of the scandal not only can be but should be concealed, most likely "for the good of the church" and to preserve the status & respect due the hierarchy.
I think we are often too meshed up in feelings, loyalities, memories, even dreams not to mention all the details of the scandal thus far known to recognize that what is suggested in the proposal is neither authentically churchly, Christian or even ethical. While presented intelligently, with care, it is nevertheless the same point of view heard in many, many comments, the main feature of which is that appearances and reputation and status must be preserved at all costs. The recent tragic history of our Roman Catholic brethren seems not to be remembered or learned from. Many hierarchs and clergy there for decades sought to conceal the scandal of abuse "for the good of the church." to quote a dear friend, we need not worry about saving the church. Christ, the Spirit and the Fath rather save us through the church. But we are part of the economy of salvation.
Granted this is both a different place and time, a different set of historical circumstances, the OCA was deliberately shaped in its ststute by the vision and decisions of this Council. The hierarchical structure and authority of the church are not absolute nor are they ends in themselves. The bishop is set apart from the community for the service of the community and the Lord. This realization of the church's concilar nature, emphasized by the work of Fr Nicolas Afanasiev, is a most different understanding than that of the so-called "Brum doctrine" or of the practice of a number of hierarchs of various jurisdictions in recent years, the extreme being that obedience to the hierarch is to be absolute, total, unquestionin as if to Christ--a most serious confusion of Christ with a bishop. The recent reflection of the words and example of St Cyprian of Carthage were also most relevant to the shape of our ecclesiology.
While the author of this reflection admits it is most likably impossible to implement, it should be noted that within it is the belief that the facts of the scandal not only can be but should be concealed, most likely "for the good of the church" and to preserve the status & respect due the hierarchy.
I think we are often too meshed up in feelings, loyalities, memories, even dreams not to mention all the details of the scandal thus far known to recognize that what is suggested in the proposal is neither authentically churchly, Christian or even ethical. While presented intelligently, with care, it is nevertheless the same point of view heard in many, many comments, the main feature of which is that appearances and reputation and status must be preserved at all costs. The recent tragic history of our Roman Catholic brethren seems not to be remembered or learned from. Many hierarchs and clergy there for decades sought to conceal the scandal of abuse "for the good of the church." to quote a dear friend, we need not worry about saving the church. Christ, the Spirit and the Fath rather save us through the church. But we are part of the economy of salvation.
#7
Fr Michael Plekon
on
2008-02-16 09:13
Thank you Fr. Michael for your informative posting. When I read Mr. Estabrooks’s reflection I could not help but wonder why the author spent so much effort on his lengthy proposal while at the end he admits that it is almost impossible to implement! One must also wonder how his proposal will get the OCA out of its mess. Clearly we have to start with a new slate.
Michel Michail
Michel Michail
#7.1
Michel Michail
on
2008-02-16 15:42
Dear Father, Thank You So Very Much for your Reflection Comments and Sincere Heartfelt Discussion, finally Someone has made some Sense to me. I Believe so much of what you wrote its difficult for me to express.
If each of us would just quietly sit and pray about what you stated its makes a lot of sense. I do think that this whole culture of friendships, memories, Godparent verses Kum Kuma, cousin.... goes on and on and extents so deeply into the root of the problem that we are focused on not hurting or disrupting those ties.
But That is a part of the Challenge that God is allowing us to see? What's important? the disturbance of our nature as human beings or our security net in ourselves, or Christ's teachings? We really know the answer is the only real choice that we have and that's to follow Christ and the Truth and if we don't we really can't call ourselves Christians can we. If we could each reflect upon or last day on this earth and correcting our wrongs we would be taken to our repentence. Why can't we do it now, in this very moment instead of then.
Father Thank you, I too believe that the Church is the Faith and not the works of Human Beings.. The Church will be Stronger Blessed By God Once this is Opened Up In Truth, Dignity and Respect of Love..... But until then, we will continue to suffer I'm afraid...
If each of us would just quietly sit and pray about what you stated its makes a lot of sense. I do think that this whole culture of friendships, memories, Godparent verses Kum Kuma, cousin.... goes on and on and extents so deeply into the root of the problem that we are focused on not hurting or disrupting those ties.
But That is a part of the Challenge that God is allowing us to see? What's important? the disturbance of our nature as human beings or our security net in ourselves, or Christ's teachings? We really know the answer is the only real choice that we have and that's to follow Christ and the Truth and if we don't we really can't call ourselves Christians can we. If we could each reflect upon or last day on this earth and correcting our wrongs we would be taken to our repentence. Why can't we do it now, in this very moment instead of then.
Father Thank you, I too believe that the Church is the Faith and not the works of Human Beings.. The Church will be Stronger Blessed By God Once this is Opened Up In Truth, Dignity and Respect of Love..... But until then, we will continue to suffer I'm afraid...
#7.2
Anonymous
on
2008-02-17 14:23
OK, for starters, I'd hate to be in one of Dr. Eastbrooks' classes, if he takes that many words to say so little (sorry I dont mean to be mean, but its true, you have to learn to communicate).
Second, his perspective is that this is a money issue. NO! This is a moral issue. It is about bad morals, and horrible power, and cowardice, and ignoring the pain of all of us. We have been devoured by wolves, and some of our bishops are wolves.
The other bishops watch in silence, and Dr. Eastbrooks says our bishops " need a new beginning, and a way out of the impasse caused by the inheritance of matters which were not of their own doing, at least initially. They too need a reprieve from decisions (and non-decisions) made in regard to them " WHAT? They are bishops! Doesnt Hermie always remind us of his "power"? If they need a "reprieve" or whatever from making decisions, so be it. Get OUT! But don't whine to us who have been abused.
And he suggests that we pay off Bettie Kondratick! How bout she pays us off the balance of what her family got from Mr. Kondratick!
No Dr. Eastbrooks, your suggestsions are all wrong. You just don't understand. We cannot start over without cleaning house. It is too rotten. The easy way out is too dangerous.
Eddie K.
Second, his perspective is that this is a money issue. NO! This is a moral issue. It is about bad morals, and horrible power, and cowardice, and ignoring the pain of all of us. We have been devoured by wolves, and some of our bishops are wolves.
The other bishops watch in silence, and Dr. Eastbrooks says our bishops " need a new beginning, and a way out of the impasse caused by the inheritance of matters which were not of their own doing, at least initially. They too need a reprieve from decisions (and non-decisions) made in regard to them " WHAT? They are bishops! Doesnt Hermie always remind us of his "power"? If they need a "reprieve" or whatever from making decisions, so be it. Get OUT! But don't whine to us who have been abused.
And he suggests that we pay off Bettie Kondratick! How bout she pays us off the balance of what her family got from Mr. Kondratick!
No Dr. Eastbrooks, your suggestsions are all wrong. You just don't understand. We cannot start over without cleaning house. It is too rotten. The easy way out is too dangerous.
Eddie K.
#8
Eddie Kayeti
on
2008-02-16 12:12
perusing Dr. Estabrooks many, many thoughts on the matter of the corruption of the Holy Synod of the OCA, one comes to the "Final Note" with the impression that his naivete is refreshing........with the exception of the desire to see MH removed
#8.1
Guileless
on
2008-02-16 19:15
Thank you, Porf. Estabrooks,
I am very pleased you are adding to the dialogue, as did Prof. Meyendorff. These are more of the kind of discussions we very much need to move us forward to healing and wholeness!
I don't discredit any courageous voice, which includes many of us bloggers on this web site at this point from speaking up about the current mess in the OCA.
I was actually with you on your suggestions for most of what you said, until the very end when you became cynical to thinking anything would change.
However, larger voices, such as yours and Prof. Meyendorff's, are starting to discuss this in public and giving the OCA hope that there may be a way out of this mess.
I agree with Daniel Fall, however, that the SIC must come out with their report BEFORE the AAC. It would be foolish to wait longer and I believe this would create the unnecessary chaos at the AAC that he is talking about.
If +Herman would just stay at St. Tikhons, instead of driving back and forth to Syosset, (i.e., retire) this would solve many trust problems. Just become an auxillary to +Tikhon there and be done and spend your last years in prayer and repentance at St. Tikhon's, a place where you seem to stay anyway!
There are workable solutions.
We continue to dialogue.
This is good.
Patty Schellbach
I am very pleased you are adding to the dialogue, as did Prof. Meyendorff. These are more of the kind of discussions we very much need to move us forward to healing and wholeness!
I don't discredit any courageous voice, which includes many of us bloggers on this web site at this point from speaking up about the current mess in the OCA.
I was actually with you on your suggestions for most of what you said, until the very end when you became cynical to thinking anything would change.
However, larger voices, such as yours and Prof. Meyendorff's, are starting to discuss this in public and giving the OCA hope that there may be a way out of this mess.
I agree with Daniel Fall, however, that the SIC must come out with their report BEFORE the AAC. It would be foolish to wait longer and I believe this would create the unnecessary chaos at the AAC that he is talking about.
If +Herman would just stay at St. Tikhons, instead of driving back and forth to Syosset, (i.e., retire) this would solve many trust problems. Just become an auxillary to +Tikhon there and be done and spend your last years in prayer and repentance at St. Tikhon's, a place where you seem to stay anyway!
There are workable solutions.
We continue to dialogue.
This is good.
Patty Schellbach
#9
Patty Schellbach
on
2008-02-16 20:19
Well, let's see. We'll all just forget about the missing money, then everything will be fine. After all, it must be the fault of the laity for demanding to know how so much money disappeared that is causing so much trouble in the church. There's a name for that - embezzlement. And, oh, by the way, that's illegal - at least in the secular world. And then we'll shut down this web site - or at least readjust it in some way. I have such a problem with this long, wordy, proposal. Mostly it's that we just simply ignore all that missing money and move on. I made donations. Those donations were stolen. I have a big problem with that, and I am still not convinced that future donated funds will not be embezzled. After all, if money is stolen again, will we get the same proposal? Just forget about it?
#10
Not forgetting about it
on
2008-02-17 19:44
Full disclosure is the only answer. Withholding of Assessments should continue. The Synod needs to be replaced with new bishops. The present slate of bishops have lost the war. We are not the Roman Catholic Church with its understanding of a hierarchial church. The Brum doctrine is a false doctrine, it is not Orthodox. The bishops and clergy do not "own" the church--it belongs to Christ. The laity, clergy and bishops are responsible to administer the church and all are equal and concillar. The faithful and many of the clergy do not trust the present slate of bishops to run the church. Money has been stolen by the central administration of the church. Why it was stolen has not been revealed and the Synod of Bishops do not want to fully disclose the truth, and some do not know what the truth is. For years the central administration has misused funds. Kondratick and Metropolitan Theodosius and others know the truth and they aren't talking. Why hasn't criminal charges been brought forth? If I could go to another Orthodox parish in another diocese, I would go. Statutory rapist are tonsured and it takes awhile for the Metropolitan to force the bishop to "undo" the tonsured reader. The church should be protecting the children of the parish. Persons convicted of sexual abuse must register with the local police station and their residences have to be so many feet away from schools, etc. What kind of protection is the church providing to their children. It seems to me, that convicted sexual abuses should only be allowed to "commune and participate at a monastery" not a local parish in order to protect the children. The scandal is more than "money" it is about the immorality that existed and/or existing.
#11
anonymous
on
2008-02-18 08:55
Hurray for Quickbooks!
Quickbooks with an independent 3rd party auditor sounds like a solution for the OCA's books.
We all need to take our responsibilities more seriously. I heard that some colleges are offering courses for church finance because of the demand for transparent accounting methods.
Our problem in the OCA isn't just our own problem. Many other churches have financial scandals.
I am confused about the proposals. It sounds like the AAC will be a major drain and cause more problems. Here is a proposal, let us listen to the Gospel.
I became Orthodox not because of the pretty pictures nor the colorful vestments, but because of the message of God's forgiveness that we experience through Christ's co-suffering compassion.
We all need to be careful not to forget the basic fundemental of Christ's co-suffering compassion.
Let us, not forget!
Quickbooks with an independent 3rd party auditor sounds like a solution for the OCA's books.
We all need to take our responsibilities more seriously. I heard that some colleges are offering courses for church finance because of the demand for transparent accounting methods.
Our problem in the OCA isn't just our own problem. Many other churches have financial scandals.
I am confused about the proposals. It sounds like the AAC will be a major drain and cause more problems. Here is a proposal, let us listen to the Gospel.
I became Orthodox not because of the pretty pictures nor the colorful vestments, but because of the message of God's forgiveness that we experience through Christ's co-suffering compassion.
We all need to be careful not to forget the basic fundemental of Christ's co-suffering compassion.
Let us, not forget!
#12
Anonymous
on
2008-02-18 12:55
The author does not allow comments to this entry
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