Friday, March 27. 2009
The Antiochians and Lessons From the Recent Roman Catholic Scandal
Your comments on the reflection or the issue it raises are welcome.
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Com'on! + Dimitri's offense was with a woman at a casino after having a drink which may have been doctored. Sure, maybe he shouldn't have been at a casino. Sure, maybe he shouldn't have had a drink. Sure, maybe he was enticed and shouldn't have touched the woman. Yet, how refreshing to know he's a normal, red-blooded male. Let the man get married if he so desires.
Was it bad judgment? Of course, but he has repented. I believe in second chances and Christ did also with Mary Magdalene.
Was it bad judgment? Of course, but he has repented. I believe in second chances and Christ did also with Mary Magdalene.
#1
Anonymous
on
2009-03-27 06:15
And that makes it all right? I love to drink and fondle breasts too, but I'm not a bishop let alone a priest! Even Bishop Demetri admitted the fault was his alone and he had no excuse. I don't condemn his reasons or his soul, I condemn his actions. He knew the rules.
I don't get this mentality that groping a woman is "no big deal"! If he had done that to my wife or sister I'd have beaten the crap out of him, *and the fact he was a bishop makes it worse*. I don't care how they treat women in the Middle East (ok I really do), but you're in America now. You think he should be rewarded because he didn't do something worse like giving it to a teenage boy or young girl? That's just stupid.
How does Antioch have moral authority since it does the exact same thing the RCC does? It's amazing how money keeps one in the good graces of the church. Unbelievable. Why did I convert?!
Oh and the irony: If I had beaten the crap out of him, I'd have gone to jail and gotten a worse sentence and longer probation, and Met. Phillip would've have excommunicated ME
I don't get this mentality that groping a woman is "no big deal"! If he had done that to my wife or sister I'd have beaten the crap out of him, *and the fact he was a bishop makes it worse*. I don't care how they treat women in the Middle East (ok I really do), but you're in America now. You think he should be rewarded because he didn't do something worse like giving it to a teenage boy or young girl? That's just stupid.
How does Antioch have moral authority since it does the exact same thing the RCC does? It's amazing how money keeps one in the good graces of the church. Unbelievable. Why did I convert?!
Oh and the irony: If I had beaten the crap out of him, I'd have gone to jail and gotten a worse sentence and longer probation, and Met. Phillip would've have excommunicated ME
#1.1
Kevin Klein
on
2009-03-27 11:25
Good grief, Kevin! Did you even read the posting to which you were replying? I think not! Your response was to something else, not printed in the post -- something deeper.
Get off your high-horse and then re-read what was written. I think that you'll be surprised.
Outrage of this nature is seductive: it passes for righteousness when it really covers a dark interior. I know; it's one of my persistent sins.
Let's quit imagining that our bishops are passion-less. Hold them accountable for their public sins, be accountable for yours, and accept their repentance when offered -- without judging their intents.
You can't know, which is why such judgment is so great an offence against the Gospel.
Get off your high-horse and then re-read what was written. I think that you'll be surprised.
Outrage of this nature is seductive: it passes for righteousness when it really covers a dark interior. I know; it's one of my persistent sins.
Let's quit imagining that our bishops are passion-less. Hold them accountable for their public sins, be accountable for yours, and accept their repentance when offered -- without judging their intents.
You can't know, which is why such judgment is so great an offence against the Gospel.
#1.1.1
Rdr. John
on
2009-03-28 22:06
EXCELLENT response Reader John!
Most bishops are chosen from the Rassophore grade of monastic life. Although not technically a 'full' monastic...still there is the permanence of the Monastic Tonsure (considered by most Orthodox theologians as not open to dispensation in any form). Within the Slavic tradition it is rarely if ever done...and was never done before 1800!). In Greek tradition it is never done...and even when a monk is expelled, he/she is still bound to maintain his or her promise/commitment to the Lord as a celibate chaste monastic. All of our Orthodox laity would do well to include in their Lenten reading...some of the spiritual writings of the desert Fathers to begin to understand that a fall in the monastic life (just like a fall in the married life) does NOT mean that one is exempt from the commitment to CONTINUE THE STRUGGLE! "Oh let the bishop marry then!"---balony! There is something MUCH more serious here at work...and that is the seriousness of Christian STRUGGLE---from which there is NO release until death! Also, in addition to the monastic struggle, a bishop has taken on the fullness of the Mystery of Holy Orders---the very Image of Christ's priestly apostolic persona---something not easily given up. It would be very much like 'coming down from the cross'!
Rassophore Monastic
Rassophore (Greek: ρασσοφορος, rassophoros; Slavonic: рясофоръ, ryasofor), lit. "Robe-bearer"—If the novice continues on to become a monk, he is clothed in the first degree of monasticism at a service at which he receives the tonsure. Although there are no formal vows made at this point, the candidate is normally required to affirm his commitment to persevere in the monastic life. The abbot will then perform the tonsure, cutting a small amount of hair from four spots on the head, forming a cross. He is then given the outer cassock (Greek: ρασσον, Rasson, Exorasson, or Mandorrason; Slavonic: рясса, Riassa), an outer robe with wide sleeves, from which the name of Rassophore is derived. He is also given a kamilavkion, a cylindrical brimless hat, which is covered with a veil called an epanokamelavkion. (These are separate items in the Greek tradition, but in the Russian tradition the two are stitched together and the combination is called a klobuk.) If he has not previously received it, a leather belt is fastened around his waist. His habit is usually black, signifying that he is now dead to the world, and he receives a new name.
Although the Rassophore does not make formal vows, he is still morally obligated to continue in the monastic estate for the rest of his life. Some will remain Rassophores permanently without going on to the higher degrees.
Stavrophore Monastic
Stavrophore (Greek: σταυρφορος, stavrophoros; Slavonic: крестоносецъ, krestonosets), lit. "Cross-bearer"—The next level for Eastern monastics takes place some years after the first tonsure when the abbot feels the monk has reached an appropriate level of discipline, dedication, and humility. This degree is also known as the Little Schema, and is thought of as a "betrothal" to the Great Schema. At this stage, the monk makes formal vows of stability of place, chastity, obedience and poverty. Then he is tonsured and clothed in the habit, which in addition to that worn by the Rassophore, includes the paramandyas (Greek: παραμανυας; Slavonic: параманъ, paraman), a piece of square cloth worn on the back, embroidered with the instruments of the Passion, and connected by ties to a wooden cross worn over the heart. The paramandyas represents the yoke of Christ. Because of this addition he is now called Stavrophore, or Cross-bearer. He is also given a wooden hand cross (or "profession cross"), which he should keep in his icon corner, and a beeswax candle, symbolic of monastic vigilance the sacrificing of himself for God. He will be buried holding the cross, and the candle will be burned at his funeral. In the Slavic practice, the Stavrophore also wears the monastic mantle, which symbolizes 40 days of the Lord's fasting on the Mountain of Temptation. The rasson worn by the Stavrophore is more ample than that worn by the Rassophore.
After the ceremony, the newly-tonsured Stavrophore will remain in vigil in the church for five days, refraining from all work, except spiritual reading. Currently, this vigil is often reduced to three days. The abbot increases the Stavrophore monk’s prayer rule, allows a more strict personal ascetic practice, and gives the monk more responsibility.
In His great mercy,
Fr. Pius, priestmonk
Most bishops are chosen from the Rassophore grade of monastic life. Although not technically a 'full' monastic...still there is the permanence of the Monastic Tonsure (considered by most Orthodox theologians as not open to dispensation in any form). Within the Slavic tradition it is rarely if ever done...and was never done before 1800!). In Greek tradition it is never done...and even when a monk is expelled, he/she is still bound to maintain his or her promise/commitment to the Lord as a celibate chaste monastic. All of our Orthodox laity would do well to include in their Lenten reading...some of the spiritual writings of the desert Fathers to begin to understand that a fall in the monastic life (just like a fall in the married life) does NOT mean that one is exempt from the commitment to CONTINUE THE STRUGGLE! "Oh let the bishop marry then!"---balony! There is something MUCH more serious here at work...and that is the seriousness of Christian STRUGGLE---from which there is NO release until death! Also, in addition to the monastic struggle, a bishop has taken on the fullness of the Mystery of Holy Orders---the very Image of Christ's priestly apostolic persona---something not easily given up. It would be very much like 'coming down from the cross'!
Rassophore Monastic
Rassophore (Greek: ρασσοφορος, rassophoros; Slavonic: рясофоръ, ryasofor), lit. "Robe-bearer"—If the novice continues on to become a monk, he is clothed in the first degree of monasticism at a service at which he receives the tonsure. Although there are no formal vows made at this point, the candidate is normally required to affirm his commitment to persevere in the monastic life. The abbot will then perform the tonsure, cutting a small amount of hair from four spots on the head, forming a cross. He is then given the outer cassock (Greek: ρασσον, Rasson, Exorasson, or Mandorrason; Slavonic: рясса, Riassa), an outer robe with wide sleeves, from which the name of Rassophore is derived. He is also given a kamilavkion, a cylindrical brimless hat, which is covered with a veil called an epanokamelavkion. (These are separate items in the Greek tradition, but in the Russian tradition the two are stitched together and the combination is called a klobuk.) If he has not previously received it, a leather belt is fastened around his waist. His habit is usually black, signifying that he is now dead to the world, and he receives a new name.
Although the Rassophore does not make formal vows, he is still morally obligated to continue in the monastic estate for the rest of his life. Some will remain Rassophores permanently without going on to the higher degrees.
Stavrophore Monastic
Stavrophore (Greek: σταυρφορος, stavrophoros; Slavonic: крестоносецъ, krestonosets), lit. "Cross-bearer"—The next level for Eastern monastics takes place some years after the first tonsure when the abbot feels the monk has reached an appropriate level of discipline, dedication, and humility. This degree is also known as the Little Schema, and is thought of as a "betrothal" to the Great Schema. At this stage, the monk makes formal vows of stability of place, chastity, obedience and poverty. Then he is tonsured and clothed in the habit, which in addition to that worn by the Rassophore, includes the paramandyas (Greek: παραμανυας; Slavonic: параманъ, paraman), a piece of square cloth worn on the back, embroidered with the instruments of the Passion, and connected by ties to a wooden cross worn over the heart. The paramandyas represents the yoke of Christ. Because of this addition he is now called Stavrophore, or Cross-bearer. He is also given a wooden hand cross (or "profession cross"), which he should keep in his icon corner, and a beeswax candle, symbolic of monastic vigilance the sacrificing of himself for God. He will be buried holding the cross, and the candle will be burned at his funeral. In the Slavic practice, the Stavrophore also wears the monastic mantle, which symbolizes 40 days of the Lord's fasting on the Mountain of Temptation. The rasson worn by the Stavrophore is more ample than that worn by the Rassophore.
After the ceremony, the newly-tonsured Stavrophore will remain in vigil in the church for five days, refraining from all work, except spiritual reading. Currently, this vigil is often reduced to three days. The abbot increases the Stavrophore monk’s prayer rule, allows a more strict personal ascetic practice, and gives the monk more responsibility.
In His great mercy,
Fr. Pius, priestmonk
#1.1.1.1
Fr. Pius
on
2009-03-30 07:20
This is a very offensive comment. Besides the fact that you ignored what the author of this reflection said and the relevant points he made, you conclude that all 'normal' men are sex offenders. Do you really believe that all 'normal' men should walk around grabbing womens' breasts without their consent?
In addition to being offensive, you ignore the fact that Bishop DEMETRI is a bishop, and there are certain biblical and canonical requirements (what most Orthodox Christians consider 'normal', by the way) of a bishop that exceed those of the average person/layman. To my knowledge, no one is arguing that DEMETRI should not be forgiven. The author of this article appears to be arguing rather that, out of mercy for himself and those whom he serves, Bishop DEMETRI should not be sent somewhere else where the people are unaware of his struggles.
I guess we can find agreement on one point: let Bishop DEMETRI marry. That would seem to solve the problem.
In addition to being offensive, you ignore the fact that Bishop DEMETRI is a bishop, and there are certain biblical and canonical requirements (what most Orthodox Christians consider 'normal', by the way) of a bishop that exceed those of the average person/layman. To my knowledge, no one is arguing that DEMETRI should not be forgiven. The author of this article appears to be arguing rather that, out of mercy for himself and those whom he serves, Bishop DEMETRI should not be sent somewhere else where the people are unaware of his struggles.
I guess we can find agreement on one point: let Bishop DEMETRI marry. That would seem to solve the problem.
#1.2
Anonymous
on
2009-03-27 11:58
"Let us present a good fast, well-pleasing to the Lord! A true fast is alienation from the evil one and the holding of one’s tongue!" Abba Dorotheos
You don't get it---this kind of behavior wouldn't stop if His Grace HAD a wife...that's the point. This kind of behavior is clinical spiritually and needs to be part of a serious spiritual struggle with prayer, fasting, weekly or daily Confession to a REAL spiritual Father, the daily celebration of the Liturgy...etc. etc. What you're saying sounds EXACTLY like Catholics, who say, "Oh...if we had a married priesthood that would solve the problem!" WRONG again! These sins and are more serious and need a more serious plan of action...often both spiritual and professional.
In His great mercy,
Fr. Pius, priestmonk
You don't get it---this kind of behavior wouldn't stop if His Grace HAD a wife...that's the point. This kind of behavior is clinical spiritually and needs to be part of a serious spiritual struggle with prayer, fasting, weekly or daily Confession to a REAL spiritual Father, the daily celebration of the Liturgy...etc. etc. What you're saying sounds EXACTLY like Catholics, who say, "Oh...if we had a married priesthood that would solve the problem!" WRONG again! These sins and are more serious and need a more serious plan of action...often both spiritual and professional.
In His great mercy,
Fr. Pius, priestmonk
#1.2.1
Fr. Pius
on
2009-03-30 13:41
Fr Pius,
My last line was "tongue-in-cheek." I know this won't solve the underlying problem, but it would solve the problem of certain people trying to bring DEMETRI back into active episcopal service.
My last line was "tongue-in-cheek." I know this won't solve the underlying problem, but it would solve the problem of certain people trying to bring DEMETRI back into active episcopal service.
#1.2.1.1
Anonymous Antiochian Priest
on
2009-03-30 16:14
GOTCHA Father!---no problem.
Kissing your holy right hand,
Fr. Pius, priestmonk
Kissing your holy right hand,
Fr. Pius, priestmonk
#1.2.1.1.1
Fr. Pius
on
2009-03-31 11:28
Dear Father,
You are absolutely right. One who has alcohol problems usually has deeper problems that are simply masked by alcoholism. Alcoholics need treatment for the rest of their lives. Grabbing a woman's breast treats women as simply an object for his personal gratification. How can one serve others, if the others is only an object, an object of gratification. Most alcoholics also have some obsessive compulsive issues and little to no control over himself. How can one seriously help others when he is still in need of so much help himself?
You are absolutely right. One who has alcohol problems usually has deeper problems that are simply masked by alcoholism. Alcoholics need treatment for the rest of their lives. Grabbing a woman's breast treats women as simply an object for his personal gratification. How can one serve others, if the others is only an object, an object of gratification. Most alcoholics also have some obsessive compulsive issues and little to no control over himself. How can one seriously help others when he is still in need of so much help himself?
#1.2.1.2
anon
on
2009-04-02 09:40
You miss the point, Anonymous. It's not a matter of questioning Bishop Demetri's repentance over his moral lapse and breach of the law. It's a matter of allowing a man with a criminal conviction, who must now register as sex offender, to remain bishop and exercise authority in the Church. Retention of one's bishopric is not necessary for repentance and salvation. By all means, let him return to the laity, marry if he wants to, and live the rest of his life in repentance and making amends. He doesn't need to be a bishop to do that. But given the nature of his offense and his criminal conviction, he can no longer set the example a bishop must in being a shepherd, father and mentor to Christians or an effective ambassador of the Church to outsiders and non-believers, per 1 Timothy 3:1-7 and Titus 1:7-9.
#1.3
Gregory
on
2009-03-27 12:17
Glory to IC XC!
To Anonymous:
In the context of sexual sin, you mention Mary Magdalene.
Do not accept the Roman Catholic and Protestant confusion of St. Mary Magdalene with "the sinful woman" who shows up in Luke 7:36-50.
Two different women.
The Evangelist Luke knew who Mary Magdalene was and indicated her with her surname just two verses after (8:2) mentioning the sinful woman anonymously. (You can tell whenever it's Mary Magdalene in the Gospels, because she shows up with her surname in all four of them.)
See: http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/Mary_Magdalene.
in XC,
FBW
To Anonymous:
In the context of sexual sin, you mention Mary Magdalene.
Do not accept the Roman Catholic and Protestant confusion of St. Mary Magdalene with "the sinful woman" who shows up in Luke 7:36-50.
Two different women.
The Evangelist Luke knew who Mary Magdalene was and indicated her with her surname just two verses after (8:2) mentioning the sinful woman anonymously. (You can tell whenever it's Mary Magdalene in the Gospels, because she shows up with her surname in all four of them.)
See: http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/Mary_Magdalene.
in XC,
FBW
#1.4
Rev. Bartholomew Wojcik
on
2009-03-27 16:32
Fr,
Not only does Luke 8:1-3 identify that Mary Magdalene as have been healed of 7 demons, church tradition identifies her as a repentant harlot. Orthodoxwiki is filled with many issues which are questionably "Orthodox." Don't rely on it as a sole source for Orthodoxy!
Not only does Luke 8:1-3 identify that Mary Magdalene as have been healed of 7 demons, church tradition identifies her as a repentant harlot. Orthodoxwiki is filled with many issues which are questionably "Orthodox." Don't rely on it as a sole source for Orthodoxy!
#1.4.1
Anonymous
on
2009-03-29 07:46
Sorry, Anonymous, but Orthodox Church tradition does NOT identify Mary Magdalene as a harlot. A Roman pope in the 6th century mis-identified her as the harlot, not the Orthodox. Even our hymnography resists such a claim, as seen in the Hymn of Cassiani (Holy Friday matins) about the repentant harlot, which does not make that connection. Surely if the Harlot was Mary, she would have been named, juxtaposed to Judas throughout that matins service.
More on topic, one's repentance does not mean that a convicted felon should return to an active episcopacy! Bp Demetri's repentance is about his soul, not his "job." In humility one would think he would refuse to return to the episcopal office.
More on topic, one's repentance does not mean that a convicted felon should return to an active episcopacy! Bp Demetri's repentance is about his soul, not his "job." In humility one would think he would refuse to return to the episcopal office.
#1.4.1.1
Another Anon
on
2009-03-31 10:01
Um, the othodoxwiki reference was for the convenience of the anonymous and erroneous poster above. It was not the source of my Orthodox education.
in XC,
FBW
in XC,
FBW
#1.4.1.2
Rev. Bartholomew Wojcik
on
2009-03-31 17:03
Sadly when the incident occured with Bishop Demetri the comment from the higher ups was *at least it was a woman*. Are women not as important as little boys or little girls in Middle Eastern Culture? As far as I can tell, in the USA no one should be groped by anyone without consent.
Secondly, Bishop Demetri had a long standing Alcohol problem known to the Archdiocese, i.e., Metropolitan Philip before he was even consecrated a Bishop in the first place (in Brooklyn, NY, Miami, FL and at the National Convention in Chicago when the Patriarch visited the lergy had to put him to bed).
He also had a history of making sexual advances towards priests' family members. Check out the website for Alcoholics Anonymous "There is no cure for alcoholism."* Anyone who ever went to one of their meetings would know this.
What kind of a Bishop goes to a casino in the first place. Is that Christian Stewardship?
There were also attempts to blame the Canfield, OH family who "took him" to the casino. Heaven help us! How old is the man? If he cannot make these decisions for himself, how can he be a bishop! He was not taken hostage and forced into the casino against his will. Nor was he forced to drink or to harass the woman so much that she called security before he groped her.
The Metropolitan watched the video. The state trooper said it was crystal clear. He also used the most vulgar language when arrested, very un-bishop like!
St Paul is very clear on the qualifications for being a bishop. End of discussion! Forgiveness is one thing enabling is another. Some of these people who talk of forgiveness do not seem to even have the slightest clue what repentance is!
He should have been deposed immediately after the video was watched by Metropolitan Philip. Perhaps he realized it was an opportunity for more Palestinian MONEY.
Secondly, Bishop Demetri had a long standing Alcohol problem known to the Archdiocese, i.e., Metropolitan Philip before he was even consecrated a Bishop in the first place (in Brooklyn, NY, Miami, FL and at the National Convention in Chicago when the Patriarch visited the lergy had to put him to bed).
He also had a history of making sexual advances towards priests' family members. Check out the website for Alcoholics Anonymous "There is no cure for alcoholism."* Anyone who ever went to one of their meetings would know this.
What kind of a Bishop goes to a casino in the first place. Is that Christian Stewardship?
There were also attempts to blame the Canfield, OH family who "took him" to the casino. Heaven help us! How old is the man? If he cannot make these decisions for himself, how can he be a bishop! He was not taken hostage and forced into the casino against his will. Nor was he forced to drink or to harass the woman so much that she called security before he groped her.
The Metropolitan watched the video. The state trooper said it was crystal clear. He also used the most vulgar language when arrested, very un-bishop like!
St Paul is very clear on the qualifications for being a bishop. End of discussion! Forgiveness is one thing enabling is another. Some of these people who talk of forgiveness do not seem to even have the slightest clue what repentance is!
He should have been deposed immediately after the video was watched by Metropolitan Philip. Perhaps he realized it was an opportunity for more Palestinian MONEY.
#1.5
scandal upon scandal, the order of the day
on
2009-03-27 21:15
A man who grabs a woman's breasts does so because she is property to him, to be used as he sees fit. According to a study of the molestation scandles in the Catholic Church, the clergy attracts narcissists, men who are incapable of seeing the humanity of their victims. There is no known cure for narcissism. I agree that this man must be forgiven, but I live in the Midwest. He will never be my Bishop.
#1.5.1
Anonymous
on
2009-03-29 18:48
I agree, to get the facts straight, he was taken to the casino with parishioners who took him there. Also, I don't care what people say. He is a great bishop and will continue to do God's work. Bishops, Clergy are not robots, not a mold of what most people think idealistically. Yes there is responsibility to these positions, but realistically at the same time do they have to be put down for living like 99.9% of normal civilized people. Give the man a break, give them all a break, especially the Metropolitan. Give all our bishops and clergy a break. Please quit stirring the jar, so that the oil may begin to float on top of the water and people will start to see things clearly rather than confused and mixed up.
Through confession and repentance, Bishop DEMETRI was absolved. Else why do we confess.
The Lord's prayer states, "forgive us our trespasses, as we FORGIVE those who have trespassed against us."
Check yourselves first, I try to do this daily but fail at times too.
Matt. 7:1 "Do not judge, or you too will be judged."
This website is full of hypocrisies and delusions. (Please post the entire message else do not post at all without permission, I have a text version of this comment because I know what kind of an editor you are from observing these comments.)
This so called Abdul Khoury or whatever his name is who writes these mysterious letters has a personal vendeta towards the archdiocese and causing ill will amongst Christians in general. For all we know he could be Mister Stokoe himself, or even me, or Joe Smith, or whoever. Anyone with angst can write anything and get it across the country asap since it is intertwined. Do you understand.
Do people actually enjoy learning more about these delusions and uninformed information that is full of untruths when in fact it is the individuals own perceptions being skewed because they seek skewed information. I suggest you all who are stating canon law or whatnot start to focus more on the actual history of the archdiocese and especially the structure and role of how it works and where it came from. Learn more about the faith as a whole rather than garbage you hear. I searched hard enough I guarantee I can find dirt and make stuff up to sound like the truth.
Please. I beg each and everyone of you to continue the lenten journey by fasting from this website. Or at least start the fast today. Many people have become more focused on these posts than what the faith is all about.
Much love and God bless to all who are wasting their valuable time on this earth and missing the target by obsessing about ill informed information and skewed point of views.
Forgive me a sinner.
A brother in Christ,
William
(Editor's note: Well, we can put one point to rest. I am not Abdallah Khouri. In the Fall of 2007 when the first letter appeared, I was rather pre-occupied with another Church scandal to worry about this one....)
Through confession and repentance, Bishop DEMETRI was absolved. Else why do we confess.
The Lord's prayer states, "forgive us our trespasses, as we FORGIVE those who have trespassed against us."
Check yourselves first, I try to do this daily but fail at times too.
Matt. 7:1 "Do not judge, or you too will be judged."
This website is full of hypocrisies and delusions. (Please post the entire message else do not post at all without permission, I have a text version of this comment because I know what kind of an editor you are from observing these comments.)
This so called Abdul Khoury or whatever his name is who writes these mysterious letters has a personal vendeta towards the archdiocese and causing ill will amongst Christians in general. For all we know he could be Mister Stokoe himself, or even me, or Joe Smith, or whoever. Anyone with angst can write anything and get it across the country asap since it is intertwined. Do you understand.
Do people actually enjoy learning more about these delusions and uninformed information that is full of untruths when in fact it is the individuals own perceptions being skewed because they seek skewed information. I suggest you all who are stating canon law or whatnot start to focus more on the actual history of the archdiocese and especially the structure and role of how it works and where it came from. Learn more about the faith as a whole rather than garbage you hear. I searched hard enough I guarantee I can find dirt and make stuff up to sound like the truth.
Please. I beg each and everyone of you to continue the lenten journey by fasting from this website. Or at least start the fast today. Many people have become more focused on these posts than what the faith is all about.
Much love and God bless to all who are wasting their valuable time on this earth and missing the target by obsessing about ill informed information and skewed point of views.
Forgive me a sinner.
A brother in Christ,
William
(Editor's note: Well, we can put one point to rest. I am not Abdallah Khouri. In the Fall of 2007 when the first letter appeared, I was rather pre-occupied with another Church scandal to worry about this one....)
#1.6
William
on
2009-03-28 13:02
Repentance and forgiveness does not mean that earthly consequences cease or temptations to the same sin will not recur.
The Church sets standards of behavior for those in holy orders which are quite strict. Those standards are there to protect the Church and her people AND those in orders. When clergy and bishops fall, they take a lot of other people with them.
It is no kindness to place a person in a situtation where he will be continually faced with temptations he has often shown he is unable to master. In fact, it is cruel and destructive. Demetri needs to heal. For besetting sins like alcoholism, repentance is often a life long process, not just a one and one all is well scenario (that is excurciatingly protestant).
Demetri no longer qualifies as a bishop or even a priest. Were it not for the insane resistance to monasticism, it would be an easy call to simply reitre Demetri to a monastary under an experienced spritual father. Demetri could then tend to his own needs and serve the Church as well. God would be glorified.
The Church sets standards of behavior for those in holy orders which are quite strict. Those standards are there to protect the Church and her people AND those in orders. When clergy and bishops fall, they take a lot of other people with them.
It is no kindness to place a person in a situtation where he will be continually faced with temptations he has often shown he is unable to master. In fact, it is cruel and destructive. Demetri needs to heal. For besetting sins like alcoholism, repentance is often a life long process, not just a one and one all is well scenario (that is excurciatingly protestant).
Demetri no longer qualifies as a bishop or even a priest. Were it not for the insane resistance to monasticism, it would be an easy call to simply reitre Demetri to a monastary under an experienced spritual father. Demetri could then tend to his own needs and serve the Church as well. God would be glorified.
#1.6.1
Michael Bauman
on
2009-03-29 10:21
William states: 'Matt. 7:1 "Do not judge, or you too will be judged."'
Then in the next paragraph he says: "This website is full of hypocrisies and delusions. (Please post the entire message else do not post at all without permission, I have a text version of this comment Matt. 7:1 "Do not judge, or you too will be judged."
This website is full of hypocrisies and delusions. (Please post the entire message else do not post at all without permission, I have a text version of this comment *because I know what kind of an editor you are from observing these comments.*)"
So, William, you have told us not to judge, yet you turn around immediately and judge Mr. Stokoe based on what you know of him from observing the comments on his website. Let's see: you see the final product, so you have half the information and you think you are qualified to judge him after just telling us not to judge. That doesn't lend much credibility to your message.
You also seem to ignore the fact that everything from Abdullah Khoury's e-mail has now come to pass. It seems that his e-mail was, in fact, credible. So how can you argue that it was full of half-truths?
Then in the next paragraph he says: "This website is full of hypocrisies and delusions. (Please post the entire message else do not post at all without permission, I have a text version of this comment Matt. 7:1 "Do not judge, or you too will be judged."
This website is full of hypocrisies and delusions. (Please post the entire message else do not post at all without permission, I have a text version of this comment *because I know what kind of an editor you are from observing these comments.*)"
So, William, you have told us not to judge, yet you turn around immediately and judge Mr. Stokoe based on what you know of him from observing the comments on his website. Let's see: you see the final product, so you have half the information and you think you are qualified to judge him after just telling us not to judge. That doesn't lend much credibility to your message.
You also seem to ignore the fact that everything from Abdullah Khoury's e-mail has now come to pass. It seems that his e-mail was, in fact, credible. So how can you argue that it was full of half-truths?
#1.6.2
Anonymous Antiochian Priest
on
2009-03-29 10:42
You paint with a broad brush in dismissing the comments here. Bishop Demetri's offense was caught on video tape at a casino in Traverse City, MI NO NONE IS MAKING THINGS UP. All this is available online. Check out the articles from the Toledo Blade! He had a known history of alcohol abuse ---FACT! He went to a Casino - FACT! He was once again intoxicated - FACT. and he groped a woman's breast after already harrassing her and being warned by security to leave her alone - FACT. He was arrested for Drunk and Disorderly Conduct and for SEXUAL ASSAULT FACT. Thestae police said he used vulgar language and was very un-Bishop like. Do you want him to be your example? An example for our young men?
He would have been convicted of a FOURTH DEGREE FELONY if he did not cop a plea - FACT. He now registers as a sex offender - FACT. Check out the website in Florida for his picture as a sex offender.
Finally, I do not think 99.9 % of the peole live that kind of life style. I have not been arrested, do not go to casinos, get drunk or grope anyone. Neither, do I associate with people who do. Perhaps we have a different circle of friends. If you are Orthodox perhaps this Lent gives you a lot to work on!
He would have been convicted of a FOURTH DEGREE FELONY if he did not cop a plea - FACT. He now registers as a sex offender - FACT. Check out the website in Florida for his picture as a sex offender.
Finally, I do not think 99.9 % of the peole live that kind of life style. I have not been arrested, do not go to casinos, get drunk or grope anyone. Neither, do I associate with people who do. Perhaps we have a different circle of friends. If you are Orthodox perhaps this Lent gives you a lot to work on!
#1.6.3
anonymous
on
2009-03-29 20:27
William, do you really think that 99.9% of "normal civilized people" get drunk in casinos, grope women in public and cause enough commotion to necessitate calling the cops? I guess I must live with a quiet crowd, as NOBODY I know has behaved like this. Regarding the "judge not" issue, this must be the third time I've posted this on this site, and I'm too lazy to type it all out again, so kindly open your Bible to 1st Corinthians 5: 9-13 and read what St. Paul had to say. Once you have done that, what do you think he would say about a bishop getting publicly drunk and groping a woman, and what our response to that should be?
#1.6.4
Scott Walker
on
2009-03-30 10:07
Isn't it great how Mark Stokoe can try to poisen the air to other Orthodox jurisdictions?
It seems that malcontents have no bounderies!
It seems that malcontents have no bounderies!
#1.7
Nickolas Antich
on
2009-04-01 05:21
"...there continues to be no accountability for what the Archdiocese does with its funds. External audits have been suggested in the past but have been firmly opposed by Englewood." A Deeply Troubled Antiochian Clergyman
"I think transparency in financial matters is extremely important... So by being transparent, by being good stewards, we have done so much. So much. And we made our books available to everyone in the archdiocese. We sent our financial report to every parish, every year, to every priest, to every archdiocene trustee, let them see what is happening in the archdiocese." Met. Philip, from an Ancient Faith podcast
(editor's note: The key words Mike in his reflection were "external audit"...)
"I think transparency in financial matters is extremely important... So by being transparent, by being good stewards, we have done so much. So much. And we made our books available to everyone in the archdiocese. We sent our financial report to every parish, every year, to every priest, to every archdiocene trustee, let them see what is happening in the archdiocese." Met. Philip, from an Ancient Faith podcast
(editor's note: The key words Mike in his reflection were "external audit"...)
#2
Michael Strelka, CPA
on
2009-03-27 07:54
Michael,
Where's the balance sheet?
Related party transactions?
Test of internal controls?
Management letter?
Classification of Unrestricted, Temporarily and Permanently Restricted Net Assets?
Come on, the report from the Antiochian Archdiocese is in no way a complete financial report.
Where's the balance sheet?
Related party transactions?
Test of internal controls?
Management letter?
Classification of Unrestricted, Temporarily and Permanently Restricted Net Assets?
Come on, the report from the Antiochian Archdiocese is in no way a complete financial report.
#2.1
Anon
on
2009-03-27 09:56
There will never be an external audit of the Antiochian Englewood company. NEVER a reference to the cash reserves Met Phillip refers to and no listing of endowments or any funds that he caN'T PERSONALLY CONTROL.
#2.1.1
Anonymous Antiochian :ayman
on
2009-03-27 21:58
A a 501c3 transparency is a legal matter. Secondly as a Church we should hav highe standards than the secular world in which we live. Perhaps people would be more generous if they knew that every dime went to what it was given for. Who wants to give to the Food For Hungry People and have it feed the greed of hungry Metropolitans in the old world? Who wants to support the Order of St Ignatius when $3 million dollars went to Damascus, we were told for an endowment fund for scholarships. A few days ago on this website someone defended (perhaps some of) the money being used to build a wing at the Balamand. The question is how much of the $3 million went for either. Everyone knows that a positive decison from the Holy Synod requires a FEE, just as the priest were taught (who supported this whole disaster) to charge FEES for weddings, funerals and baptisms (always cash, mind you). Do we want to import these corrupt practices here as well? The Lord said to Peter, "Feed My SHEEP, not bleed my sheep."
#2.1.2
anonymous
on
2009-03-28 04:54
Aahhh the crux of the matter. Money in the wrong places. Having given up an opportunity for "worldly benefits" too many clergy live for those "stole fees". Byzantine hoopla. And Met P encourages this. What a real stipend for a Priest? No. Perhaps bribe him so he in his human failing will side with that which normally not permitted in the Church. 1st Cousin marraige, cremated loved one, why not. A Rabbi once asked me, "Why are Christian clergyman paid relatively little, and the so concerned as to donations (fees to a Priest) for a Weddding? Actual true story. We have promulgated a bad scene the fault of long standing conservative parish trustees and overly hungry clergy with sme given just too little to live on,
#2.1.2.1
Anonymous Antiochian Laymen
on
2009-03-30 18:26
I'm not sure why Michael has posted this since he gave no opinion. It would be interesting to hear a CPA speak about this. I assume he is just highlighting the difference of opinion.
As a CPA, I would assume that Michael understands the importance of an external audit, as Mark pointed out in his editorial comment. Without any sort of external verification, it would seem to me that the Archdiocese can put whatever numbers they wish to make up down on the paper for us all to see.
As a CPA, I would assume that Michael understands the importance of an external audit, as Mark pointed out in his editorial comment. Without any sort of external verification, it would seem to me that the Archdiocese can put whatever numbers they wish to make up down on the paper for us all to see.
#2.2
Anonymous
on
2009-03-27 11:51
Anon 2.1: I've done non-profiit audits for almost 30 years, so I know what all that stuff is. I've never seen a report from the AOC, so I don't know how much detail they show. My original point was the conflicting statements.
Anon 2.2: Yes, the AOA, just as with the GOA and the SOA, is big enough that they should have an outside audit. And a reasonable person could surmise that resistance to a certified audit means that something ain't kosher.
Anon 2.2: Yes, the AOA, just as with the GOA and the SOA, is big enough that they should have an outside audit. And a reasonable person could surmise that resistance to a certified audit means that something ain't kosher.
#2.2.1
Michael Strelka, CPA
on
2009-03-28 12:34
As you might expect, I'm all for external audits. What I'm getting at is there is this direct conflict between what two different priests has now said, and what +Philip has said. It might be true that they have sent financial reports to all the parishes, but how much detail is contained in those reports (including balance sheet data) only those who have received them can tell. And, just as with the OCA, exactly what entities are contained in those financial reports is important (Antiochian Village, Order of St Ignatius, SOYO, etc etc)
What I have noticed is that the 2009 budget appeared in Word Magazine, but no 2008 financial statements, as far as I can tell.
What I have noticed is that the 2009 budget appeared in Word Magazine, but no 2008 financial statements, as far as I can tell.
#2.3
Michael Strelka, CPA
on
2009-03-27 12:34
The fin. rpt. of the Ant Arch'd shows AMT BUDGETED aNd then always AMOUND DISBURSED. Never a breakdown who got what! No one KNOWS or will ever KNOW thanks to Met P as what are amts in tyhe Cash Reserves, Endowments, etc. Well said by a prev. emailer, If yOu tell them they will not give". ....
#2.3.1
ANONYMOUS
on
2009-03-27 17:27
Completely correct. Metropolitan Philip controls ALL including only 3 people who answer to him obeying or being eliminated. A strong leader his followers claim as long as he is in full control. His Trustees like "sheep" awaiting their cherished "Gold Medals" and overlooking transparency of any kind. One layman who once attended stated, "Ever heard of an organization that could'nt (or would'nt) give its TOTAL ASSETS ?? He was so disturbed he stopped all giving save to his parish church only.
#2.3.1.1
Anonymous
on
2009-03-29 22:11
This is certainly one aspect that deserves attention. Was it not because the synod was unified against this decision that Metropolitan Philip spoke of disunity? Absolutely! Why? He wanted the Palestinian MONEY. There was no disunity amongst the Bishops. They each have their own minds and they were against his reinstatement. What else needs to happen before the people wake up. *MOST OF THE DIOCESAN BISHOPS HAVE INTEGRITY, RESPECT FOR THE SCRIPTURE, RESPECT FOR THE HOLY CANONS. THEY LOVE ALL THE PEOPLE RICH OR POOR*, ARAB, GREEK, SERB, RUSSIAN AND AMERICAN, COVERT OR CRADLE. ALL WERE TREATED ALIKE. THIS WAS THE CAUSE OF DISUNITY --- DISUNITY WITH METROPOLITAN PHILIP.* THEY DO NOT LOVE MONEY MORE THAN CHRIST, HIS CHURCH AND HIS PEOPLE!
#3
again and again scandalized
on
2009-03-27 08:05
I am a convert to OCA. Reading about all this commotion, Antiochians, Romanisns, Russians (words used only for identification) it would seem now is the time for the Orthodox in America to unite. The unhappiness with our hierarchs would seem to indicate it is time to change our way of thinking and become ORTHODOX (no words used for identification.) Admittedly the path this would demand seems almost insurmountable yey for our own souls and with the help of the Lord God it might be possible.
#3.1
Joe Quinton
on
2009-03-28 10:44
Mark, (et al)
Perhaps it is time for the Orthodox Priests & People to move on, together & towards each other, leaving the bishops and above as a free-floating apex to a pyramid . . . with nobody to "govern" underneath.
The parishes that can successfully ignore and sideline them seem to be the happiest and most balanced; while those most caught up in their clutches seem to be the most psychologically damaged.
True, it was never meant to be so, but ever since the rise of Constantine, it has been so. And may be irretrievably so.
Perhaps the noise we are hearing is the keening in the "wake" for Constantinian ecclesiology.
[Just ask the Irish what a "wake" fully is. From my elementary understanding, a "wake" happens in this sequence: (1) someone dies, (2) their Requiem Mass is held, (3) after that Mass, the relatives gather to mourn the departed - with much keening going on.]
(editor's note: Not ready to give up on diocesan bishops as opposed to charismatic ones quite yet, John!)
Perhaps it is time for the Orthodox Priests & People to move on, together & towards each other, leaving the bishops and above as a free-floating apex to a pyramid . . . with nobody to "govern" underneath.
The parishes that can successfully ignore and sideline them seem to be the happiest and most balanced; while those most caught up in their clutches seem to be the most psychologically damaged.
True, it was never meant to be so, but ever since the rise of Constantine, it has been so. And may be irretrievably so.
Perhaps the noise we are hearing is the keening in the "wake" for Constantinian ecclesiology.
[Just ask the Irish what a "wake" fully is. From my elementary understanding, a "wake" happens in this sequence: (1) someone dies, (2) their Requiem Mass is held, (3) after that Mass, the relatives gather to mourn the departed - with much keening going on.]
(editor's note: Not ready to give up on diocesan bishops as opposed to charismatic ones quite yet, John!)
#3.1.1
John B
on
2009-03-30 13:51
Supporters of the Metropolitan, where is your response?? This is truly disturbing! What are we going to do about this? How can we go on supporting the Archdiocese when sexual offenders are reinstated as auxiliary bishops? Where is the Metropolitan's response?
#4
David Feliciano
on
2009-03-27 19:36
Hello Mark, it appears that the St. Tihkon's monastery/bookstore financial reports are on line, any thoughts?
#5
Reader Michael
on
2009-03-28 03:21
I agree, to get the facts straight, he was taken to the casino with parishioners who took him there. Also, I don't care what people say. He is a great bishop and will continue to do God's work. Bishops, Clergy are not robots, not a mold of what most people think idealistically. Yes there is responsibility to these positions, but realistically at the same time do they have to be put down for living like 99.9% of normal civilized people. Give the man a break, give them all a break, especially the Metropolitan. Give all our bishops and clergy a break. Please quit stirring the jar, so that the oil may begin to float on top of the water and people will start to see things clearly rather than confused and mixed up.
Through confession and repentance, Bishop DEMETRI was absolved. Else why do we confess.
The Lord's prayer states, "forgive us our trespasses, as we FORGIVE those who have trespassed against us."
Check yourselves first, I try to do this daily but fail at times too.
Matt. 7:1 "Do not judge, or you too will be judged."
This website is full of hypocrisies and delusions. Please post the entire message else do not post at all without permission, I have a text version of this comment because I know what kind of an editor you are from observing these comments.
This so called Abdul Khoury or whatever his name is who writes these mysterious letters has a personal vendeta towards the archdiocese and causing ill will amongst Christians in general. For all we know he could be Mister Stokoe himself, or even me, or Joe Smith, or whoever. Anyone with angst can write anything and get it across the country asap since it is intertwined. Do you understand.
Do people actually enjoy learning more about these delusions and uninformed information that is full of untruths when in fact it is the individuals own perceptions being skewed because they seek skewed information. I suggest you all who are stating canon law or whatnot start to focus more on the actual history of the archdiocese and especially the structure and role of how it works and where it came from. Learn more about the faith as a whole rather than garbage you hear. I searched hard enough I guarantee I can find dirt and make stuff up to sound like the truth.
Please. I beg each and everyone of you to continue the lenten journey by fasting from this website. Or at least start the fast today. Many people have become more focused on these posts than what the faith is all about.
Much love and God bless to all who are wasting their valuable time on this earth and missing the target by obsessing about ill informed information and skewed point of views.
Forgive me a sinner.
A brother in Christ,
William
Through confession and repentance, Bishop DEMETRI was absolved. Else why do we confess.
The Lord's prayer states, "forgive us our trespasses, as we FORGIVE those who have trespassed against us."
Check yourselves first, I try to do this daily but fail at times too.
Matt. 7:1 "Do not judge, or you too will be judged."
This website is full of hypocrisies and delusions. Please post the entire message else do not post at all without permission, I have a text version of this comment because I know what kind of an editor you are from observing these comments.
This so called Abdul Khoury or whatever his name is who writes these mysterious letters has a personal vendeta towards the archdiocese and causing ill will amongst Christians in general. For all we know he could be Mister Stokoe himself, or even me, or Joe Smith, or whoever. Anyone with angst can write anything and get it across the country asap since it is intertwined. Do you understand.
Do people actually enjoy learning more about these delusions and uninformed information that is full of untruths when in fact it is the individuals own perceptions being skewed because they seek skewed information. I suggest you all who are stating canon law or whatnot start to focus more on the actual history of the archdiocese and especially the structure and role of how it works and where it came from. Learn more about the faith as a whole rather than garbage you hear. I searched hard enough I guarantee I can find dirt and make stuff up to sound like the truth.
Please. I beg each and everyone of you to continue the lenten journey by fasting from this website. Or at least start the fast today. Many people have become more focused on these posts than what the faith is all about.
Much love and God bless to all who are wasting their valuable time on this earth and missing the target by obsessing about ill informed information and skewed point of views.
Forgive me a sinner.
A brother in Christ,
William
#6
William
on
2009-03-28 13:04
"Through confession and repentance, Bishop DEMETRI was absolved. Else why do we confess. "
I've read quite a few of the ancient canons of the church and it's funny, none of the canons ever make the provision that confession absolves a cleric from being deposed for a deposable offense. By confessing his sins the Bishop prevents himself from being excommunicated from the Church on account of nonrepentance of sins, but it does not "save" his ecclesiastical position.
I've read quite a few of the ancient canons of the church and it's funny, none of the canons ever make the provision that confession absolves a cleric from being deposed for a deposable offense. By confessing his sins the Bishop prevents himself from being excommunicated from the Church on account of nonrepentance of sins, but it does not "save" his ecclesiastical position.
#6.1
Anonymous
on
2009-03-30 06:01
So much for holiness. If a Bishop doesn't have to be beyond reproach don't lecture me about fasting or judge me if I choose to eat steak and eggs everyday of the fast. If everything goes why not just be Episcopalians. Wait, I bet they wouldn't even have let this happen.
#6.2
David Lemont
on
2009-03-30 10:47
Mr. Stokoe,
This "comment" is more of a question for you and those "in the know" so to speak, who understand all this stuff. Thus, I do not know if you want to put it in the comments, or put it under another thread. I may be in the wrong place to even send this message to you. If I am, forgive me and I look to be corrected!
I was looking at the Antiochian jurisdiction's homepage and saw a response from Met. Phillip to the Council of Presbyters of the Diocese of Wichita and Mid-America. There is something I do not understand.
http://www.antiochian.org/node/19042
If I am reading the answers to Question 5 and Question 6 correctly, it appears that the Pittsburgh Constitution granting self-rule to the Antiochians never made it into the Patriarchal Constitution.
Would this be an indicator that the Patriarch never considered the Antiochian's to have self-rule in the first place? Thus the so called changes to the jurisdiction would be under his purview?
Thanks for your thoughts and the time it takes for your research and to maintain this website. I also want to say thank you for serving on the MC. God bless you in these endeavors for His Glory.
Philippa
(editor's note: I would suggest that whether or not the Archdicoese has self rule and what that means is one of the questions under discussion. In the eyes of the Synod of Antioch and the Metropolitan of the Archdiocese, it apparently does not as it does not even have the ability to regulate its internal life in the most fundamental ways.)
This "comment" is more of a question for you and those "in the know" so to speak, who understand all this stuff. Thus, I do not know if you want to put it in the comments, or put it under another thread. I may be in the wrong place to even send this message to you. If I am, forgive me and I look to be corrected!
I was looking at the Antiochian jurisdiction's homepage and saw a response from Met. Phillip to the Council of Presbyters of the Diocese of Wichita and Mid-America. There is something I do not understand.
http://www.antiochian.org/node/19042
If I am reading the answers to Question 5 and Question 6 correctly, it appears that the Pittsburgh Constitution granting self-rule to the Antiochians never made it into the Patriarchal Constitution.
Would this be an indicator that the Patriarch never considered the Antiochian's to have self-rule in the first place? Thus the so called changes to the jurisdiction would be under his purview?
Thanks for your thoughts and the time it takes for your research and to maintain this website. I also want to say thank you for serving on the MC. God bless you in these endeavors for His Glory.
Philippa
(editor's note: I would suggest that whether or not the Archdicoese has self rule and what that means is one of the questions under discussion. In the eyes of the Synod of Antioch and the Metropolitan of the Archdiocese, it apparently does not as it does not even have the ability to regulate its internal life in the most fundamental ways.)
#7
Philippa
on
2009-03-29 11:11
It's sad to think that many televangelists hold themselves to a higher standard of financial accountability than our local Orthodox jurisdictions, but it's true. Even Oral Roberts University, recently rocked by a major financial scandal, is now an accredited member of the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability (http://www.ecfa.org).
The ECFA requires that its members adhere to the Seven Standards of Responsible Stewardship™. The first is a commitment to certain Protestant theological standards, some of which conflict with the Orthodox Faith. The second requires that an organization have a board of directors of at least five members, the majority of which must be independent. While this second standard would be incompatible with the hierarchical nature of our Orthodox jurisdictions, this standard could and should certainly be met by our seminaries, auxiliary organizations like the Order of St. Ignatius and Leadership 100, and SCOBA organizations such as OCMC and IOCC.
I can see no legitimate reason whatsoever why our local Orthodox jurisdictions could not meet and should not be required to meet ECFA Standards 3-7. Given the questionable financial practices of the GOA during the tenure of Abp. Spyridon, the mind-boggling misappropriation of OCA funds under Metrs. Theodosius and Herman, and the questions now being raised about expenditures in the Antiochian Archdiocese under and, perhaps, by Metr. Philip, now is the time for a concerted effort by the clergy and laity of all the involved jurisdictions to implement and maintain standards of financial accountability that will help to restore credibility to our jurisdictional administrative structures, if not to the hierarchs individually who have betrayed our trust. This should be a major focus of dicussion at the parish, diocesan, and jurisdictional levels until we can no longer imagine going forward without proper financial accountability standards in place.
By their own actions, our hierarchs and administrative bodies at the parish, diocesan, and jurisdictional levels have shown us that we can no longer simply trust them to do the right thing with the monies donated by the faithful to further God's work in the world. If a few complain that some of the requirements seem overly strict, we must maintain our resolve, for those in charge have brought this on themselves.
The ECFA requires that its members adhere to the Seven Standards of Responsible Stewardship™. The first is a commitment to certain Protestant theological standards, some of which conflict with the Orthodox Faith. The second requires that an organization have a board of directors of at least five members, the majority of which must be independent. While this second standard would be incompatible with the hierarchical nature of our Orthodox jurisdictions, this standard could and should certainly be met by our seminaries, auxiliary organizations like the Order of St. Ignatius and Leadership 100, and SCOBA organizations such as OCMC and IOCC.
I can see no legitimate reason whatsoever why our local Orthodox jurisdictions could not meet and should not be required to meet ECFA Standards 3-7. Given the questionable financial practices of the GOA during the tenure of Abp. Spyridon, the mind-boggling misappropriation of OCA funds under Metrs. Theodosius and Herman, and the questions now being raised about expenditures in the Antiochian Archdiocese under and, perhaps, by Metr. Philip, now is the time for a concerted effort by the clergy and laity of all the involved jurisdictions to implement and maintain standards of financial accountability that will help to restore credibility to our jurisdictional administrative structures, if not to the hierarchs individually who have betrayed our trust. This should be a major focus of dicussion at the parish, diocesan, and jurisdictional levels until we can no longer imagine going forward without proper financial accountability standards in place.
By their own actions, our hierarchs and administrative bodies at the parish, diocesan, and jurisdictional levels have shown us that we can no longer simply trust them to do the right thing with the monies donated by the faithful to further God's work in the world. If a few complain that some of the requirements seem overly strict, we must maintain our resolve, for those in charge have brought this on themselves.
#8
Concerned member of the Order of St. Ignatius
on
2009-03-30 12:18
Don't you understand that no outside audit ever held or will ever be held by anyone. Met P will evade and control all and that is why I left the Order years ago. Only gifts now directly to Priest stipend, the treasurerfor utilities,etc and direct charitable giving.
#8.1
Anonymous(western Diocese now Aux. region)
on
2009-03-30 18:16
I wonder why the laymen must be "anonymous?' Does the primate hold control over where you will live and if you can make a living?
I regret the need to be anonymous, to protect my family. I just hope those who can will have the courage to idenitfy themselves.
Pray for me that if I need to speak out and indentify myself, I will have the courage to do so....
I regret the need to be anonymous, to protect my family. I just hope those who can will have the courage to idenitfy themselves.
Pray for me that if I need to speak out and indentify myself, I will have the courage to do so....
#9
Antionymous
on
2009-03-31 04:00
Yes Anonymous yourself - fear prohibits clergy, trustees and prin. laymen from speaking out. Vacation bound to Calif. for a so called "Convention" will bringing nothing but the adulation that the Antiochean hierarch seeks. Poor Bishops all "enthroned" and then lowered to tyhe "ceremonial". Many know this to be true but cannot speak out. Think "we" can have an AOCNews.org. Very unlikely.
#9.1
ANONYMOUS
on
2009-04-02 11:15
There are several valid reasons why laymen would want to remain anonymous when posting here. In an environment where six diocesan bishops can be summarily dethroned without cause, notice, or explanation, the probability of arbirtrary retribution goes from always a possibility to near certainty.
At this point, would anyone be surprised to hear of a layman publicly chastised or even denied communion because they had the audacity to speak out against the actions of Metr. Philip and the rest of the Holy Synod? Parish council members found speaking out could be removed from office with a call from Englewood to their pastor. Seminarians who speak out would certainly lose any chance of ever being ordained in not only the AOCA, but most likely the OCA and GOA, as well.
Some may wish to remain anonymous not for fear of reaction against themselves, but against their parish priest or even their bishop. Does anyone think it would bode well for a bishop or priest with His Eminence if it were found that a large number of those who protest came from those under his charge?
In the foul atmosphere of distrust, suspicion, and even ethnic rivalry created by Metr. Philip, the Holy Synod, and the four pastors in Detroit by their recent actions, only one thing is clear: no one is safe.
Sic semper tyrannis,
Nemo
(Editor's note: Stop it. Perfect love casts out fear, and trying to scare people to not do the right thing, or even do the wrong thing, is not right. Clearly there is a problem in the Archdiocese that a culture of fear exists among many, well, almost all, clergy that dare to disagree with the Metropolitan. I have had a score of letters from priests, but not one will sign his real name, and begs me to protect them. How can that be healthy? Machiavelli wrote it is better to be feared than loved. Christ did not. And I refuse to believe Metropolitan Philip, or any of the other Bishops, prefers Machiavelli to Christ. So, what do we do about it? Bitch? Or deal with it openly? Because in the end, clergy will choose to go elsewhere, where fear does not reign. It is one of the issues that needs to be addressed openly, and neither ignored or covered up. )
At this point, would anyone be surprised to hear of a layman publicly chastised or even denied communion because they had the audacity to speak out against the actions of Metr. Philip and the rest of the Holy Synod? Parish council members found speaking out could be removed from office with a call from Englewood to their pastor. Seminarians who speak out would certainly lose any chance of ever being ordained in not only the AOCA, but most likely the OCA and GOA, as well.
Some may wish to remain anonymous not for fear of reaction against themselves, but against their parish priest or even their bishop. Does anyone think it would bode well for a bishop or priest with His Eminence if it were found that a large number of those who protest came from those under his charge?
In the foul atmosphere of distrust, suspicion, and even ethnic rivalry created by Metr. Philip, the Holy Synod, and the four pastors in Detroit by their recent actions, only one thing is clear: no one is safe.
Sic semper tyrannis,
Nemo
(Editor's note: Stop it. Perfect love casts out fear, and trying to scare people to not do the right thing, or even do the wrong thing, is not right. Clearly there is a problem in the Archdiocese that a culture of fear exists among many, well, almost all, clergy that dare to disagree with the Metropolitan. I have had a score of letters from priests, but not one will sign his real name, and begs me to protect them. How can that be healthy? Machiavelli wrote it is better to be feared than loved. Christ did not. And I refuse to believe Metropolitan Philip, or any of the other Bishops, prefers Machiavelli to Christ. So, what do we do about it? Bitch? Or deal with it openly? Because in the end, clergy will choose to go elsewhere, where fear does not reign. It is one of the issues that needs to be addressed openly, and neither ignored or covered up. )
#9.2
Nemo
on
2009-04-02 12:54
To the editor:
Mark, I believe you misinterpreted my comments. I wasn't making threats; I was simply stating the sad but obvious state of things.
You say that you don't believe that Metr. Philip prefers Machiavelli to Christ, but isn't that exactly what the essay by "Marlin Perkins" implies? In the Arab model of leadership, fear and love are inextricably bound. For those who lead as Metr. Philip does, dissent is indistinguishable from disloyalty.
When Frs. Namie and Bitar openly disagreed with Metr. Philip, those weren't merely differences of opinion but were to be seen, from the viewpoint of the strong Arab leader, as personal betrayals by longtime friends. As a strong Arab leader must show no signs of weakness if he is to remain effective, dissent/betrayal must be dealt with in the strongest possible fashion.
You say that you have a score of letters from Antiochian clergy, but not one will sign his name? Perhaps it's because they've already learned from experience the meaning of the Japanese proverb: "The tallest blade of grass is the first to be cut."
Fr. John Morris claims that Metr. Philip is not a tyrant. Wiktionary.org defines a tyrant as "an absolute ruler who governs without restriction." It also defines a despot as "a ruler with absolute power; a tyrant." After this recent decree on his behest from the Holy Synod, what else can we call Metr. Philip but a tyrant and a despot? Sadly, isn't that what the four priests in Detroit want, nay, need him to be?
(Editor's note: Thanks for the clarification. )
Mark, I believe you misinterpreted my comments. I wasn't making threats; I was simply stating the sad but obvious state of things.
You say that you don't believe that Metr. Philip prefers Machiavelli to Christ, but isn't that exactly what the essay by "Marlin Perkins" implies? In the Arab model of leadership, fear and love are inextricably bound. For those who lead as Metr. Philip does, dissent is indistinguishable from disloyalty.
When Frs. Namie and Bitar openly disagreed with Metr. Philip, those weren't merely differences of opinion but were to be seen, from the viewpoint of the strong Arab leader, as personal betrayals by longtime friends. As a strong Arab leader must show no signs of weakness if he is to remain effective, dissent/betrayal must be dealt with in the strongest possible fashion.
You say that you have a score of letters from Antiochian clergy, but not one will sign his name? Perhaps it's because they've already learned from experience the meaning of the Japanese proverb: "The tallest blade of grass is the first to be cut."
Fr. John Morris claims that Metr. Philip is not a tyrant. Wiktionary.org defines a tyrant as "an absolute ruler who governs without restriction." It also defines a despot as "a ruler with absolute power; a tyrant." After this recent decree on his behest from the Holy Synod, what else can we call Metr. Philip but a tyrant and a despot? Sadly, isn't that what the four priests in Detroit want, nay, need him to be?
(Editor's note: Thanks for the clarification. )
#9.2.1
Nemo
on
2009-04-02 15:00
The author does not allow comments to this entry
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