Monday, May 15. 2006
Good News and Bad News
The inability to tell the truth accurately and openly is a serious issue as we approach the release of the Proskauer Rose report and the audits. What can be done to encourage veracity at all levels in the OCA?
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I am glad that OC4A is bringing the issue of official membership of the OCA to be discussed and honestly debated.
Actually, HB +Herman stated in a interview on OCTV http://www.octelevision.net/archives.htm that the exact members of the Orthodox Church in America are unknown. He states that there are more than six hundred parishes with more than one million communicants. The interview is 6 minutes long. Take a look!
Will the Orthodox Church in America continue to slouch toward insignificance, or as a small entity, will it be that little leaven that will enliven the whole lump? (Galatians 5:9)
Blessed is God Who makes all things new!
Dyak
Actually, HB +Herman stated in a interview on OCTV http://www.octelevision.net/archives.htm that the exact members of the Orthodox Church in America are unknown. He states that there are more than six hundred parishes with more than one million communicants. The interview is 6 minutes long. Take a look!
Will the Orthodox Church in America continue to slouch toward insignificance, or as a small entity, will it be that little leaven that will enliven the whole lump? (Galatians 5:9)
Blessed is God Who makes all things new!
Dyak
After your well put together editorial, this is disappointing. It seems as though your hatred for Fr. Kondratick has gotten the best of you. At this point I don't think there is an orthodox christian on this planet that doesn't know what is going on. Aren't you splitting hairs at this point?
#2
Richard Woods
on
2006-05-15 07:34
Dear Richard,
I am sorry to disappoint. However, two of the points you make require clarification.
First, I do not hate Fr. Kondratick. The issues raised on this site have never been personal, nor about personalities. I suggest you read the first line of the second citation more closely. The "good news" to which I refer is not Fr. Kondratick's "release" – but to the fact that something about the scandal was mentioned at all in the pages of The Orthodox Church newspaper.
Secondly, you are sadly mistaken in assuming that "there is not an Orthodox Christian on this planet who does not know what is going on". There are many in my own OCA parish who were shocked to hear on Sunday, in a report from our deanery meeting by a lay representative, that a) money was missing in the OCA and b) there was an investigation and c) Fr. Kondratick was no longer in charge.
I have learned from emails from across the nation that there are many parishes where the priests have never uttered a word about any of this; or actively "discouraged" parishoners from visiting this website; and that the first "news" they have heard about it is from this month's Church newspaper article and editorial. In the light of this, the omission of facts in an attempt to distort the context of the event, in my opinion, is more than "splitting hairs."
With all best wishes,
Mark
I am sorry to disappoint. However, two of the points you make require clarification.
First, I do not hate Fr. Kondratick. The issues raised on this site have never been personal, nor about personalities. I suggest you read the first line of the second citation more closely. The "good news" to which I refer is not Fr. Kondratick's "release" – but to the fact that something about the scandal was mentioned at all in the pages of The Orthodox Church newspaper.
Secondly, you are sadly mistaken in assuming that "there is not an Orthodox Christian on this planet who does not know what is going on". There are many in my own OCA parish who were shocked to hear on Sunday, in a report from our deanery meeting by a lay representative, that a) money was missing in the OCA and b) there was an investigation and c) Fr. Kondratick was no longer in charge.
I have learned from emails from across the nation that there are many parishes where the priests have never uttered a word about any of this; or actively "discouraged" parishoners from visiting this website; and that the first "news" they have heard about it is from this month's Church newspaper article and editorial. In the light of this, the omission of facts in an attempt to distort the context of the event, in my opinion, is more than "splitting hairs."
With all best wishes,
Mark
#2.1
Editor
on
2006-05-15 10:16
OK, Mr Stokoe, maybe the term "hate" was taken a bit out of context. There is no doubt you dislike the man and I sure would like to know the reason.
The fact that the Orthodox Church Newspaper, chose not to publish an article with the same tone of voice you or this website does is wrong? The issues on this website were never personal or about personalities? This website is so “anti-Fr Kondratick” that it’s become funny. You’re wrong Mr Stokoe, the issues on this website are very personal and are about personalities. You posting letters from Bishops to the Metropolitan and vice versa are PERSONAL. The “pot shots” taken at the Metropolitan, the Bishops and Fr Kondratick are of your own doing. No one elses!!
Not everyone views Fr Kondratick as what he has been portrayed on this website. People have already placed all the blame on him, convicted and put him in prison, question his credibility, talk about him with a total lack of respect and in essence, are spitting on him as Jesus was while he walked to his crucifixion. This man has done more for the church in his 30 years than any of us will do in our lifetime.
What’s wrong with someone putting out some the accomplishments of Fr Kondratick, is that against the law? No, that’s not it Mike, it doesn’t pass the “veracity” test!!
What's wrong with a priest who chooses not to discuss this with their parishoners? Maybe that priest(s) doesn’t want to be a part of something that’s totally out of his control nor let his parishioners partake of all this ridicule and finger-pointing. Any priest can choose not to tell his parish; who knows, maybe he’s afraid of the retribution he’ll get in the end!!
As for those parishes where the priest "actively" discourages folks from reading this website. The best thing about this country is that people are free to do what they choose. IF they have an internet connection; no one, NO ONE is stopping them from viewing your website. I don't want to hear about a priest who actively discourages against it. People have their own minds. That's ridiculous!
You also say that parishoners in YOUR own church don't know about this? To think that you are involved up to your neck in this website, YOU never informed YOUR parish of this "scandal?"
The fact that the Orthodox Church Newspaper, chose not to publish an article with the same tone of voice you or this website does is wrong? The issues on this website were never personal or about personalities? This website is so “anti-Fr Kondratick” that it’s become funny. You’re wrong Mr Stokoe, the issues on this website are very personal and are about personalities. You posting letters from Bishops to the Metropolitan and vice versa are PERSONAL. The “pot shots” taken at the Metropolitan, the Bishops and Fr Kondratick are of your own doing. No one elses!!
Not everyone views Fr Kondratick as what he has been portrayed on this website. People have already placed all the blame on him, convicted and put him in prison, question his credibility, talk about him with a total lack of respect and in essence, are spitting on him as Jesus was while he walked to his crucifixion. This man has done more for the church in his 30 years than any of us will do in our lifetime.
What’s wrong with someone putting out some the accomplishments of Fr Kondratick, is that against the law? No, that’s not it Mike, it doesn’t pass the “veracity” test!!
What's wrong with a priest who chooses not to discuss this with their parishoners? Maybe that priest(s) doesn’t want to be a part of something that’s totally out of his control nor let his parishioners partake of all this ridicule and finger-pointing. Any priest can choose not to tell his parish; who knows, maybe he’s afraid of the retribution he’ll get in the end!!
As for those parishes where the priest "actively" discourages folks from reading this website. The best thing about this country is that people are free to do what they choose. IF they have an internet connection; no one, NO ONE is stopping them from viewing your website. I don't want to hear about a priest who actively discourages against it. People have their own minds. That's ridiculous!
You also say that parishoners in YOUR own church don't know about this? To think that you are involved up to your neck in this website, YOU never informed YOUR parish of this "scandal?"
#2.2
Michael Livosky
on
2006-05-15 11:41
We have been told "WE ARE THE TRUE CHRISTIAN CHURCH" but we can't tell the truth!! This is not "HATE" we want the truth so that we can rebuild, what is left. When I first quetioned the total membership it was truly funny to see 1,000,500, then 400,000, now it is less than 30,000.
Let us wait another three weeks for the results from this investigation. Many people following this can see if it truly was a sincere effort. As someone stated this is not rocket science.
I hope we won't have to define what "is-is" !
Let us wait another three weeks for the results from this investigation. Many people following this can see if it truly was a sincere effort. As someone stated this is not rocket science.
I hope we won't have to define what "is-is" !
I agree with Mark. I have spoken to many Orthodox Christians who dont have a clue about what is going on. I suppose this is an effort of damage control by clergy who wont discuss the situation openly with the laity. This is sad. Every day this goes on, the Body of Christ suffers. No wonder the Gospel teachings we receive from our leaders seems to lack power and substance. If there is sin in the highest levels of the Church, it is hard to see how the Holy Spirit can function to convict men's souls and add to our numbers.
#2.4
Rich
on
2006-05-16 07:31
I give up! My aging fingers aren't cooperating, and my PC is too responsive!
Lots of money, lots of hot air, and no proof of wrong-doing.
I suppose one could have written in "The Orthodox Church" While charges of wrong-doing by Father have been bruited everywhere, especially on a website in the Midwest Diocese, and lots of money and many manhours have been expended, neither Father Bob (cooperating with everybody) nor a Jewish Law firm (expensive, too!) or "outside" auditors" (expensive) have come up with anything except another Archpriests's horrible book-keeping, thus leaving FAther's steriling and (apparently) enviable record unspotted."
+B.T.
Lots of money, lots of hot air, and no proof of wrong-doing.
I suppose one could have written in "The Orthodox Church" While charges of wrong-doing by Father have been bruited everywhere, especially on a website in the Midwest Diocese, and lots of money and many manhours have been expended, neither Father Bob (cooperating with everybody) nor a Jewish Law firm (expensive, too!) or "outside" auditors" (expensive) have come up with anything except another Archpriests's horrible book-keeping, thus leaving FAther's steriling and (apparently) enviable record unspotted."
+B.T.
#2.5
Bishop Tikhon
on
2006-05-16 22:18
What is that remark about the "Jewish law firm" supposed to convey, especially with the related phrase about the cost? Haven't we had enough of this veiled anti-Semitism? I am truly shocked that you would even think to raise this issue.
#2.5.1
Maria Dering
on
2006-05-18 14:24
The simple truth is that lies, misrepresentation, exaggeration all lead to doubt and mistrust. Is it okay to lie or is it still a sin?
#3
unknown
on
2006-05-15 07:37
In regards to the claimed OCA membership figure being a fabrication, how do we know that all the other Christian Church figures are not also "fabrications"? The definition of membership in a church can vary widely. How are we to take this figure for example:
"Progressive National Baptist Convention, Inc., 2,500,000 members, no increase or decrease reported."
I don't have any idea at all what the Progressive National Baptist Convention is, let alone how they count their members. Is it pledge card signers, the summation of Sunday headcounts, the people on their mail lists or what?
The same can be said for our various Orthodox Churchs in North America. How the Greek, OCA, ROCOR, Antiochean and all the other archdiocese count members is a very hazy and ill defined concept. There are 2 to 6 million Orthodox in North America at present depending on what you read, so let's just say that there are "a few million". The GOOD NEWS is that whatever the number is, it is growing rapidly with converts and former atheists (like me) coming to the Church. May it be blessed!
Stu Harris
"Progressive National Baptist Convention, Inc., 2,500,000 members, no increase or decrease reported."
I don't have any idea at all what the Progressive National Baptist Convention is, let alone how they count their members. Is it pledge card signers, the summation of Sunday headcounts, the people on their mail lists or what?
The same can be said for our various Orthodox Churchs in North America. How the Greek, OCA, ROCOR, Antiochean and all the other archdiocese count members is a very hazy and ill defined concept. There are 2 to 6 million Orthodox in North America at present depending on what you read, so let's just say that there are "a few million". The GOOD NEWS is that whatever the number is, it is growing rapidly with converts and former atheists (like me) coming to the Church. May it be blessed!
Stu Harris
#4
Stu Harris
on
2006-05-15 11:26
Stu,we should not be worried about any other DENOMINATION or their method of reporting. Two wrongs don't make a right.
To make this right going forward, all priest shall be held accountable for truthful reporting.
LET'S ELIMINATE THE BUDDY SYSTEM !!
To make this right going forward, all priest shall be held accountable for truthful reporting.
LET'S ELIMINATE THE BUDDY SYSTEM !!
The subject of accurate Orthodox Church membership figures has been discussed and debated for a long time. It is a hot potato that hierarchs, clergy, and lay leadership have been unable to deal with since it evokes emotional reactions that leads to nonproductive polemical debates.
On one hand, you have the parish priest and his parish council who do not want to pay assessments for the nonactive and /or nominal members of the parish. On the other hand, you have the ethnic parishes, ethnic dioceses, and the ethnic jurisdictions
whose leadership are very sensitive and defensive about how their
churches are being publicly perceived as they themselves are struggling with self-denial and realism about their low active membership versus their cultural festival events, weddings, baptisms, and Paschas which turns out their own extended cultural communities in massive numbers.
While I personally would like to see more accuracy in membership figures of the OCA, I reluctantly have conceded that it is a goal that has to be pursued over time. The Dioceses of Alaska and Canada, the ethnic dioceses and the Exarchate of Mexico pose special problems and sensitivities that
are a cross to bear for their respective hierarchs, clergy and lay leadership.
The truth is that neither Syosset or the All American Council or the Holy Synod
are simply not able to resolve this problem quickly and easily. However, we are making progress with more accurate figures for AAC reports. We must not fall into despair and give up trying to improve our demographical data, but we must also be careful not to provoke unproductive emotional debates that will only divide people.
The Church is called to unite not divide the Body of Christ in order to promote healing and wholeness of its members.
By God's Grace and Mercy we will overcome our flaws and weaknesses
with our demographical data and our pride that is tied with them, in the fullness of time.
Christ is Risen!
On one hand, you have the parish priest and his parish council who do not want to pay assessments for the nonactive and /or nominal members of the parish. On the other hand, you have the ethnic parishes, ethnic dioceses, and the ethnic jurisdictions
whose leadership are very sensitive and defensive about how their
churches are being publicly perceived as they themselves are struggling with self-denial and realism about their low active membership versus their cultural festival events, weddings, baptisms, and Paschas which turns out their own extended cultural communities in massive numbers.
While I personally would like to see more accuracy in membership figures of the OCA, I reluctantly have conceded that it is a goal that has to be pursued over time. The Dioceses of Alaska and Canada, the ethnic dioceses and the Exarchate of Mexico pose special problems and sensitivities that
are a cross to bear for their respective hierarchs, clergy and lay leadership.
The truth is that neither Syosset or the All American Council or the Holy Synod
are simply not able to resolve this problem quickly and easily. However, we are making progress with more accurate figures for AAC reports. We must not fall into despair and give up trying to improve our demographical data, but we must also be careful not to provoke unproductive emotional debates that will only divide people.
The Church is called to unite not divide the Body of Christ in order to promote healing and wholeness of its members.
By God's Grace and Mercy we will overcome our flaws and weaknesses
with our demographical data and our pride that is tied with them, in the fullness of time.
Christ is Risen!
#5
An Unworthy Churchman from the OCA
on
2006-05-15 15:56
Dear Unworthy:
As I suggested to an earlier reader, I encourage you to go back and read the article again. The actual number of members in the OCA, or Orthodoxy in North America, however defined, was never the point of the article. The purpose of the citation was to put in focus the OCA's problem when it comes to numbers - informing the NCC of 6% growth even as it reported 6% decline to the AAC. Such a event can hardly be an "accident". One can only hope that such mendacity is a thing of the past, and that future reports from the OCA will be more accurate. I am sorry if I did not make this point more clear.
Mark
As I suggested to an earlier reader, I encourage you to go back and read the article again. The actual number of members in the OCA, or Orthodoxy in North America, however defined, was never the point of the article. The purpose of the citation was to put in focus the OCA's problem when it comes to numbers - informing the NCC of 6% growth even as it reported 6% decline to the AAC. Such a event can hardly be an "accident". One can only hope that such mendacity is a thing of the past, and that future reports from the OCA will be more accurate. I am sorry if I did not make this point more clear.
Mark
#5.1
Editor
on
2006-05-15 19:11
It's called "spin" and the enablers at Sysosset cannot help but continue being doctors of spin. That is all they know.
This problem will not be solved until we have had a full administration change and institute better methods of governance. Such is the nature of bureacracies of any kind. Any administration left to its own devices for too long becomes corrupt, secretive and prone to spin even the most mundane of information. Such is the nature of the fallen world within which we live.
Our system of governance needs an overhaul. Giving people tenured, life appointments is counterproductive to the need to temper the effects of sin upon those given power for too long... as we are witnessing in living color. The American Founding Fathers perhaps had it more right than we are willing to admit with regard to checks and balances (on sin and its effects on the common good).
This problem will not be solved until we have had a full administration change and institute better methods of governance. Such is the nature of bureacracies of any kind. Any administration left to its own devices for too long becomes corrupt, secretive and prone to spin even the most mundane of information. Such is the nature of the fallen world within which we live.
Our system of governance needs an overhaul. Giving people tenured, life appointments is counterproductive to the need to temper the effects of sin upon those given power for too long... as we are witnessing in living color. The American Founding Fathers perhaps had it more right than we are willing to admit with regard to checks and balances (on sin and its effects on the common good).
#5.1.1
Name Withheld by Request
on
2006-05-16 16:38
I see two topics. First, whether the OCA is honest and forthright in regards to releasing Fr. Kondratick and second regarding church membership.
To the first part, I'm going to agree with another poster and say I think you have stepped past the boundaries here Mark. Fr. Kondratick did good things for the church. The church would be irresponsible and not pc to say anything different about him in a public forum unless he is convicted of a crime. Beyond pc, if the national church starts saying bad stuff about him, its also slander or libel, so I think you've forgotten not only pc, but also lc. I think it would be extremely irresponsible to say bad about him, and I'm glad it didn't.
To the second point. The only way the church will ever become honest about its membership is if it has paying and non-paying members, or member classes. It isn't always fathomable for every person to pay. The national church and the AACs need to recognize and address this issue. There are people that cannot afford to pay in certain years. The national church would be far better off knowing everyone that wanted to call themself a member, announcing dues against the prior years membership (27k dues paying members last year, 2.8M budget, for example) and marketing to those non-dues paying members to help support the national church with a donation. The current assessments policy places burdens on the churches and church members that aren't sensible. This is the greatest driver in not knowing how many people are in the church, imo.
To the first part, I'm going to agree with another poster and say I think you have stepped past the boundaries here Mark. Fr. Kondratick did good things for the church. The church would be irresponsible and not pc to say anything different about him in a public forum unless he is convicted of a crime. Beyond pc, if the national church starts saying bad stuff about him, its also slander or libel, so I think you've forgotten not only pc, but also lc. I think it would be extremely irresponsible to say bad about him, and I'm glad it didn't.
To the second point. The only way the church will ever become honest about its membership is if it has paying and non-paying members, or member classes. It isn't always fathomable for every person to pay. The national church and the AACs need to recognize and address this issue. There are people that cannot afford to pay in certain years. The national church would be far better off knowing everyone that wanted to call themself a member, announcing dues against the prior years membership (27k dues paying members last year, 2.8M budget, for example) and marketing to those non-dues paying members to help support the national church with a donation. The current assessments policy places burdens on the churches and church members that aren't sensible. This is the greatest driver in not knowing how many people are in the church, imo.
#6
Daniel E. Fall
on
2006-05-15 22:46
Ken Lay did a lot of good things, for Enron, but the last four years he was a thief. This is why we should find what happened to yhe ADM money!
Was not eggregous over reporting of membership one of Fr Thomas Hopko's comments in his letter that was posted on this web site? Doesn't his comment raise a question of veracity in this regard?
The OCA has been reporting declining official census figures for over 25 years. There are a variety of reasons for this, one of which is known under reporting of membership by parishes to reduce their assessment to the national church. But then, doesn't this unwillingness to provide financial support to the national church speak of a problem?
The bishops have not called for accountability because to call one's brother into accountability leaves you open be to held accountable yourself. As a priest friend once observed, "The OCA is totally autocephalous. Parishes act as if they are autocephalous, dioceses act as if they were autocephalous."
What is important to understand is that the number of new members of the Body of Christ as represented by the OCA, is far fewer than those who have died or departed the church for other reasons.
The OCA has been reporting declining official census figures for over 25 years. There are a variety of reasons for this, one of which is known under reporting of membership by parishes to reduce their assessment to the national church. But then, doesn't this unwillingness to provide financial support to the national church speak of a problem?
The bishops have not called for accountability because to call one's brother into accountability leaves you open be to held accountable yourself. As a priest friend once observed, "The OCA is totally autocephalous. Parishes act as if they are autocephalous, dioceses act as if they were autocephalous."
What is important to understand is that the number of new members of the Body of Christ as represented by the OCA, is far fewer than those who have died or departed the church for other reasons.
#7
Thomas
on
2006-05-15 23:20
When I look at pictures of my parish community from 60, 70, or even 100 years ago I am always surprised to see so many people. There was no way they could all fit in the building. Now the parish is much smaller. Only 2 old women and 1 old man are in the parish who's ancestors appear in those old pictures. But the parish is full. Full of converts and the children of converts.
I'm not a sociologist, so I don't have any statistics or studies to back up my theory, but I suspect that the faith of many of the people in those old pictures was not very deep, that Orthodoxy for them had more to do with being Russians than being Christians. So, it makes sense that as they became Americanized their children would be lost to the faith.
I think that concern about numbers, per se, is misdirected. Instead efforts should be directed toward spiritual formation and evangelism.
I'm not a sociologist, so I don't have any statistics or studies to back up my theory, but I suspect that the faith of many of the people in those old pictures was not very deep, that Orthodoxy for them had more to do with being Russians than being Christians. So, it makes sense that as they became Americanized their children would be lost to the faith.
I think that concern about numbers, per se, is misdirected. Instead efforts should be directed toward spiritual formation and evangelism.
#8
Matt
on
2006-05-16 09:20
I agree that efforts should be directed toward spiritual formation and evangelism. However, let's all be clear about what "spiritual formation" and "evangelism" really are. "Spiritual formation" is, essentially, self-evangelization. By this I deepen my spirituality through 1) progressively more intense, regular daily prayer; 2) striving to attend and worship God at all church services (not just Sunday Liturgy); 3) regular Bible reading, other spiritual reading, and meditation: 3) working towards true financial tithing as well as using God's money Biblically (all I have is really His); 4) interation and relationship-building with fellow parishioners more often than just Sunday morning; 5) other spirituality strengthening activities. "Evangelism" is really enthusiastically preaching the Gospel, especially to unchurched people. Evangelism is not about "sheep-shifting" (i.e., trying to attract Orthodox people from other parishes), which is sometimes justified by the term "outreach." In fact, true outreach should really also be focused on unchurched people.
The sad thing is that many Orthodox people think that evangelism is something only priests are supposed to do. But Jesus Christ gave the Great Commission (Matthew 28:19-20)to all of us, not just the clergy. It is the responsibility of each of us to go out to "make disciples of all nations," and that can be scary for many people. Why? Because items 1-5 are minimalized or lacking in their lives. The courage to evangelize grows when I deepen my own spiritual life.
What does this have to do with the scandal? Everything. Because if all members of the OCA--bishops and other clergy, laity, as well as national-church/diocesan/local church administrators were following the Great Commission with zeal, we wouldn't be venting our frustrations on this website over a scandal, because there wouldn't be a scandal.
So let us begin, today, to use this wonderful forum to share ideas, strength, and hope for the true evangelism Christ wants us to do. As we demand accountability from Syosset, let us also, simultaneously, become accountable to Jesus Christ by taking the risk to evangelize the unchurched. It won't be easy, because we really don't know how. We need to be continuously asking Christ for guidance. Evangelizing will be risky and maybe painful, because we will have to change our priorities, activities, and perhaps even some friends. But without risk, I don't grow.
As we engage in this important effort, we will strengthen the OCA in ways that will far surpass the nonsense that has occurred in Syosset. The OCA will be highly strengthened even if the millions of lost dollars are deemed "unaccounted for" and inefficiencies in Syosset persist.
Yes, we still need to remain aware of the scandal issue, but let's start focusing on the greater need--to make disciples of all nations. How? We can start by sharing with friends, neighbors, or even strangers the ways in which God has blessed us. To start, all we have to do is tell the story of a blessing and the positive effect it had on us. In the meantime, and in between time, we can continually be working on the 5 items I mentioned above.
So--Go for it! You, I, we can all do it! Yes we can!
The sad thing is that many Orthodox people think that evangelism is something only priests are supposed to do. But Jesus Christ gave the Great Commission (Matthew 28:19-20)to all of us, not just the clergy. It is the responsibility of each of us to go out to "make disciples of all nations," and that can be scary for many people. Why? Because items 1-5 are minimalized or lacking in their lives. The courage to evangelize grows when I deepen my own spiritual life.
What does this have to do with the scandal? Everything. Because if all members of the OCA--bishops and other clergy, laity, as well as national-church/diocesan/local church administrators were following the Great Commission with zeal, we wouldn't be venting our frustrations on this website over a scandal, because there wouldn't be a scandal.
So let us begin, today, to use this wonderful forum to share ideas, strength, and hope for the true evangelism Christ wants us to do. As we demand accountability from Syosset, let us also, simultaneously, become accountable to Jesus Christ by taking the risk to evangelize the unchurched. It won't be easy, because we really don't know how. We need to be continuously asking Christ for guidance. Evangelizing will be risky and maybe painful, because we will have to change our priorities, activities, and perhaps even some friends. But without risk, I don't grow.
As we engage in this important effort, we will strengthen the OCA in ways that will far surpass the nonsense that has occurred in Syosset. The OCA will be highly strengthened even if the millions of lost dollars are deemed "unaccounted for" and inefficiencies in Syosset persist.
Yes, we still need to remain aware of the scandal issue, but let's start focusing on the greater need--to make disciples of all nations. How? We can start by sharing with friends, neighbors, or even strangers the ways in which God has blessed us. To start, all we have to do is tell the story of a blessing and the positive effect it had on us. In the meantime, and in between time, we can continually be working on the 5 items I mentioned above.
So--Go for it! You, I, we can all do it! Yes we can!
#8.1
Matushka Pearl Homiak
on
2006-05-16 22:29
Once upon a time to be Russian was to be pravnaslavnee, Christian Orthodox. You were first and foremost an Orthodox Man or Woman. You are right the church was the center of their community and culture and life, but that is not a bad thing, nor does it mean that their faith was not very deep.
#8.2
Ivan S.
on
2006-05-18 17:00
Matt - -
The numbers themselves are not the issue. If the Church uses census numbers to improve our success at evangelizing or serving the people, that's fine.
BUT NOTE: The OCA reported over 1,000,000 members or whatever you wish to call them, and claimed a one year increase of 6.4%, or 64,000 people. Yet the official rolls of the OCA report about 28,000. How could the OCA determine that their membership increased by 64,000 when they can only identify 28,000 members by name to begin with???????? That's what folks like Fr Hopko and others are questioning. The numbers are so preposterous that they jump off the paper at you. Even Pravda, in their heyday, was a bit more meticulous in their fabrications.
The numbers themselves are not the issue. If the Church uses census numbers to improve our success at evangelizing or serving the people, that's fine.
BUT NOTE: The OCA reported over 1,000,000 members or whatever you wish to call them, and claimed a one year increase of 6.4%, or 64,000 people. Yet the official rolls of the OCA report about 28,000. How could the OCA determine that their membership increased by 64,000 when they can only identify 28,000 members by name to begin with???????? That's what folks like Fr Hopko and others are questioning. The numbers are so preposterous that they jump off the paper at you. Even Pravda, in their heyday, was a bit more meticulous in their fabrications.
#9
Thomas
on
2006-05-17 03:19
OK, Mr Stokoe, maybe the term "hate" was taken a bit out of context. There is no doubt you dislike the man and I sure would like to know the reason. As for the ensuring everyone knows what happened to Fr Kondratick. Trust me, you’ve beaten that horse to death. We all know he was “fired” or “dismissed” or whatever the word of the day is. If there is a publication that takes a step back and tries to make the best situation, then let it be.
The fact that the Orthodox Church Newspaper, chose not to publish an article with the same tone of voice you or this website does is wrong? The issues on this website were never personal or about personalities? This website is so “anti-Fr Kondratick” that it’s become funny. You’re wrong Mr Stokoe, the issues on this website are very personal and are about personalities. You posting letters from Bishops to the Metropolitan and vice versa are PERSONAL. The “pot shots” taken at the Metropolitan, the Bishops and Fr Kondratick are of your own doing. No one elses!!
Not everyone views Fr Kondratick as what he has been portrayed on this website. People have already placed all the blame on him, convicted and put him in prison, question his credibility, talk about him with a total lack of respect and in essence, are spitting on him as Jesus was while he walked to his crucifixion. This man has done more for the church in his 30 years than any of us will do in our lifetime.
What’s wrong with someone putting out some of the accomplishments of Fr Kondratick, is that against the law? No, that’s not it Mike, it doesn’t pass the “veracity” test!!
What's wrong with a priest who chooses not to discuss this with their parishoners? Maybe that priest(s) doesn’t want to be a part of something that’s totally out of his control nor let his parishioners partake of all this ridicule and finger-pointing. Any priest can choose not to tell his parish; who knows, maybe he’s afraid of the retribution he’ll get in the end!!
As for those parishes where the priest "actively" discourages folks from reading this website. The best thing about this country is that people are free to do what they choose. IF they have an internet connection; no one is stopping them from viewing your website. I don't want to hear about a priest who actively discourages against it. People have their own minds. That's ridiculous!
You also say that parishoners in YOUR own church don't know about this? To think that you are involved up to your neck in this website, YOU never informed YOUR parish of this "scandal?"
The fact that the Orthodox Church Newspaper, chose not to publish an article with the same tone of voice you or this website does is wrong? The issues on this website were never personal or about personalities? This website is so “anti-Fr Kondratick” that it’s become funny. You’re wrong Mr Stokoe, the issues on this website are very personal and are about personalities. You posting letters from Bishops to the Metropolitan and vice versa are PERSONAL. The “pot shots” taken at the Metropolitan, the Bishops and Fr Kondratick are of your own doing. No one elses!!
Not everyone views Fr Kondratick as what he has been portrayed on this website. People have already placed all the blame on him, convicted and put him in prison, question his credibility, talk about him with a total lack of respect and in essence, are spitting on him as Jesus was while he walked to his crucifixion. This man has done more for the church in his 30 years than any of us will do in our lifetime.
What’s wrong with someone putting out some of the accomplishments of Fr Kondratick, is that against the law? No, that’s not it Mike, it doesn’t pass the “veracity” test!!
What's wrong with a priest who chooses not to discuss this with their parishoners? Maybe that priest(s) doesn’t want to be a part of something that’s totally out of his control nor let his parishioners partake of all this ridicule and finger-pointing. Any priest can choose not to tell his parish; who knows, maybe he’s afraid of the retribution he’ll get in the end!!
As for those parishes where the priest "actively" discourages folks from reading this website. The best thing about this country is that people are free to do what they choose. IF they have an internet connection; no one is stopping them from viewing your website. I don't want to hear about a priest who actively discourages against it. People have their own minds. That's ridiculous!
You also say that parishoners in YOUR own church don't know about this? To think that you are involved up to your neck in this website, YOU never informed YOUR parish of this "scandal?"
#10
Michael Livosky
on
2006-05-17 03:48
In response to Michael Livosky's (#10).
Michael:
I thank you from the bottom of my heart for putting into words those emotions that I was unable to put to keyboard.
Fr. Bob has sacrificed much in 30 years, including but not limited to being away from his family for great lengths of time, all to help put the OCA in the forefront and out of the spectrum of being the poor country cousins to the GOA.
I think that once all has settled, many people will be embarrassed by their knee jerk reactions and their willingness to jump on the band wagon to destroy a wonderful person
Michael:
I thank you from the bottom of my heart for putting into words those emotions that I was unable to put to keyboard.
Fr. Bob has sacrificed much in 30 years, including but not limited to being away from his family for great lengths of time, all to help put the OCA in the forefront and out of the spectrum of being the poor country cousins to the GOA.
I think that once all has settled, many people will be embarrassed by their knee jerk reactions and their willingness to jump on the band wagon to destroy a wonderful person
#10.1
Tina Rhodes
on
2006-05-17 15:54
Why does it matter if we are the poor country cousins to the GOA? And if in terms of numbers and financial resources we are the poor country cousins, in what way does it do us any good to appear to be other than what we are?
I'm asking because I really don't understand, not to be provocative and contrary.
Rebecca
I'm asking because I really don't understand, not to be provocative and contrary.
Rebecca
#10.1.1
Rebecca Matovic
on
2006-05-18 14:06
Michael,
Do you honestly believe the Church would have hired such a prominent law firm if certain allegations regarding Fr. Bob were not true? Come on.
You and I have had several communiques already. Let's just wait for the truth to come out.
If certain allegations are proven to be true, what will your attitude then be with regard to Fr. Bob?
We all know he's done a great deal of service to our Church for many years. However, should the outcome regarding these allegations be true, the harm done will far outweigh any of the good by leaps and bounds.
Both of us want nothing but good for our Church. I hope we will hear something one way or the other sooner than later. However, I personally think the longer we don't hear something, the probability is greater that something was indeed shamefully carried out and it's taking much more time to put everything into place.
Michael Geeza
Do you honestly believe the Church would have hired such a prominent law firm if certain allegations regarding Fr. Bob were not true? Come on.
You and I have had several communiques already. Let's just wait for the truth to come out.
If certain allegations are proven to be true, what will your attitude then be with regard to Fr. Bob?
We all know he's done a great deal of service to our Church for many years. However, should the outcome regarding these allegations be true, the harm done will far outweigh any of the good by leaps and bounds.
Both of us want nothing but good for our Church. I hope we will hear something one way or the other sooner than later. However, I personally think the longer we don't hear something, the probability is greater that something was indeed shamefully carried out and it's taking much more time to put everything into place.
Michael Geeza
#10.2
Michael Geeza
on
2006-05-17 17:51
I for one have not "placed all the blame" on Fr. Bob. This problem is systemic at its root. Fr. Bob may have been a willing participant, but he certainly did not err/could not have erred alone. Bishop Tikhon's post is curious in that he seems quite willing to excuse bad bookkeeping. This is a telltale sign. No importance is placed on good stewardship among our bishops (at least that bishop). This attitude and practice must cease now and forever more!
#10.3
Name Withheld by Request
on
2006-05-17 19:25
Mike:
It seems to me that only person ranting and raving is you. I dont see anything inflammatory or libelous about this website. TRUTH, AND AGAIN I SAY TRUTH, is paramount in the Church. When one learns that the flock is being robbed by the shepherds, then how can one listen to anything being preached or taught? Its like a cancer - radical surgery is required.
Let's have full disclosure of what is being hidden from the faithful - let's have a day of solemn prayer, repentance and forgiveness involving clergy and laity alike. A little true humility would be a refreshing change. Remember - judgement begins in the House of the Lord.
It seems to me that only person ranting and raving is you. I dont see anything inflammatory or libelous about this website. TRUTH, AND AGAIN I SAY TRUTH, is paramount in the Church. When one learns that the flock is being robbed by the shepherds, then how can one listen to anything being preached or taught? Its like a cancer - radical surgery is required.
Let's have full disclosure of what is being hidden from the faithful - let's have a day of solemn prayer, repentance and forgiveness involving clergy and laity alike. A little true humility would be a refreshing change. Remember - judgement begins in the House of the Lord.
#10.4
Rich
on
2006-05-17 19:53
More Bad News
The OCA may be in more trouble that we think. The UK diocese of Sourozh has just had it's presiding bishop, +Basil, released from duties and sent into retirement. From their web site http://www.dioceseinfo.org/ :
"Decrees of His Holiness Alexis II, Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia,read by Archbishop Innokentii of Korsun after the Divine Liturgy at the Cathedral of the Dormition and All Saints, Ennismore Gardens, London, 14 May 2006
Bishop Basil has been released from his duties as Administrator of the Diocese of Sourozh and sent into retirement. [He remains a bishop of the Moscow Patriarchate.]
He is forbidden to join another Patriarchate until a commission headed by Archbishop Innokentii has completed its investigation into recent events in the Diocese of Sourozh. All will be welcome to express their views.
Archbishop Innokentii is now head of the Diocese of Sourozh "
The present financial scandal within the OCA is currently a mere sideshow for Moscow but you can be sure that they will turn their attention to us at some point.
What would it take for the Moscow Patriarchate to revoke the tome of autocephaly and exert direct control over the OCA? Impossible? Perhaps not. How will historians of the OCA look at this scandal in 50 years time (if indeed the OCA exists at that point)? Will they not conclude that the financial scandal brought lasting discredit to the hierarchy? Will they not conclude that in trying to conceal wrongdoing and preserve their personal reputations regardless of cost those powerful individuals responsible for the scandal brought the whole church to the brink of ruin?
It seems to me that until the real truth of all that has transpired since the early 90s is revealed there will be no lasting closure on this issue. There is no way that the church can return to 'business as usual' with the perpetrators of the misdeeds still in positions of authority. There can be no return to the status quo ante. The existence of the Orthodox Church in America is at stake here and it's past time for some radical action.
Those responsible should put aside their pride and own up. The laity needs to hear from those responsible for a decade and a half of financial impropriety public confessions of culpability. The laity needs to see public expressions of repentance from those responsible. Only this can avert catastrophy.
The OCA may be in more trouble that we think. The UK diocese of Sourozh has just had it's presiding bishop, +Basil, released from duties and sent into retirement. From their web site http://www.dioceseinfo.org/ :
"Decrees of His Holiness Alexis II, Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia,read by Archbishop Innokentii of Korsun after the Divine Liturgy at the Cathedral of the Dormition and All Saints, Ennismore Gardens, London, 14 May 2006
Bishop Basil has been released from his duties as Administrator of the Diocese of Sourozh and sent into retirement. [He remains a bishop of the Moscow Patriarchate.]
He is forbidden to join another Patriarchate until a commission headed by Archbishop Innokentii has completed its investigation into recent events in the Diocese of Sourozh. All will be welcome to express their views.
Archbishop Innokentii is now head of the Diocese of Sourozh "
The present financial scandal within the OCA is currently a mere sideshow for Moscow but you can be sure that they will turn their attention to us at some point.
What would it take for the Moscow Patriarchate to revoke the tome of autocephaly and exert direct control over the OCA? Impossible? Perhaps not. How will historians of the OCA look at this scandal in 50 years time (if indeed the OCA exists at that point)? Will they not conclude that the financial scandal brought lasting discredit to the hierarchy? Will they not conclude that in trying to conceal wrongdoing and preserve their personal reputations regardless of cost those powerful individuals responsible for the scandal brought the whole church to the brink of ruin?
It seems to me that until the real truth of all that has transpired since the early 90s is revealed there will be no lasting closure on this issue. There is no way that the church can return to 'business as usual' with the perpetrators of the misdeeds still in positions of authority. There can be no return to the status quo ante. The existence of the Orthodox Church in America is at stake here and it's past time for some radical action.
Those responsible should put aside their pride and own up. The laity needs to hear from those responsible for a decade and a half of financial impropriety public confessions of culpability. The laity needs to see public expressions of repentance from those responsible. Only this can avert catastrophy.
#11
Mark Pearson
on
2006-05-17 09:39
I RECOMMEND EVERYONE READ WHAT THE RUSSIANS ARE DOING IN ENGLAND!!
LETS GET OUR ISSUES RESOLVED IMMEDIATELY IF NOT SOONER.
WE SURELY DON'T WANT TOO BE PART OF THAT RUSSIAN CHURCH.
IT SEEMS ODD THAT THE TIMEING IS NOW!!
LETS GET OUR ISSUES RESOLVED IMMEDIATELY IF NOT SOONER.
WE SURELY DON'T WANT TOO BE PART OF THAT RUSSIAN CHURCH.
IT SEEMS ODD THAT THE TIMEING IS NOW!!
Where might I read about this?
#11.1.1
Michael Strelka
on
2006-05-22 08:15
The author does not allow comments to this entry
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