Wednesday, July 15. 2009
Governing Well Part Three
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This series of writings, I believe, are invaluable in helping to reform the archdiocese. They are well researched, and a potentially good guide for laity and priests alike. The writer (thank you very much) has done a lot of work in researching legal aspects pertaining to the archdiocese and pointing out many discrepancies in the way things have been done in the past. If there is ever any hope in cleaning up the mess in Englewood, this is the kind of work that needs to be done to help people unearth the ways that we have all been deceived. I would think the Patriarch and his associates would be very interested in learning about the way in which people in this country were led astray by sleight of hand as it is similar to the way in which the Patriarch was also treated in the creation of the "self-ruled" American archdiocese, and I am surprised that the Metropolitan's lawyers would let these deceptions pass. The trustee issue is unbelievable.
Metropolitan Philip has been in charge of his own little kingdom far too long, and has assumed that he is above the law. It is time for our archdiocese to be cleansed of this kind of deceptive and illegal behavior. Thank you again for your hard work.
Metropolitan Philip has been in charge of his own little kingdom far too long, and has assumed that he is above the law. It is time for our archdiocese to be cleansed of this kind of deceptive and illegal behavior. Thank you again for your hard work.
#1
anon
on
2009-07-15 12:08
So anybody who thinks their parish's proxies will be counted next week may be in for a rude awakening. Send the laity in!
#2
Makarios
on
2009-07-15 12:08
As Shakespeare said in King Henry the VI, Act IV scene 4:
"The first thing we do is kill all the lawyers."
(Editor's note: But as Plato said: "No law or ordinance is mightier than understanding.” Lawyers are not the problem: ignorance, indifference, complacency, collaboration, and lack of understanding are.)
"The first thing we do is kill all the lawyers."
(Editor's note: But as Plato said: "No law or ordinance is mightier than understanding.” Lawyers are not the problem: ignorance, indifference, complacency, collaboration, and lack of understanding are.)
#3
Brutus
on
2009-07-15 15:38
(Editor's note: But as Plato said: "No law or ordinance is mightier than understanding.” Lawyers are not the problem: ignorance, indifference, complacency, collaboration, and lack of understanding are.)
Then why are their champions always made heirarchs?
Then why are their champions always made heirarchs?
#4
Kevin Kirwan
on
2009-07-15 18:42
Kevin,
Am I correct in thinking that a rephrasing of your comment above might be "Hierarchs are champions of ignorance, indifference, complacency, collaboration, and lack of understanding." ?
Are you sure you want to make such a damning, blanket statement regarding all hierarchs, or do you have a specific hierarch or group of hierarchs in mind? A note of caution from someone afflicted with "foot in mouth" disease, under little control and rarely prompted by truly righteous anger.
Am I correct in thinking that a rephrasing of your comment above might be "Hierarchs are champions of ignorance, indifference, complacency, collaboration, and lack of understanding." ?
Are you sure you want to make such a damning, blanket statement regarding all hierarchs, or do you have a specific hierarch or group of hierarchs in mind? A note of caution from someone afflicted with "foot in mouth" disease, under little control and rarely prompted by truly righteous anger.
#4.1
Mark C. Phinney
on
2009-07-18 07:09
If I've read correctly, MP has a history of riding roughshod over parlimentary activity. Is anyone planning a counter strategy for next week?
#5
off2
on
2009-07-15 19:07
The very fact we have Proxies is a disgrace as tro true representation. Unheard of in the Greek or OCA Church. We should have true 2 delegates from each parish (regardless of size). Insteadb we have a Priest receiving his Conv. "packet" with proxies rep. one per 100 souls. Even though 2 or 3 persons from a certain parish, the Priest gets a number of proxy votes (plus 1 for himself). In advance he writes to the Arch'd with the names of those who may or may not actually appear. We remember the West Coast parish with 32 ballots although only six were present from the parish. How weird to pronounce that 98. something of the Arch'd represented with 250 people in the room at best. Only Fri left for true discussion (PM usually only) leaving little opportunity to speak out. Not that Robt's Rules of Order used but only a crowd controlled rulings from the Metropolitan o Chancellors. How did we ever get this sad system? Nothing much changes!
#5.1
Anonymous Clergy & Council Chairman
on
2009-07-15 21:11
Speaking of a disgrace. The so called Pension or Housing Allowance after full years of service is but $800. a month. It is not taxable (that's nice!), but but 1/3rd of the real retirement pensions of the Greek or OCA jurisdictions. And non-vester meaning at the discretion (?) of the Metropolitan alone. No appeal rights should you fall from his "favor".
Last year Met. Philip added $1 Million ... sounds great? But that raised the allowance from $700. to $800. a month. Wonder if the Met. could retire on that.
Of course, he claims, you should have done something on your own! Easily said for a celibate but many clergy raised families and college and spec. health needs.
All that had to be done was remove 4 or 5% from the clergyman's stipend .. and add the same from the Parish budget. (A line item as in the Greek & OCA parishes.
Why are WE different? Because the Met. did'nt want to encumber the parishes with their share. How pathetic.
We even know of a Priest years ago, with family health problems, whose 65yr old wife had to be a cleaning aid at a convalescent home because he could not retire on the allowance plus Social Security.
And what was the cost to the Greek & OCA national churches? Nothing!
Instead we brag about gifts from the "Order", plus the Ladies' (Antiochian Women) and all they raise have brought the original $550. a month to $800.
"We restore the clergy to their dignity". the Met. states. Too bad he could'nt have planned a PROPER METHOD of caring for the clergy after years and years of service.
This should be brought up at the Convention? Who will have the gumption? !
Last year Met. Philip added $1 Million ... sounds great? But that raised the allowance from $700. to $800. a month. Wonder if the Met. could retire on that.
Of course, he claims, you should have done something on your own! Easily said for a celibate but many clergy raised families and college and spec. health needs.
All that had to be done was remove 4 or 5% from the clergyman's stipend .. and add the same from the Parish budget. (A line item as in the Greek & OCA parishes.
Why are WE different? Because the Met. did'nt want to encumber the parishes with their share. How pathetic.
We even know of a Priest years ago, with family health problems, whose 65yr old wife had to be a cleaning aid at a convalescent home because he could not retire on the allowance plus Social Security.
And what was the cost to the Greek & OCA national churches? Nothing!
Instead we brag about gifts from the "Order", plus the Ladies' (Antiochian Women) and all they raise have brought the original $550. a month to $800.
"We restore the clergy to their dignity". the Met. states. Too bad he could'nt have planned a PROPER METHOD of caring for the clergy after years and years of service.
This should be brought up at the Convention? Who will have the gumption? !
#5.1.1
An Antiochian Archd Priest
on
2009-07-16 17:43
Dear Antiochian Archd Priest,
I'm afraid that your characterizations of the retirement plans is not correct. The Antiochian Archdiocese has a 403b plan (the equivalent of a 401k plan for not-for-profits) but it has a number of problems meeting the appropriate tests. I'm not sure that it is even being funded. The OCA has a pension plan and it is not free. Each parish and OCA employee (lay church workers who are paid a salary can also participate) make contributions to the plan. The $800 per month that the Antiochian Archdiocese gives out is not a retirement. Strictly speaking it is a housing allowance. And the only way that it could be deemed non-taxable is if it is funded through a discretionary account. I do agree with one thing that you said though and that is that it is a tragedy that a legitimate retirement plan wasn't established many years ago. Yes, it should be brought up at the convention and a pension plan like the OCA's should be adopted this year. At least then future generations of the church will not have these same problems.
I'm afraid that your characterizations of the retirement plans is not correct. The Antiochian Archdiocese has a 403b plan (the equivalent of a 401k plan for not-for-profits) but it has a number of problems meeting the appropriate tests. I'm not sure that it is even being funded. The OCA has a pension plan and it is not free. Each parish and OCA employee (lay church workers who are paid a salary can also participate) make contributions to the plan. The $800 per month that the Antiochian Archdiocese gives out is not a retirement. Strictly speaking it is a housing allowance. And the only way that it could be deemed non-taxable is if it is funded through a discretionary account. I do agree with one thing that you said though and that is that it is a tragedy that a legitimate retirement plan wasn't established many years ago. Yes, it should be brought up at the convention and a pension plan like the OCA's should be adopted this year. At least then future generations of the church will not have these same problems.
#5.1.1.1
Anon. Antiochian
on
2009-07-17 13:12
It is a scandal that the Archdiocese has no vested pension fund. The only thing worse than the shabby treatment of retired clergy is the neglect of their widows, who get NOTHING.
Priests in the OCA have a decent program, and as was shown in the post above, it gets funded like most pension funds. The priest and the parish would contribute. And then there might be enough retirement income to put a roof over our heads and something in the refrigerator when my husband retires after 40-50 years of not making much. And he didn't enter the priesthood to make a grand salary. But it's terrible that we will struggle to survive when he leaves parish ministry.
Priests in the OCA have a decent program, and as was shown in the post above, it gets funded like most pension funds. The priest and the parish would contribute. And then there might be enough retirement income to put a roof over our heads and something in the refrigerator when my husband retires after 40-50 years of not making much. And he didn't enter the priesthood to make a grand salary. But it's terrible that we will struggle to survive when he leaves parish ministry.
#5.1.1.1.1
Anonymous Khouriyeh
on
2009-07-18 12:11
The Priest who wrote as to Met. P's plan is RIGHT! There is no plan FROM the Arc'd. It is SUGGESTED (if you can afford it) you get one. The true Retirement Plan (which I double agree we should have had decades ago) would make the Priest (for his own benefit) be required to join with P. Council for an amt to be removed from his salary and MATCHED. Like they do in the business World. Cost to the Church-at-Large NOTHING. Met P. failure!
And you are WRONG my tax accountant was specifically and repeatedly told by the IRS (twice) that the housing allowance is tax exempt. That's nice but try to live on $9600. yr plus an avg $ 18,000. S/Scty. Not in this age.
Remember that H.Allow. is NOT vested just up to the Met. when u retire. Figured that it would have cost about $173. mo (avg) from Priest's stipend and another from the Parish Council budget. Can u compre with $ 30K from OCA/Gk plans plus S/Scty?
And you are WRONG my tax accountant was specifically and repeatedly told by the IRS (twice) that the housing allowance is tax exempt. That's nice but try to live on $9600. yr plus an avg $ 18,000. S/Scty. Not in this age.
Remember that H.Allow. is NOT vested just up to the Met. when u retire. Figured that it would have cost about $173. mo (avg) from Priest's stipend and another from the Parish Council budget. Can u compre with $ 30K from OCA/Gk plans plus S/Scty?
#5.1.1.1.2
Anonymous Priest
on
2009-07-18 16:04
Oh my Goodness! Just read a FANTASTIC article on
ARAB ORTHODOXY by Archmandrite Touma of St Silouan Monastery of Douma, Lebanon.
What an article by an Orthodox cleric who has no ax to grinde.He attributes all the present Antiochiam "Mess" to POWER, POWER, POWER! Read it before going to tyhe Convention. Print it out and save it. A true GEM even relating to the OCA in America - a learned person, indeed, as many I queried in the Middle Eassaid "OCA" a type of electrical current. Look up ARAB ORTHODOXY and you will not be disappointed! Perhaps will reprint it soon.
ARAB ORTHODOXY by Archmandrite Touma of St Silouan Monastery of Douma, Lebanon.
What an article by an Orthodox cleric who has no ax to grinde.He attributes all the present Antiochiam "Mess" to POWER, POWER, POWER! Read it before going to tyhe Convention. Print it out and save it. A true GEM even relating to the OCA in America - a learned person, indeed, as many I queried in the Middle Eassaid "OCA" a type of electrical current. Look up ARAB ORTHODOXY and you will not be disappointed! Perhaps will reprint it soon.
#5.1.2
An Antiocian
on
2009-07-16 18:51
Correction - look it up under -
NOTES ON ARAB ORTHODOXY
You'll be rewarded!
NOTES ON ARAB ORTHODOXY
You'll be rewarded!
#5.1.3
Antiochian
on
2009-07-16 18:57
If MP resorts to his abusive ways everyone should simply walkout.
It is peaceful and sends a strong message.
We have heard enough.
Now it is time to listen!
Listen to our feet leaving the room.
If he does not hear that perhaps he will hear them leaving ANTIOCH.
He will no longer see the CASH FLOW....
It is peaceful and sends a strong message.
We have heard enough.
Now it is time to listen!
Listen to our feet leaving the room.
If he does not hear that perhaps he will hear them leaving ANTIOCH.
He will no longer see the CASH FLOW....
#6
stage a walkout
on
2009-07-15 20:34
A walkout would be fun, but it would leave behind rabid MP supporters and fence-sitters. Far better to stand our ground. If someone is ordered to sit down, MP should be reminded that Robert's Rules was explicitly rejected by the General Convention and that no rules exist for ordering the meeting. If he insists, all supporting laity ought to stand up and in support of the person attempting to speak. We can still walk our dollars out the door.
#6.1
Stand Up and Stay Put
on
2009-07-16 07:10
I agree. If such a situation arises, it seems far preferable when one holds the high moral ground to actually stand on it. Peacefully stand, silently face the abuser in solidarity, look him right in the eye, and demonstrate clearly that you are not going anywhere until all reasonable issues are addressed. This is far more powerful than turning your back and walking away. I also realize that it will take courage.
God willing, the situation will not arise.
God willing, the situation will not arise.
#6.1.1
An Antiochian Parishioner (who is also a Delegate)
on
2009-07-17 11:47
If procedure is abused, everyone should walk out, except one lay delegate with only his own vote, who should politely make a quorum call.
(The quorum requirements under the Archdiocesan Constitution are a majority of the 'units' of the Archdiocese present in person or by proxy, and a majority of the full-time clergy present either in person or by proxy.)
(The quorum requirements under the Archdiocesan Constitution are a majority of the 'units' of the Archdiocese present in person or by proxy, and a majority of the full-time clergy present either in person or by proxy.)
#6.2
Subdeacon David [Yetter]
on
2009-07-16 08:50
DISCLAIMER: I am a member of the OCA, not the Antiochian Archdiocese. I have attended three (3) All-American Councils as an observer, not a parish lay delegate.
CAUTION: The following is unsolicited advice and worth every paid. It relies upon a more than cursory knowledge of parliamentary procedure according to Robert's Rules of Order, Newly Revised, Tenth Edition -- it is parliamentary procedure hardball, and those using it will be vilified.
The following is a more detailed list of what you may need to do to make a walkout a very effective form of protest. The most effective way to stage a walkout requires thorough planning and preparation.
Before the meeting begins:
a. Determine the number of delegates, and proxies, if applicable, that constitute a quorum under the applicable governing documents.
b. Determine how many like-minded delegates, and proxies, if applicable, would actually participate in a walkout. If the number minus two (2) would reduce the number attending the sessions of the meeting to less than the number required for a quorum, designate two persons to remain in the meeting, if a walkout becomes necessary.
c. Determine the characteristics of the situation that would require a walkout as your, the organized group's, response. make sure that everyone agrees to the determining characteristics.
At the beginning of the first session of the meeting, make a motion that the meeting adopt Robert's Rules of Order, Newly Revised, Tenth Edition as the manual of parliamentaary procedure governing the conduct of the meeting and all its sessions. If that motion does not pass, that is definitely the first point at which you should consider walking out.
If the motion to adopt Robert's Rules of Order passes and the circumstances requiring a walkout develop:
a. the organized group quietly walks out en masse, and
b. the one of the two remaining members of the group raises a point of order, calling the lack of a quorum to the attention of the presiding officer. The lack of a quorum forces the current session to either recess or adjourn.
Repeat steps (a) and (b) above until either the offending situation is rectified to your satisfaction, or the larger meeting recesses or adjourns.
No matter what happens, the group walking out, and especially whoever raises the point of order concerning the lack of a quorum will be vilified. These actions will require courage and a great strength of conviction on the part of each person involved.
May Our triune God bless and guide in whichever path you choose.
CAUTION: The following is unsolicited advice and worth every paid. It relies upon a more than cursory knowledge of parliamentary procedure according to Robert's Rules of Order, Newly Revised, Tenth Edition -- it is parliamentary procedure hardball, and those using it will be vilified.
The following is a more detailed list of what you may need to do to make a walkout a very effective form of protest. The most effective way to stage a walkout requires thorough planning and preparation.
Before the meeting begins:
a. Determine the number of delegates, and proxies, if applicable, that constitute a quorum under the applicable governing documents.
b. Determine how many like-minded delegates, and proxies, if applicable, would actually participate in a walkout. If the number minus two (2) would reduce the number attending the sessions of the meeting to less than the number required for a quorum, designate two persons to remain in the meeting, if a walkout becomes necessary.
c. Determine the characteristics of the situation that would require a walkout as your, the organized group's, response. make sure that everyone agrees to the determining characteristics.
At the beginning of the first session of the meeting, make a motion that the meeting adopt Robert's Rules of Order, Newly Revised, Tenth Edition as the manual of parliamentaary procedure governing the conduct of the meeting and all its sessions. If that motion does not pass, that is definitely the first point at which you should consider walking out.
If the motion to adopt Robert's Rules of Order passes and the circumstances requiring a walkout develop:
a. the organized group quietly walks out en masse, and
b. the one of the two remaining members of the group raises a point of order, calling the lack of a quorum to the attention of the presiding officer. The lack of a quorum forces the current session to either recess or adjourn.
Repeat steps (a) and (b) above until either the offending situation is rectified to your satisfaction, or the larger meeting recesses or adjourns.
No matter what happens, the group walking out, and especially whoever raises the point of order concerning the lack of a quorum will be vilified. These actions will require courage and a great strength of conviction on the part of each person involved.
May Our triune God bless and guide in whichever path you choose.
#6.3
Mark C. Phinney
on
2009-07-18 08:11
There is an excellent commentary by Archimandrite Touma about the Antiochian situation at the following blog:
http://araborthodoxy.blogspot.com/2009/07/archimandrite-touma-bitar-on.html
I realize the question about the Antiochian bishops may be more or less answered, nevertheless this is good to read for those interested in Orthodoxy in America.
http://araborthodoxy.blogspot.com/2009/07/archimandrite-touma-bitar-on.html
I realize the question about the Antiochian bishops may be more or less answered, nevertheless this is good to read for those interested in Orthodoxy in America.
#7
Kathy Erickson
on
2009-07-16 10:46
No audit = NO BUDGET
#8
stop the money
on
2009-07-17 03:15
Much related of weeks past but WHAT is a "convention"? Not at all like the Clergy-Laity (GOA) or All Amer. Council (OCA).
Not at all! At best a gathering of those who can afford a $20. "activity ticket" plus about $160. a nite hotel fees, etc. etc. A true "vacation" spot with some religiosity thrown in. Basically with daily Liturgy/Vespers and assigned sermons. Wede. a loss with "committee" meetings held, as the Met. says, "For your input!" A laugh what with all reports already printed and even on the Ant. website EXCEPT for tyhe financial, of course.
Host parish (they bid) in thyisa case far off St Michael (Van Nuys,Ca) 2 hrs away. Desert location chosen for cheap summer rates (114deg predicted for nxt week)! Isolated from even any close Antiochian parishes (except for a local "mission" of 12 families. Host parish gets 60% of proceeds and the Arch'd 40%. Expensive evening events with some youth (about 125 attend w/parents) programs. Some regard each other as "old consistent friends" caring little for the Thursday (all day rehashed "reports" boring at best wityh few questions asked. Delegates primed at three microphones in order to get their names in the Minutes. Prestige back home?! Friday will be the great "State of the Union", always boring with a catchy quote at the end! Something to take home.
Fri. afternoon, a Desert Storm, or weak kneeded business as usual. What do you keep repeating? No Audit no budget! Not with the "vacation fun Group present"! Even emotional "faithful and long rewarded favorites" clergy giving orator like laudations for the Met's big "40th"!
Yes, my parish priest read this, and with many agree. BUT the long entrenched "favorites" will prevail. Much pre arranged as usual with the Met.'s approval. Goodbye Mr Koory we'll miss you. Welcome Mr. Ajalat who did not win prize for "courage"? Going to miss much at the "Convention"? Doubt it. My Priest says he has to go with few delegates (affording as no parish renumeration except for clergy) but pass Conventions have always as a "delegate" gathering been a disappointment. Proxy votes are a laugh with few actual parish serious parishioners present. Not attending next week. No loss put the funds expended for the real poor and missions!
Not at all! At best a gathering of those who can afford a $20. "activity ticket" plus about $160. a nite hotel fees, etc. etc. A true "vacation" spot with some religiosity thrown in. Basically with daily Liturgy/Vespers and assigned sermons. Wede. a loss with "committee" meetings held, as the Met. says, "For your input!" A laugh what with all reports already printed and even on the Ant. website EXCEPT for tyhe financial, of course.
Host parish (they bid) in thyisa case far off St Michael (Van Nuys,Ca) 2 hrs away. Desert location chosen for cheap summer rates (114deg predicted for nxt week)! Isolated from even any close Antiochian parishes (except for a local "mission" of 12 families. Host parish gets 60% of proceeds and the Arch'd 40%. Expensive evening events with some youth (about 125 attend w/parents) programs. Some regard each other as "old consistent friends" caring little for the Thursday (all day rehashed "reports" boring at best wityh few questions asked. Delegates primed at three microphones in order to get their names in the Minutes. Prestige back home?! Friday will be the great "State of the Union", always boring with a catchy quote at the end! Something to take home.
Fri. afternoon, a Desert Storm, or weak kneeded business as usual. What do you keep repeating? No Audit no budget! Not with the "vacation fun Group present"! Even emotional "faithful and long rewarded favorites" clergy giving orator like laudations for the Met's big "40th"!
Yes, my parish priest read this, and with many agree. BUT the long entrenched "favorites" will prevail. Much pre arranged as usual with the Met.'s approval. Goodbye Mr Koory we'll miss you. Welcome Mr. Ajalat who did not win prize for "courage"? Going to miss much at the "Convention"? Doubt it. My Priest says he has to go with few delegates (affording as no parish renumeration except for clergy) but pass Conventions have always as a "delegate" gathering been a disappointment. Proxy votes are a laugh with few actual parish serious parishioners present. Not attending next week. No loss put the funds expended for the real poor and missions!
#8.1
Anonymous Western Region (Diocese?)
on
2009-07-17 10:01
not going and not going to say anything? then way complain, why post here? gimme a break
Anonymous Western Region/Diocese,
I have not had the "pleasure" of attending a GOA Clergy-Laity Congress (or whatever they call it); I have attended three of the last four OCA All-American Councils (2 in Pittsburgh and 1 in Orlando) at my own expense as an observer. Given the number in attendance, where other than a major metropolitan area or a major vacation resort would have the facilities to stage a congress/convention/council? I, for one, am thankful for the "religiosity thrown in": the Divine Liturgies, Vespers, and Matins made the AACs I attended something much more than necessary, but expensive business meetings.
As one who has fought a number of period of very deep cynicism, it appears to me that you suffer from a very deep cynicism regarding your jurisdiction. (I am fighting with a growing cynicism regarding my hierarchs; I'm a member of the OCA.) You need to fight the cynicism on both the spiritual front -- under the guidance of your confessor -- and the practical front. Fighting on the practical front involves
a. becoming as knowledgeable as possible regarding the committee reports,
b. providing your parish delegates -- both clergy and laity -- with questions for those making committee reports and running the convention and Archdiocese, and
c. working within your parish or mission to change what happens at future conventions and within the Archdiocese.
A very tall order, and it will take a lot of time and a great deal of effort on your part -- and those of many others. The alternative is to let the Evil One continue the work of hardening your heart, stopping your ears, and blinding your eyes to the work each member of the Church -- that's you and that's me -- called by Our Lord and Master to do: protect the Body of Believers and bring those outside the Body into its saving embrace.
If I have offended in any way, please forgive me.
I have not had the "pleasure" of attending a GOA Clergy-Laity Congress (or whatever they call it); I have attended three of the last four OCA All-American Councils (2 in Pittsburgh and 1 in Orlando) at my own expense as an observer. Given the number in attendance, where other than a major metropolitan area or a major vacation resort would have the facilities to stage a congress/convention/council? I, for one, am thankful for the "religiosity thrown in": the Divine Liturgies, Vespers, and Matins made the AACs I attended something much more than necessary, but expensive business meetings.
As one who has fought a number of period of very deep cynicism, it appears to me that you suffer from a very deep cynicism regarding your jurisdiction. (I am fighting with a growing cynicism regarding my hierarchs; I'm a member of the OCA.) You need to fight the cynicism on both the spiritual front -- under the guidance of your confessor -- and the practical front. Fighting on the practical front involves
a. becoming as knowledgeable as possible regarding the committee reports,
b. providing your parish delegates -- both clergy and laity -- with questions for those making committee reports and running the convention and Archdiocese, and
c. working within your parish or mission to change what happens at future conventions and within the Archdiocese.
A very tall order, and it will take a lot of time and a great deal of effort on your part -- and those of many others. The alternative is to let the Evil One continue the work of hardening your heart, stopping your ears, and blinding your eyes to the work each member of the Church -- that's you and that's me -- called by Our Lord and Master to do: protect the Body of Believers and bring those outside the Body into its saving embrace.
If I have offended in any way, please forgive me.
#8.1.2
Mark C. Phinney
on
2009-07-18 08:46
Typo correction, I believe! The Activity Ticket for the Convention is $ 250.00 each. Only a Thousand for a family of four !! Rather give mine to the Missions that "I" know legitamately exist!
#8.1.3
Anonymous
on
2009-07-18 10:47
Am I correct in thinking that a rephrasing of your comment above might be "Hierarchs are champions of ignorance, indifference, complacency, collaboration, and lack of understanding." ?
That Mr. Phinney is a fair rendering of my sentiments. Of course I may want to qualify that assesment based on what happens this week at our God Protected Archdiocesan Convention.
I am anxious to see what our "Assistants" to the Metropolitan do and say as well as how their Master directs his newly titled servants.
That Mr. Phinney is a fair rendering of my sentiments. Of course I may want to qualify that assesment based on what happens this week at our God Protected Archdiocesan Convention.
I am anxious to see what our "Assistants" to the Metropolitan do and say as well as how their Master directs his newly titled servants.
#9
Kevin Kirwan
on
2009-07-20 18:03
Just arrived, it is hot, hot , hot.... but not hotter than the general assembly is going to be. word was that MP's meeting with the Clergy on Friday left everyone unsatisfied. So at the general Assemble do not pass the Budget without an Audit. To recap:
No Audit = No Budget.
Sweatin in the desert....
No Audit = No Budget.
Sweatin in the desert....
#10
Delegate #1
on
2009-07-20 21:10
Hot... Hot...Hot was the Clergy Meeting with the Hierarchs. His Emminence chaired the meeting, made mention of this website and the things that are said about him. Spent some time dismissing the rumors about the separation between convert and cradle priest and trotted out the delegation assuring the clergy that the three resolutions were not forged. Then he had a strained discussion with Fr.Oliver over Bishop Demetri's status and the New chancellor was brought forth to defend Demetri's transfer to Mexico. So business as usual... with Bp. Antoun passing the blame to the priest who nominated the Trustees (i.e. Khalife)... the only concession was that His eminence agreed to bring to the Board of Trustees the well articulated concern that Fr John Mashburn had requiring an independent financial Audit of the Archdiocese. In truth we do not need to wait for the Board of trustees where this same issue has been squelched in the past. It is going to be a motion on the floor at this general assembly and it will pass because if I have said it once I will say it again....
NO AUDIT = NO BUDGET !
NO AUDIT = NO BUDGET !
#10.1
Delegate #1
on
2009-07-22 07:56
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