Friday, August 21. 2009
Plea for an Audit; Financial Allegations
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Are we still dealing with the Detroit of auto makers of the 1950's?
Threats of violence, intimidation and now excommunication for simply wanting to research the finances as a respectable and thorough Treasurer would be expected to do.
Instead of thanking God for a dedicated Treasurer to help pull the parish out of a financial crisis, the man is humilated in front ogf the people during the most solemn time of the Divine Liturgy.
How can MP defend a priest who obviously signed checks along with the signature of a woman who has been dead for two years? He should be deposed immediately!!!!!
MP should order a complete audit of the parish records by a big four company to find the $5.85 million, the $1 million and the other income from the Banquet Hall.
What is next writing off church expenses against the parish Banquet Hall to reduce taxes? Secretarial expenses as well?
Does the Parish Council realize their names are on these TAX RETURNS?
Who would the IRS go after?
Would the Church lose its TAX EXEMPT STATUS?
Perhaps the one's fighting the investigation have MUCH TO HIDE?
Did I hear someone say the SIX MILLION DOLLAR MAN?
Threats of violence, intimidation and now excommunication for simply wanting to research the finances as a respectable and thorough Treasurer would be expected to do.
Instead of thanking God for a dedicated Treasurer to help pull the parish out of a financial crisis, the man is humilated in front ogf the people during the most solemn time of the Divine Liturgy.
How can MP defend a priest who obviously signed checks along with the signature of a woman who has been dead for two years? He should be deposed immediately!!!!!
MP should order a complete audit of the parish records by a big four company to find the $5.85 million, the $1 million and the other income from the Banquet Hall.
What is next writing off church expenses against the parish Banquet Hall to reduce taxes? Secretarial expenses as well?
Does the Parish Council realize their names are on these TAX RETURNS?
Who would the IRS go after?
Would the Church lose its TAX EXEMPT STATUS?
Perhaps the one's fighting the investigation have MUCH TO HIDE?
Did I hear someone say the SIX MILLION DOLLAR MAN?
#1
anonymous
on
2009-08-21 18:38
Norgrove maintains Joe Antipiss the best priest St George has ever had.
They have had many excellent assistants.
As far as I know none of the ever buried a woman then signed her name to checks.
The questions begs to be asked when did this practice begin.
Before she was dead or after?
What will it cost to clear his name, if it is indeed possible because of this stupidity?
Should the parish bear the cost of a Big Four Audit because of his stupidity? No
But, the audit must be done to see what the checks were written for; how long has this been going on; and if there was malfeasience.
They have had many excellent assistants.
As far as I know none of the ever buried a woman then signed her name to checks.
The questions begs to be asked when did this practice begin.
Before she was dead or after?
What will it cost to clear his name, if it is indeed possible because of this stupidity?
Should the parish bear the cost of a Big Four Audit because of his stupidity? No
But, the audit must be done to see what the checks were written for; how long has this been going on; and if there was malfeasience.
#1.1
Anonymous
on
2009-08-22 16:51
Here once again is another abuse of the authority of the priesthood:
There is nothing in the Parish Constitution that provides for removal of a parish council member.
*One of the few instances was of a man who had a felony conviction in his past and was causing problems. The priest contacted the Archdiocese and the following was prescribed*:
The parish council was to vote on it and their decision was sent to MP for his approval.
The Constitution does not give the priest the authority to remove council members unilaterally.
The Constitution does not even give the parish council that authority.
There is a provision however, for the council to request the removal of their priest.
There is nothing in the Parish Constitution that provides for removal of a parish council member.
*One of the few instances was of a man who had a felony conviction in his past and was causing problems. The priest contacted the Archdiocese and the following was prescribed*:
The parish council was to vote on it and their decision was sent to MP for his approval.
The Constitution does not give the priest the authority to remove council members unilaterally.
The Constitution does not even give the parish council that authority.
There is a provision however, for the council to request the removal of their priest.
#1.2
abed-antipass abed-philip
on
2009-08-26 03:50
Are we still dealing with the Detroit of auto makers of the 1950's?
Threats of violence, intimidation and now excommunication for simply wanting to research the finances as a respectable and thorough Treasurer would be expected to do.
Instead of thanking God for a dedicated Treasurer to help pull the parish out of a financial crisis, the man is humilated in front ogf the people during the most solemn time of the Divine Liturgy.
How can MP defend a priest who obviously signed checks along with the signature of a woman who has been dead for two years? He should be deposed immediately!!!!!
MP should order a complete audit of the parish records by a big four company to find the $5.85 million, the $1 million and the other income from the Banquet Hall.
What is next writing off church expenses against the parish Banquet Hall to reduce taxes? Secretarial expenses as well?
Does the Parish Council realize their names are on these TAX RETURNS?
Who would the IRS go after?
Would the Church lose its TAX EXEMPT STATUS?
Perhaps the one fighting the investigation has MUCH TO HIDE?
Did I hear someone say the SIX MILLION DOLLAR MAN? or wait a minute maybe it is in excess of $7 million before inflation?
Threats of violence, intimidation and now excommunication for simply wanting to research the finances as a respectable and thorough Treasurer would be expected to do.
Instead of thanking God for a dedicated Treasurer to help pull the parish out of a financial crisis, the man is humilated in front ogf the people during the most solemn time of the Divine Liturgy.
How can MP defend a priest who obviously signed checks along with the signature of a woman who has been dead for two years? He should be deposed immediately!!!!!
MP should order a complete audit of the parish records by a big four company to find the $5.85 million, the $1 million and the other income from the Banquet Hall.
What is next writing off church expenses against the parish Banquet Hall to reduce taxes? Secretarial expenses as well?
Does the Parish Council realize their names are on these TAX RETURNS?
Who would the IRS go after?
Would the Church lose its TAX EXEMPT STATUS?
Perhaps the one fighting the investigation has MUCH TO HIDE?
Did I hear someone say the SIX MILLION DOLLAR MAN? or wait a minute maybe it is in excess of $7 million before inflation?
#2
anonymous
on
2009-08-21 18:40
Asking MP to do anything is futile because, as the fish starts to rot from the head, I believe +Philip is the cause of this mess. No more money to Englewood until he goes away (deposed, retired or reassigned to someplace far away)!
#2.1
Carl
on
2009-08-22 07:33
Birds of a feather ---
What do Fr. Joe Antypas, Walid Khalife and Metropolitan Philip all have in common?
They all hate audits and/or threaten and / or punish those who ask!
Hopefully the good people of Troy will show up in full force at the Parish Council meeting to demand an explanation from Fr. Joe Antypas.
If you read carefully, three people could sign checks: the priest, the chairman of the council and the treasurer.
Now if the chairman was not a signor at the time and the treasurer is blowing the whistle, then
that leaves the priest (joe antypas) with the departed treasurer signing checks.
How long has this been going on?
I heard she was 92 when she passed away two years ago.
Would a woman 92 years old have been the active treasurer for one of the largest parishes in the AOCA?
..............
What do Fr. Joe Antypas, Walid Khalife and Metropolitan Philip all have in common?
They all hate audits and/or threaten and / or punish those who ask!
Hopefully the good people of Troy will show up in full force at the Parish Council meeting to demand an explanation from Fr. Joe Antypas.
If you read carefully, three people could sign checks: the priest, the chairman of the council and the treasurer.
Now if the chairman was not a signor at the time and the treasurer is blowing the whistle, then
that leaves the priest (joe antypas) with the departed treasurer signing checks.
How long has this been going on?
I heard she was 92 when she passed away two years ago.
Would a woman 92 years old have been the active treasurer for one of the largest parishes in the AOCA?
..............
#3
anonymous
on
2009-08-21 18:58
Factsdo not cease to exist because they are ignored!
#3.1
Aballa-Philip abdall-antipiss
on
2009-08-25 12:54
May St. Michael the Archangel watch over and protect George Samra and the man who now has responsibility for this mess, Bishop Mark. An armed guard or two might not be a bad idea, either--again. The tight connection between the leadership of this parish and Englewood is disturbing but all too predictable, now.
How long, O Lord, how long?
How long, O Lord, how long?
#4
James P.
on
2009-08-21 19:09
"we have no felons on the Board", says Met. Philip. How blind can people be? More Kool-Aid for the most gullible group of loyalists we have ever seen! Open the Books and Why? The Archdiocese doesn't! Why create a double standard! Over and over we hear, "WHAT IS THERE TO HIDE?" We bet plenty.
#4.1
Anonymous
on
2009-08-22 10:23
Actually, it was Flavor Aid. Please, let's not continue to destroy the Kool-Aid brand. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonestown
#4.1.1
Anonymous
on
2009-08-24 07:45
I hope that anyone who reads this who lives in the Detroit area will contact the investigative reporters at the local newspapers and TV stations to see if they would be interested in looking into this mess, especially with regard to the low-income housing project the parish owns. I hope that anyone who reads this who lives in Oakland County, Michigan, will contact the local district attorney's office to see what can be done about this mess. Anyone who lives in Michigan outside of Oakland County should contact the state attorney general's office to see what can be done in this matter.
Sic semper tyrannis,
Nemo
Sic semper tyrannis,
Nemo
#5
Nemo
on
2009-08-21 21:22
Nemo, I totally agree! The only way to put the breaks on the madness that is corrupting our Orthodox Church, is to sound the horns and blow the whistles in a VERY public fashion. It's sad, we have to go to secular venues to deal with our Church, but I see no other viable option at this point. Very much like the Roman Church with the abuse scandal, the corruption runs too deep to be dealt with in any other fashion other than mainstream media and secular investigations.
I hope and pray people in the Church have the courage to speak out. We've swept our filth under the rug for too many centuries now, it's time to CLEAN the house, not just hide the dirt. That might sound "un-Christian" to some people, but as others have said, souls and lives are at stake here.
I hope and pray people in the Church have the courage to speak out. We've swept our filth under the rug for too many centuries now, it's time to CLEAN the house, not just hide the dirt. That might sound "un-Christian" to some people, but as others have said, souls and lives are at stake here.
#5.1
Chuck Shingledecker
on
2009-08-22 08:20
I seem to remember a certain promise being made to those who were persecuted for righteousness' sake, and also to those who were reviled and falsely accused...
The trend within the AOCA seems to be a healthy one, because even though it's messy, it's airing out a lot of things that have festered in secrecy. Free speech and exchange of ideas like this site helps to foster will, I think, continue to expose things to the light of day as they should be. Why should the Church leadership be so critical of such an endeavor? Men only love darkness when their deeds are evil.
The trend within the AOCA seems to be a healthy one, because even though it's messy, it's airing out a lot of things that have festered in secrecy. Free speech and exchange of ideas like this site helps to foster will, I think, continue to expose things to the light of day as they should be. Why should the Church leadership be so critical of such an endeavor? Men only love darkness when their deeds are evil.
#6
Isaac Crabtree
on
2009-08-21 22:37
St George Tower Ltd is a 501(c)3 charitable organization, with Walid Khalife as its chairman and Fr Antypas as its president, each of whom draw no salary from the organization (according to its 2007 Form 990). HUD recipients are required to have what is known as a Yellow Book audit, i.e. in accordance with government auditing standards.
#7
Michael Strelka
on
2009-08-22 04:59
While St George Towers may have audit reports.
Is it not interesting the people of St George, the Parish Council who serve as it's Board of Directors have not seen them?
....
The parish council / board of directors should see the checkbook on an ongoing basis and know who is reimbursed or receives a check from St George Towers. Are the priests wives on the payroll?
Do any of them receive checks for anything related to St George Towers on an ongoing basis?
Additionally, was the audit done by a company with no family connections to the Antypas / Nasr / Kfouf families? Or of the families who manage the Towers?
George Samra as the Treasurer for St George must be allowed as the Treasurer to reveiw the check register.
If there is nothing to hide this should have never even been an issue!
This should be the normative process.
Fr Joseph by his actions only raised suspicions!
Hopefully, there will not be any further revelations or actions waranting those suspicions.
Is it not interesting the people of St George, the Parish Council who serve as it's Board of Directors have not seen them?
....
The parish council / board of directors should see the checkbook on an ongoing basis and know who is reimbursed or receives a check from St George Towers. Are the priests wives on the payroll?
Do any of them receive checks for anything related to St George Towers on an ongoing basis?
Additionally, was the audit done by a company with no family connections to the Antypas / Nasr / Kfouf families? Or of the families who manage the Towers?
George Samra as the Treasurer for St George must be allowed as the Treasurer to reveiw the check register.
If there is nothing to hide this should have never even been an issue!
This should be the normative process.
Fr Joseph by his actions only raised suspicions!
Hopefully, there will not be any further revelations or actions waranting those suspicions.
#7.1
Anonymous
on
2009-08-24 13:45
Can we do a Priest foreign exchange program? We'll send Syria all our Antypases and they can send us all their Archim. Toumas.....
#8
Rdr Mo
on
2009-08-22 06:27
George Samra,
There's a welcoming front porch and a cold beer waiting for you here in Memphis.
Christ is in our midst,
Mickey
There's a welcoming front porch and a cold beer waiting for you here in Memphis.
Christ is in our midst,
Mickey
#9
Mickey Hodges
on
2009-08-22 09:02
The same Walid Khalife charged in drug trafficing,money laundering and attempt to defraud the US government?
Twelve million Dollars in deposits for one day of drugs?
The same who threatened Bishop Mark?
The same who threatened priests in the Dioseses of Wichita and Toledo?
The same Joe Antypas that went to Damascas to the Holy Synod meeting and somehow fraudulent documents surfaced?
Now he follows MP lead in punishing anyone who asks questions?
Twelve million Dollars in deposits for one day of drugs?
The same who threatened Bishop Mark?
The same who threatened priests in the Dioseses of Wichita and Toledo?
The same Joe Antypas that went to Damascas to the Holy Synod meeting and somehow fraudulent documents surfaced?
Now he follows MP lead in punishing anyone who asks questions?
#10
Anon
on
2009-08-22 09:57
If I remember correctly, (as I listened to convention proceedings) when the issue of audits was raised, the Metropolitan "listened" and suggested that audits were too expensive, and that churches might have to be audiited, too, and the Archdiocese couldn't pay for that. And then, the issue of audits was immediately dismissed. Ironically, although the call for an audit was not directed toward local churches, iit seems clear that it should have been. Except for Churches like that in Troy, MI, I would guess that most Orthodox Churches are poor and barely make ends meet, so that wouldn't be as much of an issue. However, in this case, the parishioners need to know whether or not their priest and others have cheated them....
#11
anon
on
2009-08-22 12:04
I am outraged and extremely upset as well as our whole Parish due to the coniving and ridiculous actions done by these degenerates Dave Thomas and George Samra. I am in full support of our Parish Priest, as we can attest to his integrity, honesrty, and spiritual guidance in our church. For those who know David Thomas and George samra for the last 20 years, their actions is not suprising. For years they have tried to discredit our priest because of their thoughts of americanizing our church so that we Syrian/ Lebanese immigrants would leave. Fr Joseph has been instrumental in maintaining balance in our diverse community. It is a shame that these two micreants dont appreciate the value that Fr Joseph is to our community. To falsely accuse him of wrong doing, especially when he has full Parish council and membership support is a slap in the face to our church, our Archdiocese as a whole. I hope that Fr Joseph will consider legal actions against them. However , knowing Fr Joseph he would not do that because he has such a big heart.
(Editor's note: Thanks, George, for offering another perspective. If there is nothing to hide, and the allegations are all false, why not agree to an audit and remove all doubt, and end the questions? A full, independent audit would be the quickest, easiest, and most complete way to end the turmoil. Why is that so difficult to do as Mr. Samra suggests? Indeed, it may not be necessary - but the very fact there is now turmoil would indicate it is....)
(Editor's note: Thanks, George, for offering another perspective. If there is nothing to hide, and the allegations are all false, why not agree to an audit and remove all doubt, and end the questions? A full, independent audit would be the quickest, easiest, and most complete way to end the turmoil. Why is that so difficult to do as Mr. Samra suggests? Indeed, it may not be necessary - but the very fact there is now turmoil would indicate it is....)
#12
George Haddad
on
2009-08-22 12:45
"I am outraged and extremely upset as well as our whole Parish due to the coniving and ridiculous actions done by these degenerates Dave Thomas and George Samra."
Oops---I think the comments just turned personal.
We should not do that, you know.
Oops---I think the comments just turned personal.
We should not do that, you know.
#12.1
Father Patrick Reardon
on
2009-08-22 14:02
George -- why does your parish have a "degenerate" as the treasurer? Can you please explain that?
#12.2
Anonymous
on
2009-08-23 00:33
Mark,
You do not know david thomas or george samra. there is no money problems at our church. we have never had one problem paying our mortgage or making payments as that liar states. it is completely false. for that matter, there never was a million dollars!! It is completely false!! Every check that is written from the church, a cancelled check comes back to the accountant. every dollar is accounted for. this is a ploy generated by david thomas and george samiira with the help of bishop mark who is trying to get revenge on fr. antypas. david thomas tried something like this in the past and pleaded for forgiveness. this is not about money, believe me. it is aobut separating our church into emigrant vs nonemigrant peoples and see that if they can get rid of an arab priest, most of the arab members will leave.
i will always be in fr. joseph's corner for all that he stands for. he is the best priest that we have ever had and all your comments and reports are fraudulent and without basis. seriously, he could sue for this. shame on you all.
(editor's note: Actually, Mr. Mitri, Mr. Samra seems to be fulfilling his fiduciary duty by raising questions about concerns he had as parish Treasurer. I made no comment on that - I simply reported what he did. Mr. Samra asks who authorized the mortgage on St. George's Tower. Mr. Norgrove says the Board was informed. Just ask the Board then, if they voted on it - it should be in the Minutes, if there was vote, right? And if not - well, then Mr. Samra has a point that the Bylaws seem to require a vote. One hopes there are Minutes....
Technically, though,. you are the one who might be seen libelling people by calling Samra a "liar"..... But as Orthodox Christians there is no need for courts here. There is only a need, it would seem to me, for an independent accountant to resolve the questions. Why is that so difficult a request, that brings forth such invective, is the question I think most people have on reading about this turmoil. And will continue to have until one is arranged...)
You do not know david thomas or george samra. there is no money problems at our church. we have never had one problem paying our mortgage or making payments as that liar states. it is completely false. for that matter, there never was a million dollars!! It is completely false!! Every check that is written from the church, a cancelled check comes back to the accountant. every dollar is accounted for. this is a ploy generated by david thomas and george samiira with the help of bishop mark who is trying to get revenge on fr. antypas. david thomas tried something like this in the past and pleaded for forgiveness. this is not about money, believe me. it is aobut separating our church into emigrant vs nonemigrant peoples and see that if they can get rid of an arab priest, most of the arab members will leave.
i will always be in fr. joseph's corner for all that he stands for. he is the best priest that we have ever had and all your comments and reports are fraudulent and without basis. seriously, he could sue for this. shame on you all.
(editor's note: Actually, Mr. Mitri, Mr. Samra seems to be fulfilling his fiduciary duty by raising questions about concerns he had as parish Treasurer. I made no comment on that - I simply reported what he did. Mr. Samra asks who authorized the mortgage on St. George's Tower. Mr. Norgrove says the Board was informed. Just ask the Board then, if they voted on it - it should be in the Minutes, if there was vote, right? And if not - well, then Mr. Samra has a point that the Bylaws seem to require a vote. One hopes there are Minutes....
Technically, though,. you are the one who might be seen libelling people by calling Samra a "liar"..... But as Orthodox Christians there is no need for courts here. There is only a need, it would seem to me, for an independent accountant to resolve the questions. Why is that so difficult a request, that brings forth such invective, is the question I think most people have on reading about this turmoil. And will continue to have until one is arranged...)
#13
T. Mitri (St George Troy)
on
2009-08-22 13:02
Let's look at Facts? Pg 19 of the Arch'd Financial Report:
St George (Troy,MI) 2007 Assessment given to Arch'd
$ 38,010.
2008 " " " "
$ 18,568. WHAT HAPPENED?
In '07 Met. Philip ignored the small Mid West parish hosting the Parish Life Conf. (that was honoring him), but did make the gala dinner Fr Antypas and parish for him that Fall! Did they run out of $$$ with the gold chains given out to honor the Metropolitan?
AND not to forget St. Mary (Livonia, MI) which according to same pg 19, went from
$ 35,004. down to $ 11,668. in One Year??!!
Peraps Fr Shalhoub & Antypas should ret. to the Balamond for courses in Finance? Did they ever offer them?
St George (Troy,MI) 2007 Assessment given to Arch'd
$ 38,010.
2008 " " " "
$ 18,568. WHAT HAPPENED?
In '07 Met. Philip ignored the small Mid West parish hosting the Parish Life Conf. (that was honoring him), but did make the gala dinner Fr Antypas and parish for him that Fall! Did they run out of $$$ with the gold chains given out to honor the Metropolitan?
AND not to forget St. Mary (Livonia, MI) which according to same pg 19, went from
$ 35,004. down to $ 11,668. in One Year??!!
Peraps Fr Shalhoub & Antypas should ret. to the Balamond for courses in Finance? Did they ever offer them?
#13.1
Anonymous Archdiocese Trustee
on
2009-08-22 19:56
Are the 2007 and 2008 assesment contributions to the Archiocese you cite for Troy and Livonia monthly or annual amounts? If annual, I'm astonished at how small even the 2007 amounts are, given that these are among our largest parishes. Seems like the guideline we've been given that parishes should strive to send a "tithe" of their income to the Archdiocese somehow doesn't apply to these parishes....
#13.1.1
JPS
on
2009-08-23 06:16
It is not fair to automatically assume that a drop in diocesan assessments is some form of financial impropriety when it comes to parishes in the Detroit area. In case you haven't noticed, we've taken a bit of a hit when it comes to the economy within the past year or two. It hasn't been very much fun watching the main source of our economic well-being run belly up in front of our eyes. Unemployment is sky-high, perhaps higher than any other part of the country right now. I know of several large Orthodox and non-Orthodox parishes who just a year or two ago were in extremely solid financial footing, yet today are justifiably worried about meeting their financial obligations. Often the first thing to be discussed when cutbacks need to be made are assessments to the central administration. Why? Because you'd rather be able to pay your pastor, keep a roof over your head, and keep the electricity on before you worry about sending the money to the diocese. It's sad, but it's true. Things are really quite bad here.
I'd also be interested to see if the membership numbers have dropped at the parishes in question. I'd be willing to bet they have--people are moving elsewhere in droves, and if not, many are electing not to pay their membership dues (if their parishes have such a thing) because they simply cannot afford to do so. Endowments and voluntary giving is down pretty much everywhere, too.
That is the main part of this particular "scandal" I find to be largely overlooked. Here in the Detroit area, we're all asking where the money went, because we all used to have a lot more than we do now. That, however, doesn't mean someone stole it. I'm not saying that explains this entire situation, but I think the economic realities here are a lot more to blame than some of the people itching for another way to throw another twist into the Antiochian scandal would tend to admit.
I'd also be interested to see if the membership numbers have dropped at the parishes in question. I'd be willing to bet they have--people are moving elsewhere in droves, and if not, many are electing not to pay their membership dues (if their parishes have such a thing) because they simply cannot afford to do so. Endowments and voluntary giving is down pretty much everywhere, too.
That is the main part of this particular "scandal" I find to be largely overlooked. Here in the Detroit area, we're all asking where the money went, because we all used to have a lot more than we do now. That, however, doesn't mean someone stole it. I'm not saying that explains this entire situation, but I think the economic realities here are a lot more to blame than some of the people itching for another way to throw another twist into the Antiochian scandal would tend to admit.
#13.1.2
Anonymous
on
2009-08-23 15:27
When we have money in abundance there is a tendancy to become lax, disregarding Budgets and Expenditures. We have the money.
When times are good we let our guard down and can become easy prey.
Reveiw Church Mutual's Risks. Church's are high risk because people ARE TRUSTING.
Look at who the culprits are! Often the people younwould least expect.
This is precisely why we must have good practices in place at all times.
If we do not, when someone asks questions, like George Samra, their own questions may be taken as an attack.
When times are good we let our guard down and can become easy prey.
Reveiw Church Mutual's Risks. Church's are high risk because people ARE TRUSTING.
Look at who the culprits are! Often the people younwould least expect.
This is precisely why we must have good practices in place at all times.
If we do not, when someone asks questions, like George Samra, their own questions may be taken as an attack.
#13.1.2.1
Anomymous
on
2009-08-24 14:33
The gold chains for Metropolitan PHILIP were donated by a member from the church. Just to clarify. Thanks.
#13.1.3
William
on
2009-08-24 07:43
Personally, I think gold chains look better on Isaac Hayes or Mr. T. than on an old white guy in a Catholic collar and a suit.
I hear that Pastor Brother Billy Bob down at the Blinding Light Christian Center and Drive-Inn gets Rolexes from his fans, which makes a stronger fashion statement than gold chains.
Unless you're Isaac Hayes.
Or Mr. T.
Or a robber jay, which just loves to fill its nest with shiny things, but never needs to tell time.
Think about it, Philip fans in Troy, and next time come across with a Rolex for His Unsurpassable Beatitude. Then he can have a new and shiny thing for his nest and also tell time.
I hear that Pastor Brother Billy Bob down at the Blinding Light Christian Center and Drive-Inn gets Rolexes from his fans, which makes a stronger fashion statement than gold chains.
Unless you're Isaac Hayes.
Or Mr. T.
Or a robber jay, which just loves to fill its nest with shiny things, but never needs to tell time.
Think about it, Philip fans in Troy, and next time come across with a Rolex for His Unsurpassable Beatitude. Then he can have a new and shiny thing for his nest and also tell time.
#13.1.3.1
Scott Walker
on
2009-08-24 22:51
A minor note: St. George in Troy, MI, is not a cathedral.
(Editor's note: Thank you for the correction. My error.)
(Editor's note: Thank you for the correction. My error.)
#14
A Reader
on
2009-08-22 14:12
I am a member of St. George and have been for the past 20 years. I just wanted to give my opinion on everything that has been happening in Troy. Fr. Antypas is nothing but a blessing to our entire parish. I am not saying that either. Every and any time my family ever needed him, he was there. He bent over backwards for almost all of his flock in the church. I also know Mr. Samra and Mr. Thomas very well. .... What are they trying to prove? In the end, they are going to just make fools out of themselves and i truly hope that legal actions will be taken against them, but like someone said before, Fr. Antypas is too good of a man to hurt people like that. Unfortunately, people are trying to hurt him and it will not work. God be with you all and please pray for Mr. Samra and Mr Thomas, in the hopes that they regain their sanity and Christian-like behavior soon-because right now, they are lacking both.
#15
St. George Parishionner
on
2009-08-22 15:08
I just don't get it. How can two fellow Orthodox Christians, apparently trusted enough to have been elected Treasurer of their Church Council, all of a sudden lose their sanity and exhibit un-Christian behavior--just because they are trying to do their job? One answe may be that there are some people in this Archdiocese who have drunk the kool-aid of worshipping their glorious leaders instead of God. I wonder how long will this cultic behavior will be tolerated by Antioch?
#15.1
Carl
on
2009-08-22 16:10
If all one had to do was ask to get answers, why has George Samra and David Thomas been so MERCILESSLY been DISCIPLINED by the one who should have guided them in the process.
Obviously, the case is not about simply asking, but NOT ASKING.
Norgrove maintains all is well. Our we to simply take his word?
Additionally, as St George Towers is Church property a Vote of the General Assembly would be required for a mortgage over $100,000.00 per archdiocesan policy as well (see archdiosecan constitution).
....
Obviously, the case is not about simply asking, but NOT ASKING.
Norgrove maintains all is well. Our we to simply take his word?
Additionally, as St George Towers is Church property a Vote of the General Assembly would be required for a mortgage over $100,000.00 per archdiocesan policy as well (see archdiosecan constitution).
....
#16
Anon
on
2009-08-22 16:41
It continues to fascinate me that the clergy of our Church is more concerned with secrecy and power than leading by example in the way of repentance.
The waters in which we were all baptized and the oil with which we were all chrismated is no guarantee of holiness or righteousness. We - I - have to struggle each and every day to live up to that calling.
The monks on Athos have a saying - the dead are not allowed to repent.
Matthew 23:1-15 Then spake Jesus to the multitudes and to his disciples, saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses seat: all things therefore whatsoever they bid you, [these] do and observe: but do not ye after their works; for they say, and do not. Yea, they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men`s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with their finger. But all their works they do to be seen of men: for they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders [of their garments], and love the chief place at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues, and the salutations in the marketplaces, and to be called of men, Rabbi. But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your teacher, and all ye are brethren. And call no man your father on the earth: for one is your Father, [even] he who is in heaven. Neither be ye called masters: for one is your master, [even] the Christ. But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be humbled; and whosoever shall humble himself shall be exalted. But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye shut the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye enter not in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering in to enter[.] Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows` houses, even while for a pretence ye make long prayers: therefore ye shall receive greater condemnation. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he is become so, ye make him twofold more a son of hell than yourselves.
Humility and repentance seem to be missing of late. Anyone seen repentance and humility? Those are the clergy and bishops to whom we owe our gratitude and our obedience.
Dn. Marty
Martin D. Watt, CPA
Dayton, Ohio
(OCA - former AEOM Antiochian)
The waters in which we were all baptized and the oil with which we were all chrismated is no guarantee of holiness or righteousness. We - I - have to struggle each and every day to live up to that calling.
The monks on Athos have a saying - the dead are not allowed to repent.
Matthew 23:1-15 Then spake Jesus to the multitudes and to his disciples, saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses seat: all things therefore whatsoever they bid you, [these] do and observe: but do not ye after their works; for they say, and do not. Yea, they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men`s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with their finger. But all their works they do to be seen of men: for they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders [of their garments], and love the chief place at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues, and the salutations in the marketplaces, and to be called of men, Rabbi. But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your teacher, and all ye are brethren. And call no man your father on the earth: for one is your Father, [even] he who is in heaven. Neither be ye called masters: for one is your master, [even] the Christ. But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be humbled; and whosoever shall humble himself shall be exalted. But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye shut the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye enter not in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering in to enter[.] Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows` houses, even while for a pretence ye make long prayers: therefore ye shall receive greater condemnation. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he is become so, ye make him twofold more a son of hell than yourselves.
Humility and repentance seem to be missing of late. Anyone seen repentance and humility? Those are the clergy and bishops to whom we owe our gratitude and our obedience.
Dn. Marty
Martin D. Watt, CPA
Dayton, Ohio
(OCA - former AEOM Antiochian)
#17
Dn. Marty Watt
on
2009-08-22 16:47
Why is a man who threatens to shoot people dead serving any parish anywhere in a position of responsibility? If I were that priest and he were my closest friend in the world, I would still dismiss him on the spot.
What is the purpose of the parish owning such a substantial piece of real estate? Who benefits, and how? Do the residents live there for free? Does the church use the income to fund substantial social services, such as helping the many poor and unemployed in the region? (Does anyone know for sure?)
I also have difficulty understanding any priest having substantial personal wealth. I've always felt anyone who wanted to be wealthy should seek out another vocation besides the priesthood, no matter the source of his assets. But I realize my views are not shared by most.
We spend so much time talking about money and finances. I wish we spent even a fraction of that time talking about service and how to live a spiritual life in Christ. I realize these discussions are important; they are just more than a little disheartening. I don't want to audit my church's books; I want my church to audit my spiritual accounts and help me live a clean, devout life.
(Editor's note: The issue is not Fr. Joseph's personal wealth, if such exists. Certainly neither Mr. Thomas nor Samra even raised the issue, nor is it appropriate for us. Focus, people.)
What is the purpose of the parish owning such a substantial piece of real estate? Who benefits, and how? Do the residents live there for free? Does the church use the income to fund substantial social services, such as helping the many poor and unemployed in the region? (Does anyone know for sure?)
I also have difficulty understanding any priest having substantial personal wealth. I've always felt anyone who wanted to be wealthy should seek out another vocation besides the priesthood, no matter the source of his assets. But I realize my views are not shared by most.
We spend so much time talking about money and finances. I wish we spent even a fraction of that time talking about service and how to live a spiritual life in Christ. I realize these discussions are important; they are just more than a little disheartening. I don't want to audit my church's books; I want my church to audit my spiritual accounts and help me live a clean, devout life.
(Editor's note: The issue is not Fr. Joseph's personal wealth, if such exists. Certainly neither Mr. Thomas nor Samra even raised the issue, nor is it appropriate for us. Focus, people.)
#17.1
Morton
on
2009-08-24 09:28
Sorry, I should made that parenthetical qualified it as my personal feeling. But I'm not sure it's as far off the point as you suggest. We are all called to follow Christ, and a spiritual guide is someone who can show by example how to do that. Our Lord began life with some personal wealth (i.e., gold, frankincense, and myrrh, as well as whatever He inherited from Joseph), but by the time of His public ministry, He "had not where to lay His head." All of His followers left families, homes, jobs, and businesses. If that is the example, I believe a discussion of a priest's personal relationship with money is indeed germane.
#17.1.1
Morton
on
2009-08-25 11:27
I am not aware of ever having met any parishioner or cleric from St. George, Troy, MI, and have no personal interest one way or the other in the particular dispute that has arisen.
I do hope that the situation at St. George will be taken by our hierarchs, trustees, and the clergy and the faithful of the Antiochian Archdiocese as an object lesson in the consequences of lack of financial transparency--inquiries mistaken for accusations of dishonesty, heated passions, and the like, as evidenced in the letters reported and posts responding to them here--and that the Archdiocese and indeed all parishes and Archdiocesan institutions with significant assets or income streams will seek to avoid such spiritually destructive unpleasantness by cheerfully and willingly engaging independent auditors, while poorer parishes and missions will ensure transparency by establishing a policy of allowing any member to examine their bank, mortgage, and investment records upon request.
I do hope that the situation at St. George will be taken by our hierarchs, trustees, and the clergy and the faithful of the Antiochian Archdiocese as an object lesson in the consequences of lack of financial transparency--inquiries mistaken for accusations of dishonesty, heated passions, and the like, as evidenced in the letters reported and posts responding to them here--and that the Archdiocese and indeed all parishes and Archdiocesan institutions with significant assets or income streams will seek to avoid such spiritually destructive unpleasantness by cheerfully and willingly engaging independent auditors, while poorer parishes and missions will ensure transparency by establishing a policy of allowing any member to examine their bank, mortgage, and investment records upon request.
#18
Subdeacon David [Yetter]
on
2009-08-22 17:02
Very strange. When I was a parish treasurer (and those before and after me), the books were always open to anyone in the parish who had a question. We always gave a report at our monthly parish council meetings (which were always open to any parish member) regarding expenses, income, savings and set-asides. And, we had audits by others in the parish with the ability to do so.
All of the questions and problems with money and the audits that should be part and parcel of organizational operations that have been appearing in both the OCA and AOCA and the reported discrepancies must be dealt with. In that certain parties who are in positions of responsibility are making such a big deal out of the requests for audits and investigations it would seem that they have something to hide.
Usually where there is smoke, there is fire. If these hierarchs and priests are in the right, then they should be the first ones want to prove that no malfeasance exists in the operations of the church. Open the books and take a look. Funds given by the people for church purposes can perhaps be categorized as Holy money which would place the whole situation in a different light.
Sometimes I wonder if there exists in our modern world such a thing as true 'fear of God'. Lord, have mercy.
All of the questions and problems with money and the audits that should be part and parcel of organizational operations that have been appearing in both the OCA and AOCA and the reported discrepancies must be dealt with. In that certain parties who are in positions of responsibility are making such a big deal out of the requests for audits and investigations it would seem that they have something to hide.
Usually where there is smoke, there is fire. If these hierarchs and priests are in the right, then they should be the first ones want to prove that no malfeasance exists in the operations of the church. Open the books and take a look. Funds given by the people for church purposes can perhaps be categorized as Holy money which would place the whole situation in a different light.
Sometimes I wonder if there exists in our modern world such a thing as true 'fear of God'. Lord, have mercy.
#18.1
Yanni
on
2009-08-22 20:30
Thank you for a very levelheaded comment. This indeed doable! Sadly, it is highly unlikely! The Board of Trustees will NEVER go against their leader. Just like in Jonestown they will not only continue to drink the Kool Aide they will help serve it.
Will any of them be worthy of the next administration?
Only those who have stood up to the current one! Elaine Heider and Robert Koory will be atthe top of my list!
Will any of them be worthy of the next administration?
Only those who have stood up to the current one! Elaine Heider and Robert Koory will be atthe top of my list!
#18.2
Anonymous
on
2009-08-23 05:02
David was not elected but appointed by father Antypas in order to give him a chance to participate when he pulled a stunt similar to this a few years ago. At that time he said many lies about father and after meeting with him apologized. Father felt that perhaps I'd he was given a chance to serve then maybe it could help him. So much for that idea as David proves he isn't worth it by his latest uncalled for actions.
#19
Anonymous
on
2009-08-22 17:17
fr.joe has my full support he is an honest loving man who has been a blessing to our parish. these animals have so much hate and evil in their hearts. shame on them for trying to ruin his character
(Editor's note: Animals? As I have said before, this rush to invective is amazing to me - and disturbing, no matter the questions they have raised.)
(Editor's note: Animals? As I have said before, this rush to invective is amazing to me - and disturbing, no matter the questions they have raised.)
#20
mona
on
2009-08-22 17:43
Well friends:
The editor professes to be amazed by the rush to invective by someone claiming to be named Mona from Fr. Joseph's parish. I believe the editor is amazed - but he shouldn't be.
Anyone who has studied the history of the church or been through real experiences of intra-parish friction should know what lurks just beneath the surface of the comity in churches just like other human institutions. The same raging beast, the same divider, accuser, Enemy identified by the New Testament as a raging lion who goes around looking for prey. He sets Sunni against Shia, Muslim against Christian, husband against wife, etc.
How does that Enemy work? According to the epistle of St. James the tongue is one of his chief allies - it is set on fire by Hell, and we know whose home field that is. And if the tongue was a "raging fire, a world of iniquity" in the first century what is the computer mouse in the twenty-first? A UNIVERSE of mischief, perhaps?
Skim the NT epistles. How many of those churches were wracked by bitterness, enmity, factions, strife, etc.? It is so much easier to set these fires than to manage them - or to rebuild what what gets burnt!
The Book of Proverbs says that among the six or seven things God hates are those who sow discord among brethren. Why? Because it takes root and spreads so readily and does so much damage.
Are the "anaxioses" pronounced here really more acceptable - or odious - to God than the insults hurled on the convention floor or The Antiochian site? I don't think so.
The readiness of certain kinds of people to trash one another, especially when they think they can get a big audience and achieve their ends without any accountability, is one of the sad facts of human existence. The editor might do well to make it harder for that kind of crap to get slung around here, especially anonymously, but until and unless he does please spare me the "surprise" that people abuse and take advantage of the opportunity. And if i could bring myself to even post on The Antiochian I would say the same thing there. Please, someone, do it for me.
For some time I had suspected strongly that a goodly percentage of the anonymous invective directed against His Eminence here over the last few months has been the work of the various people who have fallen foul of Met. Philip's past decisions, including some of the factiionalists who split Ben Lomond 11 years ago. I spoke yesterday with a man with extensive contacts among them who confirmed their intense interest in these goings on. He could not say who or how many were fanning the flames here under aliases. I have no doubt that lurking behind quite a bit of the more tendentious stuff here are people abusing the great liberality with which Mark grants anonymity here. Not all from the wrong side of the BL bitterness, mind you. They aren't the only folks with axes to grind against Englewood.
There are many reasons why people sow or promote discord among brethren. The sheer perversity of the human heart, the ease with which it deceives itself unintentionally and others deliberately when there is some kind of gain to be had lies behind the entirely wise policy that is the lynchpin of our judicial system: an accuser must give his name and be subject to cross-examination.
And by the way. let's remember one of the chief names of the Enemy is Diabolos, which means accuser. I believe he has assistant accusers working both sides of the aisle in this brouhaha. When the truth is spoken in love we grow up in Christ. Speaking without love or truth does the opposite.
love,
Fr. George
The editor professes to be amazed by the rush to invective by someone claiming to be named Mona from Fr. Joseph's parish. I believe the editor is amazed - but he shouldn't be.
Anyone who has studied the history of the church or been through real experiences of intra-parish friction should know what lurks just beneath the surface of the comity in churches just like other human institutions. The same raging beast, the same divider, accuser, Enemy identified by the New Testament as a raging lion who goes around looking for prey. He sets Sunni against Shia, Muslim against Christian, husband against wife, etc.
How does that Enemy work? According to the epistle of St. James the tongue is one of his chief allies - it is set on fire by Hell, and we know whose home field that is. And if the tongue was a "raging fire, a world of iniquity" in the first century what is the computer mouse in the twenty-first? A UNIVERSE of mischief, perhaps?
Skim the NT epistles. How many of those churches were wracked by bitterness, enmity, factions, strife, etc.? It is so much easier to set these fires than to manage them - or to rebuild what what gets burnt!
The Book of Proverbs says that among the six or seven things God hates are those who sow discord among brethren. Why? Because it takes root and spreads so readily and does so much damage.
Are the "anaxioses" pronounced here really more acceptable - or odious - to God than the insults hurled on the convention floor or The Antiochian site? I don't think so.
The readiness of certain kinds of people to trash one another, especially when they think they can get a big audience and achieve their ends without any accountability, is one of the sad facts of human existence. The editor might do well to make it harder for that kind of crap to get slung around here, especially anonymously, but until and unless he does please spare me the "surprise" that people abuse and take advantage of the opportunity. And if i could bring myself to even post on The Antiochian I would say the same thing there. Please, someone, do it for me.
For some time I had suspected strongly that a goodly percentage of the anonymous invective directed against His Eminence here over the last few months has been the work of the various people who have fallen foul of Met. Philip's past decisions, including some of the factiionalists who split Ben Lomond 11 years ago. I spoke yesterday with a man with extensive contacts among them who confirmed their intense interest in these goings on. He could not say who or how many were fanning the flames here under aliases. I have no doubt that lurking behind quite a bit of the more tendentious stuff here are people abusing the great liberality with which Mark grants anonymity here. Not all from the wrong side of the BL bitterness, mind you. They aren't the only folks with axes to grind against Englewood.
There are many reasons why people sow or promote discord among brethren. The sheer perversity of the human heart, the ease with which it deceives itself unintentionally and others deliberately when there is some kind of gain to be had lies behind the entirely wise policy that is the lynchpin of our judicial system: an accuser must give his name and be subject to cross-examination.
And by the way. let's remember one of the chief names of the Enemy is Diabolos, which means accuser. I believe he has assistant accusers working both sides of the aisle in this brouhaha. When the truth is spoken in love we grow up in Christ. Speaking without love or truth does the opposite.
love,
Fr. George
#20.1
Fr. George Washburn
on
2009-08-23 21:44
Fr. George,
First of all, my name is Owen White. I have no history with Ben Lomand. I have no axe to grind with regard to Ben Lomand. From what I have read of the affair, it was a sad one on many fronts.
Second, it seems to me that what you have written mirrors the same sort of rhetoric seen in other sects and ecclesial bodies of late, for instance the Episcopal Church - those who confront clear and obvious wrongdoing as well as pointing to that which carries all of the appearance of wrongdoing are then accused of being judgmental, even agents of Satan, as your comment suggests.
It is true what you write concerning the role of the accuser. It is true that some men become addicted to accusation and controversy.
But it is also true that Satan is the deceiver. And from its beginnings the Church has known within her ranks men who have been deceived.
St. Paul admonishes us:
I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortionists, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortionist—not even to eat with such a person.
For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.” 1 Corinthians 5:9-13.
In the current AOANA, we see a drunkard bishop who committed an act of grave sexual immorality kept in his role as bishop and paid for by the Met's apparently unilateral decision. We see a covetousness of the world with regard Conventions at expensive resorts, braggish self-promoting charitable Orders, rib dinners for the bishop's banquet on Friday nights, bishops who regularly visit casinos, and the mimicking of non-Orthodox forms of piety and praxis (even so far as to ridicule those who disagree, calling them "fundamentalists"). We see a Metropolitan who coveted the authority of his Synod in those few instances they acted as a Synod - so much that he sought to remove that authority from them. We see a cult of personality that borders on idolatry, and one which is promoted from the top, as when a hierarch demands a fourth verse of Many Years be sung to him, and is so bold as to tell his followers that he will die when he wants to. We see reviling all about, from +Antoun poking Fr. Oliver in the chest, to the derision with which Sarah Hodges was treated on the Convention floor, to the Metropolitan's comment about those dogs that would dare question him, to Mr. Samra's treatment for asking a few questions (people here from St. George's chastise him for going public so fast, but if Walid were in my parish and threatening me in that manner, I would be inclined to make the matter public quickly as well). And, yes, we see extortion. I don't think I need to go into the details of our Trustee (a man so close to the Met he was asked to represent him in Damascus) who has quite a bit of experience in that regard and has been threatening bishops, priests, and laypeople these last few months. Not to mention the attempted extortion of Mark Stokoe with regard to the seminarians. What of all this money demanded of parishes for the Miami chancery that for all we know (because there is no audit) may have gone to the condo that now belongs to the Met's brother? What of the priest's wife who went into tears when she got a phone call from Englewood demanding more money? And yes, in a culture that extorts, it is common and to be expected that persons voice dissent anonymously. We are dealing with apparently dangerous, vindictive men here.
Given all of these things, given St. Paul's admonishment that we put away from ourselves the evil person, when do you think it appropriate to cry ANAXIOS? What more needs to happen for that to be the action that is meet and right and in keeping with Christian humility and prudent discipline?
First of all, my name is Owen White. I have no history with Ben Lomand. I have no axe to grind with regard to Ben Lomand. From what I have read of the affair, it was a sad one on many fronts.
Second, it seems to me that what you have written mirrors the same sort of rhetoric seen in other sects and ecclesial bodies of late, for instance the Episcopal Church - those who confront clear and obvious wrongdoing as well as pointing to that which carries all of the appearance of wrongdoing are then accused of being judgmental, even agents of Satan, as your comment suggests.
It is true what you write concerning the role of the accuser. It is true that some men become addicted to accusation and controversy.
But it is also true that Satan is the deceiver. And from its beginnings the Church has known within her ranks men who have been deceived.
St. Paul admonishes us:
I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortionists, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortionist—not even to eat with such a person.
For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.” 1 Corinthians 5:9-13.
In the current AOANA, we see a drunkard bishop who committed an act of grave sexual immorality kept in his role as bishop and paid for by the Met's apparently unilateral decision. We see a covetousness of the world with regard Conventions at expensive resorts, braggish self-promoting charitable Orders, rib dinners for the bishop's banquet on Friday nights, bishops who regularly visit casinos, and the mimicking of non-Orthodox forms of piety and praxis (even so far as to ridicule those who disagree, calling them "fundamentalists"). We see a Metropolitan who coveted the authority of his Synod in those few instances they acted as a Synod - so much that he sought to remove that authority from them. We see a cult of personality that borders on idolatry, and one which is promoted from the top, as when a hierarch demands a fourth verse of Many Years be sung to him, and is so bold as to tell his followers that he will die when he wants to. We see reviling all about, from +Antoun poking Fr. Oliver in the chest, to the derision with which Sarah Hodges was treated on the Convention floor, to the Metropolitan's comment about those dogs that would dare question him, to Mr. Samra's treatment for asking a few questions (people here from St. George's chastise him for going public so fast, but if Walid were in my parish and threatening me in that manner, I would be inclined to make the matter public quickly as well). And, yes, we see extortion. I don't think I need to go into the details of our Trustee (a man so close to the Met he was asked to represent him in Damascus) who has quite a bit of experience in that regard and has been threatening bishops, priests, and laypeople these last few months. Not to mention the attempted extortion of Mark Stokoe with regard to the seminarians. What of all this money demanded of parishes for the Miami chancery that for all we know (because there is no audit) may have gone to the condo that now belongs to the Met's brother? What of the priest's wife who went into tears when she got a phone call from Englewood demanding more money? And yes, in a culture that extorts, it is common and to be expected that persons voice dissent anonymously. We are dealing with apparently dangerous, vindictive men here.
Given all of these things, given St. Paul's admonishment that we put away from ourselves the evil person, when do you think it appropriate to cry ANAXIOS? What more needs to happen for that to be the action that is meet and right and in keeping with Christian humility and prudent discipline?
AmAzing how reasonable questions are evaded with the old Loyalty Card!
Just have the audit as an annual line item.
This is notabout Loyalty it is About Good Stewardship.
Good Stewardship includes safeguarding the gifts,tithes and offerings from any misapproapriation by anyone.
Just have the audit as an annual line item.
This is notabout Loyalty it is About Good Stewardship.
Good Stewardship includes safeguarding the gifts,tithes and offerings from any misapproapriation by anyone.
#20.1.1.1
Anonymous
on
2009-08-24 15:16
Dear Owen and All:
Thanks, Owen, for your obviously sincere and well-intentioned reply. I appreciate VERY much your use of your real name and honor you for it. Thanks for pointing out that you have no conscious axe to grind over Ben Lomond. There is so much mis or disinformation around on that topic however that I would not be surprised to learn that somewhere in the past you thought you "learned" things about Met. Philip or that controversy which were in fact false, and you were thereby tipped a bit in the direction of doubt of his leadership.
My own position on His Eminence's leadership is that we have benefitted greatly from all the good he has done and it would behoove us all to entreat him as a father over what we think is imperfect and lacking.
Has it occurred to you that both a) you critics of His Eminence and b) his more strenuous and extreme defenders are engaged in an exercise in "lighting one another up?" Each fresh harshness on your part provokes a "go to hell" or a "get out of our church" or a resolution of unquestioning obedience on the other side. Each time they do that you and your fellow reformers get a second wind and shout your slogans and labels all the louder.
I appreciate your quote from I Corinthians, but feel that you may have stopped reading or quoting a chapter or so too soon.
I Cor. 6:9-10 recites a lengthy list of wrongdoing that is forbidden to Christians and warns that practitioners of those sins will not inherit the kingdom of God. St. Paul then continues in v. 11 "...and such were some of you, but you were washed, you were sanctified..."
I do not think that the verbiage you used on the issue of Bishop Demetri in your reply to me correctly characterizes him today. You write as if he is a currently a drunkard and groper, The evidence instead is that several years ago he was an active alcohol abuser and once groped an adult woman on camera in a place of "public amusement" which one would hope bishops would never visit.
Your language implies he never suffered any consequences and has simply been allowed to go on with wrongdoing. Hence your quote from the wrong chapter of I Corinthians, where Paul writes about the people who insisted on exercising membership in the church without forsaking their sins. Them you gotta separate from. No argument here. That's I Cor. 5 all right!
But ALL available evidence is that Bishop Demetri suffered the appropriate penalties for his wrongs and he is in I Cor. 6:11. Criminal santions approved by the legislature, advocated by the prosecutor and imposed by a judge. Removal from his office as bishop. Successful completion of alcohol rehab. Public disgrace and living a life of some degree of reclusion for years if I understand the facts correctly. (Feel free to correct me if I have it wrong.) The latter were imposed by the Church as requirements.
So we are not talking about a "wink, wink, nudge, nudge" sweeping of dirt under the rug, but rather a public airing of the truth. And following several years of humility on the sidelines a quiet reintroduction to ministry in another Archdiocese.
Reasonable minds can differ about when, or if at all, a bishop who disgraces the church in such a way can ever hold his office again. I personally think we show more honor to the spirit of the New Testament and the importance of the office is we do not assign him to public episcopal service. But that is not my call.
The ones who made it - seemingly the Patriarch and at least two Metropolitans are better situated than I to make that call.
Is a difference of opinion on the genuineness of his repentance and the appropriate degree and term of the sanctions to be imposed something to burn the Church down over? In my opinion the answer is a clear "no."
And that gets to the nub of what I was writing about. I do not think you read it carefully or filtered out your mental associations with what Episcopalians do. I do not deny that questions such as Bishop Demetri's repentance and the degree of sanction are legitimate questions for us to think, pray or talk about.
What I do not see, however, is the ability to do so with the proper measure of Christian grace. Those who think their right or duty to criticize the Bishop when he is down or trying to get back up gives them license to show contempt for those who see it differently are just flat wrong. There are ways to discuss tough, important issues with apprpriate seriousness.
The history of the Church shows that there is always a class of people who will take that right - or better yet, PRIVILEGE - and abuse it. And when they are given license to operate the high language employed, the willingness to make every undulation in the landscape a hill to die upon, is just flat wrongheaded and ultimately destructive of the Church.
I seem to recall from one or two excursions to the Ochlo site references to one wife and multiple children in your life. The fact that you speak of the wife in the present tense strongly suggests that you have learned how and when to express any valid criticisms, and how to rank them in importance and spend whatever marital capital you have earned on things that are both important and capable of some adjustment.
A similar evaluative skill is necessary for good citizenship in the church. People who can't show or learn it are just going to spoil things for themselves and others as several of the anonymous and non-anonymous here are bent on demonstrating.
You seem to misundersytad something that natters to me a whole lot. I do NOT dispute the need for the laity participate constantly and constructively in the life and governance of the Church. Nor do I label respectful, patient, even-tempered critics of our present church government automatically as bad guys andy more than I confer good guy status on the defenders. There are people making their points the right way on both "sides" ... and people who aren't, too. In my book the good guys are those on any side of these issues who recognize that whatever we do or say must be done with grace and patience or worse sins will be committed. Don't forget, my comment was spurred by a reference to your team as "animals" by a Mona. I think I said how sad and inappropriate that was; if I didn't let me make that clear right now.
But we mustn't be surprised as the editor professed to be that we are in the land of invective now. It was obvious that was where the most extreme in either "camp" would drag us. How many of the divisions of the past do you think were spurred by people determined to purify their Church of something they were sure was wrong, and how many of them ended up doing something at least as bad and probably far worse - further rending the already-tattered fabric of the Church - as a result?
Resorting to religious swear-words like "anaxios" and "animal" advances the dialogue in exactly the wrong direction ... and causes the merry go round of anger, bitterness, contention, to spin faster and faster. How many references to that can you find in the NT epistles?
love,
Fr. George
Thanks, Owen, for your obviously sincere and well-intentioned reply. I appreciate VERY much your use of your real name and honor you for it. Thanks for pointing out that you have no conscious axe to grind over Ben Lomond. There is so much mis or disinformation around on that topic however that I would not be surprised to learn that somewhere in the past you thought you "learned" things about Met. Philip or that controversy which were in fact false, and you were thereby tipped a bit in the direction of doubt of his leadership.
My own position on His Eminence's leadership is that we have benefitted greatly from all the good he has done and it would behoove us all to entreat him as a father over what we think is imperfect and lacking.
Has it occurred to you that both a) you critics of His Eminence and b) his more strenuous and extreme defenders are engaged in an exercise in "lighting one another up?" Each fresh harshness on your part provokes a "go to hell" or a "get out of our church" or a resolution of unquestioning obedience on the other side. Each time they do that you and your fellow reformers get a second wind and shout your slogans and labels all the louder.
I appreciate your quote from I Corinthians, but feel that you may have stopped reading or quoting a chapter or so too soon.
I Cor. 6:9-10 recites a lengthy list of wrongdoing that is forbidden to Christians and warns that practitioners of those sins will not inherit the kingdom of God. St. Paul then continues in v. 11 "...and such were some of you, but you were washed, you were sanctified..."
I do not think that the verbiage you used on the issue of Bishop Demetri in your reply to me correctly characterizes him today. You write as if he is a currently a drunkard and groper, The evidence instead is that several years ago he was an active alcohol abuser and once groped an adult woman on camera in a place of "public amusement" which one would hope bishops would never visit.
Your language implies he never suffered any consequences and has simply been allowed to go on with wrongdoing. Hence your quote from the wrong chapter of I Corinthians, where Paul writes about the people who insisted on exercising membership in the church without forsaking their sins. Them you gotta separate from. No argument here. That's I Cor. 5 all right!
But ALL available evidence is that Bishop Demetri suffered the appropriate penalties for his wrongs and he is in I Cor. 6:11. Criminal santions approved by the legislature, advocated by the prosecutor and imposed by a judge. Removal from his office as bishop. Successful completion of alcohol rehab. Public disgrace and living a life of some degree of reclusion for years if I understand the facts correctly. (Feel free to correct me if I have it wrong.) The latter were imposed by the Church as requirements.
So we are not talking about a "wink, wink, nudge, nudge" sweeping of dirt under the rug, but rather a public airing of the truth. And following several years of humility on the sidelines a quiet reintroduction to ministry in another Archdiocese.
Reasonable minds can differ about when, or if at all, a bishop who disgraces the church in such a way can ever hold his office again. I personally think we show more honor to the spirit of the New Testament and the importance of the office is we do not assign him to public episcopal service. But that is not my call.
The ones who made it - seemingly the Patriarch and at least two Metropolitans are better situated than I to make that call.
Is a difference of opinion on the genuineness of his repentance and the appropriate degree and term of the sanctions to be imposed something to burn the Church down over? In my opinion the answer is a clear "no."
And that gets to the nub of what I was writing about. I do not think you read it carefully or filtered out your mental associations with what Episcopalians do. I do not deny that questions such as Bishop Demetri's repentance and the degree of sanction are legitimate questions for us to think, pray or talk about.
What I do not see, however, is the ability to do so with the proper measure of Christian grace. Those who think their right or duty to criticize the Bishop when he is down or trying to get back up gives them license to show contempt for those who see it differently are just flat wrong. There are ways to discuss tough, important issues with apprpriate seriousness.
The history of the Church shows that there is always a class of people who will take that right - or better yet, PRIVILEGE - and abuse it. And when they are given license to operate the high language employed, the willingness to make every undulation in the landscape a hill to die upon, is just flat wrongheaded and ultimately destructive of the Church.
I seem to recall from one or two excursions to the Ochlo site references to one wife and multiple children in your life. The fact that you speak of the wife in the present tense strongly suggests that you have learned how and when to express any valid criticisms, and how to rank them in importance and spend whatever marital capital you have earned on things that are both important and capable of some adjustment.
A similar evaluative skill is necessary for good citizenship in the church. People who can't show or learn it are just going to spoil things for themselves and others as several of the anonymous and non-anonymous here are bent on demonstrating.
You seem to misundersytad something that natters to me a whole lot. I do NOT dispute the need for the laity participate constantly and constructively in the life and governance of the Church. Nor do I label respectful, patient, even-tempered critics of our present church government automatically as bad guys andy more than I confer good guy status on the defenders. There are people making their points the right way on both "sides" ... and people who aren't, too. In my book the good guys are those on any side of these issues who recognize that whatever we do or say must be done with grace and patience or worse sins will be committed. Don't forget, my comment was spurred by a reference to your team as "animals" by a Mona. I think I said how sad and inappropriate that was; if I didn't let me make that clear right now.
But we mustn't be surprised as the editor professed to be that we are in the land of invective now. It was obvious that was where the most extreme in either "camp" would drag us. How many of the divisions of the past do you think were spurred by people determined to purify their Church of something they were sure was wrong, and how many of them ended up doing something at least as bad and probably far worse - further rending the already-tattered fabric of the Church - as a result?
Resorting to religious swear-words like "anaxios" and "animal" advances the dialogue in exactly the wrong direction ... and causes the merry go round of anger, bitterness, contention, to spin faster and faster. How many references to that can you find in the NT epistles?
love,
Fr. George
#20.1.1.2
Fr. George Washburn
on
2009-08-24 18:25
"Thanks for pointing out that you have no conscious axe to grind over Ben Lomond. There is so much mis or disinformation around on that topic however that I would not be surprised to learn that somewhere in the past you thought you "learned" things about Met. Philip or that controversy which were in fact false, and you were thereby tipped a bit in the direction of doubt of his leadership."
Priest George. First off let me state that I have absolutely no axe to grind over Ben Lomond - I entered the Church after that affair went down. Having said that, I am beginning to wonder about the 'official' account. Witnessing your incessant harping on the affair, your stated involvement in it, your obvious bias in favor of the 'winning' side (your side), and your present attempt to slander those on the 'losing' side as being somehow connected in exposing the misdeeds of Philip and his cronies in the current scandals; I am swiftly coming to the conclusion that there is indeed an axe being ground over Ben Lomond and it appears to be you doing the grinding.
Let it go already. Philip and his cohort won that purported uprising (and given Philip's present actions and your spin I'm beginning to wonder if that's what it was) and blind obedience to Dear Leader was maintained. Rest on your laurels, your brothers at Ben Lomond were crushed, Philip was triumphet. What more do you want? A Triumphal Arch built in Englewood upon the spiritual bones of the defeated?
Heracleides
Priest George. First off let me state that I have absolutely no axe to grind over Ben Lomond - I entered the Church after that affair went down. Having said that, I am beginning to wonder about the 'official' account. Witnessing your incessant harping on the affair, your stated involvement in it, your obvious bias in favor of the 'winning' side (your side), and your present attempt to slander those on the 'losing' side as being somehow connected in exposing the misdeeds of Philip and his cronies in the current scandals; I am swiftly coming to the conclusion that there is indeed an axe being ground over Ben Lomond and it appears to be you doing the grinding.
Let it go already. Philip and his cohort won that purported uprising (and given Philip's present actions and your spin I'm beginning to wonder if that's what it was) and blind obedience to Dear Leader was maintained. Rest on your laurels, your brothers at Ben Lomond were crushed, Philip was triumphet. What more do you want? A Triumphal Arch built in Englewood upon the spiritual bones of the defeated?
Heracleides
#20.1.1.2.1
Heracleides
on
2009-08-25 11:00
The well-intentioned misconstructions of a lot of people including "Heracleides" regarding BL and its significance for our times are precisely why I refer to it. It is something I know about,although perhaps I have been too close to be as objective as I wold like.
Be that as it may, BL was by no means a quickly understood, evening-news- sound-bite phenomenon. I would be willing to discuss the ideas and their significance with him, but not without either a) his true name, or b) his good faith statement as to why he can't take the risk of being known and accountable by name for his views.
H.'s comments illustrate one of the great weaknesses of this forum and this kind of exchange. We never actually see or get to know and understand the true person, the stranger one can "trash in a flash" with flip remarks about building a triumphal arch on the spiritual bones of people who had been my friends, neighbors and co-workers for 20+ years. Just because they were grievously wrong that time doesn't mean they are wrong about anything and everything else or that Met. Philip is always right.
love,
Fr. George
Be that as it may, BL was by no means a quickly understood, evening-news- sound-bite phenomenon. I would be willing to discuss the ideas and their significance with him, but not without either a) his true name, or b) his good faith statement as to why he can't take the risk of being known and accountable by name for his views.
H.'s comments illustrate one of the great weaknesses of this forum and this kind of exchange. We never actually see or get to know and understand the true person, the stranger one can "trash in a flash" with flip remarks about building a triumphal arch on the spiritual bones of people who had been my friends, neighbors and co-workers for 20+ years. Just because they were grievously wrong that time doesn't mean they are wrong about anything and everything else or that Met. Philip is always right.
love,
Fr. George
#20.1.1.2.1.1
Fr. George Washburn
on
2009-08-27 07:50
Deares Fr george,
Once again your unflagging biases are showing through or you simply speak about matters you know nothing of.
Where did you study Orthodox Theology?
Do you have a Degree in Canon Law?
Bishop Demitri was sanctioned, but not removed from the episcopacy.
The Canons very clearly stipulate one who has done what Demetri has done is to be deposed, i.e., NO LONGER A BISHOP!
Once again your unflagging biases are showing through or you simply speak about matters you know nothing of.
Where did you study Orthodox Theology?
Do you have a Degree in Canon Law?
Bishop Demitri was sanctioned, but not removed from the episcopacy.
The Canons very clearly stipulate one who has done what Demetri has done is to be deposed, i.e., NO LONGER A BISHOP!
#20.1.1.2.2
abed-antipass abed-philip
on
2009-08-26 04:01
"The history of the Church shows that there is always a class of people who will take that right - or better yet, PRIVILEGE - and abuse it. And when they are given license to operate the high language employed, the willingness to make every undulation in the landscape a hill to die upon, is just flat wrongheaded and ultimately destructive of the Church."
Yeah, that nails it.
The language of rights is of little use in a ethical world we are to navigate, not principally by what is "lawful," but by what is "helpful." I would only emphasize that the giver of this privilege and license is God — that it is an integral part of membership in the Body, perhaps best described as an example of prophesy. But there are false prophecies and false prophets.
As to Bp. Demetri — well, this is about far more than Bp. Demetri alone. Other issues include Met. Philip's unilateral participation in lifting a ban decided upon by our entire Synod, his (reported) dishonesty in presenting the events in question, and the legal liability he may be bringing on the Archdiocese. Of course, you will know more about this last item than I, but there is also the issue of what one might call publicity liability. The likelihood of a reoccurrence is difficult to know, but the consequences of one in the public eye would be catastrophic. Talk about burning down the Church!
The fact is, Bp. Demetri did not suffer the appointed penalty for his actions. By extreme economia, he was allowed to keep his rank and retire from his duties. In fact, the mere act of entering such a place is sufficient for deposition—and we are talking about a man who went to prison for a sex crime while in office . (Please: read that again.) Still, we continued to call him "Bishop." And let us not forget that he was also guaranteed a permanent living. What deposed priest with wife and children has ever been treated with such liberality?
And the faithful did not begrudge him this arrangement. In fact, however much people may object to the idea of him being returned to service, no one is proposing to "burn down the Church" to prevent it. We do not, however, think it right or prudent to finance this. According to our bishop-approved governing documents, policy-making—that is, legislation—regarding Archdiocesan business is a function of the General Assembly.
And when our father-in-Christ was, with all respect, entreated to let this body do its job, what was his reply? "Ma-beddi" — "I don't want it." And then he let his spiritual daughter be jeered back to her seat by his loyal and obedient clergy.
We've tried entreating him as a father—the same way the bishops tried entreating him as a brother over their attempted demotions. Nothing changed on that latter front until people simply fought it. Owen's right: there's only so many times you can come across Dad drunk, naked, and passed-out before it's time to do more, for him and for everyone else, than just cover it up.
Yeah, that nails it.
The language of rights is of little use in a ethical world we are to navigate, not principally by what is "lawful," but by what is "helpful." I would only emphasize that the giver of this privilege and license is God — that it is an integral part of membership in the Body, perhaps best described as an example of prophesy. But there are false prophecies and false prophets.
As to Bp. Demetri — well, this is about far more than Bp. Demetri alone. Other issues include Met. Philip's unilateral participation in lifting a ban decided upon by our entire Synod, his (reported) dishonesty in presenting the events in question, and the legal liability he may be bringing on the Archdiocese. Of course, you will know more about this last item than I, but there is also the issue of what one might call publicity liability. The likelihood of a reoccurrence is difficult to know, but the consequences of one in the public eye would be catastrophic. Talk about burning down the Church!
The fact is, Bp. Demetri did not suffer the appointed penalty for his actions. By extreme economia, he was allowed to keep his rank and retire from his duties. In fact, the mere act of entering such a place is sufficient for deposition—and we are talking about a man who went to prison for a sex crime while in office . (Please: read that again.) Still, we continued to call him "Bishop." And let us not forget that he was also guaranteed a permanent living. What deposed priest with wife and children has ever been treated with such liberality?
And the faithful did not begrudge him this arrangement. In fact, however much people may object to the idea of him being returned to service, no one is proposing to "burn down the Church" to prevent it. We do not, however, think it right or prudent to finance this. According to our bishop-approved governing documents, policy-making—that is, legislation—regarding Archdiocesan business is a function of the General Assembly.
And when our father-in-Christ was, with all respect, entreated to let this body do its job, what was his reply? "Ma-beddi" — "I don't want it." And then he let his spiritual daughter be jeered back to her seat by his loyal and obedient clergy.
We've tried entreating him as a father—the same way the bishops tried entreating him as a brother over their attempted demotions. Nothing changed on that latter front until people simply fought it. Owen's right: there's only so many times you can come across Dad drunk, naked, and passed-out before it's time to do more, for him and for everyone else, than just cover it up.
#20.1.1.2.3
A Fellow Orthodox Christian
on
2009-08-26 04:30
Didn't St Paul order the Church of Corinth to restore the formerly sexually immoral man in his second letter?
#20.1.1.3
Anonymous
on
2009-08-25 14:46
St Paul had the man restored to communion, but he was not in a place of leadership.
The church always offers the forgiveness without hesitation, but restoration to communion is sometimes restored after a long period of self examination, etc, known as penance.
Restoration to the office of deacon, priest or bishop after being DEPOSED is unheard of for such an offence.
Bp Demetri should be glad he retained the office and a retirement.
How many priests have been mercilessly disciplined by MP with no hope of restoration and their families out on the street peniless?
In fact how many clergy are scraping to get by while MP sits on $20 million and refuses an AUDIT as well?
The church always offers the forgiveness without hesitation, but restoration to communion is sometimes restored after a long period of self examination, etc, known as penance.
Restoration to the office of deacon, priest or bishop after being DEPOSED is unheard of for such an offence.
Bp Demetri should be glad he retained the office and a retirement.
How many priests have been mercilessly disciplined by MP with no hope of restoration and their families out on the street peniless?
In fact how many clergy are scraping to get by while MP sits on $20 million and refuses an AUDIT as well?
#20.1.1.3.1
anon and anon
on
2009-08-26 19:34
Well, yes — there is freedom given here to post anonymously. It is not absolute, however. Mark has called out people whom he has discovered to be using multiple identities, and he states in this thread that he normally suppresses simply vicious comments.
As someone who has been reading this site for years, I too am surprised at what I am now seeing. To call people animals ? To talk about them as dogs that need to be shot ?
Father, you've taken some heat online—but has anyone ever accounted for your opinions by stating that you have been sodomized by your family members?
Any moment now, by the way, I expect someone to inform me that this language is merely an "Arab thing." Let me head that off by noting that such a defense of sin—sin condemned by Christ Himself—is not cultural sensitivity but base racism.
In fact, let us look at Christ's teaching. He tells us that to call a man "a fool" is worthy of hellfire. Why is this insult such an offense? Says St. John Chrysostom, commenting on this passage:
"Think it not a light thing to call another moré [Greek for 'fool' or 'stupid']. For when thou hast robbed thy brother of that which separates us from the brutes , and by which we are human beings—the mind and the understanding—thou hast deprived him of all his nobility." (qtd in Orthodox New Testament , v. 1, p. 87)
As to "anaxios": well, we are all unworthy. We are also all saints; but of course only some of us are saints — you know? After a certain point, things go over the top. And you can disagree with those who feel that Met. Philip has hit that point in being unworthy of his office, but I don't think you can accuse them of madness for holding such an opinion.
To turn again to St. John Chrysostom: As I have noted before, he licenses quick rebellion against a bishop who is "wicked" in regards to the faith. As regards ethical matters, he calls for greater caution—indeed tolerance: "be not over-curious" [ http://is.gd/2x2OA ]. Met. Philip met the first of these criteria when he travestied our ecclesiology in his attempt to usurp six episcopal thrones. And, the more I learn about his opinions regarding Islam and the role of Muslims in Church life, the more I feel that accusations of unfaithfulness might justly have been raised long ago.
As to the second, no curiosity—much less over-curiosity—is needed to come away from the convention broadcasts deeply shaken as regards the Metropolitan's probity. Prior to the convention, I supposed that an audit would find some careless tax errors and some questionable (but only questionable) support of Old Country bishops and other folk. Now—and, let me note, on the basis of no more than the event itself—I am convinced that there is deep corruption in the affairs of the Archdiocese.
Sometimes it is right and good to call a spade a spade. Sometimes it is even a sin not to.
As someone who has been reading this site for years, I too am surprised at what I am now seeing. To call people animals ? To talk about them as dogs that need to be shot ?
Father, you've taken some heat online—but has anyone ever accounted for your opinions by stating that you have been sodomized by your family members?
Any moment now, by the way, I expect someone to inform me that this language is merely an "Arab thing." Let me head that off by noting that such a defense of sin—sin condemned by Christ Himself—is not cultural sensitivity but base racism.
In fact, let us look at Christ's teaching. He tells us that to call a man "a fool" is worthy of hellfire. Why is this insult such an offense? Says St. John Chrysostom, commenting on this passage:
"Think it not a light thing to call another moré [Greek for 'fool' or 'stupid']. For when thou hast robbed thy brother of that which separates us from the brutes , and by which we are human beings—the mind and the understanding—thou hast deprived him of all his nobility." (qtd in Orthodox New Testament , v. 1, p. 87)
As to "anaxios": well, we are all unworthy. We are also all saints; but of course only some of us are saints — you know? After a certain point, things go over the top. And you can disagree with those who feel that Met. Philip has hit that point in being unworthy of his office, but I don't think you can accuse them of madness for holding such an opinion.
To turn again to St. John Chrysostom: As I have noted before, he licenses quick rebellion against a bishop who is "wicked" in regards to the faith. As regards ethical matters, he calls for greater caution—indeed tolerance: "be not over-curious" [ http://is.gd/2x2OA ]. Met. Philip met the first of these criteria when he travestied our ecclesiology in his attempt to usurp six episcopal thrones. And, the more I learn about his opinions regarding Islam and the role of Muslims in Church life, the more I feel that accusations of unfaithfulness might justly have been raised long ago.
As to the second, no curiosity—much less over-curiosity—is needed to come away from the convention broadcasts deeply shaken as regards the Metropolitan's probity. Prior to the convention, I supposed that an audit would find some careless tax errors and some questionable (but only questionable) support of Old Country bishops and other folk. Now—and, let me note, on the basis of no more than the event itself—I am convinced that there is deep corruption in the affairs of the Archdiocese.
Sometimes it is right and good to call a spade a spade. Sometimes it is even a sin not to.
#20.1.2
A Fellow Orthodox Christian
on
2009-08-24 20:31
george samra, david thomas and bishop mark should all go to hell where they belong
(Editor's note: Usually I do not publish such things, but I think it important, revealing, albeit profoundly disturbing, to read this kind of response. It is important for everyone to know what is being said, so they can deal with this pastorally, rather than keep it hidden, so that it continues to fester, as it clearly has, for years. Lord have mercy!)
(Editor's note: Usually I do not publish such things, but I think it important, revealing, albeit profoundly disturbing, to read this kind of response. It is important for everyone to know what is being said, so they can deal with this pastorally, rather than keep it hidden, so that it continues to fester, as it clearly has, for years. Lord have mercy!)
#21
Anonymous
on
2009-08-22 17:45
This is unconstructive and unchristian. Please refrain from such comments.
#21.1
Delegate #1
on
2009-08-23 16:58
If I were you, O bold anonymous one, I would refrain from approaching the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ until I had begun praying for my brothers instead of cursing them.
St. Paul says that's the sort of thing that could even be fatal. It's called not discerning the Body of Christ, and a lot of folks in Corinth were sick and weak because of it, and a few were dead because of it.
Read 1st Corinthians, all of it, for more information.
You might want to focus on the 13th chapter.
St. Paul says that's the sort of thing that could even be fatal. It's called not discerning the Body of Christ, and a lot of folks in Corinth were sick and weak because of it, and a few were dead because of it.
Read 1st Corinthians, all of it, for more information.
You might want to focus on the 13th chapter.
#21.2
Scott Walker
on
2009-08-25 11:31
My name is Issmat Simon Nasr, one of St. George's parishioners. I cannot believe the nerve that you, George Samra, has to say all these terrible accusations. In the upcoming meeting, all accusations will be addressed and answered, and if this was happening to me I would sue for slander for making these accusations public and trying to ruin the names of our Fr. and all Parish Council members in the past and present. George Samra, you have been in the Council since the beginning of the year. Why have you not asked these questions nor have you asked the Parish Council about these matters? You have seen the financial reports and said nothing but instead you acted like a snake trying to make yourself seem as if you are the trust-worthy man and make Fr. Joseph seem as if he were a thief. It reminds me of Judas who betrayed Jesus Christ. Shame on you and shame on every single person that has posted such horrid things about our Metropolitan Phillip and V. Rev. Fr. Joseph Anytpas. It's one thing if found guilty of such accusations, but like simple minded people who do not have any excitement in their lives will always believe in the bad before the good. I pray that you all open your eyes and your hearts and see past these insane accusations made against our humble and worthy V. Rev. Fr. Antypas.
Also, anyone who post comments about such serious matters should write their names, first and last when posting these comments. Although, quite honestly, I believe that George Samra and George Samra alone is posting these comments that are low and disrespectful.
George Samra, ask yourself this question, do you follow the Ten Comandments especially the ninth?
"9. You shall not bear false witness.
Have I told lies, or added to or subtracted from the truth? Have I made careless state-ments or spoken evil of anyone? Have I told any secrets entrusted to me, or betrayed any one? Have I gossiped about anyone or harmed their reputation? Have I concealed the truth, assisted in carrying out a lie, or pretended to commit a sin of which I was not guilty? Have I tried to see the good in others rather than their shortcomings?"
Have some respect! And if you think that what you are doing will convince us that V. Rev. Fr. Antypas has cheated us in any way, we would like to have you know that it is not possible and we would never doubt or question the actions of our Fr. Joseph. May God guide you in the right direction, for you are not following God's pathway. Also, may God grant Fr. Antypas the strength to keep prayers in his heart for people like you.
Issmat Simon Nasr
(Editor's note: Mr. Nasr: Unless Mr. Samra lives in 15 different suburbs of Detroit , and a score or more of states, the comments come from many difference people. )
Also, anyone who post comments about such serious matters should write their names, first and last when posting these comments. Although, quite honestly, I believe that George Samra and George Samra alone is posting these comments that are low and disrespectful.
George Samra, ask yourself this question, do you follow the Ten Comandments especially the ninth?
"9. You shall not bear false witness.
Have I told lies, or added to or subtracted from the truth? Have I made careless state-ments or spoken evil of anyone? Have I told any secrets entrusted to me, or betrayed any one? Have I gossiped about anyone or harmed their reputation? Have I concealed the truth, assisted in carrying out a lie, or pretended to commit a sin of which I was not guilty? Have I tried to see the good in others rather than their shortcomings?"
Have some respect! And if you think that what you are doing will convince us that V. Rev. Fr. Antypas has cheated us in any way, we would like to have you know that it is not possible and we would never doubt or question the actions of our Fr. Joseph. May God guide you in the right direction, for you are not following God's pathway. Also, may God grant Fr. Antypas the strength to keep prayers in his heart for people like you.
Issmat Simon Nasr
(Editor's note: Mr. Nasr: Unless Mr. Samra lives in 15 different suburbs of Detroit , and a score or more of states, the comments come from many difference people. )
#22
Issmat Simon Nasr
on
2009-08-22 18:22
WhAt accusations have George Samra and David Thomas
made?
They simply asked questions!
What kind of sick environment havewe cultivated in Troy and by Joe and Philip that sincere responsible questions are equated with accusations!
The real question is what are we hiding when we make accusations against someone who has been uncanonically punished?
Let George show you the evidence and then pursue the full audit asxresponsible Christians
do not put your head in the sand it does not taste good!
made?
They simply asked questions!
What kind of sick environment havewe cultivated in Troy and by Joe and Philip that sincere responsible questions are equated with accusations!
The real question is what are we hiding when we make accusations against someone who has been uncanonically punished?
Let George show you the evidence and then pursue the full audit asxresponsible Christians
do not put your head in the sand it does not taste good!
#22.1
BetrAyed by Philip and joe
on
2009-08-23 05:20
"WhAt accusations have George Samra and David Thomas
made?
They simply asked questions!"
****That's what is SO disturbing about the state of the Church today. Simply asking questions, (albeit hard ones) is considered, disobedient, judgmental, un-Christian behavior. Don't ask, just obey. This sort of thinking is very cult-like, and it's beginning to really scare me, when simply "questioning" someone in authority is considered a sin worthy of excommunication and being sent to hell. Is this Orthodoxy? Is this really what the faith has taught? Because frankly if it is, I want no part of it.
made?
They simply asked questions!"
****That's what is SO disturbing about the state of the Church today. Simply asking questions, (albeit hard ones) is considered, disobedient, judgmental, un-Christian behavior. Don't ask, just obey. This sort of thinking is very cult-like, and it's beginning to really scare me, when simply "questioning" someone in authority is considered a sin worthy of excommunication and being sent to hell. Is this Orthodoxy? Is this really what the faith has taught? Because frankly if it is, I want no part of it.
#22.1.1
Chuck Shingledecker
on
2009-08-23 08:05
Asking a simple question is fine if the answer was not given then go to the Parish Concil Members or the board to get such answer the acusations is an internal affair and should only be brought public if all means above failed.
#22.1.2
Anonymous
on
2009-08-23 15:33
Dear Editor,
With respect to you about the 15 suburbs that the postings are coming from it is very easy to send these messages from family and friend computers that will give you different MAC Address and IP addresses, also ISP, you also have libraries and Kinkos, in case he does not have that many friends and family For an example I have replied to you from my brothers home using wireless connection.
Thank you,
Issmat Simon Nasr
With respect to you about the 15 suburbs that the postings are coming from it is very easy to send these messages from family and friend computers that will give you different MAC Address and IP addresses, also ISP, you also have libraries and Kinkos, in case he does not have that many friends and family For an example I have replied to you from my brothers home using wireless connection.
Thank you,
Issmat Simon Nasr
#22.2
Issmat Simon Nasr
on
2009-08-23 11:14
This is exactly the right question . . . What ACCUSATIONS have been made? A new treasurer takes the helm at a parish, asks questions, and is apparently treated miserably (although I understand that George Samra was given communion this past weekend by Father Ayman).
One should read George's letter carefully-- he simply wants answers to his questions. If the answers are simple and clear, what is the big deal? These should have been answered by Father Joseph and/or other parish council members. A big uproar over simple questions leads one to believe that the uproar is smoke and that some fire exists.
Bottom line is that George did not make any accusations, despite parishioners' attempts to turn them into or treat them as accusations. This is exactly what happened at the General Convention-- a couple of folks turn up with a very professional and cogent document that lines out the reasons a financial audit ought to be conducted and the powers that be "spin" the document as an attack on Metropolitan Philip. Anyone with a modicum of sense could see that the document not only was devoid of accusations but actually written with a point of view of defending +Philip and the Trustees. The resistance to simply answering questions gives rise to smoke; and we all know that, if there's smoke, there's fire.
If the smoke is just a little dust from someone trying to understand the parish's (or Archdiocese's) ancient, inefficient, and effective-but-not-playing-by-the-rules ways of doing things, let someone stand up and demonstrate it. If there's no fire, open the books and answer clearly.
One should read George's letter carefully-- he simply wants answers to his questions. If the answers are simple and clear, what is the big deal? These should have been answered by Father Joseph and/or other parish council members. A big uproar over simple questions leads one to believe that the uproar is smoke and that some fire exists.
Bottom line is that George did not make any accusations, despite parishioners' attempts to turn them into or treat them as accusations. This is exactly what happened at the General Convention-- a couple of folks turn up with a very professional and cogent document that lines out the reasons a financial audit ought to be conducted and the powers that be "spin" the document as an attack on Metropolitan Philip. Anyone with a modicum of sense could see that the document not only was devoid of accusations but actually written with a point of view of defending +Philip and the Trustees. The resistance to simply answering questions gives rise to smoke; and we all know that, if there's smoke, there's fire.
If the smoke is just a little dust from someone trying to understand the parish's (or Archdiocese's) ancient, inefficient, and effective-but-not-playing-by-the-rules ways of doing things, let someone stand up and demonstrate it. If there's no fire, open the books and answer clearly.
#22.3
James
on
2009-08-24 08:07
James the books are and I'm sure will be opened. But the way that George went about doing this was not in a way to find information but instead to tarnish the reputation of Fr. Antypas, when everything is cleared up on Wednesday, you will have a split Parish because some will believe in the truth and others simply want to believe in the lies. Examples OJ Simpson was found innocent by law, but a lot of us including myself believes he was guilty,the same with Michael Jackson. The damage is done once accused it is almost immpossible to regain 100% of the trust that should be given to Fr. Antypas again if this was happening to me I will sue for slander especialy now since he has the media involved in this to further his efforts to tarnish Fr. Antypas, after all this is his livelyhood.
#22.3.1
Issmat Nasr
on
2009-08-24 19:09
Truth is always a defense against charges of slander.
I honestly am startled to hear that ANY church has accounts that the parish treasurer cannot access. What's the point of having a treasurer if he is not allowed to track all money coming in or going out?
Also, I have served my time on parish councils, and I have never yet heard a fellow council member threatening to shoot a treasurer in the head. Ever. Is that how they do things in Troy? It sounds more like the Corleone Family during the brief reign of Sonny.
Thank God that a wise monk talked me out of it when I was thinking about fleeing to Antioch when we were deep in our troubles in the OCA. Many years to you, Fr. Ignatius! Thanks again.
I honestly am startled to hear that ANY church has accounts that the parish treasurer cannot access. What's the point of having a treasurer if he is not allowed to track all money coming in or going out?
Also, I have served my time on parish councils, and I have never yet heard a fellow council member threatening to shoot a treasurer in the head. Ever. Is that how they do things in Troy? It sounds more like the Corleone Family during the brief reign of Sonny.
Thank God that a wise monk talked me out of it when I was thinking about fleeing to Antioch when we were deep in our troubles in the OCA. Many years to you, Fr. Ignatius! Thanks again.
#22.3.1.1
Scott Walker
on
2009-08-25 11:42
Interesting how you have chosen two men you fellt guilty but found innocent.
Perhaps you have been reading the ole coffee grounds again?
Will Fr Joseph be proclaimed innocent this eveing by those in power, yet believed guilty by those who are not?
There is much that begs a thorough, complete and independent audit.
If the AUDIT is completely independent with a firm that has no connections to Fr Joseph or any parishioner for that matter, their results may be acceptable to all.
I must include one exception, the firm must have thorough experience in Church accounting, as they know where to look for improprieties.
Not only must an audit be done, but the check register must be open to the parish council for St George Towers as well asthe banquest Hall.
The Council and Faithful should know where the money comes from and where it goes or to whom it goes.
Perhaps you have been reading the ole coffee grounds again?
Will Fr Joseph be proclaimed innocent this eveing by those in power, yet believed guilty by those who are not?
There is much that begs a thorough, complete and independent audit.
If the AUDIT is completely independent with a firm that has no connections to Fr Joseph or any parishioner for that matter, their results may be acceptable to all.
I must include one exception, the firm must have thorough experience in Church accounting, as they know where to look for improprieties.
Not only must an audit be done, but the check register must be open to the parish council for St George Towers as well asthe banquest Hall.
The Council and Faithful should know where the money comes from and where it goes or to whom it goes.
#22.3.1.2
abed-antipass abed-philip
on
2009-08-26 04:36
My name is Shakeeb Mazer. I have been in the Church for many years with Father Joseph. He serves as the best example and teacher to my children and I truly respect and give my deepest gratitude to him. I am baffold with all that I have read and heard about him. It is upsetting and shameful for anyone that makes or believes such accusations. I believe that any accusations made are made merely out of jealousy and hatred, which upsets me for it is not the Christian way of living.
Fr. Joseph is a man of respect, loyalty, honesty and pure love and it confuses me how anyone in their right state of mind can talk so negatively and so disrepectfully about Fr. Joseph, the man who has led us through hardship and suffering, through happiness and through joy and has served in the Archdiocese for so many years. Not once has he ever failed us and not once have we or will we ever question him. We will NOT tolerate or allow someone as ignorant of men as George Samra and David Thomas to talk of things they do not know of nor will we ever believe the false accusations that they have made against Father Joseph. I only hope and pray that anyone who has read these postings against Fr. Joseph do not take them to heart or be naive. I only hope that everyone sees through these lies and realizes that they are trying to manipulate the minds of the parishioners in an effort to turn them against Fr. Joseph.
Wherever Fr. Joseph goes, my family and I will follow. We truly respect and support Fr. Joseph. May God bless him and give him the strength to remain the kind, innocent and loving man that he is. I also pray that anyone that doubts Father Joseph goes to the meeting on Wednesday night rather than jump to conclusions based on ignorants comments made by people without class. I also believe that any judgements or acts done by Fr. Joseph were all made in good faith and were all made for the benefit of the Church and the Archdiocese and fellow parishioners, not for selfish needs. Shame on anyone who believes otherwise.
Respectfully,
Shakeeb Mazer
Fr. Joseph is a man of respect, loyalty, honesty and pure love and it confuses me how anyone in their right state of mind can talk so negatively and so disrepectfully about Fr. Joseph, the man who has led us through hardship and suffering, through happiness and through joy and has served in the Archdiocese for so many years. Not once has he ever failed us and not once have we or will we ever question him. We will NOT tolerate or allow someone as ignorant of men as George Samra and David Thomas to talk of things they do not know of nor will we ever believe the false accusations that they have made against Father Joseph. I only hope and pray that anyone who has read these postings against Fr. Joseph do not take them to heart or be naive. I only hope that everyone sees through these lies and realizes that they are trying to manipulate the minds of the parishioners in an effort to turn them against Fr. Joseph.
Wherever Fr. Joseph goes, my family and I will follow. We truly respect and support Fr. Joseph. May God bless him and give him the strength to remain the kind, innocent and loving man that he is. I also pray that anyone that doubts Father Joseph goes to the meeting on Wednesday night rather than jump to conclusions based on ignorants comments made by people without class. I also believe that any judgements or acts done by Fr. Joseph were all made in good faith and were all made for the benefit of the Church and the Archdiocese and fellow parishioners, not for selfish needs. Shame on anyone who believes otherwise.
Respectfully,
Shakeeb Mazer
#23
Shakeeb Mazer
on
2009-08-22 19:05
Shakeeb Mazer wrote pertaining to Fr. Joseph:
"not once have we or will we ever question him."
My dear Shakeeb, I respect your loyalty to your beloved priest, but the fact that you and other state you will NEVER question him, is a bit frightening. I love my parents, and would do anything for them, and other family members (or people whom I feel are as close as family) and yet I would not say I have never nor would EVER question them. The only one we should NEVER question is Christ, and yet even questioning Jesus is part of Christian tradition. (look at Thomas, Peter, even Paul all questioned God...(Paul's thorn in the flesh for example). Perhaps you didn't mean it as it sounded, and that you meant you would not question him with "proof", that's understandable. However it came across as meaning you would NEVER question your priest under any circumstances whatsoever. Hopefully you can clarify what you meant for those of us far removed from what if going on in your parish.
"not once have we or will we ever question him."
My dear Shakeeb, I respect your loyalty to your beloved priest, but the fact that you and other state you will NEVER question him, is a bit frightening. I love my parents, and would do anything for them, and other family members (or people whom I feel are as close as family) and yet I would not say I have never nor would EVER question them. The only one we should NEVER question is Christ, and yet even questioning Jesus is part of Christian tradition. (look at Thomas, Peter, even Paul all questioned God...(Paul's thorn in the flesh for example). Perhaps you didn't mean it as it sounded, and that you meant you would not question him with "proof", that's understandable. However it came across as meaning you would NEVER question your priest under any circumstances whatsoever. Hopefully you can clarify what you meant for those of us far removed from what if going on in your parish.
#23.1
Chuck Shingledecker
on
2009-08-23 08:13
As a young parishioner of St. George Church in Troy, i feel that this whole thing is ridiculous. I was taught by Fr. Joseph that we come to church to worship God. I feel that everyone is letting this come between them and letting this situation break up what was and still is a beautiful church. I was raised in this church and i wouldnt trade it for the world. We are all childern of God and should all treat each other as one. Although I don't know this whole situation in detail i do know that everyone who is involved in this has their heart in our church. The last thing i want to see is this church fall apart over something like this. Please every one of St. George remember that we come to church for one reason and that is God, we are not here to fight with one another. May God Bless Fr. Joseph, Fr. Ayaman and all of the parishioners of St. George. I hope that this matter will be resolved calmly and quickly.
#24
Rachel
on
2009-08-22 19:25
I have had occasion to attend a small Indian Methodist Church recently. They are a poor church in $, but they have their bank statements pinned to the bulletin board in the entry way. Not only are the open and visible to all the members of the church but every visitor who comes in the door.
I was surprised at first, but it seems quite reasonable to me as Christians, our finances should be totally open, just as our lives should be.
I was surprised at first, but it seems quite reasonable to me as Christians, our finances should be totally open, just as our lives should be.
#25
Michael Bauman
on
2009-08-22 21:12
I have found reading all the above comments to be quite interesting and disappointing, because the parishioners of St. George have not learned anything from what has happen to others. Here you have one faction that is promoting open transparency of the church's finances and the other faction demanding that everyone accept everything as is, because they are being told to just accept it, and they actually believe it. Talk about naive people, people in denial, and drinking the 'kool-aid' by the bucket loads, because they were/are being treated 'nice' and 'kindly' by those who want to keep things just as they are.
As being the treasurer of a church for a number of years, if I had come into the treasurer's position and found something like what is being exposed/presented here, I would have 'blown the whistle' too. Folks, there is a old saying, "where there is smoke, there is probably a fire"! Just refer to what happened in the OCA. Hello folks, do you see any kind of a like resemblance or like patterns here? In our local Orthodox parish that I belong to, that I am the treasurer for, the financial records are all audited twice a year, two signers are required on each check - out of five authorized signers, and the priest isn't one of them. Complete financial balance and income statements are provided to the church council at each and every monthly meeting, including a detailed listing of the check register. The entire church is provided a semi-annual and annual balance and income financial statement for their review. Everyone knows where the church stands financially. No 'shell game' is being played and nothing financial is being hid from anyone. The church council can call for an audit at 'any' time, if they want to, in addition to the two already being done per year.
The OCA learned their lesson the hard way, and the pattern here looks very much the same. But don't take any of our experiences of what happened in the OCA as being a possible like situation in your own church. It is different for you, because… you are being told that everything is okay and the folks who are blowing the whistle are the evil ones. I remember the same basic words being said within the OCA not too long ago by those who are no longer in their positions today. For those of you at St. George who can see 'beyond the curtain', you must have and carry church liability insurance, right? We have our policy with Church Mutual Insurance Company. Ever hear of them? Well it just so happens that a risk report was just recently issued by them. I found it to be an excellent read. Take a read yourself and see if the 'shoe fits' regarding your situation. Please refer to: http://www.churchmutual.com/riskreporter/pdfs/RRSummer2009.pdf
As being the treasurer of a church for a number of years, if I had come into the treasurer's position and found something like what is being exposed/presented here, I would have 'blown the whistle' too. Folks, there is a old saying, "where there is smoke, there is probably a fire"! Just refer to what happened in the OCA. Hello folks, do you see any kind of a like resemblance or like patterns here? In our local Orthodox parish that I belong to, that I am the treasurer for, the financial records are all audited twice a year, two signers are required on each check - out of five authorized signers, and the priest isn't one of them. Complete financial balance and income statements are provided to the church council at each and every monthly meeting, including a detailed listing of the check register. The entire church is provided a semi-annual and annual balance and income financial statement for their review. Everyone knows where the church stands financially. No 'shell game' is being played and nothing financial is being hid from anyone. The church council can call for an audit at 'any' time, if they want to, in addition to the two already being done per year.
The OCA learned their lesson the hard way, and the pattern here looks very much the same. But don't take any of our experiences of what happened in the OCA as being a possible like situation in your own church. It is different for you, because… you are being told that everything is okay and the folks who are blowing the whistle are the evil ones. I remember the same basic words being said within the OCA not too long ago by those who are no longer in their positions today. For those of you at St. George who can see 'beyond the curtain', you must have and carry church liability insurance, right? We have our policy with Church Mutual Insurance Company. Ever hear of them? Well it just so happens that a risk report was just recently issued by them. I found it to be an excellent read. Take a read yourself and see if the 'shoe fits' regarding your situation. Please refer to: http://www.churchmutual.com/riskreporter/pdfs/RRSummer2009.pdf
#26
DHH
on
2009-08-22 21:56
An audit does not an accusation make.
A question does not a liar make.
A question does not a liar make.
I wonder if Bp. Mark will step in. This could get very interesting...
#28
Gabriel
on
2009-08-23 01:01
After reading some of the emails defending Fr. A. et al, and the threats by parish members, I would fear going to the next meeting of their parish council, asking for audit. It sounds like this will be similar to the convention where the thugs come out in force and will intimidate people who merely want an explanation of where the money is going, why a dead woman signed checks and who approved refinancing of the towers for $5,850,000. It would probably be a good idea to have police in the area. No, I am not overreacting. I am sure HUD would be very interested in the management of the Towers.
#29
anon
on
2009-08-23 05:45
I agree. Until the secular authorities are involved it is quite apparent that Phillip... will continue to act with impunity, seemingly from some delusional notion that they are above the law of the land.
May God, St. Michael, and all the Hosts of Heaven protect the servant George Samra now and in the days to come.
May God, St. Michael, and all the Hosts of Heaven protect the servant George Samra now and in the days to come.
#29.1
Heracleides
on
2009-08-23 13:29
many people are upset at the way this has been handled by george samira and david thomas. first off, the council never objected to an audit because it never ever was brought up. the first time it was mentioned was in an email letter to people filled with accusations. is this the proper way to address a so called problem?
it is a shame that they continue to besmirch the integrity of our church priest and council as they have done for years and years. also, you ask if bishop mark is involved? yes, he met with geroge samra a day before this mass email was sent out! did he encourage george and david to take concerns to the council? NO. did he call the church to see what is going on? NO did he call fr. joseph out of concern? NO. he is in on the whole deal and has tried to orchestrate it from afar. a few years ago when david was doing these same acts, when bishop mark found out about it, he encourage david to meet with the priest and discuss the diffferences. this led to fr. antypas appointing him to the council. this time, bishop mark didnt do the least of what he should have done. this is a ploy against us arabs in our church under a generated facade of money impropriety.
it is a shame that they continue to besmirch the integrity of our church priest and council as they have done for years and years. also, you ask if bishop mark is involved? yes, he met with geroge samra a day before this mass email was sent out! did he encourage george and david to take concerns to the council? NO. did he call the church to see what is going on? NO did he call fr. joseph out of concern? NO. he is in on the whole deal and has tried to orchestrate it from afar. a few years ago when david was doing these same acts, when bishop mark found out about it, he encourage david to meet with the priest and discuss the diffferences. this led to fr. antypas appointing him to the council. this time, bishop mark didnt do the least of what he should have done. this is a ploy against us arabs in our church under a generated facade of money impropriety.
#30
Fakhoury
on
2009-08-23 06:03
Regarding Walid Khalife, though his actions may be abrupt at times, his heart is with St George and he is the cornerstone and pillar of our Church.
The above statement came from Mr. Norgrove the Parish Council President of St. George. I do not believe he has mis-spoke. Of course we do not know if a gun was being held to his head at the time of this signed confession....?
I am looking forward to hearing the results of the upcoming parish council meeting. Hopefully a metal detector will be installed at the hall door along with a reputable scecurity firm to monitor the proceedings.
Oh and of course if you have any catechumens make sure they have front row seats at this get together, so they can observe first hand the pillar and cornerstone of their newly found faith.
The above statement came from Mr. Norgrove the Parish Council President of St. George. I do not believe he has mis-spoke. Of course we do not know if a gun was being held to his head at the time of this signed confession....?
I am looking forward to hearing the results of the upcoming parish council meeting. Hopefully a metal detector will be installed at the hall door along with a reputable scecurity firm to monitor the proceedings.
Oh and of course if you have any catechumens make sure they have front row seats at this get together, so they can observe first hand the pillar and cornerstone of their newly found faith.
#31
Kevin Kirwan
on
2009-08-23 07:45
Last comment was pretty funny, but sad. I don't understand however why people have resentment towards any parish that contains ethnic priests, especially those that are close to PHILIP. This is truly evil. I pray the Metropolitan handles this well as well as Fr. Joseph. Fr. Joseph is a great priest and teacher. His success and personal financial situation is a real test to any laity or clergy because it makes them jealous. Do we really know, he could have inherited his finances or even did wise investments. He can do whatever he wants with his personal finance because he is a human being and is allowed. We shall not judge and i guarantee these false accusations are exactly what they are "FALSE". People have axes to grind and they are trying their best. Wolves always go after sheep, in this case, MP+ PHILIP's sheep.
God grant the clergy, parish of St. George many years and good health as well as Metropolitan PHILIP. Don't see little +MARK doing anything as usual except get himself bouncers to protect him from nothing.
God grant the clergy, parish of St. George many years and good health as well as Metropolitan PHILIP. Don't see little +MARK doing anything as usual except get himself bouncers to protect him from nothing.
#31.1
William
on
2009-08-24 09:17
Looks like Mr Norgrove is really mixed up when he (reportedly) stated "Regarding Walid Khalife, though his actions may be abrupt at times, his heart is with St George and he is the cornerstone and pillar of our Church."
Seems to me that Jesus Christ is the cornerstone of the church.
Seems to me that Jesus Christ is the cornerstone of the church.
#31.2
Yanni
on
2009-08-24 11:25
Hopefully, all this can begin to clear up when George Samra and others are allowed to ask questions regarding the finances
AND
Receive answers with ALL THE PROPER DOCUMENTATION.
If Fr Joe deflects the issues by handling it as a personal attack. He will go into a
Great Litany of
Did I not do this . . . . 100 times as MP did at the Convention
the meeting will need to remain focused on the issues, not on the personalities!!!!!!
If the Towers were audited, by whom?
Was it completely independent or by relatives of the current leadership or management company? Neither would be independent!!!!!
Ask George to document his concerns as well!!!
If he needs documentation to address his concerns then provide it!!!!
When we are talking about finances there is always a paper trail!!!!
That is unless we are not following acceptable procedures in the first place!
Are three people counting the cash on Sundays?
Are we using multiple copies of Deposit Slips and placing funds in a secure place for deposit.
No one should have access to change the deposit tickets.
Including changing figures from cash to checks as some people have given checks for cash to get IRS deductions illegally.
If there are not good safeguards in place, let us put them in place to protect the church and your own personal integrity.
Anyone against safeguards may have something to hide!
AND
Receive answers with ALL THE PROPER DOCUMENTATION.
If Fr Joe deflects the issues by handling it as a personal attack. He will go into a
Great Litany of
Did I not do this . . . . 100 times as MP did at the Convention
the meeting will need to remain focused on the issues, not on the personalities!!!!!!
If the Towers were audited, by whom?
Was it completely independent or by relatives of the current leadership or management company? Neither would be independent!!!!!
Ask George to document his concerns as well!!!
If he needs documentation to address his concerns then provide it!!!!
When we are talking about finances there is always a paper trail!!!!
That is unless we are not following acceptable procedures in the first place!
Are three people counting the cash on Sundays?
Are we using multiple copies of Deposit Slips and placing funds in a secure place for deposit.
No one should have access to change the deposit tickets.
Including changing figures from cash to checks as some people have given checks for cash to get IRS deductions illegally.
If there are not good safeguards in place, let us put them in place to protect the church and your own personal integrity.
Anyone against safeguards may have something to hide!
#32
Anonymous
on
2009-08-23 08:39
I want to try and understand the seemingly unexplainable expressions of support for Father Antypas (and of Metropolitan Philip in The Antiochian). If I may advance the following hypothesis.
1. Most of the expressions of support seem to be coming from folks of Syrian and Lebanese descent. This is not to say that the division is ethnic per se: many critics also have the same background.
2. In the old country, Christians are little islands in the vast Muslim ocean. It is important not to let the Muslims have any excuse to put you further down.
3. Similarly, tribal and family reputation is to be guarded at all costs. Bottom line: Do not wash your dirty laundry in public.
4. In the Middle East, leaders are honored because they represent so much more than themselves. Attacking a leader is never a personal thing; you are bound to be perceived as attacking the nation, tribe and family.
5. The expressions of cultish devotion to the leader or the demonization of his opponents are two sides of the same coin. This coin's main component is the instinct for survival and it is no wonder that we are seeing such extreme reactions.
1. Most of the expressions of support seem to be coming from folks of Syrian and Lebanese descent. This is not to say that the division is ethnic per se: many critics also have the same background.
2. In the old country, Christians are little islands in the vast Muslim ocean. It is important not to let the Muslims have any excuse to put you further down.
3. Similarly, tribal and family reputation is to be guarded at all costs. Bottom line: Do not wash your dirty laundry in public.
4. In the Middle East, leaders are honored because they represent so much more than themselves. Attacking a leader is never a personal thing; you are bound to be perceived as attacking the nation, tribe and family.
5. The expressions of cultish devotion to the leader or the demonization of his opponents are two sides of the same coin. This coin's main component is the instinct for survival and it is no wonder that we are seeing such extreme reactions.
#33
Carl
on
2009-08-23 09:37
I think Carl is definitely on to something...particularly with #5.
It strikes me as odd that while Samra is simply stating what he claims to be facts and seems to be making no personal allegations, everyone here is rushing to defend what by all appearances is "our dear leader." In other words: "we refuse to believe..." or "It cannot possibly be true of our devoted father Joseph..." or "We will not stand for these lies" as opposed to simply saying: "Let's let the facts be known."
This in addition to the venom being directed at the treasurer, I think reveals an endemic problem. St. George's is clearly a microcosm of the whole archdiocese.
Where I still a part of the AOCNA (I left a few years ago for geographic reasons mostly), this would be just about the last straw.
It strikes me as odd that while Samra is simply stating what he claims to be facts and seems to be making no personal allegations, everyone here is rushing to defend what by all appearances is "our dear leader." In other words: "we refuse to believe..." or "It cannot possibly be true of our devoted father Joseph..." or "We will not stand for these lies" as opposed to simply saying: "Let's let the facts be known."
This in addition to the venom being directed at the treasurer, I think reveals an endemic problem. St. George's is clearly a microcosm of the whole archdiocese.
Where I still a part of the AOCNA (I left a few years ago for geographic reasons mostly), this would be just about the last straw.
#33.1
irenaios
on
2009-08-24 08:05
how long are the people of st. george going to endure these vicious attacks on our priest by these two people. they should just pack up and leave. however, fr. joseph has got to be the man with the biggest heart. his sermon was outstanding today and im glad that george and david were there to hear it. hopefully his words will resonate in their heads. ....
#34
Anonymous
on
2009-08-23 10:21
Quoting Neal Norgrove in his letter: "Regarding Walid Khalife, though his actions may be abrupt at times, his heart is with St George and he is the cornerstone and pillar of our Church."
This is indeed a surprise; for 2000 years Christians have been told that Christ is the cornerstone and pillar of The Church. This explains a lot of what is wrong with the AONA and OCA, we've all been worshipping the wrong person...
LORD have mercy!
This is indeed a surprise; for 2000 years Christians have been told that Christ is the cornerstone and pillar of The Church. This explains a lot of what is wrong with the AONA and OCA, we've all been worshipping the wrong person...
LORD have mercy!
#35
FR.BLUES
on
2009-08-23 14:29
A number of parishioners who have posted to this thread have understandably found these allegations to be upsetting. For the record, I have not to the best of my knowledge met any of these persons in my life, so I have no idea as to the personal character of any one involved.
I am sure that everyone here, our editor included, would advise against rushing to judgment in this. However, sin is deceitful, otherwise there would have been no need for the author of Hebrews to warn us against it (3:13). How many parents who believe that "MY child would NEVER ...." wind up at the principal's office or police station afterward to deal with some infraction or other? I'm sure Father Joe enjoys an outstanding reputation with many people - but so have many Catholic priests who have later been disgraced for one reason or another.
Judas lived in the direct presence of our Lord for three years, yet his lust for money led him not only to help himself to the disciples' funds (John 12:4-6), but to betray our Lord to His death. Apostle Paul warns us to "let him that thinketh he stand take heed lest he fall" (1 Corinthians 10:12).
What we need to be concerned with here is not the apparent reputation of any individual, but with the facts before us. We all need to be asking, "Cui bono?", i.e., what does any one particular person gain from this? What do George Samra and David Thomas have to gain from asking the questions they have? What does Father Joe have to gain from preventing an audit?
The truth can be painful, but to ignore all this will prove far more painful. If there is a boil, let us lance it now so that healing can come.
I am sure that everyone here, our editor included, would advise against rushing to judgment in this. However, sin is deceitful, otherwise there would have been no need for the author of Hebrews to warn us against it (3:13). How many parents who believe that "MY child would NEVER ...." wind up at the principal's office or police station afterward to deal with some infraction or other? I'm sure Father Joe enjoys an outstanding reputation with many people - but so have many Catholic priests who have later been disgraced for one reason or another.
Judas lived in the direct presence of our Lord for three years, yet his lust for money led him not only to help himself to the disciples' funds (John 12:4-6), but to betray our Lord to His death. Apostle Paul warns us to "let him that thinketh he stand take heed lest he fall" (1 Corinthians 10:12).
What we need to be concerned with here is not the apparent reputation of any individual, but with the facts before us. We all need to be asking, "Cui bono?", i.e., what does any one particular person gain from this? What do George Samra and David Thomas have to gain from asking the questions they have? What does Father Joe have to gain from preventing an audit?
The truth can be painful, but to ignore all this will prove far more painful. If there is a boil, let us lance it now so that healing can come.
#36
Edmund
on
2009-08-23 14:45
Well, well, well. Why am I not surprised at the whistle-blowers allegations, and the vitriol extended by the +Phillip apparatchiks?
If the allegations aren't true, then there's no reason not to have an external audit now is there.
Oh and Issmat Simon Nasr et al, I've always been using my real name and I'm right where I've always been, but I'm talking to ROCOR so you'd just be wasting your time.
If the allegations aren't true, then there's no reason not to have an external audit now is there.
Oh and Issmat Simon Nasr et al, I've always been using my real name and I'm right where I've always been, but I'm talking to ROCOR so you'd just be wasting your time.
#37
Kevin Klein
on
2009-08-23 17:35
"Wherever Fr. Joseph goes, my family and I will follow." (quoted from a comment above)
Wow! Here we go again with the "cult" thing. "Put not your trust in princes and in sons of men." Follow Christ, the rest will take care of itself.
I've re-read the so-called "accusation" letter...the one in which George Samra says he is asking questions and not accusing anyone.
Then I read the hate-filled responses in which not one explanation or answer is given for the questions asked.
It doesn't take a genius to figure this out.
Signed: Someone outside of Detroit who doesn't care a hoot that you want my name.
Wow! Here we go again with the "cult" thing. "Put not your trust in princes and in sons of men." Follow Christ, the rest will take care of itself.
I've re-read the so-called "accusation" letter...the one in which George Samra says he is asking questions and not accusing anyone.
Then I read the hate-filled responses in which not one explanation or answer is given for the questions asked.
It doesn't take a genius to figure this out.
Signed: Someone outside of Detroit who doesn't care a hoot that you want my name.
#38
Name withheld so as not to give you the pleasure of threatening me
on
2009-08-23 19:08
Dear friends and supporters of Fr. Joe,
I actually like your letters in which you express your love for him as a pastor. I think this shows something good. I do want to point out a couple of things though:
1. No one, from what I have read, is accusing anyone of anything. At worst there may be an implication (given what questions were asked) that the bylaws were not followed very well. That is a lot different from people embezzling or something like that.
2. The best way to prove the "accusers" to be what they are (as you see it) is through an independent audit. Should this show that no one has been profiting from Church money you would feel pretty good and people who (as you see it) have been making "accusations" would look pretty bad.
3. While I understand the emotion attached to this for you, the language you are using in your emails is undermining your case rather badly.
4. Audits are very common things for non-profits. They really are the norm, the standard. All kinds of churches have them all the time and there is no emotion attached to them. They are a fact of life with which we live. A well-run parish has audits.
I suggest that at the next meeting you folks insist on an audit in order to prove what you believe - that your leaders are upright, good, honest men, and that those other guys are making something out of nothing. Then it won't be you saying it, but an independent voice.
Try it!
I actually like your letters in which you express your love for him as a pastor. I think this shows something good. I do want to point out a couple of things though:
1. No one, from what I have read, is accusing anyone of anything. At worst there may be an implication (given what questions were asked) that the bylaws were not followed very well. That is a lot different from people embezzling or something like that.
2. The best way to prove the "accusers" to be what they are (as you see it) is through an independent audit. Should this show that no one has been profiting from Church money you would feel pretty good and people who (as you see it) have been making "accusations" would look pretty bad.
3. While I understand the emotion attached to this for you, the language you are using in your emails is undermining your case rather badly.
4. Audits are very common things for non-profits. They really are the norm, the standard. All kinds of churches have them all the time and there is no emotion attached to them. They are a fact of life with which we live. A well-run parish has audits.
I suggest that at the next meeting you folks insist on an audit in order to prove what you believe - that your leaders are upright, good, honest men, and that those other guys are making something out of nothing. Then it won't be you saying it, but an independent voice.
Try it!
#39
Marcel Herlé
on
2009-08-23 20:32
My name is Odeh Jahshan. There is not much left for me to add, but after have read these past comments, I would just like to say that I am outraged and very upset. What you have done, George Samra, is an unforgivable thing. You made many accusations and you made this matter public when you could have handled it differently. George Samra, you tried to make yourself look like a mature responsible person and Father Joseph Antypas like a criminal. Too bad you didn’t convince many people like me. I have been in St. George with Father Joseph Antypas for a while now and I have not seen anything but kindness, respect, and trustworthiness from him. Now I am hear to say that whatever ends up happening, my family and I will fully support Father Joseph Antypas. He is the priest of our church and we respect everything he says and does like we should. We also know that whatever he has done, he has accomplished it in honest intentions. May God be with you Fr. Antypas and your family.
Considerately,
Odeh Jahshan
Considerately,
Odeh Jahshan
#40
Odeh Jahshan
on
2009-08-23 21:58
Kind sibling in Christ, Odeh,
The only thing unforgivable is the sin against the Holy Spirit, and only God can decide that.
As for the response of the clergy and parish council, I do not know of their reaction, however the standard by which such a response is measured are the words of Our Lord:
Luke 6:35 But *love your enemies*, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return, and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he is kind to the ungrateful and the *evil*.
Dn. Marty
Martin D. Watt, CPA
Dayton, Ohio
The only thing unforgivable is the sin against the Holy Spirit, and only God can decide that.
As for the response of the clergy and parish council, I do not know of their reaction, however the standard by which such a response is measured are the words of Our Lord:
Luke 6:35 But *love your enemies*, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return, and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he is kind to the ungrateful and the *evil*.
Dn. Marty
Martin D. Watt, CPA
Dayton, Ohio
#40.1
Dn. Marty Watt
on
2009-08-24 09:31
i would like to say that yesterday fr. joseph had an outstanding sermon on forgiveness and allowed david and george to take communion. however, i would like to make something clear and that is that george had NEVER once asked or brought up a concern for audit or problems with finances before his mass email. he was way out of line in his approach. if he had questions or wanted an audit, he couldve expressed this in the parish council or to fr. joseph. instead he went around like a devious person and falsely accused our priest of financial improprieties. i applaud fr. joseph for his position and will support him no matter what happens. he is our priest and we love him.
#41
R.Salima
on
2009-08-24 07:40
it is not about a cult rallying around a leader that can do no wrong. it is about the truth. fr. joseph did not do anything wrong and as treasurer for the last 9 months, if there was anyhing inappropriate george should have brought it up...there is no excuse for it. you dont go and embarrass our church and the people of our council with outrageous statements without any backing or even addressing the concerns to the council or the priest. he sent out a mass email that basiclaly accuses the priest. and how foolish can he be to think that 1 million dollars can dissappear unnoticed for the last 20 years from any acocuntant, council member, or HUD. it is ludicrous to say the least....
#42
R. Salima
on
2009-08-24 08:01
I just have one question for R. Salima. You state that "fr. joseph did not do anything wrong". Please share with the rest of the readers of this website how you know this.
An educated person might say that the only way for someone to know this for sure would be for an independent financial audit to take place.
To all of the members of Fr. Antypas' parish, please consider one thing. Fr. Antypas is a human being like the rest of us.
An educated person might say that the only way for someone to know this for sure would be for an independent financial audit to take place.
To all of the members of Fr. Antypas' parish, please consider one thing. Fr. Antypas is a human being like the rest of us.
#42.1
Michael Corey
on
2009-08-24 11:52
How interesting to see calls for the head of a simple and God fearing messenger. So now the villians are those who ask for light to be shone in the dark corners?
I am sure the upcoming Parish Council will attempt to make itself a platform for praising the many accomplishments of Fr. Joe and his integrity. I imagine there will be the many choruses of how dare you, they, or anybody else accuse Fr. Joe, Walid Khalife or anybody else by simply asking for some clarity.
It can of course be all put to rest with Fr. Joe insisting that a complete and thourogh financial audit be conducted immediately and all questions about the many seeming financial improprieties be addressed forthrightly and honestly.
I'll place my bet on hurumphed outrage, further humiliation for those daring to ask for transparency, and absolutely no audit because...it's to expensive...completely unneccessary...it's an insult to our priest and blah...blah..blah..
I hope the good folks who are tired of the old corruption and hidden back room shenanigans do not lose heart and stay strong.
I am sure the upcoming Parish Council will attempt to make itself a platform for praising the many accomplishments of Fr. Joe and his integrity. I imagine there will be the many choruses of how dare you, they, or anybody else accuse Fr. Joe, Walid Khalife or anybody else by simply asking for some clarity.
It can of course be all put to rest with Fr. Joe insisting that a complete and thourogh financial audit be conducted immediately and all questions about the many seeming financial improprieties be addressed forthrightly and honestly.
I'll place my bet on hurumphed outrage, further humiliation for those daring to ask for transparency, and absolutely no audit because...it's to expensive...completely unneccessary...it's an insult to our priest and blah...blah..blah..
I hope the good folks who are tired of the old corruption and hidden back room shenanigans do not lose heart and stay strong.
#43
Kevin Kirwan
on
2009-08-24 09:13
i also would like to add my voice of support to the clergy and parishioners of st. george. i am dumb-founded at what george and david have done yet again. it seems as a recurrent theme, especially with david, to look for some problem within our community so that fr. joseph would leave. david-- fr. has tried with you so many times. he has met with you many times. he has appointed you to the council. im sorry to say, you have failed me. if you were to run for the council, you would never make it because the people of dont like the mud-sliging that you and george have done.
More importantly, this seems to be a theme that is stemming, not because of finance issues at st. george, but because of the movement by bishop mark to have audits at the archdiocesean level. I know he has a part to do with this. Just to be clear, i dont think that fr would have any problem with audits of the church. there is nothing to hide. all books and financial reports are available. the question is why would we want to spend money on an audit when that money can go for something important rather than to waste money on two people's fantasy and false statements. if this was brought up at our meeting on wednesday i will speak boldy that i wouldnt support it because i dont want to see the money that i give to church wasted on a foolish thing, especially when we dont suspect a single problem. likewise, if goerge really felt there was a legitimate problem, he couldve mentioned it many months ago, rather than his sensational way of doing it.
i want to see my money going to our building fund, our charities and programs. not for a stupid audit that isnt necessary....just because mr. treasurer makes false statemtns doest mean we have to follow through on what he says.
More importantly, this seems to be a theme that is stemming, not because of finance issues at st. george, but because of the movement by bishop mark to have audits at the archdiocesean level. I know he has a part to do with this. Just to be clear, i dont think that fr would have any problem with audits of the church. there is nothing to hide. all books and financial reports are available. the question is why would we want to spend money on an audit when that money can go for something important rather than to waste money on two people's fantasy and false statements. if this was brought up at our meeting on wednesday i will speak boldy that i wouldnt support it because i dont want to see the money that i give to church wasted on a foolish thing, especially when we dont suspect a single problem. likewise, if goerge really felt there was a legitimate problem, he couldve mentioned it many months ago, rather than his sensational way of doing it.
i want to see my money going to our building fund, our charities and programs. not for a stupid audit that isnt necessary....just because mr. treasurer makes false statemtns doest mean we have to follow through on what he says.
#44
Sherry F
on
2009-08-24 11:23
False statements?
How do you know that the statements are false?
Seems to me that stating that checks have been written with a deceased person's signature (maybe a forged signature?) on them would be evidence that there is something wrong going on.
As a former treasurer of a parish, I can state that financial questions can often be asked and answered by simply taking a look at the checkbook.
Regarding the other concerns, for instance the $5 million dollars, etc., a few questions and good answers from those in positions of responsibility should clear the air (hopefully).
The problem is here, that many people are concerned that the questions/statements cast a bad image on those in positions of trust. If the problems are not solved with candid and open investigation, then the situation will never change, suspicion and unrest will always be under the surface of parish finances and dealings.
Lord have mercy.
How do you know that the statements are false?
Seems to me that stating that checks have been written with a deceased person's signature (maybe a forged signature?) on them would be evidence that there is something wrong going on.
As a former treasurer of a parish, I can state that financial questions can often be asked and answered by simply taking a look at the checkbook.
Regarding the other concerns, for instance the $5 million dollars, etc., a few questions and good answers from those in positions of responsibility should clear the air (hopefully).
The problem is here, that many people are concerned that the questions/statements cast a bad image on those in positions of trust. If the problems are not solved with candid and open investigation, then the situation will never change, suspicion and unrest will always be under the surface of parish finances and dealings.
Lord have mercy.
#44.1
Yanni
on
2009-08-25 21:05
Kevin Kirwan,
You just dont get it. why waste people's hard earned money that they donate to church on an audit based on no reason!! It is a waste of money. In our economic climate, we cannot throw away good money on fantasy and lies!! If a vote were to come up, I will oppose. I rather see my money go to good use. Im sorry George and David---your 15 minutes are up.
You just dont get it. why waste people's hard earned money that they donate to church on an audit based on no reason!! It is a waste of money. In our economic climate, we cannot throw away good money on fantasy and lies!! If a vote were to come up, I will oppose. I rather see my money go to good use. Im sorry George and David---your 15 minutes are up.
#45
R. Salima
on
2009-08-24 11:55
If it was my hard-earned money, I would expect and demand complete transparency. I do not put my trust in princes, in sons of men, in whom there is no salvation. YMMV.
#45.1
Scott Walker
on
2009-08-25 11:50
why the heck would we push the council for an audit if it isnt necessary. the council has no problem with the finances. the parish has no problems with finances. the only concerns come from two trouble makers whimsical ideas. if my memory is correct, george has been our treasurer for almost 1 year...why are we hearing this now? why has he not mentioned anything at our meetings the last 12 months? isnt it kinda funny that this audit thing comes up when select few are trying to push it on the archdiocese...hmmm??? wonder whos behind it?!?!?
#46
Najeeb K
on
2009-08-24 12:36
why the heck would we push the council for an audit if it isnt necessary.
Ummm...and how would you know without an audit? It's an insurance policy gentlemen...you don't buy it AFTER your accident.
It's standard practice here in America for charitable groups to have absolute fiscal transparency. The AOCNA needs to get with the program. IT IS NECESSARY.
You realize, of course, that it LOOKS like you are hiding something, right? We are told to avoid the very appearance of evil. Have an audit and that will shut up the "evil" men making "accusations."
Do it....I dare you.
Ummm...and how would you know without an audit? It's an insurance policy gentlemen...you don't buy it AFTER your accident.
It's standard practice here in America for charitable groups to have absolute fiscal transparency. The AOCNA needs to get with the program. IT IS NECESSARY.
You realize, of course, that it LOOKS like you are hiding something, right? We are told to avoid the very appearance of evil. Have an audit and that will shut up the "evil" men making "accusations."
Do it....I dare you.
#46.1
irenaios
on
2009-08-24 15:49
Once again, No One has made accusations.
Certainly, this will the tactic to play the loyalty card !
How could anyone make these accusations against Fr Joseph?
Once again, it is NOT ABOUT FR JOSEPH or IS IT ALL ABOUT FR JOSEPH?
No accusations have been made, but this will be the ploy to derail an audit or any true accountability!!!!!!!!!
Certainly, this will the tactic to play the loyalty card !
How could anyone make these accusations against Fr Joseph?
Once again, it is NOT ABOUT FR JOSEPH or IS IT ALL ABOUT FR JOSEPH?
No accusations have been made, but this will be the ploy to derail an audit or any true accountability!!!!!!!!!
#46.1.1
Anonymous
on
2009-08-24 18:24
Now a sudden intrest in fiscal responsibility? You dare not conduct an audit because it is wasteful or unneccessary spending?
This coming from the same folks who love national conventions in Palm Springs, throw lavish banquets to honor each other and spend literally tens, even hundreds of thousands of dollars on religious articles and ornate vestments including kingly crowns for their clerics seems a wee bit disingenuous.
The touching concern for the poor and not wasting precious commodities is duly noted. Which one of Christ's own disciples expressed his own dismay at some so called wasteful spending? What inspired his seemingly pious objection? I suspect similar rationalizations are being offered here and for the same reason.
Looks like the wagons are being circled in Troy and maybe a good old fashion lynching of the varmit George Samara will be following refreshments at the upcoming meeting.
This coming from the same folks who love national conventions in Palm Springs, throw lavish banquets to honor each other and spend literally tens, even hundreds of thousands of dollars on religious articles and ornate vestments including kingly crowns for their clerics seems a wee bit disingenuous.
The touching concern for the poor and not wasting precious commodities is duly noted. Which one of Christ's own disciples expressed his own dismay at some so called wasteful spending? What inspired his seemingly pious objection? I suspect similar rationalizations are being offered here and for the same reason.
Looks like the wagons are being circled in Troy and maybe a good old fashion lynching of the varmit George Samara will be following refreshments at the upcoming meeting.
#47
Kevin Kirwan
on
2009-08-24 14:04
"i would like to say that yesterday fr. joseph had an outstanding sermon on forgiveness and allowed david and george to take communion."
How thoughtful of him.
If David and George aren't excommunicated and are otherwise in good standing, I'd pretty much expect them to be able to take communion. But given what has happened over the last several months, maybe we shouldn't take these kinds of things for granted.
How thoughtful of him.
If David and George aren't excommunicated and are otherwise in good standing, I'd pretty much expect them to be able to take communion. But given what has happened over the last several months, maybe we shouldn't take these kinds of things for granted.
#48
Gadfly for Christ
on
2009-08-24 14:20
george samira's actions are just despicable. although it is difficult, we should condemn the sin not the sinner. i am embarrassed for his entire family and all that know him. if i were him, i would crawl into a hole and not show my face after the embarrassment he has attempted to put our beloved St. George through.
George, let me say that you claim you are doing things on behalf of constituents. as a member of the parish, i can say that no constituents are happy with the garbage that you made up and spewed. i am disgusted by your actions.
George, let me say that you claim you are doing things on behalf of constituents. as a member of the parish, i can say that no constituents are happy with the garbage that you made up and spewed. i am disgusted by your actions.
#49
Anonymous
on
2009-08-24 14:24
What motive does he have to make such things up?
#49.1
Gabriel
on
2009-08-25 00:29
Fr. Joe uses the bully pulpit and gives a sermon on forgiveness. Highlighting his own merciful benevolence he then communes those he had no right to excommunicate for merely suggesting some financial irregularities be examined.
I am surprised choruses of many years did not erupt extolling the magnanimous gesture. It's good to be king.
I suspect despite the assertion of anonymous there are some "constituents" that are saying about time someone with a little backbone question the murky financial dealings involving their parish.
I know George Samara, and David Thomas may never hear this sung to them in Troy so let me say it now. God grant you the servants of Christ George and David, life, health and length of days and all those with you who seek justice for the good of Christ's Holy Church.
I am surprised choruses of many years did not erupt extolling the magnanimous gesture. It's good to be king.
I suspect despite the assertion of anonymous there are some "constituents" that are saying about time someone with a little backbone question the murky financial dealings involving their parish.
I know George Samara, and David Thomas may never hear this sung to them in Troy so let me say it now. God grant you the servants of Christ George and David, life, health and length of days and all those with you who seek justice for the good of Christ's Holy Church.
#50
Kevin Kirwan
on
2009-08-25 07:14
i personally feel that an audit is a waste of our church money. however, if fr. joseph or the parish council feel that we should have an audit, then my thought is that the raising of such funds should not interfere in our church projects that we have thus far committed to. furthermore, if the audit is to take place, funds should be raised before such occurs, and it must be put to vote by the parish at our general parish meeting. the actions of two indiivduals cannot force this upon all of us.
fr joseph and parish council, i ask that you do not condone the actions of these two gentleman and waste our money on an audit. however, if you support it, father, then i will go along provided that those conditions are met. i trust your judgement.
fr joseph and parish council, i ask that you do not condone the actions of these two gentleman and waste our money on an audit. however, if you support it, father, then i will go along provided that those conditions are met. i trust your judgement.
#51
K Kilamati
on
2009-08-25 07:23
Every parish should have some form of an audit. If you do not do it, my guess is local TV news investigators may assist you in doing it. Given Fadi's (isn't he on the parish council and also a convicted felon?) recent run in with the news, my guess is the newscaster who had the traffic cone thrown at him by Fadi would LOVE to follow the leads in Troy right now. Let's find out.
It's time.
It's time.
#51.1
irenaios
on
2009-08-25 08:06
Aren't you who are so blindly devoted to your leadership just the LEAST bit interested in WHO has been signing checks in the name of someone who's been dead for two years?!?!?
This act seems to me to be the real issues to be disgusted by...and it would also seem to be something that could be easily disproved or proved, right?
Surely some of you care about this, right?
Unless you are really in a cult.
This act seems to me to be the real issues to be disgusted by...and it would also seem to be something that could be easily disproved or proved, right?
Surely some of you care about this, right?
Unless you are really in a cult.
#51.2
markw
on
2009-08-25 08:41
not really interested in fabricated nonsense nor am i willing to submit to have my money wasted on some audit that can go to the many projects that our church is involved in. if the audit is what our priest wants and our council wants, i will only vote for it if it does not take away from the missions and projects that we are currently committed to.
what a waste!!!
what a waste!!!
#51.2.1
R Salima
on
2009-08-26 07:40
Kevin,
you continue to miss the point. were you sitting in on fr. joes sermon this past sunday? were you present there to see whether or not he was bullying anyone from the pulpit? are you a member of our parish? do you know george and david and know their history in our parish? if the answers to anyone of these questions is no, then keep your cynical comments and judgement about our priest to yourself. you dont know fr. joseph or the situation that these people have put our church in. before you pass juedgment on our priest or bust out in praise of those two people, learn what is going on. if you like controversy, as i suspect you do from your many posts on theantiochian and here, go and point out wrong doings and problems at your own church. or better yet why dont you go form your own church with david and george and leave our alone.
you continue to miss the point. were you sitting in on fr. joes sermon this past sunday? were you present there to see whether or not he was bullying anyone from the pulpit? are you a member of our parish? do you know george and david and know their history in our parish? if the answers to anyone of these questions is no, then keep your cynical comments and judgement about our priest to yourself. you dont know fr. joseph or the situation that these people have put our church in. before you pass juedgment on our priest or bust out in praise of those two people, learn what is going on. if you like controversy, as i suspect you do from your many posts on theantiochian and here, go and point out wrong doings and problems at your own church. or better yet why dont you go form your own church with david and george and leave our alone.
#52
K Kilamati
on
2009-08-25 08:13
While Kevin may be missing the point, so are you Kilamati.
You are right that few of us personally know the people involved (well we know some thanks to the news and police records). But here is what we do know:
Accusations of financial irregularities have been made and it is well within the duties of a treasurer to bring these issues up. He apparently tried and was shut down. These would appear to be serious enough irregularities to warrant LEGAL investigation. Who exactly has been signing checks in the name of Ilhamie Hackem?
Don't you care enough about your Parish to want to know the truth of this matter??!?!?!?
If you want to direct you anger toward the accusers than the best way to do that is to prove their accusations are false and baseless. Only one way to do that my friend.
With the press you are beginning to get, I would advise you get that audit done as soon as possible because the press alone will cost you far more. Oh...and by the way...this makes Orthodoxy look bad too...so we all have a vested interest in the TRUTH here.
http://www.detnews.com/article/20090825/METRO02/908250352/1409/METRO/Troy-church-finances-debated
It simply doesn't look good to have felons as you "pillar and cornerstone" or on your Parish Council...especially one that was previously involved in charity fraud. One halfway decent investigative reporter will be all it takes to bust this whole thing wide open. Surely you don't want to see Fadi throwing traffic cones at cameras in the St. George parking lot!?!?! Or, God forbid, Whalid acting out upon his threat to use firearms in defense of his honor!
Time to clean house Kilamati. It's a good thing...it's a Christian thing, no? Sure it is. Open the books...let's see what's been going on. Who knows maybe you can prove the evil doing treasurer is the one who needs to be ashamed. (Personally, I rather doubt it...if so I suspect you'd already have your audit taking place.)
M
You are right that few of us personally know the people involved (well we know some thanks to the news and police records). But here is what we do know:
Accusations of financial irregularities have been made and it is well within the duties of a treasurer to bring these issues up. He apparently tried and was shut down. These would appear to be serious enough irregularities to warrant LEGAL investigation. Who exactly has been signing checks in the name of Ilhamie Hackem?
Don't you care enough about your Parish to want to know the truth of this matter??!?!?!?
If you want to direct you anger toward the accusers than the best way to do that is to prove their accusations are false and baseless. Only one way to do that my friend.
With the press you are beginning to get, I would advise you get that audit done as soon as possible because the press alone will cost you far more. Oh...and by the way...this makes Orthodoxy look bad too...so we all have a vested interest in the TRUTH here.
http://www.detnews.com/article/20090825/METRO02/908250352/1409/METRO/Troy-church-finances-debated
It simply doesn't look good to have felons as you "pillar and cornerstone" or on your Parish Council...especially one that was previously involved in charity fraud. One halfway decent investigative reporter will be all it takes to bust this whole thing wide open. Surely you don't want to see Fadi throwing traffic cones at cameras in the St. George parking lot!?!?! Or, God forbid, Whalid acting out upon his threat to use firearms in defense of his honor!
Time to clean house Kilamati. It's a good thing...it's a Christian thing, no? Sure it is. Open the books...let's see what's been going on. Who knows maybe you can prove the evil doing treasurer is the one who needs to be ashamed. (Personally, I rather doubt it...if so I suspect you'd already have your audit taking place.)
M
#52.1
markw
on
2009-08-26 07:39
K Kilamati,
Forgive me if I am misunderstanding something (and it is probably a minor matter). As part of your response to Kevin Kirwan's comment, you wrote
"were you sitting in on fr. joes sermon this past sunday? were you present there to see whether or not he was bullying anyone from the pulpit?"
I don't claim to know precisely Kevin's intended meaning, but I suggest you google or otherwise look up the phrase "bully pulpit". It does not mean 'to act like a bully when preaching from the pulpit.' No one has accused Fr. Joseph of being a bully.
I pray that the meeting in Troy tonight will bring about something positive rather than further strife, threats and name calling. May God bless their parish, council and priest.
Elizabeth
Forgive me if I am misunderstanding something (and it is probably a minor matter). As part of your response to Kevin Kirwan's comment, you wrote
"were you sitting in on fr. joes sermon this past sunday? were you present there to see whether or not he was bullying anyone from the pulpit?"
I don't claim to know precisely Kevin's intended meaning, but I suggest you google or otherwise look up the phrase "bully pulpit". It does not mean 'to act like a bully when preaching from the pulpit.' No one has accused Fr. Joseph of being a bully.
I pray that the meeting in Troy tonight will bring about something positive rather than further strife, threats and name calling. May God bless their parish, council and priest.
Elizabeth
#52.2
Elizabeth
on
2009-08-26 19:01
im sorry- i just went throufh the archives of this website- I have never seen people SOOOOO Jealous of one man!! You are all envious of Fr Joseph, its sickening!! Including you, Mr editor. You are jealous of his assets, Are you also Jealous his wife is better looking than all of yours? And that his children are Better looking and more succesful than yours? What else?? You people make me sick!!! Instead of worrying so much about what one person has because you DONT have it, focus on the things you do have and be grateful you have them!!!! Get a life, People!!! and stay out of HIS!!!
(Editor's note: Friend, Fr. Joseph is not the issue here, an audit it. No one is interested in his life or family, or assets - just the books of the parish - which are not his, but the parishes. Fr. Joseph, I am sure understands that, and the value for unity, transparency,accountability and tranquility in his parish an audit would provide. Or not. In either event, it is the parishs' choice.)
(Editor's note: Friend, Fr. Joseph is not the issue here, an audit it. No one is interested in his life or family, or assets - just the books of the parish - which are not his, but the parishes. Fr. Joseph, I am sure understands that, and the value for unity, transparency,accountability and tranquility in his parish an audit would provide. Or not. In either event, it is the parishs' choice.)
#53
Anonymous
on
2009-08-25 12:16
Everyone!
With all respect this is an internal issue for St. George - Troy, MI not for he internet to debate: EVERYONE MIND YOUR BUSINESS! and not interfer in cncerns of others!
With all respect this is an internal issue for St. George - Troy, MI not for he internet to debate: EVERYONE MIND YOUR BUSINESS! and not interfer in cncerns of others!
#54
Anonymous
on
2009-08-25 23:00
Wrong anonymous. Your dirty laundry is a stain upon the reputation of Christ's (not yours or mine of Fr. Joe's) and thus concerns us all. We demand you clean it up.
#54.1
irenaios
on
2009-08-26 18:11
or better yet why dont you go form your own church with david and george and leave our alone.
#52 K Kilamati on 2009-08-25 08:13
Been there, tried that. But thanks for the invite.
#52 K Kilamati on 2009-08-25 08:13
Been there, tried that. But thanks for the invite.
#55
Kevin Kirwan
on
2009-08-26 08:19
Dear Supporters of Fr. Joe,
If I might offer some constructive advice:
Your expressions of loyalty are fine, but how about some facts? I notice a lot of emotion, but nothing substantial is ever said. I see some very concrete things you can respond to - what about the dead lady's signatures? Shouldn't you offer an explanation? Ask Fr. Joe to explain it. If he is the wonderful man you say he is I am sure he will have a good and reasonable explanation. The abusive language some of you use simply convinces people that you have something to hide.
If I might offer some constructive advice:
Your expressions of loyalty are fine, but how about some facts? I notice a lot of emotion, but nothing substantial is ever said. I see some very concrete things you can respond to - what about the dead lady's signatures? Shouldn't you offer an explanation? Ask Fr. Joe to explain it. If he is the wonderful man you say he is I am sure he will have a good and reasonable explanation. The abusive language some of you use simply convinces people that you have something to hide.
#56
Marcel Herlé
on
2009-08-26 19:58
To whoever wrote this:
im sorry- i just went throufh the archives of this website- I have never seen people SOOOOO Jealous of one man!! You are all envious of Fr Joseph, its sickening!! Including you, Mr editor. You are jealous of his assets, Are you also Jealous his wife is better looking than all of yours? And that his children are Better looking and more succesful than yours? What else?? You people make me sick!!! Instead of worrying so much about what one person has because you DONT have it, focus on the things you do have and be grateful you have them!!!! Get a life, People!!! and stay out of HIS!!!
This is a joke right? I mean there's no possible way you're serious right?
im sorry- i just went throufh the archives of this website- I have never seen people SOOOOO Jealous of one man!! You are all envious of Fr Joseph, its sickening!! Including you, Mr editor. You are jealous of his assets, Are you also Jealous his wife is better looking than all of yours? And that his children are Better looking and more succesful than yours? What else?? You people make me sick!!! Instead of worrying so much about what one person has because you DONT have it, focus on the things you do have and be grateful you have them!!!! Get a life, People!!! and stay out of HIS!!!
This is a joke right? I mean there's no possible way you're serious right?
#57
anonymous
on
2009-08-27 09:34
i have been a member of st george for some time and i admire all that fr joe has done, he explained himself well for the signature on the checks and he apologized and i accept. he had an error in judgement. should we crucify the man. we all make mistakes. frjoe i love you and i fully support you along with my entire family. God bless you and i will never ever support an audit. my money will never support you george samra. please go away we dont want you. you are nothing but an embarrassment to our church. shame on you
#58
Anonymous
on
2009-08-28 22:03
The author does not allow comments to this entry
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