Friday, November 12. 2010
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It seems to be this is not only an AOCA issue. It appears all jurisdictions have issues with their mother church? Does anyone ever contemplate it us me us here if all jurisdictions have issues and want to be left alone? Odd fact of life.
#1 Happy on 2010-11-12 11:14
It is a fact, all Orthodox bodies in the New World based on ethnicity have issues with their "mother" Churches. In this context there is a huge,bright,exception,the OCA.It is the only Orthodox body in the New World that has no issue ,whatsoever, with its Mother Church. In order to get rid of all the "issues" with the bodies of the Old World the OCA should be the example to follow.
#1.1 Alexandru Nemoianu on 2010-11-14 07:16
I didn't know whether to laugh or cry at Archbishop Nathaniel's "clarification. Where does one start? With the trip to Romania a couple years ago where the Patriarch proffered an offer that the JDC didn't tell the people of the Episcopate about for months, or their denial that there was an offer or their agreement with it? Or maybe that the JDC continues to work presuming that the Episcopate going back under the Patriarchate in Bucharest after being here for over 100 years, and part of the OCA for 40 years is a good idea? Or that Archibishop Nathaniel can't seem to tell anyone where he really stands on the issue?
God help to good people of the Episcopate, and keep them safely in the Church in America. You can rest assured that the Patriarch in Bucharest is not looking out for our interests here.
#2 Anonymously sad about it all on 2010-11-12 13:30
> Archibishop Nathaniel can't seem to tell anyone where he
> really stands on the issue?
It's because he is between the hammer and the anvil. The way things go, if he does not unite with the Romanians under Bucharest, the next ROEA archbishop will be +Irineu. And I think even Mr. Nemoianu would agree that between going under Bucharest and having +Irineu as archbishop the first choice is the brightest.
The only way out is to have another ROEA auxiliary bishop, so that people will have a choice when +Nathaniel retires. However, so far the pro-union crowd is silently boycotting such attempts (Fr. Morris was not elected, Fr. Berger is not put forth as a candidate), and with +Irineu the only viable choice for successor this is driving the whole Romanian Diocese in the arms of Bucharest.
#2.1 Anonimus per Scorilo on 2010-11-13 09:41
Again from the same poster, such un-Christian insults and lies against a good bishop who does not deserve it. Bishop Irineu is not some "undercover agent" as those on the fringe try to lead us to believe.
Though not coming out and saying it, the comment author's intent is clear: division between the Romanian and American members of the diocese. Fortunately, I believe the great majority of the people see through these sad attempts at division.
These kind of politics are shameful whichever side they come from. Politics have no place here. We are the Church and should act as such.
#2.1.1 Anonymous on 2010-11-15 08:04
I am sorry if anyone feels insulted, but I do not think one should confound Christianity with absence of discernment.
I simply do not think +Irineu has the vision, theological depth or ability to inspire people that the future leader of the ROEA should have. He is an nice honest guy, who might do a good job as an auxiliary bishop, but it is obvious to everybody he is not in the same category as +Nathaniel, or +Basil, or +Benjamin, or +Joseph of the Western Europe Romanians. And I do not believe lowering one's standards and calling everybody who visits a few churches and stays away from trouble "a good bishop" will solve this problem.
P.S. I never said he is an undercover agent for Bucharest - he has been much too vocal for that. However, the fact that no other auxiliary bishop is elected pushes things towards Bucharest, and it is hard to believe that everybody involved in this is playing fair.
#184.108.40.206 Anonimus per Scorilo on 2010-11-15 16:07
If bishops only have a voice in their own country, Why did the OCA bishops attend, or better yet crash, the E.A.? Didn't they know to stay away, if their minds are already made up ? +ABN & +BI must have done a fact-finding survey there to find out what their in for sooner or later. Everyone wants unity with themselves on top. Unity is good if and only if ,a bishop serves with love. Look at how Am Bishops Love these days. Why, O -Why,O -Why,O- ??? Just keep on dragging it out past the Midnight hour and then ask the Bridegroom Himself. I still pray for Peace on Earth.
#220.127.116.11.1 Just answer these questions please on 2010-11-15 20:22
I appreciate that you are sorry if anyone feels insulted, but I would hope you would take the time to get to know Bishop Irineu before making such judgments about him. (Based on your statements, I can only assume you do not really know him.)
I have had the opportunity to speak with him many times when he comes to visit our church and it is always a pleasure. He is warm, intelligent, seems very understanding of us laypeople, and seems to be in touch with the real world. It's a lot more than anything I've seen coming from most other bishops lately. (And when comparing him with other bishops, remember that people may have very different opinions of the other bishops you mentioned.)
I know there are a few people out there who try to smear him as part of their campaign against the proposed unity. They have lied and mistranslated his statements into English in an effort to turn Americans against Romanians. Trying to scare people through such actions is not Christian, regardless of what you call "absence of discernment". It is underhanded and dirty politics.
I'm all for working with the bishops we have. We need to work with them to build up our diocese. If at some time in the future we have qualified candidates to elect to help our bishops, then that will be a good thing. Until then, we cannot lose sight of the fact that we are a church and should act like one.
#18.104.22.168.2 Anonymous on 2010-11-16 14:06
Alexander Nemoianu: I love this guy! He's FANTASTIC! What a clear, great mind. Thank God there is someone sane within the Romanians. Why O Why O Why does ANYONE want to subject themselves to FOREIGN BISHOPS? They offer nothing and want to take everything! Thank God for Orthodox like Alexander Nemojanu!
#3 Anonymous on 2010-11-12 15:17
I am surpized by such ignorancy, not to say STUPIDITY of the people who writtes articles AGAINST UNITY of the Romanians in USA and Canada.
THERE IS NO WAY OUT IN THIS DIRECTION !!! UNITY IS NO MATTER OF VOTE IT IS A CANONICAL SOLUTION.
Even we like it or not UNITY WILL HAPPEN PERIOD.
OCA will be out for good.
LOL. Hmmm. Remurobill is on to something.
Ignorancy R us.
#4.1 Anon. on 2010-11-13 08:10
And since the Romanians who are coming over to America now are planning to stay here, they should canonically become part of the Church that is here...and cut their apron strings. There is a strong, vibrant Church in America (despite the shortcomings of the hierarchs that have caused so much grief as of late), and those who are now living in the US and Canada should join it. THAT is the canonical solution, and there is nothing stupid about it.
#4.2 Another anon on 2010-11-13 09:16
As a witness, ot all these events, including the Episcopate council meetings, I can concur that His Eminence's reporting is nothing but accurate, and while I respect Mr. Stokoe's right to editorialize (and often agree with him), I cannot agree with his comments in response.
For example, it is neither correct that the council was split 50/50 on the proposal or that the DDC (Due Diligence Committee) ever stated that the issues were "so complex..." What they did report is that they did not have enough information yet to make a positive approval for further steps to be taken. All of this is a matter of public record. So, there has been some poor reporting done (lack of fact-checking), I'm sorry to say.
Keep up the good work, Mark, we love you.
#5 Fr. David Subu on 2010-11-12 17:02
If ....Nemoianu is giving us directions in USA and Unity we are the laughing stock of Orthodoxy and of the devil....
He bittes the hand who feeds him !!!
As a matter of principle I do not believe in anonymous letters.However the facts should be straighten up.
I am not an emploee of the Vatra.So I can not bite the hand whoo feeds me. It so happen I live in its vecinity.I have the deepest respect and love for Archbishop Nathaniel and I expressed in articles my feelings for him.I do not intend and I never intended to"give directions in Orthodoxy" to nobody ,and even less to a faceless "us".
I only express what ,according to my knowledge and my consicience,is the truth.
For this matter I never hide under a pen name or "anonymous" but signed my full name and took full responsability for what I said or say.I do not belive that I HAVE to be right but neither insults nor empty threats will make me change my opinions, but reasnonable arguments.
#6.1 Alexandru Nemoianu on 2010-11-13 10:56
Mark, you asked: "Then why does it take a team of lawyers, and months to prepare it? And still no final report is ready to present?"
I'll tell you why, because LAWYERS are involved. Lawyers will say even the most straightforward matter is "complex" if they think they can MILK a client for BILLABLE HOURS. Unfortunately, "ethics" among lawyers is a smoke screen to fool us laypeople into believing they're ethical. Today we have too many attorneys chasing too few clients. The self-serving Rules of the Court specify that only a licensed attorney can represent an organization. What a deal, file a lawsuit (or threaten to file one) to CREATE WORK for your profession. We laymen need to expose this racket and chase the unscrupulous out of our legal system. If attorneys were road builders, we'd still be driving on dirt roads with posted signs "your tax dollars at work." Road building is complex and takes time you know.
I know this comment is a little off topic, but a synonym for "complex" is "discombobulated." Using dicombobulated and attorney in the same sentence is being redundant. It is time for citizens and parishoners to "take back the night" from attorneys and politician/attorneys. To the extent our bishops and priests are practicing this dark art of deception, away from them too.
Having attorneys involved with this Romania matter is a guarantee that it will be made "complex," even it it is not. Jesus said "You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." Perhaps he meant to say "You shall have complexity, and complexity shall ensalve you, sucker."
(I realize my comments do not apply to all attorneys, or bishops, or priests... However, stereotypes sometimes emerge when behaviors warrant them. Food for thought. Met. Herman is a good example. Look how he tried to erect a wall around his corruption with a bevy of expensive attorneys. Proskauer Rose's outstretched palms were probably sunburned.)
#7 Anon. on 2010-11-13 08:05
Anon, your statement might be accurate if not for the fact that the attorneys on the DDC are all working for free and at expense to themselves, and have been dedicated supporters of the Episcopate for years. We though these individuals a debt of gratitude for their work and for suffering the kind of calumny you have posted.
The reason this process has taken months is not because of the Episcopate's counsel, but because information has been slow in forthcoming from ROAA. The issues are complex because they actually are. period.
(Editor's note: LOL. Didn't I just say that?)
#7.1 Fr. David on 2010-11-13 09:25
LOL-2. Didn't I say "my comments do not apply to all attorneys"? Why be so defensive if your attorneys don't fit the stereotype?
#7.1.1 Anon. on 2010-11-13 20:57
You Romanians get it right! Those pushing to unite under FOREIGN BISHOPS comes from those in the U.S. from Romania. It IS NOT CANONICAL to go under foreign bishops. The Canons of the Orthodox Church are clear, foreign bishops have NO authority over territory outside their immediate See. This is why in the United States, ALL the groups under foreign bishops are technically, non-canonical. LOCAL BISHOPS RULE OVER LOCAL CHURCHES without any reporting to or rule over by FOREIGN BISHOPS. This is why the Ep. Ass. is baloney! WAKE UP ALL YOU ROMANIANS! You have freedom to run your own churches under the OCA in a canonical manner. Under FOREIGN BISHOPS you subject yourselves to DESPOTS!
#8 Anonymous on 2010-11-13 08:36
I've stated this before, but with each passing month of jurisdictional morass, I believe it with deeper conviction.
If there is to be a unified Orthodox Church in America next year, then of course the Romanians should not be a unified jurisdiction with optimal autonomy now.
And if there is to be a unified Orthodox Church in America two years from now, then of course the Romanians should not be a unified jurisdiction with optimal autonomy next year even.
But, if there is not going to be a unified Orthodox Church in America--this year--next year--this decade...
In that case, the Romanians, for their numbers both in their homeland and abroad, are the most under-represented and ultimately disenfranchised nationality within our Orthodox Church here.
There are TWENTY MILLION of them, folks. And in their diaspora there are easily a million more. By some estimates there are a million of them in the US, some without legal status, but that's why they're uncounted.
Again, for the record, I was chrismated an Orthodox in the OCA. I'm a Norwegian-American of Lutheran descent. My familiarity with Romania is by marriage (post conversion) to a Romanian-American. I would love there to be a unified Orthodox Church in America. But a part of being a Norwegian-American is also to be at once exuberantly optimistic but also rigidly pragmatic.
It is not happening, folks. We are pissing into the wind in spite of the Old World Patriarchs who won't let it happen. But, it is not happening.
And that's ultimately why the Romanians, with regards to Church unity, should not be held to a higher standard than all of the rest of us.
All of the rest of us? How am I including myself in this?
How am I including you in this?
You persist in a Church that is in communion with other Churches that are all complicit in the problem we all here acknowledge.
That means that we all ultimately do, in fact, accept the status quo.
More than accept it. We support it.
You say you don't accept it? You say you don't support it?
Your actions, tomorrow morning (I write this Saturday night), speak otherwise.
You will go to Liturgy, as will I, at a Church in Communion with the Churches that we complain are causing this problem.
And I am not going to break that Communion. And I suspect you won't either.
I'm just saying that--barring the real prospect of a unified Orthodox Church in America--none of us should fault the Romanians for pursuing what is in their best interest. And--barring the real prospect of a unified Orthodox Church in America--I believe that is a unified jurisdiction with optimal autonomy.
Anyway, this Norwegian-American, who summers in Romania, sees the Romanians probably drifting toward a unified jurisdiction with optimal autonomy under Bucharest.
Oh, will it happen any time soon?
We're talking about the Orthodox Church, folks. Whatever here happened anytime soon?
But will it happen?
And it will probably happen before there exists a unified Orthodox Church here in America.
Let's simplify the issue of Unity and Canonicity.
According to the Canon laws from the First Eccumenical Council the institution which founded a diocese/episcopate is the owner of that. The ones who come after is the administrator NOT THE OWNWERS !!! Therefore the owners have the right to do whatever they need, for the future of that group no matter where that group is all over the world. It is like the parents own the house and they have the title of the house in their hands. The children try to vote to go with the parents or not, it doesn't matter to the parents, THEY DECIDE WHAT TO DO WITH THEIR HOUSE. Samething with the OCA and the Romanians and the rest.
You should know the canonlaws and the history of Orthodoxy.
You just made a fool of yourselves!!!.
Related to Nemoianu he things that the Romanians are not at the Heritage Center. When the Unity is form he flys from the center. He writes what Nathaniel is telling him to write. Nathaniel is the head of the Heritage Center for now.
Why Nathaniel goes to Rome ?
Get it right concerning Orthodox Canon Law. The Romanians under the OCA are members of an indigenous, canonical, Orthodox local church in America. This is EXACTLY how the Holy Apostles organized the Church - LOCAL CHURCHES UNDER LOCAL BISHOPS. The Holy Apostles didn't tell those in Antioch to report to Jerusalem or Rome. The Canons of the Church follow this. We don't believe in foreign bishops holding property not in their local See. Study your Canon Law. Foreign bishops have no real authority over North America! It's not a matter of "UNITY," it IS a matter of LOCAL BISHOPS RULING OVER LOCAL CHURCHES!
#10.1 Anonymous on 2010-11-15 06:58
Again I have to repeat that the Heritage Center is not an appendix of the "Vatra".It is an institution in its own rights and the decisions are taken by the General Assembly of its voting members.For each $5,000.00 donation one vote.
Archbishop Nathaniel is the Chairman of the Board of Directors.A rather honorific position.The Chairman is not the executive.Consequently Rem.Bleahu can stay assured that "Nemoianu will not "fly" and that the "unity" will not happen.
The Episcopates,are own by the local people,the Body of Christ,and they should be local.The pan Orthodox synod of September 10,1872 was crystal clear about this aspect and equally crystal clear in regard to ethnicity and philetism.In fact that synod called the promotors of ethnocentrism and philetism,"schismatics" and "heretics".For that matter,your humbly will give more credit to Sts.Igantius and Cyprian and to the synod of Constantinople from 1872 than to Remus Bleahu' opinions.By the way is Rm.Bleahu still a priest?Under whose omophorion?
#10.2 Alexandru Nemoianu on 2010-11-15 07:41
Mr. Nemoianu is correct; he is there to stay and nobody can change that.
The votes received in exchange for donations (as he has pointed out) can then be willed to a proxy after death. My understanding is that Mr. Nemoianu's wife controls, through post-death proxy, a great majority of the votes. She alone can out-vote everyone else (in reality just a few people representing a few organizations).
So it's safe to say that Mr. Nemoianu is there to stay as long as he (or should I say his wife) wants.
#10.2.1 Anonymous on 2010-11-15 11:58
Orthodoxy in America will be made by all the Patriarchate not by us!!!
The Patriarh of Constantinopole said:"You in America are not mature" and he is right. We don't have a Bible for all the American Orthodox; We don't have one Liturgy book for all the Orthodox people; We don't have a Religious educational progarm for all the Orthodox people in USA and Canada. We don't have a serious Orthodox school for all the Orthodox people in USA. We don't have an Orthodox National Cathedral for all the Orthodox people in USA and Canada. We don't have an Orthodox lobby in Washington for our Orthodox interests in USA and Canada.
But we have a big mouth and no brains and we thnik that the almighty dollar rezolvs all. We all are wrong and NAIVE.
Waike up and be MATURE !!!
The Pat. of ISTANBUL has no real authority over North America or any other territory outside his See. Same with Moscow, Damascus, etc. These are foreign bishops still trying to grab land & money of Americans. To allow ANY foreign bishop to control your local church is just stupid! WHY??? Canon Law states clearly that local bishops rule over local churches. This is why the OCA is the ONLY real answer to Orthodox unity in North America!
#11.1 Anonymous on 2010-11-15 07:06
Hey Annonimous you did not do your homework or it is very sloppy.
Authochepalous tomus of OCA is a piece of .... not recognized by anyone, even by Moskow, and by the end of December it will be retracted for good.
The Canons related to one city one bishop is for one country one patriarchate not for an American chiaclamaka = canonical anomaly.
You make a fool of yourself.
The Romanians are saying: "IF U REMAIN SILET YOU ARE A CONSIDERED A PHYLOSOPHER BUT IF TALK YOU SHOW HOW MUCK STUPID YOU ARE"
(Editor's note: The Autocephaly of the OCA is offcially recognized dejure by 1/3 of the other autocephalous churches; not officially recognized by 1/3; and 1/3 have made no official comment one way or the other. It is de facto recognized by all. And I am sure that your inside knowledge of its imminent revocation by Moscow in December is a surprise not only to Syosset, but to Moscow as well.
You would have been more accurate, and done better, had you followed the advice in your final line.)
The Tomos of Autocephaly for the OCA CAN'T be rescinded! A "tomos" is an official declaration of the Church. Furthermore, since the OCA is in Communion with ALL Orthodox worldwide (except the nuts), de facto, the OCA is recognized. If you will note, only those churches affiliated with Istanbul won't "FORMALLY" recognize the OCA's autocephaly. WHY? Because if they did, in North America, according to canon law, the Greeks would come under the OCA's authority. The Greeks aren't interested in N. Am. unity under a local church free from foreign bishops. The "old country" bishops wish to dominate foreign lands against canon law!
#12.1 Anonymous on 2010-11-16 06:37
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