Monday, March 30. 2009
Replies, but no answers
Your reactions to Metropolitan Philip's reply to the Priests of Wichita are welcome.
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So, each auxiliary bishop, who by definition is only an arm of his Ordinary, is seated on the local synod with voice and vote, with only one bishop having jurisdiction (Met Philip)?
I am certain these newly demoted auxiliary bishops have such a great working relationship with the Metropolitan based on trust and mutual respect that they will have no problem speaking up in opposition to, and/or voting against their Ordinary.
Self Rule HAS been preserved in the best way possible! Met Philip is ruling everything himself. What is so hard to understand?
May God have mercy on the Metropolitan.
May God restore canonical order to the Self Ruling AOA!
May God preserve and defend the canonically elected and enthroned diocesan bishops of the AOA!
I am certain these newly demoted auxiliary bishops have such a great working relationship with the Metropolitan based on trust and mutual respect that they will have no problem speaking up in opposition to, and/or voting against their Ordinary.
Self Rule HAS been preserved in the best way possible! Met Philip is ruling everything himself. What is so hard to understand?
May God have mercy on the Metropolitan.
May God restore canonical order to the Self Ruling AOA!
May God preserve and defend the canonically elected and enthroned diocesan bishops of the AOA!
#1
Alexander Vranich
on
2009-03-30 16:26
Well put and such excellent and very thorough examination and conclusions by M. Stokoe. Just became knowledgeable of the website as we have no such vehicle and never will. The Old Church Mentality amongst the Greek, Antiochian and Romanian is self evident with control from on far. Only a United Orth Church in a free land will truly witness to America. God bless our ethnic connections (and parishes) as they are not Christ like and never will be.
#1.1
Anonymous Antiochian Clergyman (So.Diocese)
on
2009-03-30 17:48
Actually the Constitution of the AOCA states that the auxiliary Bishop does not have a vote on the local synod. Defacto --- nly Metropolitan Philip has a vote and there is NO SYNOD! This is precisely the narrow administrative change he spoke about, not to mention moving Bishops who do not wish to be moved. Why can't he simply say that he and several of his buddies from Detroit, Montreal and OK City decided they have a better way to organize the church than the Holy Fathers of the Sevene Ecumenical Councils and the experience of Two Thousand Years of Church History --- it is called the Englewood Papacy, run with the Cardinals from Montreal, Detroit, and Oklahoma City.
#1.2
anonymous antiochian clergyman
on
2009-03-30 21:04
Actually the Constitutions of the Archdiocese state that there are to be diocesan bishops constituting the Holy Synod of the Archdiocese and that one auxiliary bishop may be consecrated to assist the Metropolitan, which auxiliary bishop does not have a vote on the Holy Synod.
#1.2.1
Subdeacon David Yetter
on
2009-04-02 03:59
You have to be kidding me. Mike you had a misspelling in your statement by the way. You can find it since you like digging dirt.
Anyways, to get back, the Metropolitan did his best to simplify the answers. You can NOT go against the Patriarchate. It has an always will be one of the 5 churches. I'm American and it would have been cool if there was a 6th church, however that will not happen.
The OLD world thinking, helped keep the church the way it is. Think about it, look at America, there are over 3,000 denominations because people don't like it, they make their own. That is the western perspective. Proven, like it or not.
Do not think that just because they think OLD school, they don't know what they are doing, in fact they are protecting this archdiocese from becoming a fanatical, individualized church.
It is the True church, not a shopping mall church.
God bless you all and myself.
William
Anyways, to get back, the Metropolitan did his best to simplify the answers. You can NOT go against the Patriarchate. It has an always will be one of the 5 churches. I'm American and it would have been cool if there was a 6th church, however that will not happen.
The OLD world thinking, helped keep the church the way it is. Think about it, look at America, there are over 3,000 denominations because people don't like it, they make their own. That is the western perspective. Proven, like it or not.
Do not think that just because they think OLD school, they don't know what they are doing, in fact they are protecting this archdiocese from becoming a fanatical, individualized church.
It is the True church, not a shopping mall church.
God bless you all and myself.
William
#2
William
on
2009-03-30 17:33
William wrote:
1) "It has an always will be one of the 5 churches. I'm American and it would have been cool if there was a 6th church, however that will not happen."
** I hope you are aware that there are more than a dozen autocephalous Orthodox Churches in the world.
2) "Do not think that just because they think OLD school, they don't know what they are doing, in fact they are protecting this archdiocese from becoming a fanatical, individualized church."
** That's an interesting take on the situation, which does not seem to reflect reality. However, even if one is willing to accept your premise, the Church in theory would/should not deal with this mess this way. As Fr Meyendorff was one to point out, hierarchs aren't "above and outside" the rest of the Church. Hierarchy does NOT mean the guys with the most mitres tell those with fewer or none what to do. Such an approach ignores true ecclesiology and our own humanity in the image and likeness of the Trinity. Metropolitan Philip has just reinforced the Papal model with his response, and it makes many of us question many things.
1) "It has an always will be one of the 5 churches. I'm American and it would have been cool if there was a 6th church, however that will not happen."
** I hope you are aware that there are more than a dozen autocephalous Orthodox Churches in the world.
2) "Do not think that just because they think OLD school, they don't know what they are doing, in fact they are protecting this archdiocese from becoming a fanatical, individualized church."
** That's an interesting take on the situation, which does not seem to reflect reality. However, even if one is willing to accept your premise, the Church in theory would/should not deal with this mess this way. As Fr Meyendorff was one to point out, hierarchs aren't "above and outside" the rest of the Church. Hierarchy does NOT mean the guys with the most mitres tell those with fewer or none what to do. Such an approach ignores true ecclesiology and our own humanity in the image and likeness of the Trinity. Metropolitan Philip has just reinforced the Papal model with his response, and it makes many of us question many things.
#2.1
Anonymous for a reason
on
2009-03-30 18:12
Come on William wake up! In your perspective Moscow should still be under Constantinople.
#2.2
Anonymous
on
2009-03-30 19:59
William,
While there are many problems with your reasoning and your interpretation, I will point out just one: your support of the so-called OLD world.
You compare and contrast the "old" world with the "new" world of America. You argue that "denominationalism" is part of the new world. In some respects, you are correct. However, you are mistaken if you think that the "old" world thinking preserved the Church and prevented denominations.
What primarily prevented denominations was the civil government that legally forced orthodoxy on society. There have always been (read the New Testament) and always will be (read this site!!!) division in the Church. This is nothing new and it will not go away. But the only difference between America and the "old" world in this respect is that America gives the people freedom to choose and follow a religion.
What realistically happened since at least Constantine is that many people went to church, but only because that was what you were supposed to do and that it was the emperor said to do. What we are seeing in the "old" country is a complete breakdown of religion altogether. It's no secret that Americans are some of the most "religious" people in the world, while many in the "old" world consider religion a far less important aspect of their life.
We can idolize the "old" world if we want, but this leads to the Church being completely irrelevant and we will not reach people in this modern world (both "old" and "new"). Or, we can come to grips with the fact that our "old" world style of church politics is just as irrelevant in the "old" world as it is in the new and work towards an improvement.
While there are many problems with your reasoning and your interpretation, I will point out just one: your support of the so-called OLD world.
You compare and contrast the "old" world with the "new" world of America. You argue that "denominationalism" is part of the new world. In some respects, you are correct. However, you are mistaken if you think that the "old" world thinking preserved the Church and prevented denominations.
What primarily prevented denominations was the civil government that legally forced orthodoxy on society. There have always been (read the New Testament) and always will be (read this site!!!) division in the Church. This is nothing new and it will not go away. But the only difference between America and the "old" world in this respect is that America gives the people freedom to choose and follow a religion.
What realistically happened since at least Constantine is that many people went to church, but only because that was what you were supposed to do and that it was the emperor said to do. What we are seeing in the "old" country is a complete breakdown of religion altogether. It's no secret that Americans are some of the most "religious" people in the world, while many in the "old" world consider religion a far less important aspect of their life.
We can idolize the "old" world if we want, but this leads to the Church being completely irrelevant and we will not reach people in this modern world (both "old" and "new"). Or, we can come to grips with the fact that our "old" world style of church politics is just as irrelevant in the "old" world as it is in the new and work towards an improvement.
#2.3
Anonymous Antiochian Priest
on
2009-03-30 20:26
Dear soul,
Just because the Patriarchate, the patriarch and Metropolitan Philip are old, does not mean they have been faithful to the anciant faith, nor to the Apostolic Deposit. Metropolitan Philip delights in the fact of his departure from TRADITIONAL ORTHODOXY. Did you know he allows priests like George Shalhoub to concelebrate funerals with Roman Catholic priests? He did so about a week ago. Did you know the Patriarch concelebrates with Melkites and Maronites?...
If this is how the old world guards the faith, then let's have the tea party tonight. Do we want to continue with synods who have been schooled in money for decisions since there captivity under the Ottomans in 1453. The office of Patrairch was up for bids almost weekly. Some were patriarch more than a few times as they reaised additional funds the week after they were deposed.
Perhaps all the auxiliaries should have a fund raiser this month and Metropolitan Philip could have one the month after.
Enough of this corruption. If history teaches us anything, to quote MP, we need to break with old outdated systems that no longer works.
Just because the Patriarchate, the patriarch and Metropolitan Philip are old, does not mean they have been faithful to the anciant faith, nor to the Apostolic Deposit. Metropolitan Philip delights in the fact of his departure from TRADITIONAL ORTHODOXY. Did you know he allows priests like George Shalhoub to concelebrate funerals with Roman Catholic priests? He did so about a week ago. Did you know the Patriarch concelebrates with Melkites and Maronites?...
If this is how the old world guards the faith, then let's have the tea party tonight. Do we want to continue with synods who have been schooled in money for decisions since there captivity under the Ottomans in 1453. The office of Patrairch was up for bids almost weekly. Some were patriarch more than a few times as they reaised additional funds the week after they were deposed.
Perhaps all the auxiliaries should have a fund raiser this month and Metropolitan Philip could have one the month after.
Enough of this corruption. If history teaches us anything, to quote MP, we need to break with old outdated systems that no longer works.
#2.4
anonymous
on
2009-03-30 21:20
Dear William,
You have a very interesting "take" on Orthodox governance..."You can NOT go against the Patriarchate. It has an always will be one of the 5 churches"...REALLY? Says who?
My parish is named after St. Raphael of Brooklyn...who was at one time under censure from three of the four Eastern patriarchs. St. Raphael reflected a 2000 year history of the Eastern Church..which is one of an educated, engaged laity and lower clergy...taking to the streets if necessary to correct the hierarchs.
In 1449, the Byzantine emperor, ecumenical patriarch and most of the metropolitans signed an agreement of union with Rome..at the Council of Florence. Only one hierarch, St. Mark of Ephesus, refused. When they returned to C'nople, and the people realized what they had done, St. Sophia was abandoned by the laity...shunned right up until 1453. The Russian prelate, Isidore, was thrown into jail by the Muscovite prince for announcing the union.
Correcting our hierarchs - bishops, archbishops and patriarchs when necessary, is an essential responsibility of the laity. If you do not like that system of governance, there is another...it's called the Roman church.
This is the faith of the Orthodox...This is our responsibility.
It has been this way since the beginning. This is NOT an American invention.
Best Regards,
Dean Calvert
You have a very interesting "take" on Orthodox governance..."You can NOT go against the Patriarchate. It has an always will be one of the 5 churches"...REALLY? Says who?
My parish is named after St. Raphael of Brooklyn...who was at one time under censure from three of the four Eastern patriarchs. St. Raphael reflected a 2000 year history of the Eastern Church..which is one of an educated, engaged laity and lower clergy...taking to the streets if necessary to correct the hierarchs.
In 1449, the Byzantine emperor, ecumenical patriarch and most of the metropolitans signed an agreement of union with Rome..at the Council of Florence. Only one hierarch, St. Mark of Ephesus, refused. When they returned to C'nople, and the people realized what they had done, St. Sophia was abandoned by the laity...shunned right up until 1453. The Russian prelate, Isidore, was thrown into jail by the Muscovite prince for announcing the union.
Correcting our hierarchs - bishops, archbishops and patriarchs when necessary, is an essential responsibility of the laity. If you do not like that system of governance, there is another...it's called the Roman church.
This is the faith of the Orthodox...This is our responsibility.
It has been this way since the beginning. This is NOT an American invention.
Best Regards,
Dean Calvert
#2.5
Dean Calvert
on
2009-03-30 22:01
William wrote: "You can NOT go against the Patriarchate"
Really? Really??
You're in the wrong church... The infallible Patriarch is from Rome. Please learn something about Orthodox ecclesiology before making such ridiculous proclamations.
Forgive me if your comment was a joke.
Really? Really??
You're in the wrong church... The infallible Patriarch is from Rome. Please learn something about Orthodox ecclesiology before making such ridiculous proclamations.
Forgive me if your comment was a joke.
#2.6
David Feliciano
on
2009-03-30 22:54
Dear David and William,
I can't agree more with David's latest comments...the Church (ie the bishops, the lower clergy and the laity), working together is the age old tradition of the Orthodox. We are seeing that same tradition in action here, as we just did also in the OCA. It's an ancient Eastern tradition and it works!
It's always been interesting to me to contrast some of the recent practices, which are really nothing more than the residue of the Turkish occupation of all of the Eastern patriarchates, to the practices that I call "The Church of the first 15 centuries." One of the reasons I've noted this is that I feel strongly that the practices of the first 15 centuries are similar to the environment that we face in the modern USA.
Consider the following similarities: For the first 15 centuries, the Church grew up and resided in the only superpower on the planet (Eastern Rome then, US now), that nation had a tradition of national citizenship which superceded ethnic or tribal affiliations (Roman citizenship then, American now); that nation was an economic colossus which led to an educated and literate populace (literacy levels never fell in the East as they did in the West during the Dark Ages). All of these, in turn led to an educated and engaged laity.
I've read accounts of bishops being sent to cities, only to have the local population "return them" to the metropolitan. Additionally, we know that the laity participated in the ecumenical councils (there is debate as to whether they voted or not).
Finally, the remark of the emperor at the Council of Florence has always intrigued me. According to Syropoulos, the emperor turned to the patriarch at one point during the discussions and asked, "Why are all my brightest theologians our lay theologians?" What does that tell you about lay participation?
It was only during the Turkish period that the traditions of a monarchical hierarchy appeared, a result of the Ottoman decision to elevate the patriarch to become the head of the Rum Millet (the Orthodox nation within the Ottoman Empire). This decision was devastating to the ecumenical patriarchate, and resulted in the unleashing of nationalistic forces which eventually spawned the various national churches.
A return to the practices of the "Church of the First 15 centuries" is something that I've long thought was necessary...and is something that I think the average American would be very very comfortable in.
Once again, this is not a Protestant invention...it's simply a return to our own roots - the episcopacy, the clergy and the laity - working in symphony.
Best Regards,
Dean Calvert
I can't agree more with David's latest comments...the Church (ie the bishops, the lower clergy and the laity), working together is the age old tradition of the Orthodox. We are seeing that same tradition in action here, as we just did also in the OCA. It's an ancient Eastern tradition and it works!
It's always been interesting to me to contrast some of the recent practices, which are really nothing more than the residue of the Turkish occupation of all of the Eastern patriarchates, to the practices that I call "The Church of the first 15 centuries." One of the reasons I've noted this is that I feel strongly that the practices of the first 15 centuries are similar to the environment that we face in the modern USA.
Consider the following similarities: For the first 15 centuries, the Church grew up and resided in the only superpower on the planet (Eastern Rome then, US now), that nation had a tradition of national citizenship which superceded ethnic or tribal affiliations (Roman citizenship then, American now); that nation was an economic colossus which led to an educated and literate populace (literacy levels never fell in the East as they did in the West during the Dark Ages). All of these, in turn led to an educated and engaged laity.
I've read accounts of bishops being sent to cities, only to have the local population "return them" to the metropolitan. Additionally, we know that the laity participated in the ecumenical councils (there is debate as to whether they voted or not).
Finally, the remark of the emperor at the Council of Florence has always intrigued me. According to Syropoulos, the emperor turned to the patriarch at one point during the discussions and asked, "Why are all my brightest theologians our lay theologians?" What does that tell you about lay participation?
It was only during the Turkish period that the traditions of a monarchical hierarchy appeared, a result of the Ottoman decision to elevate the patriarch to become the head of the Rum Millet (the Orthodox nation within the Ottoman Empire). This decision was devastating to the ecumenical patriarchate, and resulted in the unleashing of nationalistic forces which eventually spawned the various national churches.
A return to the practices of the "Church of the First 15 centuries" is something that I've long thought was necessary...and is something that I think the average American would be very very comfortable in.
Once again, this is not a Protestant invention...it's simply a return to our own roots - the episcopacy, the clergy and the laity - working in symphony.
Best Regards,
Dean Calvert
#2.6.1
Dean Calvert
on
2009-04-01 08:21
{{{You can NOT go against the Patriarchate. It has an always will be one of the 5 churches.}}}
I assume you "still" obey the bishop of Rome?
I assume you "still" obey the bishop of Rome?
#2.7
Antionymous
on
2009-03-31 03:54
Dear William,
To see a purely Orthodox model for North America, please read E Pluribus Unum: One Church From Many? by George C. Michalopulos, at the American Orthodox Institute (URL: http://www.aoiusa.org/main/page.php?page_id=127).
As to your postings, which I've had the misfortune to read, you make a great argument for getting rid of the outdated and corrupt model of church governance. Honestly, the forces of change could not have a better poster child for a bete noire than you. As with the ALL CAPS GUY, I wish you would continue posting.
Best regards, Carl
To see a purely Orthodox model for North America, please read E Pluribus Unum: One Church From Many? by George C. Michalopulos, at the American Orthodox Institute (URL: http://www.aoiusa.org/main/page.php?page_id=127).
As to your postings, which I've had the misfortune to read, you make a great argument for getting rid of the outdated and corrupt model of church governance. Honestly, the forces of change could not have a better poster child for a bete noire than you. As with the ALL CAPS GUY, I wish you would continue posting.
Best regards, Carl
#2.8
Carl
on
2009-03-31 08:13
Dear Mark Stokoe,
I thank God for this website. If it did not exist, the whole disturbing business and actions of +Philip would be "covered up," and the Metropolitan could continue his complete domination of the Archdiocese. He may "get away" with his actions, but the damage inflicted upon the Antiochian Orthodox Church in America will not easily be repaired. I weep for the future of Orthodoxy in this country if his egregious mistakes are not rescinded.
I pray for Bishop Mark and Bishop Basil who have been deeply hurt by their leader's actions. I hope there is a way out of this terrible situation.
I thank God for this website. If it did not exist, the whole disturbing business and actions of +Philip would be "covered up," and the Metropolitan could continue his complete domination of the Archdiocese. He may "get away" with his actions, but the damage inflicted upon the Antiochian Orthodox Church in America will not easily be repaired. I weep for the future of Orthodoxy in this country if his egregious mistakes are not rescinded.
I pray for Bishop Mark and Bishop Basil who have been deeply hurt by their leader's actions. I hope there is a way out of this terrible situation.
#3
anon
on
2009-03-30 17:33
We too pray for Bishops Mark & Basil, true leaders of spiritual nature. The western despot is known as a double "agent" reporting to Damascus and standing in line they'll choose him as a fellow "Damascene" which he is. The others weak at best perhaps with the exception of Bp Alexander of Canada who wavers. All will be praised and cajoled on Apr 24 in Englewood. Wish Met P. ould retire and isn't there an age limit. Our Roman friends have one?
#3.1
Anonymous Parish Council Member
on
2009-03-30 22:57
"...that they must deal with something in America, they plan and do it without even asking what, in this particular case, the Americans may think about it. "
The fact is, Americans make up about 1% of the Orthodox world. The Patriarchates have bigger fish to fry.
(Editor's note: I suppose you are correct. But why is it I can't get that nagging little whisper of the Gospel out of my ear:
3 So He told them this parable, saying, 4 “What man among you, if he has a hundred sheep and has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open pasture and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 “When he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 “And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’
and again
8 “Or what woman, if she has ten silver coins and loses one coin, does not light a lamp and sweep the house and search carefully until she finds it? 9 “When she has found it, she calls together her friends and neighbors, saying, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found the coin which I had lost!’
While we are not lost, nor in need of repentence for being American, the Gospel of Luke still speaks louder to us than your ways of the world - and always will.)
The fact is, Americans make up about 1% of the Orthodox world. The Patriarchates have bigger fish to fry.
(Editor's note: I suppose you are correct. But why is it I can't get that nagging little whisper of the Gospel out of my ear:
3 So He told them this parable, saying, 4 “What man among you, if he has a hundred sheep and has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open pasture and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 “When he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 “And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’
and again
8 “Or what woman, if she has ten silver coins and loses one coin, does not light a lamp and sweep the house and search carefully until she finds it? 9 “When she has found it, she calls together her friends and neighbors, saying, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found the coin which I had lost!’
While we are not lost, nor in need of repentence for being American, the Gospel of Luke still speaks louder to us than your ways of the world - and always will.)
#4
Russian Observer
on
2009-03-30 23:14
William,
You can NOT go against the Patriarchate. It has an always will be one of the 5 churches. I'm American and it would have been cool if there was a 6th church, however that will not happen.
That is an odd view, as it assumes Christ's Church reached a point of stasis centuries ago. If that is to be the case, then this True Faith is demographically doomed.
Prior practice and the political and cultural milieu of long-gone, dead-and-buried, never-coming-back Byzantium do not persuade. Leaving aside the subtleties of primacy, there is nothing particularly magical about the geographic Patriarchates. The one in Antioch is technically vacant, the Patriarch now being in Damascus. The one in Istanbul--excuse me, Constantinople--well, nothing need be said.
Really, the current structure is as much a product of the Ottoman empire as it is Byzantium. We need more Bishops with more Sees and more self-rule, culminating in autocephalous Churches on all continents. What solace will it be to the overseas Patriarchs when the US properties are auctioned off? How long do we watch passively as televangelists stake their fraudulent claims in the developing world while Orthodox hierarchs dispute jurisdiction?
A shame and a scandal.
You can NOT go against the Patriarchate. It has an always will be one of the 5 churches. I'm American and it would have been cool if there was a 6th church, however that will not happen.
That is an odd view, as it assumes Christ's Church reached a point of stasis centuries ago. If that is to be the case, then this True Faith is demographically doomed.
Prior practice and the political and cultural milieu of long-gone, dead-and-buried, never-coming-back Byzantium do not persuade. Leaving aside the subtleties of primacy, there is nothing particularly magical about the geographic Patriarchates. The one in Antioch is technically vacant, the Patriarch now being in Damascus. The one in Istanbul--excuse me, Constantinople--well, nothing need be said.
Really, the current structure is as much a product of the Ottoman empire as it is Byzantium. We need more Bishops with more Sees and more self-rule, culminating in autocephalous Churches on all continents. What solace will it be to the overseas Patriarchs when the US properties are auctioned off? How long do we watch passively as televangelists stake their fraudulent claims in the developing world while Orthodox hierarchs dispute jurisdiction?
A shame and a scandal.
#5
Douglas
on
2009-03-31 05:35
Russian observer,
The fact is, Americans make up about 1% of the Orthodox world. The Patriarchates have bigger fish to fry.
Do they? Orthodox homelands are in demographic freefall and they know it. Thus the continued jurisdictional fights in America, Australia and elsewhere.
The fact is, Americans make up about 1% of the Orthodox world. The Patriarchates have bigger fish to fry.
Do they? Orthodox homelands are in demographic freefall and they know it. Thus the continued jurisdictional fights in America, Australia and elsewhere.
#6
Douglas
on
2009-03-31 05:42
"The fact is, Americans make up about 1% of the Orthodox world. The Patriarchates have bigger fish to fry."
The patriarchates? which ones? 1% isnt that significant? that is four times larger than the EP, Antioch and Alexandria combimned. The EP has close to 3,000 members. The Other two claim to about 300,000 each but this is probably inflated.
Of course my calculations are rudimentary. 606,000/250,000,000 =0.0024
I guess my point is when did size of a church become more important than the Gospel. It didnt. We must keep the faith unblemished which means no popes. I find it odd that diocesan bshops can be dethroned by a synod of which they are not a part of nor have a vote in. reminds me of the Synod of the Oak.
The patriarchates? which ones? 1% isnt that significant? that is four times larger than the EP, Antioch and Alexandria combimned. The EP has close to 3,000 members. The Other two claim to about 300,000 each but this is probably inflated.
Of course my calculations are rudimentary. 606,000/250,000,000 =0.0024
I guess my point is when did size of a church become more important than the Gospel. It didnt. We must keep the faith unblemished which means no popes. I find it odd that diocesan bshops can be dethroned by a synod of which they are not a part of nor have a vote in. reminds me of the Synod of the Oak.
#7
George
on
2009-03-31 06:07
Mark, You continue to do an excellent job of reporting on this sordid affair. Hopefully the disinfectant of sunlight just might lead to the sort of reforms neccessary for a true "Orthodox" witness in the AOC.
Having said that I still believe that total capitulation by the former AOC Diocesan Bishops occurs the Friday of Bright Week. I would love to be wrong or even to see one of these guys truly take a stand and resist.
This is no small matter nor one that someone sworn to uphold the holy canons can or should ignore. If this is truly wrong and an affront to Holy Tradition I see no excuses or justification for the status quo and continued knee bending to a mere metropolitan instead of the Church's True Head.
We say we love the saints and their courage in giving a genuine witness to the Faith and their convictions in the face of sufferings, humiliations and even death. Let's see if any are in our midst today?
Having said that I still believe that total capitulation by the former AOC Diocesan Bishops occurs the Friday of Bright Week. I would love to be wrong or even to see one of these guys truly take a stand and resist.
This is no small matter nor one that someone sworn to uphold the holy canons can or should ignore. If this is truly wrong and an affront to Holy Tradition I see no excuses or justification for the status quo and continued knee bending to a mere metropolitan instead of the Church's True Head.
We say we love the saints and their courage in giving a genuine witness to the Faith and their convictions in the face of sufferings, humiliations and even death. Let's see if any are in our midst today?
#8
Kevin
on
2009-03-31 07:49
To the "Russian Observer": Somehow I get the feeling that for a practically dead church like Antioch a metropolitanate like the one in North America might be important. I'll buy your argument when it comes to the Russian/Romanian/Ethiopian Orthodox jurisdictions in the Americas, but not the Antiochian/Greco-Constantinopolitan Orthodox.
#9
Marqos Weldemaryam
on
2009-03-31 08:09
"The decision to depose the Bishops and degrade the dioceses in everything but name by a decision not of the Archdiocese, but a foreign Synod, reveals something which many Americans have suspected for a long time but which now is confirmed beyond any doubt - the total, truly and built-in indifference of the Old World to anything beyond the sphere of its own problematics, of its own experience."
Forgive me, but this seems like quite a leap here. As you have already reported on this site, there is evidence that Metropolitan Philip may have played an instigating role in the Patriarchal decision. But even if we assume that the decision came from the Patriarchate, and that Metropolitan Philip merely lent it his support, your argument still does not hold. The unusual situation created by the recent decision of the Synod of Antioch is the result of historically unprecedented actions. It is not fair to make the generalized claim that the whole "Old World" has "total . . . indifference . . . to anything beyond the sphere . . . of its own experience." In fact, Metropolitan Philip is markedly different than his "Old World" predecessors when it comes to certain issues -- issues of substance, such as the importance of monasticism in the Church. By the way, this is not necessarily a good thing. Your claim that the whole "Old World" is indifferent to American culture is inflammatory at best and mildly racist at worst. Yes, the crossroads between East and West are not always smooth, but let's not resort to name-calling here -- both sides have work to do. During the Patriarch's last visit to America, he was publicly humiliated by Metropolitan Philip, who intentionally orchestrated the event to prevent lay people from having any contact with the Patriarch (even people who flew hundreds of miles to take his blessing). The spiritual atmosphere was appalling, and Great Vespers was not even celebrated on Saturday night. Despite these humiliations, the Patriarch spoke kind words during the homily, both of the American Archdiocese and Metropolitan Philip. I'm afraid that characterizing him, and the whole "Old World," as indifferent simply won't do.
(editor's note: Racist? Give me a break. Name calling? Because I used the term "Old World"? Get serious. Your use of the term " racist" is more name calling than anything I have ever written!
And no, I don't think the old world is totally indifferent to America, just mostly so. I do agree with you that as long as we give money they will continue to visit us.
Forgive me, but this seems like quite a leap here. As you have already reported on this site, there is evidence that Metropolitan Philip may have played an instigating role in the Patriarchal decision. But even if we assume that the decision came from the Patriarchate, and that Metropolitan Philip merely lent it his support, your argument still does not hold. The unusual situation created by the recent decision of the Synod of Antioch is the result of historically unprecedented actions. It is not fair to make the generalized claim that the whole "Old World" has "total . . . indifference . . . to anything beyond the sphere . . . of its own experience." In fact, Metropolitan Philip is markedly different than his "Old World" predecessors when it comes to certain issues -- issues of substance, such as the importance of monasticism in the Church. By the way, this is not necessarily a good thing. Your claim that the whole "Old World" is indifferent to American culture is inflammatory at best and mildly racist at worst. Yes, the crossroads between East and West are not always smooth, but let's not resort to name-calling here -- both sides have work to do. During the Patriarch's last visit to America, he was publicly humiliated by Metropolitan Philip, who intentionally orchestrated the event to prevent lay people from having any contact with the Patriarch (even people who flew hundreds of miles to take his blessing). The spiritual atmosphere was appalling, and Great Vespers was not even celebrated on Saturday night. Despite these humiliations, the Patriarch spoke kind words during the homily, both of the American Archdiocese and Metropolitan Philip. I'm afraid that characterizing him, and the whole "Old World," as indifferent simply won't do.
(editor's note: Racist? Give me a break. Name calling? Because I used the term "Old World"? Get serious. Your use of the term " racist" is more name calling than anything I have ever written!
And no, I don't think the old world is totally indifferent to America, just mostly so. I do agree with you that as long as we give money they will continue to visit us.
#10
Basil
on
2009-03-31 08:27
Having a pocket full of money was enough to distract the patriarch from the liturical irregularities. He is 88 years old and kept getting lost during the Liturgy, i.e., no elevation of the gifts at "Thine own of Thine own . . ." and "Wisdom, Holy things are for the Holy". He forgot to go to the proskomedia table for commemorations before the Great Entrance and to give the Gifts to the Deacon and the Priest. And lastly he forgot the Dismissal at the end of the Liturgy. Perhaps he was anxious to get the money out of the country.
The old world wants to continue *"business as usual"*. That is all we are to them --- A franchise! Over there is someone was inacapable of holding another job they often became priests. Therefore, priests are not held in high esteem as they were not generally highly educated. In fact Patriarch Ignatius does not believe married need to be educated.
In Romania, if a priest wants a good church in the city he must pay about 25,000 euros, then charge fees to raise the money to pay for his assignment. In Jerusalem the priests pay for the candle stands so they can collect the income from it. That is why they are so territorial over these things. Let them clean theinside of theoir own cup before they dictate to us. Remove the BEAM from their own eyes before they remove the SPLINTER from ours.
We do not need to continue importing their corruption. Let us embrace the faith, but break with the corruption. We must hold the hierarchy to Christian standards. Fr Patrick Reardon wrote a wonderful reflection a few years ago. He stated the tragedy is that when Christians fall short, they fall short of even the pagan standards. This is why it is so scandalous! We look like fools when we tolerate corruption that even the pagan world will not tolerate amongst the hierarchs and clergy and the board of trustees.
The old world wants to continue *"business as usual"*. That is all we are to them --- A franchise! Over there is someone was inacapable of holding another job they often became priests. Therefore, priests are not held in high esteem as they were not generally highly educated. In fact Patriarch Ignatius does not believe married need to be educated.
In Romania, if a priest wants a good church in the city he must pay about 25,000 euros, then charge fees to raise the money to pay for his assignment. In Jerusalem the priests pay for the candle stands so they can collect the income from it. That is why they are so territorial over these things. Let them clean theinside of theoir own cup before they dictate to us. Remove the BEAM from their own eyes before they remove the SPLINTER from ours.
We do not need to continue importing their corruption. Let us embrace the faith, but break with the corruption. We must hold the hierarchy to Christian standards. Fr Patrick Reardon wrote a wonderful reflection a few years ago. He stated the tragedy is that when Christians fall short, they fall short of even the pagan standards. This is why it is so scandalous! We look like fools when we tolerate corruption that even the pagan world will not tolerate amongst the hierarchs and clergy and the board of trustees.
#10.1
anon
on
2009-04-02 08:08
This is great. I'm glad people are correcting my misconceptions. Some of it was truly taken the wrong way, however my point was I was tired of searching, shopping and found the faith that was for 2000 years, how could it have been preserved as best as it did. Yes there was trials and tribulations along the way, but it would have been extremely hard here in today's society. That was my point.
The church is not limited, and you are correct about the Patriarchate of Rome, as to infallibility, good point which i did not take into consideration at the moment of writing.
Forgive me a sinner, it was just a frustrating read.
William
The church is not limited, and you are correct about the Patriarchate of Rome, as to infallibility, good point which i did not take into consideration at the moment of writing.
Forgive me a sinner, it was just a frustrating read.
William
#11
William
on
2009-03-31 08:55
William,
God bless you for having the courage to come back on here and not try to defend yourself, but admit that you had overlooked certain aspects of your position. I understand where you are coming from better now and appreciate the clarification of your position.
I have gone through a similar struggle as you: trying to make sense of being an American and being Orthodox. I think that as you continue to struggle you will see how, in many ways, America and modern society provides better ways for you to be Orthodox. Sure, modern society has its difficulties as well--it is not perfect--but it is no less perfect than the old world.
We walk a fine line trying to preserve the authentic, holy Tradition from the past while trying to weed out those things that, on the exterior, look like part of the Tradition, but are, in fact, simply remnants of a society that didn't work.
God bless you for having the courage to come back on here and not try to defend yourself, but admit that you had overlooked certain aspects of your position. I understand where you are coming from better now and appreciate the clarification of your position.
I have gone through a similar struggle as you: trying to make sense of being an American and being Orthodox. I think that as you continue to struggle you will see how, in many ways, America and modern society provides better ways for you to be Orthodox. Sure, modern society has its difficulties as well--it is not perfect--but it is no less perfect than the old world.
We walk a fine line trying to preserve the authentic, holy Tradition from the past while trying to weed out those things that, on the exterior, look like part of the Tradition, but are, in fact, simply remnants of a society that didn't work.
#11.1
Anonymous Antiochian Priest
on
2009-03-31 10:55
William,
Forgive me a sinner!
I certainly understand your frustration. I too am a convert to Orthodoxy and am all too familiar with the consumer culture in Evangelical Protestant circles. I actually have nightmares about showing up to Divine Liturgy one Sunday morning only to find that the choir has been replaced by a "praise band." - Seriously, it's a disturbing dream.
The beautiful thing about Orthodoxy is that it has stood firm because God's grace is at work in ALL her members (not just hierarchs and monastics). The Holy Spirit is at work in each member of the Body to ensure that "even the gates of hell" do not prevail against it. When St. Nicholas punched Arius, it wasn't nice, but it was in defense of the Truth. (Not that I'm saying Stokoe is St. Nicholas & +Phillip Arius... You get my drift.) It would have been much easier to maintain the status quo for the past 2000 years, but it would have meant the death of Christianity.
The Church is holding it's leaders accountable to that which has been entrusted to them, and that is a good thing.
Forgive me a sinner!
I certainly understand your frustration. I too am a convert to Orthodoxy and am all too familiar with the consumer culture in Evangelical Protestant circles. I actually have nightmares about showing up to Divine Liturgy one Sunday morning only to find that the choir has been replaced by a "praise band." - Seriously, it's a disturbing dream.
The beautiful thing about Orthodoxy is that it has stood firm because God's grace is at work in ALL her members (not just hierarchs and monastics). The Holy Spirit is at work in each member of the Body to ensure that "even the gates of hell" do not prevail against it. When St. Nicholas punched Arius, it wasn't nice, but it was in defense of the Truth. (Not that I'm saying Stokoe is St. Nicholas & +Phillip Arius... You get my drift.) It would have been much easier to maintain the status quo for the past 2000 years, but it would have meant the death of Christianity.
The Church is holding it's leaders accountable to that which has been entrusted to them, and that is a good thing.
#11.2
David Feliciano
on
2009-03-31 19:27
In reply to almost everyone:
I am not sure why I choose to read the comments on this website. It must be the masochistic streak within me. Nevertheless, as I read, a certain thought constantly comes to mind.
I refer you to the first verse of the "Arabic" proverb that reads as follows: “He who knows not and knows not that he knows not is a fool. Shun him.”
I deeply resent your inclusion of this situation within our Antiochian Archdiocese on your website; as if it could in any way be compared to the problems and situations within the OCA which you have addressed during these past months. Heaven forbid!
The destructive comments directed toward Metropolitan Philip completely astound me. It is clear that these individuals do not even know him. Not really. What are these people hearing and from whom? Is there any person anywhere – no matter what their calling in life – who – looking back on a nearly 50 year history of service and thousands upon thousands of decisions - could not have a few regrets?
Metropolitan Philip has always shown love and compassion to his flock. His legacy to this Archdiocese will be rich and everlasting. Our emotional connection with the Metropolitan is very strong. …. and I do "not" refer only to those with Middle Eastern roots.
I have longed for the day that Orthodox unity could be achieved in this land that we all love and honor. But it is now becoming increasingly clear that this so-called American Orthodox Church could really be dangerous.
For the last 72 years, our Holy Synod of Antioch has provided us with two of the most outstanding Orthodox Hierarchs to grace these shores – Metropolitan Antony Bashir, of blessed memory, and Metropolitan Philip Saliba.
We truly need - and dearly love and respect – our six Bishops. That has not changed. Truthfully, it has always been assumed by many that the role of the Metropolitan was to oversee and guide his brothers-in-Christ and that he always has been "in charge". That is as it should be for, after all, we are ONE….and not six or seven separate units.
I strongly believe the wisdom of the decision of the Holy Synod of Antioch is clear; and that the unintended result of all of these harsh opinions expressed on this and other websites will be to make our relationship with the Mother Church even stronger.
(Editor's note: I have never suggested that the problems in the OCA and those in the Archdiocese were similiar, nor would I. Nor have I criticized the Synod or the Metropolitan for their decisions. I have asked questions though, which is the only way I know to learn, since, as as you point out, I am not a fool for I know that I do not know. Neither do others. That is one of the problems here.
In this regard, I have opened my website to those who would ask questions publicly, because, whether we like, agree, or desire it, we are all Orthodox Christians in America, and major decisions by one jurisdiction influence all the others. We are united by that, if little else. And if not here, where? And if not me, who?
If some choose to take advantage of my hospitality, and speak with greater or lesser emotion towards the Metropolitan, that is their choice, and the freedom one enjoys in this country. If one dislikes it, don't do it. If one doesn't want to read it, stop reading it. If one thinks it is a bad thing, speak out against it. If one thinks "someone" should stop it, consider emigrating. Most places in the world prevent such discourse and questioning, and one might be more comfortable in such a context than the robust dialogue that characterizes American social interplay. However, I might suggest that if one wants to preach the Gospel to Americans, one must learn to speak to them in their terms, as did St. Paul did to the Greeks on the Aeropagus, and more recently St. Innocent in Alaska. Moreover, I doubt the Metropolitan has such thin skin that the a few hotheads calling him out will much disturb him. He would not have lasted as a Bishop for forty years if he were not a man of greater faith and substance than that. So I invite you to continue reading, and questioning, and learning, so that what is truly wise is made ever more manifest.)
I am not sure why I choose to read the comments on this website. It must be the masochistic streak within me. Nevertheless, as I read, a certain thought constantly comes to mind.
I refer you to the first verse of the "Arabic" proverb that reads as follows: “He who knows not and knows not that he knows not is a fool. Shun him.”
I deeply resent your inclusion of this situation within our Antiochian Archdiocese on your website; as if it could in any way be compared to the problems and situations within the OCA which you have addressed during these past months. Heaven forbid!
The destructive comments directed toward Metropolitan Philip completely astound me. It is clear that these individuals do not even know him. Not really. What are these people hearing and from whom? Is there any person anywhere – no matter what their calling in life – who – looking back on a nearly 50 year history of service and thousands upon thousands of decisions - could not have a few regrets?
Metropolitan Philip has always shown love and compassion to his flock. His legacy to this Archdiocese will be rich and everlasting. Our emotional connection with the Metropolitan is very strong. …. and I do "not" refer only to those with Middle Eastern roots.
I have longed for the day that Orthodox unity could be achieved in this land that we all love and honor. But it is now becoming increasingly clear that this so-called American Orthodox Church could really be dangerous.
For the last 72 years, our Holy Synod of Antioch has provided us with two of the most outstanding Orthodox Hierarchs to grace these shores – Metropolitan Antony Bashir, of blessed memory, and Metropolitan Philip Saliba.
We truly need - and dearly love and respect – our six Bishops. That has not changed. Truthfully, it has always been assumed by many that the role of the Metropolitan was to oversee and guide his brothers-in-Christ and that he always has been "in charge". That is as it should be for, after all, we are ONE….and not six or seven separate units.
I strongly believe the wisdom of the decision of the Holy Synod of Antioch is clear; and that the unintended result of all of these harsh opinions expressed on this and other websites will be to make our relationship with the Mother Church even stronger.
(Editor's note: I have never suggested that the problems in the OCA and those in the Archdiocese were similiar, nor would I. Nor have I criticized the Synod or the Metropolitan for their decisions. I have asked questions though, which is the only way I know to learn, since, as as you point out, I am not a fool for I know that I do not know. Neither do others. That is one of the problems here.
In this regard, I have opened my website to those who would ask questions publicly, because, whether we like, agree, or desire it, we are all Orthodox Christians in America, and major decisions by one jurisdiction influence all the others. We are united by that, if little else. And if not here, where? And if not me, who?
If some choose to take advantage of my hospitality, and speak with greater or lesser emotion towards the Metropolitan, that is their choice, and the freedom one enjoys in this country. If one dislikes it, don't do it. If one doesn't want to read it, stop reading it. If one thinks it is a bad thing, speak out against it. If one thinks "someone" should stop it, consider emigrating. Most places in the world prevent such discourse and questioning, and one might be more comfortable in such a context than the robust dialogue that characterizes American social interplay. However, I might suggest that if one wants to preach the Gospel to Americans, one must learn to speak to them in their terms, as did St. Paul did to the Greeks on the Aeropagus, and more recently St. Innocent in Alaska. Moreover, I doubt the Metropolitan has such thin skin that the a few hotheads calling him out will much disturb him. He would not have lasted as a Bishop for forty years if he were not a man of greater faith and substance than that. So I invite you to continue reading, and questioning, and learning, so that what is truly wise is made ever more manifest.)
#12
Laila K. Davis
on
2009-04-01 06:27
Mark has of course defended himself sufficiently, but I wish to address you idea that having multiple dioceses results in lack of unity:
Only if unity = unifromity and diversity = schism.
IS unity if our church infringed by the existence of different parishes? Just what do you mean by the word "unity?"
Unity is not based on a man. Its not based on cetralized power. Unity in Christian terms, is based on Love. IN Christ their is no "Jew or Greek." Yet, simultaneously the Church is composed of Jews and Greeks. We are one in Christ. In the teachings of St Ignatius of Antioch, we are one in the chalice, and one in the office of the bishop. A Metroplitan is NOT "bishop of bishops." A Metroplitan is a SENIOR bishop. First among equals. This ruling from Antioch overthrows this tradition of Ignatian ecclesiology and replaces it with a Roman Catholic administrative model.
We can't let this happen without at least pointing it out!
Only if unity = unifromity and diversity = schism.
IS unity if our church infringed by the existence of different parishes? Just what do you mean by the word "unity?"
Unity is not based on a man. Its not based on cetralized power. Unity in Christian terms, is based on Love. IN Christ their is no "Jew or Greek." Yet, simultaneously the Church is composed of Jews and Greeks. We are one in Christ. In the teachings of St Ignatius of Antioch, we are one in the chalice, and one in the office of the bishop. A Metroplitan is NOT "bishop of bishops." A Metroplitan is a SENIOR bishop. First among equals. This ruling from Antioch overthrows this tradition of Ignatian ecclesiology and replaces it with a Roman Catholic administrative model.
We can't let this happen without at least pointing it out!
#12.1
Antionymous
on
2009-04-01 07:51
Dear Laila: The many years of accomplishments of Met. Philip have nothing to do with the present problem.
Imagine this situation: you turn 16, and your parents give you the keys to a brand new car. After 6 years with a flawless driving record, and despite the fact that you are now 22 and have graduated from college, your parents repossess your car. you ask why and your parents reply "our decision was not a result of any wrongdoing by you, it was necessary to normalize your status" (with your friends who didn't get a car when they turned 16).
So Laila, in view of the fact that we are "rational sheep", doesn't this whole thing make you just a little suspicious?
Imagine this situation: you turn 16, and your parents give you the keys to a brand new car. After 6 years with a flawless driving record, and despite the fact that you are now 22 and have graduated from college, your parents repossess your car. you ask why and your parents reply "our decision was not a result of any wrongdoing by you, it was necessary to normalize your status" (with your friends who didn't get a car when they turned 16).
So Laila, in view of the fact that we are "rational sheep", doesn't this whole thing make you just a little suspicious?
#12.2
Michael Strelka
on
2009-04-01 08:25
Dearest Laila,
While we may be grateful for the good Metropolitan Philip has done, we must remember the prize to the one who finishes the race (and competes accroding to the rules). The Scripture is quite clear if someonelives a virtuous life and then turns away from it, he will be judged according to how he finished his life. The Lord will not remember the good. Likewise, if someone leads a sinful life and comes to his sense, none of his past offenses will be remembered by the Lord.
At this point MP legacy is going down the shishmee! Even his motives are called into question for things seemingly progressive and bold -- reception of the EOC. Why? ---They TITHE!
The problems we are encuntering have to do with accepting his mortality. Rather than tighten his grip, he needs to let go. His time is coming to an end! Secondly, when he chose to promote self-rule he endorsed and accepted the proper ecclessiology of the church. ALL BISHOPS ARE EQUAL. The Primate only presides over BROTHER BISHOPS. Sadly, he has serious control issues that run contrary to ORTHODOXY.
We must also remember that all Bishops are accountable to God, to be faithful to the Holy Scriptures, the TRADITION of the Church and the HOLY CANONS which prescribe PROPER and NORMAL ORDER WITHIN THE CHURCH. METROPOLITAN PHILIP'S ANSWER TO THE WICHITA CLERGY BETRAYS HIM. WE DID NOT RETURN TO NORMALCY. HE EXERTED HIS CONTROL IN A MANNER THAT WOULD MAKE ANY POPE BLUSH. THIS DECISION AND HIS ENDORSEMENT AND THAT OF HIS CO-CONSPIRITORS ONLY SERVED AS A DEPARTURE FROM TRUE ORTHODOX ECCLESIOLOGY!
We are in America, if someone wants to promote a particular culture, start a club. Let the Church preach, teach, make disciples and baptize. If there are those who do not want Orthodoxy or America, catch a flight back across the water and let us get busy doing the work OF THE CHURCH.
While we may be grateful for the good Metropolitan Philip has done, we must remember the prize to the one who finishes the race (and competes accroding to the rules). The Scripture is quite clear if someonelives a virtuous life and then turns away from it, he will be judged according to how he finished his life. The Lord will not remember the good. Likewise, if someone leads a sinful life and comes to his sense, none of his past offenses will be remembered by the Lord.
At this point MP legacy is going down the shishmee! Even his motives are called into question for things seemingly progressive and bold -- reception of the EOC. Why? ---They TITHE!
The problems we are encuntering have to do with accepting his mortality. Rather than tighten his grip, he needs to let go. His time is coming to an end! Secondly, when he chose to promote self-rule he endorsed and accepted the proper ecclessiology of the church. ALL BISHOPS ARE EQUAL. The Primate only presides over BROTHER BISHOPS. Sadly, he has serious control issues that run contrary to ORTHODOXY.
We must also remember that all Bishops are accountable to God, to be faithful to the Holy Scriptures, the TRADITION of the Church and the HOLY CANONS which prescribe PROPER and NORMAL ORDER WITHIN THE CHURCH. METROPOLITAN PHILIP'S ANSWER TO THE WICHITA CLERGY BETRAYS HIM. WE DID NOT RETURN TO NORMALCY. HE EXERTED HIS CONTROL IN A MANNER THAT WOULD MAKE ANY POPE BLUSH. THIS DECISION AND HIS ENDORSEMENT AND THAT OF HIS CO-CONSPIRITORS ONLY SERVED AS A DEPARTURE FROM TRUE ORTHODOX ECCLESIOLOGY!
We are in America, if someone wants to promote a particular culture, start a club. Let the Church preach, teach, make disciples and baptize. If there are those who do not want Orthodoxy or America, catch a flight back across the water and let us get busy doing the work OF THE CHURCH.
#12.3
Running the good race
on
2009-04-02 09:09
Please do not compare Met. Phillip with Met. Antony (Bsher). No comparison as Met. Antony lived like a monk as regards lifestyle and possessions! Despite Antioch always "spearing him", (regarding Toledo and illegal Consceration of Archp. David) they stressed him to death in 1966. His ONLY love was His Lord and Church. All according to by older Uncle who worked with him as a trustee for many years. "Ye shall know them by their fruit...".
#12.4
Anonymous
on
2009-04-02 11:02
"I knew Metropolitan Antony. Metropolitan Antony was a friend of mine."
Metropolitan Antony was always extremely proud of his spiritual son, Philip.
The two leaders have always displayed the necessary traits of boldness and decisiveness needed to both establish and perpetuate "the old Church in the New World".
Metropolitan Antony was always extremely proud of his spiritual son, Philip.
The two leaders have always displayed the necessary traits of boldness and decisiveness needed to both establish and perpetuate "the old Church in the New World".
#12.4.1
Laila K. Davis
on
2009-04-03 06:33
Laila you don't know the facts. Metr. Antony would never have approved of the CEO vindictive (rE; Joe Allen episode) person in Metr. Philip. A born "charmer" who did'nt even care to have a reg. pension plan for his retired clergy. Their housing allowance he "bestows" (non vested at his whim distributed and denied) is less than 1/3rd that rec's by the OCA and Greek Churches in the USA. Knowledgeable that the disciplined monastic prepared like Metr. Jonah and Bishop Basil are the ideal.
#12.5
Anonymous
on
2009-04-03 21:34
Can someone explain to me how the Antiochian church is structured?
Is it a Patriarch, then a number of Metropolitans, then a number of only auxiliary Bishops?
Is Metropolitan Philip suggesting all Bishops under a Metropolitan ought to be auxiliaries and this is normal?
If such was the case, the OCA is autocephalous, but we have no Patriarch, and if we followed the same rules, would all our Bishops then be auxiliaries as well?
At some point what Metropolitan Philip deems normal, doesn't seem normal at all.
Why hasn't someone called him on the carpet for this 'normalization' concept.
What is normal among Orthodox hierarchs?
Surely, there must be one scholar here that can answer this question.
And if Orthodoxy is really to remain intact as William suggests, it would seem rules on hierarchical structures ought to be somewhat consistent.
I'm a little disappointed in this thread because everyone kind of jumped on William, but I think the greater point of analyzing the content of Metropolitan Philips response has been missed.
Is it a Patriarch, then a number of Metropolitans, then a number of only auxiliary Bishops?
Is Metropolitan Philip suggesting all Bishops under a Metropolitan ought to be auxiliaries and this is normal?
If such was the case, the OCA is autocephalous, but we have no Patriarch, and if we followed the same rules, would all our Bishops then be auxiliaries as well?
At some point what Metropolitan Philip deems normal, doesn't seem normal at all.
Why hasn't someone called him on the carpet for this 'normalization' concept.
What is normal among Orthodox hierarchs?
Surely, there must be one scholar here that can answer this question.
And if Orthodoxy is really to remain intact as William suggests, it would seem rules on hierarchical structures ought to be somewhat consistent.
I'm a little disappointed in this thread because everyone kind of jumped on William, but I think the greater point of analyzing the content of Metropolitan Philips response has been missed.
#13
Daniel E. Fall
on
2009-04-01 07:46
What would Jesus do?
I believe He would want what is best for the common worshipper and less concerned about the egos of the priests and hierarchs.
Maybe it's time to take a moment or two or ten to meditate and pray on what is best for all. The average person is under heightened stress because of the economy and fighting a battle in the church over structure, power and responsibilities seems to me to be a bit selfish.
The archdiocese to my knowledge has thrived for decades and I feel no reluctance to revert to what has worked. I'm sure a compromise can be worked out and I would ask all to show great patience as we pray on this matter and for the well being of our family, friends, and fellow human beings in this time of great uncertainty.
God Bless us all!
I believe He would want what is best for the common worshipper and less concerned about the egos of the priests and hierarchs.
Maybe it's time to take a moment or two or ten to meditate and pray on what is best for all. The average person is under heightened stress because of the economy and fighting a battle in the church over structure, power and responsibilities seems to me to be a bit selfish.
The archdiocese to my knowledge has thrived for decades and I feel no reluctance to revert to what has worked. I'm sure a compromise can be worked out and I would ask all to show great patience as we pray on this matter and for the well being of our family, friends, and fellow human beings in this time of great uncertainty.
God Bless us all!
#13.1
Anonymous non-clergy church member
on
2009-04-01 13:37
It is pretty frightening if we actually pay attention to the details of hierarchical order, because we suddenly and quickly realize the whole thing could be a sham. Rather than turning your fears into a direction for me, it'd be good if you start to recognize the reasons for your apparent lack of concern for what the hierarchs and chief priests are up to...
According to Wikipedia...
The [Eastern Orthodox] Church is composed of numerous self-governing ecclessial bodies, each geographically and nationally distinct but theologically and sacramentally unified. Each self-governing (or autocephalous) body is shepherded by a Synod of independent bishops whose duty is, among other things, to preserve and teach the Apostolic and patristic traditions and related Church practices.
Actually, Wikipedia is clearly wrong. The churches self governing bodies are not geographically and nationally distinct (some are also not self governing it seems). The churches are also not theologically unified and I'll get a lot of pushback, but unless they all meet and agree on a regular basis; they can't be unified.
To be a complete nit, I admit I can be one, if a Synod is comprised of Bishops, then what Synod did Bishop Mark, for example, belong to? If he didn't belong to a Synod, then why hasn't Metropolitan Philip been demoted to a mere Diocesan Bishop?
According to Wikipedia...
The [Eastern Orthodox] Church is composed of numerous self-governing ecclessial bodies, each geographically and nationally distinct but theologically and sacramentally unified. Each self-governing (or autocephalous) body is shepherded by a Synod of independent bishops whose duty is, among other things, to preserve and teach the Apostolic and patristic traditions and related Church practices.
Actually, Wikipedia is clearly wrong. The churches self governing bodies are not geographically and nationally distinct (some are also not self governing it seems). The churches are also not theologically unified and I'll get a lot of pushback, but unless they all meet and agree on a regular basis; they can't be unified.
To be a complete nit, I admit I can be one, if a Synod is comprised of Bishops, then what Synod did Bishop Mark, for example, belong to? If he didn't belong to a Synod, then why hasn't Metropolitan Philip been demoted to a mere Diocesan Bishop?
#13.1.1
Daniel E. Fall
on
2009-04-02 18:52
His Eminence, Met. PHILIP is a member of the Holy Synod of Antioch.
#13.1.1.1
Antionymous
on
2009-04-03 10:56
Dear Daniel,
I think we all know of somebody whom we respect because of an outstanding life but who has changed so much that we do not know what to say or how to say it. I have always respected and admired Metropolitan Phillip. However, this normalization business has thrown me for a loop. At first glance, Metropolitan Phillip's reply to the 15 questions is so full of holes, so arbitrary that he seems to be an entirely different person. Therefore, I think that some people have been reluctant to parse his actions because of shock, sadness, embarrassment or feelings of betrayal (with some laudible exceptions--Mark as usual carrying the water for us). I am willing to wait and see what happens during Bright Week. Right now, I only have a tentative appreciation that is not complimentary of Metropolitan Phillip or of the Patriarchate. There is also the growing conviction that the overseas patriarchates are more of a hindrance than help and that the OCA may be the only realistic hope for Orthodoxy in the New World.
I think we all know of somebody whom we respect because of an outstanding life but who has changed so much that we do not know what to say or how to say it. I have always respected and admired Metropolitan Phillip. However, this normalization business has thrown me for a loop. At first glance, Metropolitan Phillip's reply to the 15 questions is so full of holes, so arbitrary that he seems to be an entirely different person. Therefore, I think that some people have been reluctant to parse his actions because of shock, sadness, embarrassment or feelings of betrayal (with some laudible exceptions--Mark as usual carrying the water for us). I am willing to wait and see what happens during Bright Week. Right now, I only have a tentative appreciation that is not complimentary of Metropolitan Phillip or of the Patriarchate. There is also the growing conviction that the overseas patriarchates are more of a hindrance than help and that the OCA may be the only realistic hope for Orthodoxy in the New World.
#13.2
Carl
on
2009-04-01 16:21
I am curious about this notion of 'normalizing the status of bishops'. How will the reading list for the St. Stephen's Course will be revised to reflect it? When I completed that course, we learned about the fundamental equality of bishops, as contrasted with the Latin papacy, and about all of the instances when the laity and ordinary clergy corrected the hierarchs, and how synodical decisions can be rejected by the Church at large.
It's most remarkable: It's so 'normal' that the Archdiocese or Patriarchate will have to commission new texts to teach this 'normal' ecclesiology.
It's most remarkable: It's so 'normal' that the Archdiocese or Patriarchate will have to commission new texts to teach this 'normal' ecclesiology.
#13.3
Subdeacon David Yetter
on
2009-04-02 05:00
It seems like that the situation is what occurs under Constantinople. All diocesan hierarchs are Metropolitans or Archbishops (who outrank Metropolitans in Greek practice). Any hierarch who is 'just' a bishop is an auxiliary.
If this is what Antioch is going toward, they could have made Met. Phillip an Archbishop and the diocesan hierarchs Metropolitans.
Just my $.02.
If this is what Antioch is going toward, they could have made Met. Phillip an Archbishop and the diocesan hierarchs Metropolitans.
Just my $.02.
#13.4
Justin
on
2009-04-02 12:38
Daniel asks if someone could explain "How The Antiochian Church is structured"? ....Without making your head explode that just may not be possible.
It is a question that each of the former Diocesan Bishops have on their mind. It is one they undoubtedly will ask again on Bright Friday.
They will probably be asking the same question when they return from the Woodshed..uh I mean Englewood the following day.
It is a question that each of the former Diocesan Bishops have on their mind. It is one they undoubtedly will ask again on Bright Friday.
They will probably be asking the same question when they return from the Woodshed..uh I mean Englewood the following day.
#14
Kevin
on
2009-04-01 14:08
The way it is structured is the way it was structured 4 years ago. Auxilary Bishops. Has 4 years made us all forget.
#14.1
William
on
2009-04-02 09:11
Yes, and 10 years ago my 12 year old was in diapers. I have not forgotten, but I don't think he'll let me try to get a diaper on him again....
#14.1.1
Antionymous
on
2009-04-02 09:59
No, four years have not made us forget, but evidently Met. PHILIP wants us to forget what normal Orthodox ecclesiology actually is after we've lived under it for four years (and that despite going to a lot of effort to set up the St. Stephens Course so that lots of us learned it very thoroughly, and can critique these recent actions on the same basis we learned to criticize the Latin papacy: the fundamental equality of all bishops).
The Constitutions of the Archdiocese which this decree from Antioch purports to annul represented what has been the norm in the Holy Orthodox Church down the centuries--bishops ruling dioceses, ideally dioceses small enough that the bishop knows not just his priests, but his whole flock.
The fact that auxiliary bishops are, in fact, the anomaly, is the reason that all auxiliary bishops are titular bishops of ancient sees in which there are no longer any Orthodox Christians: bishops are bishops of dioceses. That is normal. Hence the question, unanswered by Met. PHILIP's reply, posed by the presbyters of the Diocese of Wichita and Mid-America, regarding the status of bishops specifically consecrated for the new dioceses of the 'Self-Ruled' Antiochian Archdiocese.
The Constitutions of the Archdiocese which this decree from Antioch purports to annul represented what has been the norm in the Holy Orthodox Church down the centuries--bishops ruling dioceses, ideally dioceses small enough that the bishop knows not just his priests, but his whole flock.
The fact that auxiliary bishops are, in fact, the anomaly, is the reason that all auxiliary bishops are titular bishops of ancient sees in which there are no longer any Orthodox Christians: bishops are bishops of dioceses. That is normal. Hence the question, unanswered by Met. PHILIP's reply, posed by the presbyters of the Diocese of Wichita and Mid-America, regarding the status of bishops specifically consecrated for the new dioceses of the 'Self-Ruled' Antiochian Archdiocese.
#14.1.2
Subdeacon David Yetter
on
2009-04-04 21:03
Woodshed? Why the question mark? You hit the nail on the HEAD. The Antiochians will NOT HAVE A BRIGHT FRIDAY FOR MANY YEARS TO COME, UNLESS THIS IS ADDRESSED AND QUICKLY. This will be a day of morning unless MP comes to his senses or the laity speak up. Once again, he dos not read letters, his staff does. He does look at finances. Send the red ribbons and crosses back with a letter. Once the finances drop he MAY EVENTUALLY ASK WHY.
How many heads will roll and we will stand by and watch? Certainly not the rights ones will be rolling unless the people speak up.
How many heads will roll and we will stand by and watch? Certainly not the rights ones will be rolling unless the people speak up.
#14.2
anonymous clergyman
on
2009-04-02 09:23
Mark Stokoe
Look like you love to create problems. You are doing nothing of justice except having the devil live inside of you.
Do you believe that you are going to heaven?
Instead of repenting and asking for God forgiveness.
You must be an atheist to keep this website open
If you do not stop this oca crab....I will pray that God will destroy you..........
(editor's note: It would be easy just to toss this email into the "Glorious Hate Mail" file, and ignore it. But sometimes hate can't be ignored. It has to be fought, because otherwise we are all made smaller by it. I know of no other way than reason, for though it may not convince, the world is made better for using it. It's why God created it.
So, in fact, I did not create any of the problems I report on. Unless of course, you think reporting on problems is the problem, rather than the problem themselves. If that is the case, you are the problem.
The devil does live inside me; my guess is he lives in all of us. Fortunately, the Kingdom of God is inside of us as well, and my money is on the King. I do believe in repentance and asking God for forgiveness, although I am better at the latter than the former.
I am not going to heaven. I catch glimpses of it already, as can we all, for it is here, if we but like the Saints, have the spiritual eyes to see it.
I know that good news does not cause people to believe in God, so I am relunctant to admit that people become atheists because of bad news. I do know, however, that bad people can cause others to lose faith in God, and that good people can cause others to find theirs again. So let's be good people.
So, if you think I am a bad person because I must print bad news, can I be a good person that prints bad news? Or can good people only print good news? If such is the case, we had all best be quiet - in which case the bad will win, for as we know, all that is required for evil to triumph is for good men and women to remain silent. I think, therefore, I will print.
I am not familiar with the OCA crab. Please send a photo. Did you mean OCA carp? Why a fish? Or OCA carb, which I guess would mean halupki's?
And finally, yes, your prayers will be answered one day, on that you can rest assured. I will be destroyed, as will all that is created. I have a faith, however, that what is destroyed shall not be lost, but transformed. Even hate. )
Look like you love to create problems. You are doing nothing of justice except having the devil live inside of you.
Do you believe that you are going to heaven?
Instead of repenting and asking for God forgiveness.
You must be an atheist to keep this website open
If you do not stop this oca crab....I will pray that God will destroy you..........
(editor's note: It would be easy just to toss this email into the "Glorious Hate Mail" file, and ignore it. But sometimes hate can't be ignored. It has to be fought, because otherwise we are all made smaller by it. I know of no other way than reason, for though it may not convince, the world is made better for using it. It's why God created it.
So, in fact, I did not create any of the problems I report on. Unless of course, you think reporting on problems is the problem, rather than the problem themselves. If that is the case, you are the problem.
The devil does live inside me; my guess is he lives in all of us. Fortunately, the Kingdom of God is inside of us as well, and my money is on the King. I do believe in repentance and asking God for forgiveness, although I am better at the latter than the former.
I am not going to heaven. I catch glimpses of it already, as can we all, for it is here, if we but like the Saints, have the spiritual eyes to see it.
I know that good news does not cause people to believe in God, so I am relunctant to admit that people become atheists because of bad news. I do know, however, that bad people can cause others to lose faith in God, and that good people can cause others to find theirs again. So let's be good people.
So, if you think I am a bad person because I must print bad news, can I be a good person that prints bad news? Or can good people only print good news? If such is the case, we had all best be quiet - in which case the bad will win, for as we know, all that is required for evil to triumph is for good men and women to remain silent. I think, therefore, I will print.
I am not familiar with the OCA crab. Please send a photo. Did you mean OCA carp? Why a fish? Or OCA carb, which I guess would mean halupki's?
And finally, yes, your prayers will be answered one day, on that you can rest assured. I will be destroyed, as will all that is created. I have a faith, however, that what is destroyed shall not be lost, but transformed. Even hate. )
#15
Anonymous
on
2009-04-01 18:32
The people who think this is all about Mark Stokoe doing a "hateful thing" are amazing. HOw much of these stories are his content? He's barely had any of his own commentary. The bulk of what is here, is public record (ala antiochian.org) and what others have sent to him. There is a crisis in Antiochian Orthodoxy, and Mark is merely documenting it.
Is this not what Great Lent is all about? Letting the light of truth, the light of Christ, illumine all? All the dark places of our souls, and all the dark places in our church. The light is often painful, but it is healing. We must not fear it, but trust the heavenly physician of our souls and bodies, and yes, the physician of our wounded church, do His work, to make us whole.
I know not what direction this will take our God-protected Archdiocese (as Met. PHILIP so often calls our church), but I do know that GOd is indeed protecting us. We must play our synerginistic role however and cooperate w/ this process.
Thanks again Mark, for letting God use you to heal our church.
Is this not what Great Lent is all about? Letting the light of truth, the light of Christ, illumine all? All the dark places of our souls, and all the dark places in our church. The light is often painful, but it is healing. We must not fear it, but trust the heavenly physician of our souls and bodies, and yes, the physician of our wounded church, do His work, to make us whole.
I know not what direction this will take our God-protected Archdiocese (as Met. PHILIP so often calls our church), but I do know that GOd is indeed protecting us. We must play our synerginistic role however and cooperate w/ this process.
Thanks again Mark, for letting God use you to heal our church.
#15.1
Antionymous
on
2009-04-02 03:43
Mark, If I run across the OCA Crab I will do my best to stop it myself. I'd hate to see you lost to some sort of divine retribution.
If possible could a description or artist's sketch be posted of the Crustacean in question?
If possible could a description or artist's sketch be posted of the Crustacean in question?
#15.2
Kevin
on
2009-04-02 07:50
I am so down with the OCA crab! It's on the fast! Where's the cocktail sauce?
#15.3
Scott Walker
on
2009-04-02 10:57
Mark,
....I will pray that God will destroy you..........
What an odd thing for an alleged Christian to say to someone!
Let me tell you a story about the wierd league that this person has joined. Years ago I published a story in a national publication concerning an international cult was that was attempting to inflitrate various Right to Life groups in order to make converts to their perverted faith. They became so angry with me that they directed their members to invoke demons against me. While I lost 2 dogs and a cat to sudden deaths at the time, I'm still here. My belief is that you will be under the grace of the Living One regardless of what happens. However, the bold anonymous writer of curses will be invoking the wrong god, a caricature of the Divine Being. Makes me think that this website in doing the right thing and the ugly one is distressed.
Fr Thaddeus Wojcik
(Editor's note: Thanks, Fr. Ted. I will let other judge this website, but I encourage everyone to take a look at the news from Syosset today, and rejoice, for the Spirit is certainly making his mark there....)
....I will pray that God will destroy you..........
What an odd thing for an alleged Christian to say to someone!
Let me tell you a story about the wierd league that this person has joined. Years ago I published a story in a national publication concerning an international cult was that was attempting to inflitrate various Right to Life groups in order to make converts to their perverted faith. They became so angry with me that they directed their members to invoke demons against me. While I lost 2 dogs and a cat to sudden deaths at the time, I'm still here. My belief is that you will be under the grace of the Living One regardless of what happens. However, the bold anonymous writer of curses will be invoking the wrong god, a caricature of the Divine Being. Makes me think that this website in doing the right thing and the ugly one is distressed.
Fr Thaddeus Wojcik
(Editor's note: Thanks, Fr. Ted. I will let other judge this website, but I encourage everyone to take a look at the news from Syosset today, and rejoice, for the Spirit is certainly making his mark there....)
#15.4
Anonymous
on
2009-04-02 11:09
I thought there couldn't be two bishops of the same place....Now if Basil is Bishop of Witchita and Philip is also.....Well, that's taking autonomy to a new and interesting place. It used to be that Orthodox had to depend on other jurisdictions to have overlapping episcopal authority. The Antiochians have streamlined the process. Since it's normal to have multiple bishops of the same place, they'll do it themselves if there isn't another jurisdiction to rely on. If the OCA had only had a bishop to set up in Kansas this could all have been avoided! Philip is just stepping in to assure that Arab Orthodox are seen to be as sensible as all the Orthodox. Bravo. Axios.
#16
Ba'ab
on
2009-04-01 19:29
I feel like a broken record sometimes but please, if you can't say what you want constructively and in a Christian manner please think twice, or more, about hitting "submit comment".
We're going to move through this by seeking out the light but we'll stay stuck right here if all we generate is heat. It is good to have strong feelings about our Faith, it shows that it matters to us. And the fact that its worth debate shows the same. But little verbal potshots are like rocks in our shoes, they just make the steps we have to take harder.
Thank you.
Fr John Chagnon
St. Elias Orthodox Church
LaCrosse, WI
We're going to move through this by seeking out the light but we'll stay stuck right here if all we generate is heat. It is good to have strong feelings about our Faith, it shows that it matters to us. And the fact that its worth debate shows the same. But little verbal potshots are like rocks in our shoes, they just make the steps we have to take harder.
Thank you.
Fr John Chagnon
St. Elias Orthodox Church
LaCrosse, WI
Dear Mark Stokoe
Greetins to you in His Holy Name,
I would like to know why so many out there wrote to you in response and in great support of Metropolitan Philip and the Patriachate and yet you hve not added them on the website.
I do not get it at all. you put dirts and craps on the website. but the good deeds you refuse to acknowledge.
I happened to know of some who did call me and told me that they wrote in that regards.
Why can you not be fare and put all of them as written and not change the words to please you.
In Orthodoxy
(Editor's note: I rarely change what is written here, bad spelling and all. I do edit out personal attacks that simply rude, and things I know personally to be untrue. I also don't post people whose writings demonstrate to me that they have additional problems beyond the topics they are addressing. I hope you can read between the lines on that one.
Sometimes things are lost in cyber space, because people swear they sent them to me, but they never showed up here. Usually I tell them to re-submit. Even less often I, being human, hit delete instead of submit. Since so many do not include their email addresses with their comments, I have no way of letting them know I just zapped them. And finally, some people submit things to me personally, rather than posting it to the site. I figure if you send it to me personally, it is not for the site. Sometimes I ask them if that is what they meant to do, but most times they never reply. If you feel any of the above applies to you, please resubmit. )
Greetins to you in His Holy Name,
I would like to know why so many out there wrote to you in response and in great support of Metropolitan Philip and the Patriachate and yet you hve not added them on the website.
I do not get it at all. you put dirts and craps on the website. but the good deeds you refuse to acknowledge.
I happened to know of some who did call me and told me that they wrote in that regards.
Why can you not be fare and put all of them as written and not change the words to please you.
In Orthodoxy
(Editor's note: I rarely change what is written here, bad spelling and all. I do edit out personal attacks that simply rude, and things I know personally to be untrue. I also don't post people whose writings demonstrate to me that they have additional problems beyond the topics they are addressing. I hope you can read between the lines on that one.
Sometimes things are lost in cyber space, because people swear they sent them to me, but they never showed up here. Usually I tell them to re-submit. Even less often I, being human, hit delete instead of submit. Since so many do not include their email addresses with their comments, I have no way of letting them know I just zapped them. And finally, some people submit things to me personally, rather than posting it to the site. I figure if you send it to me personally, it is not for the site. Sometimes I ask them if that is what they meant to do, but most times they never reply. If you feel any of the above applies to you, please resubmit. )
#18
Anonymous
on
2009-04-02 08:41
The author does not allow comments to this entry
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