Wednesday, October 18. 2006
Changes in the OCA: The Lawsuit Is Terminated, Danilchik Resigns
Your comments on the changing situation in the OCA are welcome.
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I’m disappointed that they dropped the lawsuit.
This "could" have been better if they didn’t. Since "the Kondratick’s" brought the case to court, the “fed’s” might have started to investigate the entire mess.
Ande
This "could" have been better if they didn’t. Since "the Kondratick’s" brought the case to court, the “fed’s” might have started to investigate the entire mess.
Ande
#1
Ande
on
2006-10-18 20:38
Well we willsee what happens , they have over 2 years to reopen it.
I don't think so. He was running the office that should have been taking care of repaying the loan. He seems to have had what might be called *"unclean hands"*.
#3
William Kosar
on
2006-10-19 16:22
Since Dcn Danilcheck has resigned (from VOLUNTEER service!), his hands are NO LONGER tied by lawyers, are they? Perchance, as a PERSONAL best practice in truth, honesty and transparency, he'd now like to unburden himself and share - on this forum, as a free man - that information which previously shackled him... "for the good of the church."
Re: the lawsuit. It took time but the plaintiff finally figured out there's no more blood to be squeezed from this turnip. (Maybe Honsdale Bank could float us another quarter-mill, just in case.) Was this lawsuit added to Proskaer-Rose's "to do" list? There was no mention of the MC authorizing any defense.
Thanks, Mark, for keeping this site up-and-running (or hobbling as the case may be). While Syosett slams every door (and mouth!) shut, at least here we can try to peek through the kitchen window to see whose hands are in the cookie jar.
Re: the lawsuit. It took time but the plaintiff finally figured out there's no more blood to be squeezed from this turnip. (Maybe Honsdale Bank could float us another quarter-mill, just in case.) Was this lawsuit added to Proskaer-Rose's "to do" list? There was no mention of the MC authorizing any defense.
Thanks, Mark, for keeping this site up-and-running (or hobbling as the case may be). While Syosett slams every door (and mouth!) shut, at least here we can try to peek through the kitchen window to see whose hands are in the cookie jar.
#4
Increasingly Miffed
on
2006-10-19 17:20
Dear Increasingly Miffed,
Why would anyone with an ounce of self-respect respond to such a disrespectful comment?
In Christ, Deacon Peter
Why would anyone with an ounce of self-respect respond to such a disrespectful comment?
In Christ, Deacon Peter
#4.1
Protodeacon Peter Danilchick
on
2006-10-20 13:41
Dear Fr. Protodeacon,
Thank you for your service during a difficult time. I know you didn't do it for me, but for God. Nevertheless, I benefited. I'm glad you are staying on to do work that you think will build up the Church.
Thank you for your service during a difficult time. I know you didn't do it for me, but for God. Nevertheless, I benefited. I'm glad you are staying on to do work that you think will build up the Church.
#4.1.1
Matt Karnes
on
2006-10-20 14:27
Just echoing Matt -- Thank you for your past and for your continuing efforts, Dcn. Peter.
Rebecca Matovic
Rebecca Matovic
#4.1.1.1
Rebecca Matovic
on
2006-10-21 10:52
I wonder what is holding up the Proskauer Rose investigation. It should be finished by now. I remember reading that the estimated legal fees for the investigation would be about $100,000. That might sound like a lot of money, but for a large New York law firm it is actually a small project. Firms typically charge $300-$500 per hour of attorney time, so that works out to about 300 total hours worth of work (being conservative). If three attorneys worked full time on the project, the report would be completed in less than three weeks.
Sometimes investigations take a long time because there is an inordinate number of documents and emails than need to be reviewed. That does not appear to be the case here. The reports we have heard are that there are few records to review -- for whatever reason.
It is true that a thorough investigation takes time, but the reality of attorney fees means that a thorough investigation is going to be limited to about 300 hours of attorney time. That means that the report could have been finished months ago. If the Metropolitan Council presses for a final report, they could probably have a final report within a week.
Sometimes investigations take a long time because there is an inordinate number of documents and emails than need to be reviewed. That does not appear to be the case here. The reports we have heard are that there are few records to review -- for whatever reason.
It is true that a thorough investigation takes time, but the reality of attorney fees means that a thorough investigation is going to be limited to about 300 hours of attorney time. That means that the report could have been finished months ago. If the Metropolitan Council presses for a final report, they could probably have a final report within a week.
#5
Robert Vasilios Wachter, Esq.
on
2006-10-19 18:14
It doesn't take brilliant minds to establish who had check signing authority during the periods being questioned. Those that did, and made checks payable to cash, should be called to explain their reasons for doing so. They should also be able to remember who got the cash!
Also, the bank of deposit should have a backlog of the signing authority documents in their files.
What's the problem here?
Also, the bank of deposit should have a backlog of the signing authority documents in their files.
What's the problem here?
#5.1
Anonymous
on
2006-10-23 00:37
Looks like the dog and pony show is almost over......one can tell by the smoke and mirrors
#6
Luke
on
2006-10-19 20:10
I have not posted here in a number of months, as I have been meditating on what all this means for myself and my family. Since converting to Orthodoxy about 10 years ago, it has been more of a struggle to remain Orthodox, at least in differing ways, than I expected. As some of you know, Rod Dreher (author of "Crunchy Cons") converted a couple of months ago, and reading his personal struggles with the Catholic church reminded me of my own with Orthodoxy. To make a long story short, there have been many "ethnic encounters". We had hoped they would have subsided after leaving the Greek church, and while they improved they have still been a major issue. For the last 10 months (since moving to a city without an Antiochian parish) I have been part of an OCA parish and have yet to encounter the usual ethnic tension. However, this financial mismanagement, and the appalling reaction to it by the bishops, led me to the realization of just how mal-adjusted Orthodoxy is here in America. The bishops appear to have no better handle on the basics of maintaining Christ's commands "in the institution" than Rome has (I am thinking of Rome's handling of the sexual abuse of children).
I think the tipping point came for me with Bishop Dimitri's (my Diocese) reaction to his and his fellow bishops failures. “Idle chatter”, and cheap “forgiveness”, is this all the man has to offer? Also, in my parish, there is a sense that his is a distant reality that does not affect the parish in any significant way. Thus, they are willing to continue to fund the diocese and the central administration. I wonder what their reaction would have been if the bishops failure was not with something mundane like finances and honesty, but something more like our children and their moral and physical safety. I sense that these men can not be trusted on a very basic level. That's what all this comes down to, trust. We all struggle in our souls, in our families, in our vocation, in everything we do to find people and institutions where we can trust certain things. We pray to God that we can trust Him and His Church. These bishops have proved they can not be trusted with relatively unimportant things like money. My parish has lost my trust by their relatively frivolous response. My wife and I are hoping to have a child soon, and this issue is coming to a head for us. How do we trust a bishop, a local parish, with something so important as our children’s spiritual formation when this Church can not keep it's house in order? I am one thing, as I am an adult have grown somewhat accustom to the situation of Orthodoxy in this country. My child (hopefully children!) are something else entirely. I see glimmers of light, for example Fr. Hopko seems to be questioning the bigger picture and the general health and direction of this Church. However, things are moving slowly, and children grow up fast.
My wife and I have not come to a decision yet. If there was another english speaking parish (i.e. non Greek) in our city we would have already been there. What else can we do? Continuing Anglican? Some traditional protestant church that holds to some portion of our heritage? The fact that we are even considering these options still surprises me sometimes.
I wanted to pass this along because I have noticed a facile "when the going gets tough you bail out on Christ's Church?!?!" sort of response to others who have expressed they are considering leaving this "jurisdiction". We all know Christ is at the center, and we all know His Body and Blood is there in the cup. We all know the Devil has done far worse and the Church has survived. However, in America, at the beginning of the 21st centaury in these more and more decadent modern times, is the OCA the Church where my children will be raised? I obviously do not know the answer to the question. In the meantime we continue to attend our local OCA parish with a weary heart, and a weary mind. Christ is there yes, but is He getting through? Some of you will no doubt express abundant faith, but I am looking for the fruits by which we are assured we know and I am seeing a meager harvest…
I think the tipping point came for me with Bishop Dimitri's (my Diocese) reaction to his and his fellow bishops failures. “Idle chatter”, and cheap “forgiveness”, is this all the man has to offer? Also, in my parish, there is a sense that his is a distant reality that does not affect the parish in any significant way. Thus, they are willing to continue to fund the diocese and the central administration. I wonder what their reaction would have been if the bishops failure was not with something mundane like finances and honesty, but something more like our children and their moral and physical safety. I sense that these men can not be trusted on a very basic level. That's what all this comes down to, trust. We all struggle in our souls, in our families, in our vocation, in everything we do to find people and institutions where we can trust certain things. We pray to God that we can trust Him and His Church. These bishops have proved they can not be trusted with relatively unimportant things like money. My parish has lost my trust by their relatively frivolous response. My wife and I are hoping to have a child soon, and this issue is coming to a head for us. How do we trust a bishop, a local parish, with something so important as our children’s spiritual formation when this Church can not keep it's house in order? I am one thing, as I am an adult have grown somewhat accustom to the situation of Orthodoxy in this country. My child (hopefully children!) are something else entirely. I see glimmers of light, for example Fr. Hopko seems to be questioning the bigger picture and the general health and direction of this Church. However, things are moving slowly, and children grow up fast.
My wife and I have not come to a decision yet. If there was another english speaking parish (i.e. non Greek) in our city we would have already been there. What else can we do? Continuing Anglican? Some traditional protestant church that holds to some portion of our heritage? The fact that we are even considering these options still surprises me sometimes.
I wanted to pass this along because I have noticed a facile "when the going gets tough you bail out on Christ's Church?!?!" sort of response to others who have expressed they are considering leaving this "jurisdiction". We all know Christ is at the center, and we all know His Body and Blood is there in the cup. We all know the Devil has done far worse and the Church has survived. However, in America, at the beginning of the 21st centaury in these more and more decadent modern times, is the OCA the Church where my children will be raised? I obviously do not know the answer to the question. In the meantime we continue to attend our local OCA parish with a weary heart, and a weary mind. Christ is there yes, but is He getting through? Some of you will no doubt express abundant faith, but I am looking for the fruits by which we are assured we know and I am seeing a meager harvest…
#7
Christopher
on
2006-10-19 20:41
As a fellow Christopher and convert of just 10 years, I read your post with an eerie sense of having wrote it myself.
We can be guided by the life of St. Christopher. Despite being set apart from this world by his barbaric origins, ghastly appearance, and Christian faith, he converted a great multitude through his martydom. I take to heart the call of many in the Diocese of the Midwest (of which I am part) to be co-sufferers, in effect marytrs.
Marytrs seem on the one hand to be isolated. I always imagine the crowds, the entire society, surrounding them, and like the crowd in Jerusalem, yelling out something like "Crucify him!" Yet, we know that the marytrs themselves do not feel or believe themselves to be isolated. They are surrounded by the Church, the saints, the angels, and all the faithful.
Not all martrydom or suffering is as public as Christ's or some of the saints. But it is still martyrdom - why else would the Church in its Wisdom put crowns on our heads during the marriage service and sing in honor of the Holy Marytrs?
As you sing at the end of Liturgy, you have found the True Faith. The Protestant churches or the traditional, continuing Anglican churches are mere shadows of the Church. Only in the Orthodox Church is the fullness of Truth found. As someone baptized Catholic, confirmed traditional Anglican, but CONVERTED to Orthodoxy, my experience is this: Those churches are equally, if not more, ethnic than an Orthodox parish. It just so happens that the ethnicity is mine. I smile now when I recall all the Anglophile parishes I attended where we were as concerned about what language we ate, what food was eaten during coffee hour, what "tradition" we would follow, than any Greek parish.
So hang in there, my fellow Christopher. The relentless drip-drip-drip of this scandal is nothing to the Church - it is just maddening to us still bound to earthly time. There is still much to suffer, but much to rejoice in this journey.
Christopher Eager
Holy Trinity, Overland Park, KS
We can be guided by the life of St. Christopher. Despite being set apart from this world by his barbaric origins, ghastly appearance, and Christian faith, he converted a great multitude through his martydom. I take to heart the call of many in the Diocese of the Midwest (of which I am part) to be co-sufferers, in effect marytrs.
Marytrs seem on the one hand to be isolated. I always imagine the crowds, the entire society, surrounding them, and like the crowd in Jerusalem, yelling out something like "Crucify him!" Yet, we know that the marytrs themselves do not feel or believe themselves to be isolated. They are surrounded by the Church, the saints, the angels, and all the faithful.
Not all martrydom or suffering is as public as Christ's or some of the saints. But it is still martyrdom - why else would the Church in its Wisdom put crowns on our heads during the marriage service and sing in honor of the Holy Marytrs?
As you sing at the end of Liturgy, you have found the True Faith. The Protestant churches or the traditional, continuing Anglican churches are mere shadows of the Church. Only in the Orthodox Church is the fullness of Truth found. As someone baptized Catholic, confirmed traditional Anglican, but CONVERTED to Orthodoxy, my experience is this: Those churches are equally, if not more, ethnic than an Orthodox parish. It just so happens that the ethnicity is mine. I smile now when I recall all the Anglophile parishes I attended where we were as concerned about what language we ate, what food was eaten during coffee hour, what "tradition" we would follow, than any Greek parish.
So hang in there, my fellow Christopher. The relentless drip-drip-drip of this scandal is nothing to the Church - it is just maddening to us still bound to earthly time. There is still much to suffer, but much to rejoice in this journey.
Christopher Eager
Holy Trinity, Overland Park, KS
#7.1
Christopher Eager
on
2006-10-20 09:25
Can I reply to my own comment?
I typed "What langauge we ate..."
I just have to laugh and laugh.
There are times when it would be best to eat our words.
I typed "What langauge we ate..."
I just have to laugh and laugh.
There are times when it would be best to eat our words.
#7.1.1
Christopher Eager
on
2006-10-20 17:35
As a fellow convert, I relate to your struggle. Having been a committed 'searcher' for Truth for many, many years, I was so happy when I found Orthodoxy, and even happier when I found the OCA, seemingly unburdened with the vaqrious ethnic issues. And now, "The Scandal." I have made a commitment to NOT abandon Orthodoxy for another type of Chrisitanity -- these others simply do not measure-up doctrinally to the Orthodox Faith. The OCA is another matter, however. I would rather have my True Faith and deal with ethinic issues, than to be 'accepted' in a doctrinally-improper Church, having faith that Our Lord would give me strength to overcome 'acceptance' issues. As you say, however, it is troubling to expose children to the current environment in the OCA. Granted, it pales in comparison to the Roman Church issues, but troubling nonetheless. In the meantime, I will continue my intra-Orthodox search, and pray that the OCA bishops will do the right thing and all resign en masse, giving us the opportunity to identify honest, capable leaders to put into their places. If these gentlemen really believed in Judgement Day, they would not hesitate to step aside, let someone else lead the Lord's flock, and spend the remainder of their lives praying for forgiveness for their errors of omission or commission in The Scandal. I would like to offer you my encouragement to hold fast to the Faith, and to be vigilant with respect to church leadership; a new Parish might do the trick for you, as opposed to a new creed. Pity it must come to such decisions.
#7.2
Convoluted Convert
on
2006-10-20 13:36
no matter where you go,people are people,SINNERS.may be you can catch the next spaceship to planet mars and start a parish there.forgive my sarcasm,but noone should leave the church over this.and about the ethnic question.there are immigrants who feel uncomfortable in a typical OCA church.not only because of the language,but other issues,such as the new calender,the pews,the relaxed attitude,women in pants and no head cover etc.etc.but they STILL COME if no other orthodox church is available.THERE IS NO IDEAL SITUATION in this world,but you must continue to struggle to gain the HEAVENLY KINGDOM.and,just to make an additional point.you don't move out of the country either when corrupt politicians in the government do wrong.I hope you find PEACE.
#7.3
Anonymous
on
2006-10-20 13:39
Unlike those of you who converted to Orthodoxy, I am a cradle Orthodox. Our common bond is our bitter disappointment in the OCA. Each day I ask myself, What is the answer for me? Can I continue to worship in an environment where I no longer trust or respect our teachers? Is anyone interested in our spiritual welfare or is it only in our money?
This OCA experience will follow me everywhere, always doubting and looking over my shoulder. If I remain with an OCA church, I will never be comfortable. If I go elsewhere, I will be guarded. My solution is to withdraw, pray and study on my own until the OCA has turned around.
Thank you OCA powers (you know who you are), you have left your mark!!
This OCA experience will follow me everywhere, always doubting and looking over my shoulder. If I remain with an OCA church, I will never be comfortable. If I go elsewhere, I will be guarded. My solution is to withdraw, pray and study on my own until the OCA has turned around.
Thank you OCA powers (you know who you are), you have left your mark!!
#7.3.1
Withheld
on
2006-10-20 18:36
1. The Orthodox are not a denomination but, by definition, teach the doctrines of the Church in their fullness. Leaving the Church is not recommended whatever its administrative problems.
2. Administratively, the North American Orthodox are in a terrible mess and are taking too few steps to correct the confused proliferation of jurisdictions that, absurdly, frequently treat each other as separate denominations. The big picture of growing the Church is too frequently overwhelmed by jurisdictional pride.
3. The financial questions at the heart of the controversy within the OCA are related in no small measure to the competitive jurisdictional-building obsession of the North American Orthodox and the negative, false pride associated with this activity.
4. A reading of this message board supports the view that the reaction among many of the OCA faithful to this controversy is also bounded by their jurisdictional pride. How can we fix the OCA is their question, not how can we use this crisis to move more quickly towards Orthodox unity in North America.
2. Administratively, the North American Orthodox are in a terrible mess and are taking too few steps to correct the confused proliferation of jurisdictions that, absurdly, frequently treat each other as separate denominations. The big picture of growing the Church is too frequently overwhelmed by jurisdictional pride.
3. The financial questions at the heart of the controversy within the OCA are related in no small measure to the competitive jurisdictional-building obsession of the North American Orthodox and the negative, false pride associated with this activity.
4. A reading of this message board supports the view that the reaction among many of the OCA faithful to this controversy is also bounded by their jurisdictional pride. How can we fix the OCA is their question, not how can we use this crisis to move more quickly towards Orthodox unity in North America.
#7.4
Yet another convert
on
2006-10-20 14:03
I'm afraid I must take issue with you on this one. Please allow me to point out 2 items:
1) The OCA is the ONLY autocephalous Orthodox church in America. That truly counts for something.
2) Perhaps you haven't read the joint statement from the SCOBA gathering earlier this month. Unity is dead, at least for the forseeable future.
Most of us feel that the OCA is worth saving, rather than abandon ship.
1) The OCA is the ONLY autocephalous Orthodox church in America. That truly counts for something.
2) Perhaps you haven't read the joint statement from the SCOBA gathering earlier this month. Unity is dead, at least for the forseeable future.
Most of us feel that the OCA is worth saving, rather than abandon ship.
#7.4.1
Michael Strelka
on
2006-10-25 18:24
With apologies to Mr. Strelka, I believe you are quite right!
I too, see this as an opportunity to advance Orthodox unity in North America and put an end to the hierarchical rivalry, division, pride, arrogance, and just about every other sin under the sun, that has led to multiple jurisdictions for far too long.
The OCA could and should have been a model for that unity. Its failure, to date, in that regard, is its biggest and most unforgivable shortcoming. It is up to the laity in all the various jurisdictions to demand that this heretical nonsense end now. We, collectively, have the ability through financial and other support, or lack thereof, to make it so, even if the bishops don't want it to happen for purely selfish reasons. All we need to do is summons the will and resolve.
KRT
I too, see this as an opportunity to advance Orthodox unity in North America and put an end to the hierarchical rivalry, division, pride, arrogance, and just about every other sin under the sun, that has led to multiple jurisdictions for far too long.
The OCA could and should have been a model for that unity. Its failure, to date, in that regard, is its biggest and most unforgivable shortcoming. It is up to the laity in all the various jurisdictions to demand that this heretical nonsense end now. We, collectively, have the ability through financial and other support, or lack thereof, to make it so, even if the bishops don't want it to happen for purely selfish reasons. All we need to do is summons the will and resolve.
KRT
#7.4.2
Ken Tobin
on
2006-10-27 12:22
Dear Christopher: The Church has had far, far greater troubles in the past (read about the Union of Florence and how mad the laity was at THAT) and far greater soundrels as bishops. At times in the past few months I too have been despondent over some of the things I have read.
So take heart my friend. Keep praying, as all of us should do. Teach your children about the true faith as preached by the Apostles and the Fathers. We, and the Church, shall triumph in the end. And no matter how alone you might feel at your parish, just think how alone one person on North Lasalle Street in Chicago must feel.
So take heart my friend. Keep praying, as all of us should do. Teach your children about the true faith as preached by the Apostles and the Fathers. We, and the Church, shall triumph in the end. And no matter how alone you might feel at your parish, just think how alone one person on North Lasalle Street in Chicago must feel.
#7.5
Michael Strelka
on
2006-10-20 14:47
Cappy Larson, Greta Larson and I have run a website for victims of abuse in the Orthodox churches for about seven and a half years. The Orthodox churches may not yet have gotten the publicity that the Roman church has, but they indeed have made, and continue to make, some of the same mistakes with respect to sexual misconduct. In fact, I would venture to say that some of the OCA money problems are related to this fact. It's the elephant in the living room about which no one talks openly.
Melanie Jula Sakoda
Melanie Jula Sakoda
Dear Christopher,
Please continue your search. This website OCANEWS.org is only providing information on "FINANCIAL" concerns. An Orthodox Christian website dealing with sexual abuse and concerns for how these issues are handled can be found at www.pokrov.org.
ANON.
Please continue your search. This website OCANEWS.org is only providing information on "FINANCIAL" concerns. An Orthodox Christian website dealing with sexual abuse and concerns for how these issues are handled can be found at www.pokrov.org.
ANON.
#7.7
Anonymous
on
2006-10-25 07:49
So, how can (though this is now merely (hopefully) academic) a promissory note be enforceable if it is supported by the "exchange" of something already given in the past ... well before the date the note was signed or even negotiated? Here, the note was given in exchange for funds expended by the K's well before the note was executed or negotiated (or even thought of), right? Is this an enforceable contract? Seems counter intuitive. Shouldnt a promissory note be a promisse to pay $ in the future in exchange for something given today (i.e. with the execution of the note), whether it be money or other goods, services or a promise to do something? Any lawyers out there can clear up this question?
#8
Anne A. Nemos
on
2006-10-19 22:25
A promissory note is merely written evidence of a debt. It may be executed before, at the moment of, or after the creation of the underlying legal obligation. Its only purpose is to prove an enforceable legal obligation.
#8.1
Robert VasiliosWachter, Esq.
on
2006-10-20 09:53
I'm so angry with the news of Dn. Danilchik resigning that I have to try and be brief.
I am again calling on all members of the Metropolitan Council elected before July, 2005 to resign, or produce compilation reports that support that you made good decisions for the OCA. I don't believe you have supported good decision making and I know this based on the honest statements made by Bishop Tikhon of the West re: 2002 compilation reports.
I'm about a centimeter away from calling for the resignation of MH. The OCA wishes to operate with a veil of secrecy in its concert with Proskauer Rose and that policy is not in concert with the Gospel as I have interpreted it over my 40 years of Orthodox upbringing. This dichotomy is a greater concern to me than whether MH and the rest mismanaged the OCA as they certainly did.
One of the greatest difficulties accountants face is disclosing only what needs to be disclosed. In a church, this should be easy, and full disclosure should be desired. The OCA, therefore, must not be a church. Again, this is an unbearable dichotomy for me.
One of the Commandments is Thou Shalt Not Lie. The Commandment isn't, Thou Shalt Tell Only what you need to tell to stay out of trouble. Another unbearable dichotomy.
End the dichotomy.
Every Sunday we pray for our civil authorities. Where are they?
I would like to see a petition started for an investigation into this matter. The petition should go to the following:
All State Attorney Generals offices where charity appeals were collected by the OCA.
All US Senators
FBI
IRS
anyone else can add to the distribution
Mark, can you start a petition so we don't have another dichotomy between our Liturgical petitions on Sunday and what we expect our church to be subject to?
PS Have I overused dichotomy or is it real in all of these instances?
I am again calling on all members of the Metropolitan Council elected before July, 2005 to resign, or produce compilation reports that support that you made good decisions for the OCA. I don't believe you have supported good decision making and I know this based on the honest statements made by Bishop Tikhon of the West re: 2002 compilation reports.
I'm about a centimeter away from calling for the resignation of MH. The OCA wishes to operate with a veil of secrecy in its concert with Proskauer Rose and that policy is not in concert with the Gospel as I have interpreted it over my 40 years of Orthodox upbringing. This dichotomy is a greater concern to me than whether MH and the rest mismanaged the OCA as they certainly did.
One of the greatest difficulties accountants face is disclosing only what needs to be disclosed. In a church, this should be easy, and full disclosure should be desired. The OCA, therefore, must not be a church. Again, this is an unbearable dichotomy for me.
One of the Commandments is Thou Shalt Not Lie. The Commandment isn't, Thou Shalt Tell Only what you need to tell to stay out of trouble. Another unbearable dichotomy.
End the dichotomy.
Every Sunday we pray for our civil authorities. Where are they?
I would like to see a petition started for an investigation into this matter. The petition should go to the following:
All State Attorney Generals offices where charity appeals were collected by the OCA.
All US Senators
FBI
IRS
anyone else can add to the distribution
Mark, can you start a petition so we don't have another dichotomy between our Liturgical petitions on Sunday and what we expect our church to be subject to?
PS Have I overused dichotomy or is it real in all of these instances?
#9
Daniel E. Fall
on
2006-10-20 08:15
I am replying to my own statement. I suppose there is a very small amount of prudence in listening to PR, but I am becoming impatient.
Las Vegas attorneys...hmmm. Why would anyone seek out a Las Vegas attorney when they live on the East Coast?
Las Vegas attorneys...hmmm. Why would anyone seek out a Las Vegas attorney when they live on the East Coast?
#9.1
Daniel E. Fall
on
2006-10-21 07:56
On September 20th many of us read PART ONE of a three part series on this web site, then on September 25th we read PART TWO of a Three part Series. For one month I have been holding my breath waiting for the third part and I am starting to turn blue.
(Editor's Note:
Dear Sophia,
Monday or Tuesday at the latest, I promise. It's been a busy month.)
(Editor's Note:
Dear Sophia,
Monday or Tuesday at the latest, I promise. It's been a busy month.)
#10
Sophia Orrthi
on
2006-10-20 14:45
Three points:
1. Protodeacon Peter chose to serve his Metropolitan as a spokesman, and he served honorably.
2. Metropolitan Herman and Father Paul Kucynda did the right thing in allowing Protodeacon Peter to resign this position when he did.
3. I see this entire situation as a three act play. By the end of the third act, and after a very rocky start, the concept and fact of Orthodoxy on our continent will flourish. Sadly, we're still in the first act, but at least we seem to be in the last scenes of the first act.
1. Protodeacon Peter chose to serve his Metropolitan as a spokesman, and he served honorably.
2. Metropolitan Herman and Father Paul Kucynda did the right thing in allowing Protodeacon Peter to resign this position when he did.
3. I see this entire situation as a three act play. By the end of the third act, and after a very rocky start, the concept and fact of Orthodoxy on our continent will flourish. Sadly, we're still in the first act, but at least we seem to be in the last scenes of the first act.
#11
Mark Warns, Poulsbo, Washington
on
2006-10-20 17:40
re the withdrawal of the Kondratik lawsuit. Why did they withdraw it? I'm very curious and very suspicious. What was the lawsuit about? Answers?
#12
anonymous
on
2006-10-20 20:50
He can't sue an office that he ran for something he didn't do!!
#12.1
William Kosar
on
2006-10-21 09:49
Dear Christopher #7:
Leaders may be ugly, but the Church is always beautiful. And Christ is always near.
A year ago, He presented us with a golden opportunity to clean up and shovel out the stench of dysfunction, fear, fraud, wrongheadedness and small-mindedness that had plagued our OCA in recent years. He gave us this difficult but providential time that is testing us all to the core. But this is also the best of times because the cancer is being diagnosed and will soon be removed, no matter how much it tries to hide, dodge or weave.
Over the span of 2,000 years, the Church has often suffered under unscrupulous leadership. The Church often got the leadership She deserved when distraction and lethargy took root.
But there were always those heroic times that followed, when men and women of good will and inexhaustible hope saw clearly what had become of the Church and gave their lives over to putting things straight. The good news was always that the Church, when pruned, survived and revived (until the next challenge came along).
There are many clergy and lay who have taken today's call to action as a call to cower, pretend and rationalize. But there are at least as many who are standing up in a myriad of ways, producing a monstrous ground-swell that will soon overwhelm and dislodge what is no longer useful.
Please be of good cheer, Christopher #7. On one hand, this is an ugly scandal. But on the other hand, it is a glorious mission and providential opportunity to reclaim the land overseen by dishonest and unaccountable tenents before they succeed in sucking it dry of its joy and wonderful possibilities.
Baba Lou Montgomery
Leaders may be ugly, but the Church is always beautiful. And Christ is always near.
A year ago, He presented us with a golden opportunity to clean up and shovel out the stench of dysfunction, fear, fraud, wrongheadedness and small-mindedness that had plagued our OCA in recent years. He gave us this difficult but providential time that is testing us all to the core. But this is also the best of times because the cancer is being diagnosed and will soon be removed, no matter how much it tries to hide, dodge or weave.
Over the span of 2,000 years, the Church has often suffered under unscrupulous leadership. The Church often got the leadership She deserved when distraction and lethargy took root.
But there were always those heroic times that followed, when men and women of good will and inexhaustible hope saw clearly what had become of the Church and gave their lives over to putting things straight. The good news was always that the Church, when pruned, survived and revived (until the next challenge came along).
There are many clergy and lay who have taken today's call to action as a call to cower, pretend and rationalize. But there are at least as many who are standing up in a myriad of ways, producing a monstrous ground-swell that will soon overwhelm and dislodge what is no longer useful.
Please be of good cheer, Christopher #7. On one hand, this is an ugly scandal. But on the other hand, it is a glorious mission and providential opportunity to reclaim the land overseen by dishonest and unaccountable tenents before they succeed in sucking it dry of its joy and wonderful possibilities.
Baba Lou Montgomery
#13
Baba Lou Montgomery
on
2006-10-20 23:07
I'm sorry to interrupt the flow of these wonderful comments, but I'd like to add a little clarity to a point raised by PDN Danilchik in his resignation letter.
Phrased more accurately, it isn't the lawyers who are restricting the flow of information about the investigation, it is the nature of the information revealed by the investigation which is causing the lawyers to restrict it. If the investigation revealed positive information or even negative information which was merely confirmatory - adding only dates, times, places, and faces to what is already known - the report would probably have already been released.
Now, back to your wonderful comments.
Phrased more accurately, it isn't the lawyers who are restricting the flow of information about the investigation, it is the nature of the information revealed by the investigation which is causing the lawyers to restrict it. If the investigation revealed positive information or even negative information which was merely confirmatory - adding only dates, times, places, and faces to what is already known - the report would probably have already been released.
Now, back to your wonderful comments.
#14
Mark Warns
on
2006-10-21 07:32
FINALLY, SOMEONE GET'S IT!!!
Good job, Mark.
Michael Geeza
Good job, Mark.
Michael Geeza
#14.1
Michael Geeza
on
2006-10-21 15:52
It sounds as if what is revealed in the Proskauer Rose investigation in the upcomming weeks to the MC will be quite a revelation that will probably seal any last attempts by the MC, or probably even other diocese, if not our OCA elders or lawyers to not take firm action with the OCA administration -- or so one would hope.
Patty Schellbach
Patty Schellbach
#15
Patty Schellbach
on
2006-10-21 21:07
The Kondratick lawsuit may have been dropped, but Halloween is coming, and time for the pagans to have ghosts and ghouls arise from the dead. So, what's to stop the lawsuit (that is not really a lawsuit) from rising again? Perhaps some of Fr. Kondratick's friends and supporters took exception to being named as defendents. Perhaps persuasion was applied. The lawsuit could come back as a suit filed only by Matushka Kondratick, and with a revised list of defendents. We were told the OCA would issue a press release last week, following the withdrawal of the original pleading, but no press release was forthcoming. Perhaps this week the OCA will comment, unless they are waiting for the "other shoe to drop." As we all ought to do. Cate
#16
Cate
on
2006-10-22 11:33
I believe THE KONDRATICK'S will have the last laugh. The investigation is over and the note will be recalled. CHECKMATE !!!
Our Lord somewhere or other commands us to "Search the Scriptures", and this is always useful in better understanding
the "context" of our Sunday Gospels (the from where and the
to where), as with this Sunday's "Rich Man and Lazarus" parable (Luke 16: 19-31).
To whom, what audience was Christ speaking this? In Luke 16: 14-15 we see that He was addressing Pharisees, avaricious at heart, who were scoffing at Him. To which He replies: "Ye are they which would justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God".
And even before this, in Luke 16: 10-11, we find Our Lord vexing them by saying, "He that is trustworthy in that which is least tends also to be trustworthy also in the much; he that is dishonest in the modicum tends also to be dishonest in the major. If therefore ye have not been trustworthy even in the iniquity of mammon, who would commit to your trust the genuine riches?"
Wondering, just wondering, whether any of this has any relevance and bearing to the OCA's current situation? And why things are the way they are, from the top. Sign me anon,
Just Wondering
the "context" of our Sunday Gospels (the from where and the
to where), as with this Sunday's "Rich Man and Lazarus" parable (Luke 16: 19-31).
To whom, what audience was Christ speaking this? In Luke 16: 14-15 we see that He was addressing Pharisees, avaricious at heart, who were scoffing at Him. To which He replies: "Ye are they which would justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God".
And even before this, in Luke 16: 10-11, we find Our Lord vexing them by saying, "He that is trustworthy in that which is least tends also to be trustworthy also in the much; he that is dishonest in the modicum tends also to be dishonest in the major. If therefore ye have not been trustworthy even in the iniquity of mammon, who would commit to your trust the genuine riches?"
Wondering, just wondering, whether any of this has any relevance and bearing to the OCA's current situation? And why things are the way they are, from the top. Sign me anon,
Just Wondering
#17
Name withheld
on
2006-10-22 12:11
I'm greatly gladdened to see the compilation report vs budget for the six months ended June 30, 2006 posted on the OCA website on October 16, 2006.
For a full criticism of the organization, this date is late by about 66 days, but it is good news nonetheless that the church is being forthright. It does appear that the issue I've mentioned before about budgeted bequests/contributions being interestingly large has been addressed in some fashion, although the language in the compilation report is unusual to me. The budget was 540k, the actuals are about 49k.
An additional criticism is that as church, it shouldn't really require 3rd party support to do this for a small 4.2M budget (now, more like 3.7M), but understandibly, this was a mess and coming out of a mess does take some doing.
An additional criticism is that forecasting is necessary. Forecasts help determine the course for the future. If the forecast were extremely bleak, for example, for some great legal obligations for sex abuse claims, etc. The church could be forthright about this expectation with all of us. It doesn't even need to be that kind of scandalous stuff. It could be severe wind damage requiring uninsured repairs of $400k to a building, etc. that would need forecasting, or a revenue stream could have ended unexpectedly, etc. A forecast is required for good financial management of an organization. It is basically a revised budget. Forecasting would make it so the verbage on the bequests/contributions would not be required I believe as well.
An additional criticism is that other organizations have their financial information in one place where anyone can find it. At present, the information the OCA has distributed requires going through press releases to find. This is not acceptable long term for an organization that wishes to be proactive about financing and sourcing donations. Donors need ready access to how the organization spends money. For an objective example, I would never give to the stocking fund because I don't know if it was paid out last year at this juncture.
I'd like to offer my congratulations to the administration for moving in the right direction; finally. I pray that the administration continue on this path for the benefit of everyone.
I believe, that in the long run, openness and forthrightness on the part of the administration will result in even greater things for the OCA, like people pledging to the OCA in their wills, etc. Before this scandal, I never would have considered giving to the OCA in a will. Depending upon how well the administration recovers and how open the organization becomes, I'd consider it a strong possibility that I'd will something to them in the future. I'm not wealthy, but if the church would do something wise with the contribution (like support mission churches), I'd give.
Further, continued efforts at being open, honest, and forthright will be rewarded not by me, but by many.
Further still, these efforts rapidly destroy my anger at the incompetancy that has been shown by many in this matter. That alone should be highly valued.
For a full criticism of the organization, this date is late by about 66 days, but it is good news nonetheless that the church is being forthright. It does appear that the issue I've mentioned before about budgeted bequests/contributions being interestingly large has been addressed in some fashion, although the language in the compilation report is unusual to me. The budget was 540k, the actuals are about 49k.
An additional criticism is that as church, it shouldn't really require 3rd party support to do this for a small 4.2M budget (now, more like 3.7M), but understandibly, this was a mess and coming out of a mess does take some doing.
An additional criticism is that forecasting is necessary. Forecasts help determine the course for the future. If the forecast were extremely bleak, for example, for some great legal obligations for sex abuse claims, etc. The church could be forthright about this expectation with all of us. It doesn't even need to be that kind of scandalous stuff. It could be severe wind damage requiring uninsured repairs of $400k to a building, etc. that would need forecasting, or a revenue stream could have ended unexpectedly, etc. A forecast is required for good financial management of an organization. It is basically a revised budget. Forecasting would make it so the verbage on the bequests/contributions would not be required I believe as well.
An additional criticism is that other organizations have their financial information in one place where anyone can find it. At present, the information the OCA has distributed requires going through press releases to find. This is not acceptable long term for an organization that wishes to be proactive about financing and sourcing donations. Donors need ready access to how the organization spends money. For an objective example, I would never give to the stocking fund because I don't know if it was paid out last year at this juncture.
I'd like to offer my congratulations to the administration for moving in the right direction; finally. I pray that the administration continue on this path for the benefit of everyone.
I believe, that in the long run, openness and forthrightness on the part of the administration will result in even greater things for the OCA, like people pledging to the OCA in their wills, etc. Before this scandal, I never would have considered giving to the OCA in a will. Depending upon how well the administration recovers and how open the organization becomes, I'd consider it a strong possibility that I'd will something to them in the future. I'm not wealthy, but if the church would do something wise with the contribution (like support mission churches), I'd give.
Further, continued efforts at being open, honest, and forthright will be rewarded not by me, but by many.
Further still, these efforts rapidly destroy my anger at the incompetancy that has been shown by many in this matter. That alone should be highly valued.
#18
Daniel E. Fall
on
2006-10-23 11:06
The phone rang and I was called to it. I rang in a home in Seymour Ct. where I and my children had traveled after the death a day earlier of my wife, while I was a student as seminary at St. Tikhon's. The home was my mother-in-laws. We were numb with pain. The voice on the telephone was that of Fr. Robert Kondratick and he wanted to offer his comfort and let me speak to our Metropolitan THEODOSIUS who was traveling. They had taken the time out of their busy days to contact me, a first-year seminarian and it meant much. It still does. And only two days later then Bishop Herman, then rector of the seminary I attended, and then Bishop Job, my bishop, and seminarians and clergy would travel through poor weather to come to my wife's funeral. They all sought to comfort us; they all shared their love; as did the greater community at St. Tikhon's when I would return to school. These are personal moments, and there have been others throughout the years, when these same persons reached out to me in different ways, when I had different problems. I do not always share all that is personal, but I thought they might serve some purpose when I hear many of these same caring and thoughtful persons villified by others, and talked about without love and respect. And for those who may not have had similar personal experiences we still remember Christ's words not to love only those who do good to us. It pains me to hear some of the commentary about our beloved Church. Cannot we take a more positive approach?
#19
Archpriest William DuBovik
on
2006-10-25 08:41
I am glad for you, Fr. William, that you were comforted during your time of great grief by both then-Bp. Herman and then-Chancellor Fr. Kondratick. I and others, unfortunately, have had very different personal experiences with them, ranging from bullying to being ignored for years on end (by our Chancellor and/or hierarch). Despite my negative experiences, I do pray for them.
Lord have mercy on me, a sinner!
Lord have mercy on me, a sinner!
#19.1
Anonymous
on
2006-10-25 11:30
The author does not allow comments to this entry
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