Thursday, July 23. 2009
The Audit Report/ The General Assembly
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There is some interesting reporting going on over at The Ochlophobist, too. Those of us of a certain age no doubt remember Mayor Daley's goon squads at the Democratic National Convention in 1968. This is all too familiar. We should not be surprised, however, when thugs act like thugs. Lord, have mercy, and protect the delegates from the fake security goons who are roughing people up.
What in the blue hell are Met Philip and his pals so afraid of?
What in the blue hell are Met Philip and his pals so afraid of?
#1
Scott Walker
on
2009-07-23 13:26
As horrifying and exasperating as this situation is, it's actually good to know that Met Philip and his cronies are making such a stir. It's sure to alert even more people to the crisis.
I can't help but be reminded of a certain chapter in Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix. In the book, Harry gives an interview to "The Quibbler" magazine, detailing what happened to him at the end of the previous book, a truth which the establishment and Professor Umbridge don't like. They mercilessly persecute anyone who knows the truth because it would expose their own arrogance, ignorance, and failures. So they start confiscating copies of the magazine at Hogwarts - thereby ensuring that everyone will read it. They create a ravenous demand for the truth by their brutal attempts to conceal it!
Met. Philip is a very Umbridge-esque character - superficially sweet and likable, but with a nasty streak a mile wide underneath. I predict he will meet the end of his rule the same way she did - being done in by the very personality flaws through which he created this mess. (Failing that, maybe we could find some centaurs and giants.
)
I can't help but be reminded of a certain chapter in Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix. In the book, Harry gives an interview to "The Quibbler" magazine, detailing what happened to him at the end of the previous book, a truth which the establishment and Professor Umbridge don't like. They mercilessly persecute anyone who knows the truth because it would expose their own arrogance, ignorance, and failures. So they start confiscating copies of the magazine at Hogwarts - thereby ensuring that everyone will read it. They create a ravenous demand for the truth by their brutal attempts to conceal it!
Met. Philip is a very Umbridge-esque character - superficially sweet and likable, but with a nasty streak a mile wide underneath. I predict he will meet the end of his rule the same way she did - being done in by the very personality flaws through which he created this mess. (Failing that, maybe we could find some centaurs and giants.
)
#2
Cordelia
on
2009-07-23 13:42
Terrific HP reference. My wife and I talked about the Philip/Dolores comparison when we discussed this earlier today. From what's being reported, though, we aren't too far from Death Eater stuff, kinda like what went down at Bill and Fleur's wedding. Good thing these thugs can't apparate.
#2.1
Scott Walker
on
2009-07-23 15:12
External audits of an organization such as our Archdiocese need to be standard operating procedure. In fact our Hierarchs and Trustees should be leading the way on this issue because credibility is a currency that's worth more and lasts longer than cash.
Fr John Chagnon
St. Elias Orthodox Church
LaCrosse, WI
Fr John Chagnon
St. Elias Orthodox Church
LaCrosse, WI
How SHAMEFUL to have security supposedly belonging to the Hotel. The Management should be informed! Ah Met Philip and your "boys in action". Hide the truth ? What a free Church - don't talk about Soviet Russia! Even unauthorized statements should be read. AND THE TRUTH SHALL MAKE YOU FREE! Not with Met P. I was there. Shameful. No I will not sing the Many Years urged tmw PM by arrangement - but will mouth the words less my parish be scorned.
Has BEEN an Archdiocese of FEAR since the early 80's !!
Has BEEN an Archdiocese of FEAR since the early 80's !!
#4
Anonymous Priest
on
2009-07-23 14:50
The "security" are parishioners.
#4.1
William
on
2009-07-24 08:20
Mark Stookey? Is he one of the guys from Peter, Paul, & Mary?
(Editor's note: Don't I wish I could sing and play guitar like that - but then, I would be Fr. Dennis Buck, wouldn't I?)
(Editor's note: Don't I wish I could sing and play guitar like that - but then, I would be Fr. Dennis Buck, wouldn't I?)
#5
Rdr Mo
on
2009-07-23 14:52
Its interesting to note the attention to the two signatures on cheques.
As a parish council member for one of the Southeast Dioceses church for over two years, I witnessed cheques being " countersigned in advance" by the second person, weeks before they were actually needed. All that was needed was the priest signature and they were live. When questioned on this the answer was it was easier that way. Also we had no review of any books at all. THEY never existed, and the priest would be enraged that we would even ask for them.
A few years back, an investigation of alleged inproprieties was made by Bishop Antoun, and of course nothing was found. Small wonder since the diocese as a whole has the same accounting problem.
As a parish council member for one of the Southeast Dioceses church for over two years, I witnessed cheques being " countersigned in advance" by the second person, weeks before they were actually needed. All that was needed was the priest signature and they were live. When questioned on this the answer was it was easier that way. Also we had no review of any books at all. THEY never existed, and the priest would be enraged that we would even ask for them.
A few years back, an investigation of alleged inproprieties was made by Bishop Antoun, and of course nothing was found. Small wonder since the diocese as a whole has the same accounting problem.
#6
Orthodoxmonk
on
2009-07-23 15:41
As the Parish Treasurer, I once asked our bank representative regarding double signatures. Unless the check is quite large, it ceased being bank procedure a long time ago for the bank to even check ONE signature against the official signature card. Hence it is difficult to understand what good two signatures is accomplishing, aside from giving the appearance of rigorous internal procedures. Perhaps someone could enlighten me, but the bottom line is that an audit needs to establish in any event that all expenditures were authorized/appropriate.
#6.1
Steve Knowlton
on
2009-07-23 21:31
quite true, heck they dont even check the date on cheques anymore to see if its in the future or way in the past, they just process it.according to the bank "postdated" cheques are illegal in Florida, thats why they dont check the dates.
I agree fully. coming from an accounting background myself, I was appalled at such practices but even more appalled that the members of the council were all a bunch of lackeys who counted see anything wrong with doing it that way, didnt see a need to keep detailed accounting records and basically said "how high" when the priest asked them to jump ...
I agree fully. coming from an accounting background myself, I was appalled at such practices but even more appalled that the members of the council were all a bunch of lackeys who counted see anything wrong with doing it that way, didnt see a need to keep detailed accounting records and basically said "how high" when the priest asked them to jump ...
#6.1.1
Orthodoxmonk
on
2009-07-24 16:48
If I recall correctly, the OCA also required double signatures on checks during the Kondratick administration. The only problem is that there was usually a stack of checks readily available to the former Chancellor that already had one authorized signature on them, thus allowing him to affix his own signature without the other person knowing how the check was to be used or, in this case, abused.
Sic semper tyrannis,
Nemo
Sic semper tyrannis,
Nemo
#6.2
Nemo
on
2009-07-24 21:40
thats exactly what I mean . The ability to do it is there, we should not even allow ourselves to be exposed to the possibility of wrongdoing by such practices. Didnt know that the OCA had the identical problem, and look what happened.
#6.2.1
Anonymous
on
2009-07-26 15:20
I think that everyone at the Convention should start identifying themselves as "Mark Stookey," like in Sparticus.
"I'm Mark Stookey."
"No, I am Mark Stookey!"
"He lies! I am Mark Stookey!"
"I'm Mark Stookey."
"No, I am Mark Stookey!"
"He lies! I am Mark Stookey!"
#7
A Fellow Orthodox Christian
on
2009-07-23 17:36
I think I'm going to have some t-shirts made that say "I am Mark Stookey!" and sell them outside all orthodox events!
#7.1
Entrepeneur
on
2009-07-26 09:52
Security guards at a church council, stationed to intimidate?
And we honestly wonder why there's such a thing as atheism in the world?
How is anyone supposed to see Jesus Christ in any of this?
And we honestly wonder why there's such a thing as atheism in the world?
How is anyone supposed to see Jesus Christ in any of this?
#8
Gregory
on
2009-07-23 18:49
Gregory, you've hit the nail on the head! We wonder why people don't "want to be Orthodox", or more so don't even want to be Christian or believe in God at all. And we act all "shocked" and confused, "I just don't get why they don't believe""...then we go around acting like THIS!? exactly like many of the Pharisees and Sadduccees Jesus preached against? It's amazing how every Holy Week these Bishops and priests read the "woes to the scribes and Pharisees" and I guess imagine it only applies to people LONG, LONG ago....it applies to US, today, both clergy and laity.
This is sick, and IMO is way, way too similar to some of the more questionable things that transpired in Byzantine times. This is the sort of thing that goes on in the Church in America where we have separation of Church and state, laws of equality, and rights for all people and all religions. Freedom of speech and other "western" ideas....Just imagine if many people got their wish and the "Byzantine Empire" was revived and us poor laity had no way of speaking out? We'd be more than man handled out the door, we'd be hauled off to some prison or exiled, excommunicated, or maybe worse just like in the "good old days" of the Byzantine Empire! And in all this, where is Jesus Christ? We can trash and accuse our Catholic and Protestant brethren all we like, but as far as I know thuggery at this level ended some time ago in western Christianity. If people applied Jesus words "by their fruits you shall know them" to the Church, would they find Christ's Church in THIS? Highly doubtful....
Very sad indeed, and like you said, where is Jesus in all this? 'sigh'
This is sick, and IMO is way, way too similar to some of the more questionable things that transpired in Byzantine times. This is the sort of thing that goes on in the Church in America where we have separation of Church and state, laws of equality, and rights for all people and all religions. Freedom of speech and other "western" ideas....Just imagine if many people got their wish and the "Byzantine Empire" was revived and us poor laity had no way of speaking out? We'd be more than man handled out the door, we'd be hauled off to some prison or exiled, excommunicated, or maybe worse just like in the "good old days" of the Byzantine Empire! And in all this, where is Jesus Christ? We can trash and accuse our Catholic and Protestant brethren all we like, but as far as I know thuggery at this level ended some time ago in western Christianity. If people applied Jesus words "by their fruits you shall know them" to the Church, would they find Christ's Church in THIS? Highly doubtful....
Very sad indeed, and like you said, where is Jesus in all this? 'sigh'
#8.1
Chuck Shingledecker
on
2009-07-25 08:09
Well, I am pleased as punch to be am American, but I don't think Byzantium was the totalitarian environment you suggest. In fact, many of us take our inspiration as dissenters from Christians of that age. (Florence is one example, and the false depositions of St. John Chrysostom are another.) It's worth recalling that the ancient oath taken by a bishop requires him to promise that he will not stray from what is right "for fear of the people." What is right, after all, is not always popular; and evidently this could create quite a dilemma in Byzantium.
I would also note that the saints seemed to have no problem with the Byzantine form of government and of course anyone who read Greek philosophy, as many of them did, would have been aware of other possibilities. Coronation, in fact, is a Mystery of the Church. None of this is to deny the failings and abuses of that period, but I don't think we are justified in simply dismissing it.
As to "thuggery at this level" having ended in the West long ago I wish it had. Unfortunately, the native children of Alaska were having their Orthodoxy beaten out of them by protestants well into the twentieth century; and it was 1993 when John Paul II beatified Cardinal Stepinac. The spirit of such things, all too often, remains even to the present day. (For that matter, I wouldn't care for the manner of governance that has produced the contemporary Episcopal Church friends tell me that some forms of thuggery are the more pernicious for their seeming tolerance.)
Not that the failings of others give us anything to be proud of nor are there any excuses for the wretched farce of Christian governance that we have before us now. I've written before about the high bar that unrighteousness has to meet in order for rebellion such as this to be God-pleasing. After listening to some of the convention recordings, I fear that we are looking down on that bar from a considerably greater height than I had supposed.
It's a long road ahead, to be sure. Still as I must often remind myself it is one that we can manage if we keep our eyes on Christ.
I would also note that the saints seemed to have no problem with the Byzantine form of government and of course anyone who read Greek philosophy, as many of them did, would have been aware of other possibilities. Coronation, in fact, is a Mystery of the Church. None of this is to deny the failings and abuses of that period, but I don't think we are justified in simply dismissing it.
As to "thuggery at this level" having ended in the West long ago I wish it had. Unfortunately, the native children of Alaska were having their Orthodoxy beaten out of them by protestants well into the twentieth century; and it was 1993 when John Paul II beatified Cardinal Stepinac. The spirit of such things, all too often, remains even to the present day. (For that matter, I wouldn't care for the manner of governance that has produced the contemporary Episcopal Church friends tell me that some forms of thuggery are the more pernicious for their seeming tolerance.)
Not that the failings of others give us anything to be proud of nor are there any excuses for the wretched farce of Christian governance that we have before us now. I've written before about the high bar that unrighteousness has to meet in order for rebellion such as this to be God-pleasing. After listening to some of the convention recordings, I fear that we are looking down on that bar from a considerably greater height than I had supposed.
It's a long road ahead, to be sure. Still as I must often remind myself it is one that we can manage if we keep our eyes on Christ.
#8.1.1
A Fellow Orthodox Christian
on
2009-07-27 13:56
Mark Stookey, you're my hero.
If Fr Oliver Herbel is the devil, what does that make you?!
If Fr Oliver Herbel is the devil, what does that make you?!
#9
An East Coast Priest
on
2009-07-23 19:52
Let me get this straight...
The Antiochian authority thinks you'd be clandestine enough to show up at their convention?
Wow.
When people behave in a clandestine fashion on their own for years, they just don't get it when they have a light cast on them.
They themselves want to believe you are the clandestine one.
Precious reminders of Metropolitan Herman's initial responses.
As soon as the Antiochians embrace the idea that you are just shining a light on them and not an evil nemesis; they will be much better off.
The Antiochian authority thinks you'd be clandestine enough to show up at their convention?
Wow.
When people behave in a clandestine fashion on their own for years, they just don't get it when they have a light cast on them.
They themselves want to believe you are the clandestine one.
Precious reminders of Metropolitan Herman's initial responses.
As soon as the Antiochians embrace the idea that you are just shining a light on them and not an evil nemesis; they will be much better off.
#10
Daniel E. Fall
on
2009-07-23 21:10
I was one of the people handing out the booklets - "On the Necessity for an Ongoing Independent External Financial Audit of the Self-Ruled Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America" - inside the General Assembly Hall on Thursday (today).
Handing them out in the Hall was a mistake (in hindsight) because there is an archdiocese rule - that we should have respected (but I was not aware of) - that all reports must be pre-approved before they are handed out to delegates, etc. It IS after all an archdiocesan convention, not a free-for-all.
I was told after handing quite a few out in the Hall by archdiocesan security (yes, wearing blue "security" shirts [however all conventions have securituy provided by the host parish and this was no exception] that we could not hand them out in the Hall, as it was not public space. Fair enough. I went outside to the public corridor, and continued.
Shortly after, one of the host organizers, approached me agitatedly and pulled the booklets out of my arms and said I was not allowed to hand them out at all. I appealed to the Second Amendment and rationalized that this was America, but to no avail! This was done in full public view, with one of our Bishops watching. I decided that responding to this man would only ratchet things up, so I accepted the fact that he "put me out of business." [The Bishop who witnessed this appealed with great calm and courage I thought to the security man that while he understood the reason for keeping us out of the Geberal Assembly Hall, he had no right to restrict us from passing out the booklets in the public corridor. The argument between them became rather heated].
I proceeded to go inside where others continued to hand out the books. I understand there was quite a bit of jostling and shoving and one report has it that one of the purveyors of the booklets was slightly injured. I did not see that myself but have heard it from others. Quite a few delegates and Trustess receibved copies. I have heard that securiity tried to "confiscate" booklets from priests and delagtes who had copies of them; one priest refused and almost got into a scuffle. Later I was told the box containing several hunderd of the booklets had been located by archdiocese security and removed from the premises.
I had a good conversation with one prominent and - I think - good man and Trustee who said that the problem with this was that a demand for an audit came under a cloud of "distrust". I said that I understood his concern, that I loved Met. Philip, but that the Board had allowed His Eminence to function without accountability for too long and things needed to change. He said that if an audit were demanded it could result in tax consequences. I said, well, we have to live at least at parity with the world's standards, and preferably above them, as we claimn to be the "one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church".
I do not know whether there has been financial malfeasance in our archdiocese. There have been rumors and allegations. It seems very clear to me that the very least is that our archdiocese assets are not being stated; transactions are not being reported; and, income is not being reported. There may be more. We won't know until accountability is demanded.
I fear for our archdiocese and our Board in this area (financial). The Board has been "rubber stamping" for years a budget that is not really a budget at all and one no legitimate business could stand behind in terms of standard accounting practices.
I realize the paradigms for financial accountability and transparency in the Orthodox world to this date have not been consistent with standard accounting methods and procedures. But it is really time to change this. Our Board needs to demand - tomorrow - that the budget the archdiocese is asking them to approve must have line items, a full income statement and a balance sheet, indicating all assets and transactions BEFORE it CAN BE approved.
Should this not occur and should the budget that is being presented be approved, the Board is equally guilty. That includes laity and clergy.
Lord Have Mercy! Christ Have Mercy!
Handing them out in the Hall was a mistake (in hindsight) because there is an archdiocese rule - that we should have respected (but I was not aware of) - that all reports must be pre-approved before they are handed out to delegates, etc. It IS after all an archdiocesan convention, not a free-for-all.
I was told after handing quite a few out in the Hall by archdiocesan security (yes, wearing blue "security" shirts [however all conventions have securituy provided by the host parish and this was no exception] that we could not hand them out in the Hall, as it was not public space. Fair enough. I went outside to the public corridor, and continued.
Shortly after, one of the host organizers, approached me agitatedly and pulled the booklets out of my arms and said I was not allowed to hand them out at all. I appealed to the Second Amendment and rationalized that this was America, but to no avail! This was done in full public view, with one of our Bishops watching. I decided that responding to this man would only ratchet things up, so I accepted the fact that he "put me out of business." [The Bishop who witnessed this appealed with great calm and courage I thought to the security man that while he understood the reason for keeping us out of the Geberal Assembly Hall, he had no right to restrict us from passing out the booklets in the public corridor. The argument between them became rather heated].
I proceeded to go inside where others continued to hand out the books. I understand there was quite a bit of jostling and shoving and one report has it that one of the purveyors of the booklets was slightly injured. I did not see that myself but have heard it from others. Quite a few delegates and Trustess receibved copies. I have heard that securiity tried to "confiscate" booklets from priests and delagtes who had copies of them; one priest refused and almost got into a scuffle. Later I was told the box containing several hunderd of the booklets had been located by archdiocese security and removed from the premises.
I had a good conversation with one prominent and - I think - good man and Trustee who said that the problem with this was that a demand for an audit came under a cloud of "distrust". I said that I understood his concern, that I loved Met. Philip, but that the Board had allowed His Eminence to function without accountability for too long and things needed to change. He said that if an audit were demanded it could result in tax consequences. I said, well, we have to live at least at parity with the world's standards, and preferably above them, as we claimn to be the "one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church".
I do not know whether there has been financial malfeasance in our archdiocese. There have been rumors and allegations. It seems very clear to me that the very least is that our archdiocese assets are not being stated; transactions are not being reported; and, income is not being reported. There may be more. We won't know until accountability is demanded.
I fear for our archdiocese and our Board in this area (financial). The Board has been "rubber stamping" for years a budget that is not really a budget at all and one no legitimate business could stand behind in terms of standard accounting practices.
I realize the paradigms for financial accountability and transparency in the Orthodox world to this date have not been consistent with standard accounting methods and procedures. But it is really time to change this. Our Board needs to demand - tomorrow - that the budget the archdiocese is asking them to approve must have line items, a full income statement and a balance sheet, indicating all assets and transactions BEFORE it CAN BE approved.
Should this not occur and should the budget that is being presented be approved, the Board is equally guilty. That includes laity and clergy.
Lord Have Mercy! Christ Have Mercy!
#11
anonymous by choice
on
2009-07-23 21:30
In hindsight, it's unfortunate that the audit report wasn't finished a few days earlier and published on the web before everyone left for Palm Desert. This would have avoided a lot of hassle and allowed everyone to study it in detail before the Convention.
But, better late than never...
But, better late than never...
#11.1
JPS
on
2009-07-24 11:01
This sounds just like what was going on in the OCA. If there is no impropriety going on, why should they object to an external audit? You'd only object if you know that there is a lot of improprieties going on and you want to keep them hidden. Hopefully, Met. Phillip will learn from what happened to Met Herman, but I have to admit that it doesn't sound like he has. Hang in there, and don't let them stop you from seeing that the truth comes out and that there needs to be accountability.
#11.2
Janice Chadwick
on
2009-07-24 16:43
No, it is an Arch'd rule that RESOLUTIONS should be preapproved by the legal comm. Not reports. Too bad your given something you don;t like or approve of - toss it! What happened to freedom. MANY told me the meetings were rough with the Met. (as usual) domineering over all !!
#11.3
Anonymous
on
2009-07-24 22:11
Likeusual MP told one lie after another.
His credibility is down the proverbial toilet.
His credibility is down the proverbial toilet.
#12
anonymous
on
2009-07-23 22:53
A Question for Metropolitan Philip:
You say you are unaware of any trustees with criminal records and that you are not to blame for any bad apples. How is it that two of the trustees whom you sent as representatives of our Archdiocese to the Holy Synod Meeting in Damascus have criminal records? How is it that one of these trustees, who has a history of charity fraud, is the registered agent of the Balamand Education Foundation?
Sayedna, are you asking us to believe that you knew nothing about the criminal pasts of Fawaz El Khoury & Walid Khalife?
http://tinyurl.com/4accountability
You say you are unaware of any trustees with criminal records and that you are not to blame for any bad apples. How is it that two of the trustees whom you sent as representatives of our Archdiocese to the Holy Synod Meeting in Damascus have criminal records? How is it that one of these trustees, who has a history of charity fraud, is the registered agent of the Balamand Education Foundation?
Sayedna, are you asking us to believe that you knew nothing about the criminal pasts of Fawaz El Khoury & Walid Khalife?
http://tinyurl.com/4accountability
Three proposed resolutions:
RESOLVED, that Metropolitan PHILIP and Bishop ANTOUN are removed from their episcopal offices in the Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America (AOCANA), and shall have no further authority, spiritual or temporal, in the AOCANA, and are to vacate AOCANA property immediately. The AOCANA is placed under the temporary care of Bishop BASIL of Wichita.
RESOLVED, that Bishops BASIL, JOSEPH, MARK, ALEXANDER and THOMAS, along with five priests, five deacons, and sixteen laymen elected by this General Convention shall constitute the OCA Negotiating Team, and shall begin immediate negotiations with Metropolitan JONAH and the Local Synod of the Orthodox Church in America (OCA), the goal being the reception of the AOCANA into the Orthodox Church in America (OCA). AOCANA union with the OCA shall take place not later than December, 2009, final terms subject to the approval of a special convention of the AOCANA which will meet in November, 2009, the place and time to be determined by the OCA Negotiating Team.
RESOLVED, that the Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America shall immediately cut all ties, spiritual and temporal, with Bishop DEMETRI of Mexico, and shall not supply him with any funds whatsoever.
RESOLVED, that Metropolitan PHILIP and Bishop ANTOUN are removed from their episcopal offices in the Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America (AOCANA), and shall have no further authority, spiritual or temporal, in the AOCANA, and are to vacate AOCANA property immediately. The AOCANA is placed under the temporary care of Bishop BASIL of Wichita.
RESOLVED, that Bishops BASIL, JOSEPH, MARK, ALEXANDER and THOMAS, along with five priests, five deacons, and sixteen laymen elected by this General Convention shall constitute the OCA Negotiating Team, and shall begin immediate negotiations with Metropolitan JONAH and the Local Synod of the Orthodox Church in America (OCA), the goal being the reception of the AOCANA into the Orthodox Church in America (OCA). AOCANA union with the OCA shall take place not later than December, 2009, final terms subject to the approval of a special convention of the AOCANA which will meet in November, 2009, the place and time to be determined by the OCA Negotiating Team.
RESOLVED, that the Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America shall immediately cut all ties, spiritual and temporal, with Bishop DEMETRI of Mexico, and shall not supply him with any funds whatsoever.
#14
Saint Ignatius
on
2009-07-24 10:20
First of all, Mark, you should know that if you are not at the convention, there is someone there saying he is Mark Stokoe.
Secondly, St. Ignatius you slip(agenda) is showing. All this talk by those denigrating our archdiocese by those in the OCA is not making the OCA very inviting. There are many priests in our archdiocese who have gotten tired over the years of hearing from their brother priests comments like,"When are you going to join the real Orthodox Church (OCA) and resent the implication. I never commented while the OCA was going through all their problems because I did not know enough to do so and do not always believe all the things which appear on the Internet. What upsets me most is how many people are making judgments about motivations of all sides in this problem. My husband is there in Palm Springs and while he validates that these booklets were handed out, he says he has seen none of which has been reported here, nor has he heard anything about people being intimidated. In fact, he said he has heard Metropolitan Philip say both privately and publically that this is an open convention and people can ask whatever they want.
(editor's note: Thanks, Kh. Cheryl for the update. I have never left Dayton, so I guess you have an imposter in Palm Desert. How one interprets that fact depends on whether one understands it more like "Spartacus" ( "I am Mark Stokoe; No, I am Mark Stokoe") or the figure of Emmanual Goldstein in "1984"...
As for the intimidation - the photos of it exist, there are scores of witnesses, and there is the matter of several hundred of the reports being confiscated in boxes by "Convention" security. At least one priest will testify it was removed from his hands ... So, I guess one not seeing eveything is to be expected at a large venue - although not seeing it does not mean it is not happening. As for the Metropolitan's statements about this being an open convention - I reprinted those yesterday in the convention blog; along with what was happening on the floor as he said them. Isn't technology wonderful?
Finally, as for not believing OCANEWS.org about the OCA scandal because you don't believe everything you read on the internet, show me one, just one example of something I published under my name in an OCANews.org article that was not later proved to be fully accurate and true. I suggest you read the SIC report, the OCA Treasurer's Report again to confirm that claim. I am not responsible for the opinions and comments of others - such as yours - posted on the comments section - but do not claim my reportage is inaccurate or untrue. If you do - prove it. I have, again and again and again. I hold you to no greater - or lesser standard.)
Secondly, St. Ignatius you slip(agenda) is showing. All this talk by those denigrating our archdiocese by those in the OCA is not making the OCA very inviting. There are many priests in our archdiocese who have gotten tired over the years of hearing from their brother priests comments like,"When are you going to join the real Orthodox Church (OCA) and resent the implication. I never commented while the OCA was going through all their problems because I did not know enough to do so and do not always believe all the things which appear on the Internet. What upsets me most is how many people are making judgments about motivations of all sides in this problem. My husband is there in Palm Springs and while he validates that these booklets were handed out, he says he has seen none of which has been reported here, nor has he heard anything about people being intimidated. In fact, he said he has heard Metropolitan Philip say both privately and publically that this is an open convention and people can ask whatever they want.
(editor's note: Thanks, Kh. Cheryl for the update. I have never left Dayton, so I guess you have an imposter in Palm Desert. How one interprets that fact depends on whether one understands it more like "Spartacus" ( "I am Mark Stokoe; No, I am Mark Stokoe") or the figure of Emmanual Goldstein in "1984"...
As for the intimidation - the photos of it exist, there are scores of witnesses, and there is the matter of several hundred of the reports being confiscated in boxes by "Convention" security. At least one priest will testify it was removed from his hands ... So, I guess one not seeing eveything is to be expected at a large venue - although not seeing it does not mean it is not happening. As for the Metropolitan's statements about this being an open convention - I reprinted those yesterday in the convention blog; along with what was happening on the floor as he said them. Isn't technology wonderful?
Finally, as for not believing OCANEWS.org about the OCA scandal because you don't believe everything you read on the internet, show me one, just one example of something I published under my name in an OCANews.org article that was not later proved to be fully accurate and true. I suggest you read the SIC report, the OCA Treasurer's Report again to confirm that claim. I am not responsible for the opinions and comments of others - such as yours - posted on the comments section - but do not claim my reportage is inaccurate or untrue. If you do - prove it. I have, again and again and again. I hold you to no greater - or lesser standard.)
#14.1
Kh. Cheryl Morris
on
2009-07-24 11:26
What does it mean in the Wed Finance comm. that the BUDGET would not be passed until OCT. ?? Since when does a Board meeting PASS on a budget rather than the assembled Conv.? More procrastinating by Met. P and his real 4 man Finance Comm. Messrs Laham, Dacales, Nassor & Bp Antoun). Talk about keeping all under control. Read Fr Touma's article AGAIN. Wonder what he'd say about P.Desert? I know!
#14.1.1
Anonymous
on
2009-07-24 14:05
If it's an open convention, and people can ask anything they want, why are they shutting off the microphones on the floor, as reported by The Ochlophobist on his blog? That does not sound like an open convention to me.
I am not aware of anybody denigrating the Archdiocese, but I am aware of many who have tough and honest questions about the behavior of many in authority within the Archdiocese, and I am also aware of the clumsy and, frankly, stupid attempts to quash debate. Here's a bit of free advice based on our troubles in the OCA: the Authorities can not maintain stonewalling and intimidation forever. The more they try, the bigger the backlash they provoke. Might as well give it up, before it blows up. God is not mocked.
I am not aware of anybody denigrating the Archdiocese, but I am aware of many who have tough and honest questions about the behavior of many in authority within the Archdiocese, and I am also aware of the clumsy and, frankly, stupid attempts to quash debate. Here's a bit of free advice based on our troubles in the OCA: the Authorities can not maintain stonewalling and intimidation forever. The more they try, the bigger the backlash they provoke. Might as well give it up, before it blows up. God is not mocked.
#14.1.2
Scott Walker
on
2009-07-24 15:11
Cheryl Morris... refuses to see the facts...she must be afraid that Met.Phillip will not support her husband's forthcoming book.
This is all starting to look like the OCA was years ago..the only difference is that there wasn't the blind scary adulation for +Herman that there is for Met.Herman..its like a cult or Iran or North Korea.
This is all starting to look like the OCA was years ago..the only difference is that there wasn't the blind scary adulation for +Herman that there is for Met.Herman..its like a cult or Iran or North Korea.
#14.1.3
Stephen
on
2009-07-25 18:16
I am reminded of the quote - "Those who have ears but do not hear, eyes but do not see" (Luke 8:9)
Recently our local community a school administrator was arrested for molesting a young girl for 6 years - an upstanding man in one of the local Baptist churches. The evangelical parents who were part of this school could not believe that "such a good person" would do such a thing, and the girl "must be deluded". They did everything they could to support this man, including a huge payout to his family. The evidence was overwhelming, he pled guilty and was sentenced. But they couldn't see that this was possible - they drank the Kool-Aid.
Khouria, stop drinking the Kool-Aid. It's clouding reasonable perspective. As has been mentioned already, just because you or your husband hasn't seen or experienced it does not mean it didn't happen.
Recently our local community a school administrator was arrested for molesting a young girl for 6 years - an upstanding man in one of the local Baptist churches. The evangelical parents who were part of this school could not believe that "such a good person" would do such a thing, and the girl "must be deluded". They did everything they could to support this man, including a huge payout to his family. The evidence was overwhelming, he pled guilty and was sentenced. But they couldn't see that this was possible - they drank the Kool-Aid.
Khouria, stop drinking the Kool-Aid. It's clouding reasonable perspective. As has been mentioned already, just because you or your husband hasn't seen or experienced it does not mean it didn't happen.
#14.1.4
Just a mom
on
2009-07-25 21:39
Looks like liveblogging is being updated by-the-minute at
http://ochlophobist.blogspot.com/
http://ochlophobist.blogspot.com/
#15
llc
on
2009-07-24 13:42
If an audit is as expensive as some claim, I am sure there are people who are willing to pay for it. As a matter of fact, if one wants to start raising money to conduct an outside audit, donations would flood in.
#16
anon
on
2009-07-24 15:39
Comparing the cost of doing an audit is like the teachers slogan which say, "If you think education is expensive, how much does ignorance cost?"
Cost/benefit analysis and recent history of the "Archdiocese, if indeed it is one," suggests that an audit might well pay for itself in transparency. The material in the WORD magaizne which exists in whatever space is left over after the hagiographic material extolling Metro Philip indicates that many Muslims benefit from the money we send to the Archdiocese. I have concerns about that and the article by Metro Philip's brother which looked at Islamic domination of the middle East with rose colored lens to say the least. If the Archdiocese has time share in Florida, I would like to put in a bid for the third week of February. I will pay for it with money which I was until a couple of months ago giving to the order of St. Ignatius.
Cost/benefit analysis and recent history of the "Archdiocese, if indeed it is one," suggests that an audit might well pay for itself in transparency. The material in the WORD magaizne which exists in whatever space is left over after the hagiographic material extolling Metro Philip indicates that many Muslims benefit from the money we send to the Archdiocese. I have concerns about that and the article by Metro Philip's brother which looked at Islamic domination of the middle East with rose colored lens to say the least. If the Archdiocese has time share in Florida, I would like to put in a bid for the third week of February. I will pay for it with money which I was until a couple of months ago giving to the order of St. Ignatius.
#16.1
max
on
2009-07-25 11:30
I just had a funny thought. Everyone should start leaving post it notes, hand-written pieces of paper, or other signs all over the convention with the message: "Stookey Was Here!" Similar to the "Kilroy Was Here" messages that US servicemen left during WWII and the Korean War. Since this a war for the heart and soul of the Antiochian Church in America this might be fitting. It would also counteract the outrageous manner in which dissenting voices and individuals are being treated.
That's a fun idea! It would let the establishment know that the audit-supporters are pretty numerous and that we aren't going to disappear. "Stookeys" are everywhere, and none will be sending money to Englewood until good order is restored in the Archdiocese.
#17.1
Cordelia Stookey
on
2009-07-24 18:54
Strange no followupon DAY 2 of the Conv.? Other websites in much detail. Was Mark Stookie rubbed out. One stated Met. Jonah asked to silence him. Please explain as we are so beholden to OCANews in that we have no avenue of information or dissent.
(Editor's note: Glad you found the other websites. Stookey is back in business, though..)
(Editor's note: Glad you found the other websites. Stookey is back in business, though..)
#17.2
Anonymous
on
2009-07-25 07:40
Mark,
Could you give an estimate of how many hits your posts about the AOC convention/scandal are getting? Have the numbers gone up during the convention? I'd like to think that the word is spreading. Thank you for your courage in doing this.
MJ
(Editor's note: Last nite the convention blog itself had 6,000; the webiste almost 30,000 readers. )
Could you give an estimate of how many hits your posts about the AOC convention/scandal are getting? Have the numbers gone up during the convention? I'd like to think that the word is spreading. Thank you for your courage in doing this.
MJ
(Editor's note: Last nite the convention blog itself had 6,000; the webiste almost 30,000 readers. )
#18
MJ
on
2009-07-24 17:54
Among the many contradictions clearly being made by Metropolitan Philip, simple math from the financial report distributed at the convention, confirms that Bp. Demetri is still being paid directly from the archdiocese a "retirement" stipend of $25K per year. This is in addition to him being paid as an active hierarch of the archdiocese of Mexico.
Not bad for a convicted felon!
Not bad for a convicted felon!
#19
Disgusted Antiochian Priest
on
2009-07-25 08:31
For many years after my conversion I was a member of the Antiochian Archdiocese. Circumstance led me to now attend a Melkite church. After listening to yesterday's convention coverage from Ancient Faith Radio I am so deeply saddened and ashamed that words cannot fully express it. All the respect I had for Metropolitan PHILIP crashed as I heard him attempt to justify paying for Bishop DEMETRI (whom I have met several times and actually like as a person) and speak with such rudeness to the lady who simply wanted to stop the Archdiocese from contributing to his finances. If this really i the work of the Patriarchate, I believe everyone who disagrees with it should directly write the Patriarch and express humbly and respectfully disappointment and disagreement with this decision. What was a wound in the body of the Antiochian Archdiocese has now burst into an open sore. Please God have mercy on us all!
#20
Anonymous
on
2009-07-25 10:30
Everyone MUST listen to this AFR podcast covering the Finances of the Antiochian archdioeces discussions at the General Assembly:
http://audio.ancientfaith.com/specials/antioch2009/finance_2009-07-24.mp3
One wonders why are they so afraid of an AUDIT is there's nothing to hide and such amazing accomplishments are being done every year. It is somewhat troubling to hear how Met. Philip and others dance around the issue, seem to purposely muddy the waters, and wax poetic about the "glorious past", while others proceed to openly attack the messengers or questioners (directly and indirectly) who are asking for truth, accountability, and verification. This is after all the Church's (GOD's) money and assets! What is wrong with making sure the stewards of it are properly and ethically administering it?
Please, listen to this audio recording and judge for yourself if those of us who are skeptical are justified for being cautious and concerned. These are the same tactics and arguments +Herman and his cronies used in trying to prevent a full audit of the OCA finances. And we all know what that audit revealed.
http://audio.ancientfaith.com/specials/antioch2009/finance_2009-07-24.mp3
One wonders why are they so afraid of an AUDIT is there's nothing to hide and such amazing accomplishments are being done every year. It is somewhat troubling to hear how Met. Philip and others dance around the issue, seem to purposely muddy the waters, and wax poetic about the "glorious past", while others proceed to openly attack the messengers or questioners (directly and indirectly) who are asking for truth, accountability, and verification. This is after all the Church's (GOD's) money and assets! What is wrong with making sure the stewards of it are properly and ethically administering it?
Please, listen to this audio recording and judge for yourself if those of us who are skeptical are justified for being cautious and concerned. These are the same tactics and arguments +Herman and his cronies used in trying to prevent a full audit of the OCA finances. And we all know what that audit revealed.
Hello Chris,
Your comment and question sounds very reasonable to me:
"One wonders why are they so afraid of an AUDIT is there's nothing to hide and such amazing accomplishments are being done every year."
Patty Schellbach
Your comment and question sounds very reasonable to me:
"One wonders why are they so afraid of an AUDIT is there's nothing to hide and such amazing accomplishments are being done every year."
Patty Schellbach
#22
Patty Schellbach
on
2009-07-25 19:59
Change is coming, it is the dawn of a new era.
It is nothing new under the sun for the Status Quo to be afraid and resist change. This is a power struggle for those clinging to it. But it is a futile effort as this is a change for the better, towards transparency, accountability, humility and truth - fruits of the Holy Spirit. May those who have labored in times past be rewarded for their work and be forgiven their shortcomings.
It is now up to us to do our part. May we find the courage and the vision to do what is right. May we too be forgiven, and if we accomplish any good, may we find our reward in the welfare of the generation preceding us
With God everything is possible.
It is nothing new under the sun for the Status Quo to be afraid and resist change. This is a power struggle for those clinging to it. But it is a futile effort as this is a change for the better, towards transparency, accountability, humility and truth - fruits of the Holy Spirit. May those who have labored in times past be rewarded for their work and be forgiven their shortcomings.
It is now up to us to do our part. May we find the courage and the vision to do what is right. May we too be forgiven, and if we accomplish any good, may we find our reward in the welfare of the generation preceding us
With God everything is possible.
I am waiting for a blue ribbon panel to be announced by Metropolitan Philip that will head up the much anticipated financial audit of his ( ) Protected Archdiocese.
No doubt Walid Khalife, his esteemed brother and Fawaz El Khoury will once again be called upon to aid His Grace in this important task.
I anticipate we will get timely reports at the next five National Conventions as to how they are progressing while being assured of complete transparency and the listing of accomplishments under his pontificate..uh leadership.
Of course intermittent spontaneous outbursts of many years to the self admitted Scourge of Canines may drag out this glorious litany but isn't that what Antiochian National Conventions are for?
No doubt Walid Khalife, his esteemed brother and Fawaz El Khoury will once again be called upon to aid His Grace in this important task.
I anticipate we will get timely reports at the next five National Conventions as to how they are progressing while being assured of complete transparency and the listing of accomplishments under his pontificate..uh leadership.
Of course intermittent spontaneous outbursts of many years to the self admitted Scourge of Canines may drag out this glorious litany but isn't that what Antiochian National Conventions are for?
#24
Kevin Kirwan
on
2009-07-27 07:34
The large number of anonymous sources that are being cited as "accurate" reports is a disturbing fact, in my opinion. Did not St. Paul caution us about conducting ourselves as busybodies and disturbers of good order. I would find your reporting more edifying if it were not so intemperate and lacking in a spirit of charity.
#25
Ron Benner
on
2009-07-28 11:32
The comment made by Ron Benner sums it up for many I believe.
The news is in and of itself capable of accomplishing your stated goals but the heavy spin and tendency toward drama is counterproductive.
Missy from Benson, AZ
The news is in and of itself capable of accomplishing your stated goals but the heavy spin and tendency toward drama is counterproductive.
Missy from Benson, AZ
#26
Missy Rayia
on
2009-07-29 16:30
The author does not allow comments to this entry
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