Monday, September 17. 2007
Fr. Berzonsky's Report
Your thoughts on Fr. Berzonsky's comments are welcome.
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Well, right about now, I am beginning to lose interest – and that is very, very bad. There must be more people like me out there. I just can’t stay with a church that refuses to be forthcoming and treats people so poorly. Mr. Nescott is removed? Paul Sidebottom is fired? Fr. Isadore remains in charge of a seminary? Eric Wheeler is trashed? +Job is harassed? 9/11 funds have gone missing ? Fr Kucynda writes a condescending letter? There is so much more than this small listing, and still no relief in site. It seems that the church is simply going to ignore the sexual indiscretions. That is not good – not good at all! So is it okay with Met Herman and Fr Kucynda that all that went on? That is not okay with me. They simply won’t resign or retire or anything. I guess there is too much at stake with them. I still can’t understand why there is no civil investigation. I read all the time my newspaper about someone embezzling $50,000, $80,000, and the prosecutor is right on it. Why not this time? Why is it so hard to prosecute people for embezzling in New York? Well, since nothing is being done after almost 2 years, then I have to seriously think about this. And so I am disgusted with the Geezas and the Monk James (or whatever he/she is) and anonymous with their vile pronouncements about the awful people like Mark and +Job and Nescott and Wheeler, and the posters who tell us about the marvelous Mr. Kondratick. They don’t seem to care at all about what has been compromised in the church. I suspect that after awhile more people like Rebecca and others including myself simply will have to mourn the passing of the OCA and give it up for dead. For that is what is seems like it is now. Simply dead. No moral life at all. Just one light in the darkness, +Job. There may be more, but I haven’t heard from them. What about the other bishops? I guess all this is okay with them since I don’t hear their voices. I don’t know them so I can’t truly judge them, but I also don’t hear them at all. Just silence. Won’t even one come forward besides +Job and say we must do the right thing? Won't any others say we must proceed with the investigation? How can so many "holy" men not speak up when a wrong is committed. Is it okay with them if there WERE sexual indescretions and money was spent on that? Is that what you, the other bishops, are teaching us? Well, I don't think I can support you. I don't know why there are not others of you that will speak up to do the right thing.
#1
A sad state of affairs
on
2007-09-17 16:00
Wonderful call to arms Fr. Berzonsky. Now lets see if the Faithful have the will to follow. In the past they did not wish to be awakened from their slumber. We can only hope and pray that there are at least a Gideon's 300 left to fight the good fight.
#2
Anon.
on
2007-09-17 16:25
To the faithful:
I have taken several risks in blogging on this site to not incur the retribution of those who would see to obfuscate justice and truth. I have not taken these risks lightly or with pleasure. P-L-E-A-S-E let us all support justice and truth and don't let one person of good will, including our several whistleblowers, to go without knowing what good they are doing for our church.
To Fr. Berzonsky:
I love your spirit of wanting to GET IT RIGHT within the OCA so we have an OCA to function within! Thank you for your spirt of bravery and courage to help the OCA get it right!
To what is left of the Special Comission:
P-L-E-A-S-E GO to Syosset and report to us what you were physically able to get your hands on or not. GO to Syosset. DRIVE, FLY, WALK, RUN! BE PHYSICALLY present and obtain all the records you have the right to!
You are the investigators of the financial stabiliy of the OCA. If the doors, files, and records are barred and locked, get a locksmith to get them unlocked. You were given a vote of confidence to get this information and make report back to the HS, MC, and us faitful. Who can accuse you of "trespassing?" Is Syosset deeded to one lone individual? Is not Syssset deeded to the Orthodox Church in America, of which the Special Comission is certainly part of and was given several votes of confidence from the MC and HS to get said information about our current debacle?
If any authorized Special Comission person is blocked from getting documents, CONTINUE to report all these barriers back to us faithful, MC, and HS so we make that much stronger vote of "no confidence" for this current OCA administration.
Do I not have a right to those financial records? It was my money, too, that was mispent. What is to preclude me, or any other faithful, from going to Syosset and getting a record of where their money went.
The recent resignation of several of the Special Comission does not bode well for +Herman and those that do not leave from the old guard. The resignation is basically saying they have no confidence in him because he is not allowing them to do their job, to report back to people, like me, who need authorized advocates in all this mess.
Their resignation should put +Herman on notice that this is not over yet. I can't see the Diocese of the Midwest being happy with the recent events of the resignation of +JOB et al. in this fiasco.
The abuse of power must stop.
Patty Schellbach
I have taken several risks in blogging on this site to not incur the retribution of those who would see to obfuscate justice and truth. I have not taken these risks lightly or with pleasure. P-L-E-A-S-E let us all support justice and truth and don't let one person of good will, including our several whistleblowers, to go without knowing what good they are doing for our church.
To Fr. Berzonsky:
I love your spirit of wanting to GET IT RIGHT within the OCA so we have an OCA to function within! Thank you for your spirt of bravery and courage to help the OCA get it right!
To what is left of the Special Comission:
P-L-E-A-S-E GO to Syosset and report to us what you were physically able to get your hands on or not. GO to Syosset. DRIVE, FLY, WALK, RUN! BE PHYSICALLY present and obtain all the records you have the right to!
You are the investigators of the financial stabiliy of the OCA. If the doors, files, and records are barred and locked, get a locksmith to get them unlocked. You were given a vote of confidence to get this information and make report back to the HS, MC, and us faitful. Who can accuse you of "trespassing?" Is Syosset deeded to one lone individual? Is not Syssset deeded to the Orthodox Church in America, of which the Special Comission is certainly part of and was given several votes of confidence from the MC and HS to get said information about our current debacle?
If any authorized Special Comission person is blocked from getting documents, CONTINUE to report all these barriers back to us faithful, MC, and HS so we make that much stronger vote of "no confidence" for this current OCA administration.
Do I not have a right to those financial records? It was my money, too, that was mispent. What is to preclude me, or any other faithful, from going to Syosset and getting a record of where their money went.
The recent resignation of several of the Special Comission does not bode well for +Herman and those that do not leave from the old guard. The resignation is basically saying they have no confidence in him because he is not allowing them to do their job, to report back to people, like me, who need authorized advocates in all this mess.
Their resignation should put +Herman on notice that this is not over yet. I can't see the Diocese of the Midwest being happy with the recent events of the resignation of +JOB et al. in this fiasco.
The abuse of power must stop.
Patty Schellbach
#3
Patty Schellbach
on
2007-09-17 16:36
Many thanks to Fr. Berzonsky for his words fo encouragement and calls for clarity and repentance. We write to one another - all concerned for the church we love.
Perhaps it is time now to inundate the Bishop's and the Metropolitan with mail, email, and phone calls. There is one message. "We want to know and we will not be silent or go away."
I may be a 'baba',' but I am an American one. We American 'babas' are not afraid to use our voices, our pens and our checkbooks to help our brothers in Christ wake up lest they lose their souls by leading us, the sheep of their folds, astray.
To hate is to willingly or apathetically allow them to perish. To love is to do everything in our power so that no soul is lost to the enemy - especially those leaders who we long to love.
May we have the courage to love them into the truth.
May God have mercy on all of us sinners, myself among the first.
Melissa
Perhaps it is time now to inundate the Bishop's and the Metropolitan with mail, email, and phone calls. There is one message. "We want to know and we will not be silent or go away."
I may be a 'baba',' but I am an American one. We American 'babas' are not afraid to use our voices, our pens and our checkbooks to help our brothers in Christ wake up lest they lose their souls by leading us, the sheep of their folds, astray.
To hate is to willingly or apathetically allow them to perish. To love is to do everything in our power so that no soul is lost to the enemy - especially those leaders who we long to love.
May we have the courage to love them into the truth.
May God have mercy on all of us sinners, myself among the first.
Melissa
Dear Patty,
The life of the Church in is your parish.
It is in your Diocese.
Syosset is nothing more than a "tit" on a bull, necessary for the life of the Church where it is really taking place.
Let Herman wear the white hat. Who cares? He is an emperor without clothes. He is an empty sakos.
Herman is a "non-person" and his sins will be exposed when he stands before His Lord and our Lord.
The life of the Church in is your parish.
It is in your Diocese.
Syosset is nothing more than a "tit" on a bull, necessary for the life of the Church where it is really taking place.
Let Herman wear the white hat. Who cares? He is an emperor without clothes. He is an empty sakos.
Herman is a "non-person" and his sins will be exposed when he stands before His Lord and our Lord.
#5
Anonymous
on
2007-09-17 19:08
Folks,
What we are witness to here is the slow painful death of the Orthodox Church in America.
With each letter from Kucynda or Met. Herman, is followed by an agonal breath.
Sad, sad times. It did not have to be this way.
Robert Holowach
What we are witness to here is the slow painful death of the Orthodox Church in America.
With each letter from Kucynda or Met. Herman, is followed by an agonal breath.
Sad, sad times. It did not have to be this way.
Robert Holowach
#6
Robert Holowach
on
2007-09-17 19:16
SPOT ON! BRILLIANT! Fr Vladimir's allusions are fantastic, his questions are paramount, and his insights are piercing.
MAH
MAH
#7
Mark Harrison
on
2007-09-17 19:28
On Friday we sang “...grant victories to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries;...” How sad that our adversaries are in the church. Walt Kelly first used the quote "We Have Met The Enemy and He Is Us." How fitting that it was used by his feigned comic strip character Pogo since it is also fitting for our own tragic and unreal situation in the church.
#8
Lizzie
on
2007-09-17 19:51
Our parish's annual meeting will be this Sunday and if this scandal is not on the agenda I would like to bring it up. Our deacon (I haven't yet spoken to our priest) suggested that I bring some resolutions to offer for the parish to discuss and vote on. Perhaps people contributing to this site could come up with several resolutions to offer to their parish assemblies, which in turn could be offered to the Diocesan assemblies next month. Perhaps if we could present more or less uniformly worded resolutions from across the entire OCA some momentum could be built. I am going to work on this over the next few days but will take for starting points the Midwest's benchmarks and the vote of no confidence in Met Herman.
#9
Rachel Andreyev
on
2007-09-17 20:16
How transparent can the 2008 AAC be if there will be no observers allowed at its proceedings, as has been stated several times by Syosset? Keeping it to delegates, clergy, and hierarchy essentially shuts off the council from the very sobornost it attempts to maintain. It's a shame.
#10
Anonymous
on
2007-09-17 20:47
There is nowhere to go, nowhere to run, nowhere to hide. Even if you attend services at a non-OCA church -- even if you move halfway around the world -- you cannot escape this issue any more than Jonah could run away from God. If you leave the OCA you might find a place where you can blissfully tune it all out, but tuning it out is not the right answer. As long as you confess one holy catholic and apostolic Church, this issue should nag at your conscience until you are compelled to action.
Persistence pays off. Remember the parable of the persistent widow? Just keep pestering God with your prayers and protests (and don't hesitate to "cc" those around you). Those who are fighting the good fight will find encouragement and support. And those who are resisting will continue to wrestle against God's judgment.
Eventually these prayers will be answered, but it may take a long time.
Persistence pays off. Remember the parable of the persistent widow? Just keep pestering God with your prayers and protests (and don't hesitate to "cc" those around you). Those who are fighting the good fight will find encouragement and support. And those who are resisting will continue to wrestle against God's judgment.
Eventually these prayers will be answered, but it may take a long time.
#11
Robert Vasilios Wachter
on
2007-09-17 22:58
It's so wonderful to have gifted Archpriests like Fr. Vladimir - thank God for him and those like him. In fact, all of those archpriests (in reality, mitered archpriests like married bishops) should be doing more to run the Church. These are our married bishops and why not? Fr. Vladimir, Fr. Thomas Hopko and many others who should be taking an active roll in the Synod of Bishops (SOB) and clean this mess up. First comes first, Kucynda & + Herman must step down. A locom tenens put in as metropolitan and an AAC with reports telling the truth to all the Church and the election of a new Metropolitan. Repentance, reconciliation and a REAL new beginning. Now THIS is the kind of church Frs. Schmemann & Meyendorff worked so hard to achieve!
#12
Anonymous
on
2007-09-18 06:40
Thank you Mr. Wachter. I really do appreciate your comments.
#13
A sad state of affairs
on
2007-09-18 06:47
This Sunday we were shown a graffito of the Crucifixion from the 1st century . Instead of the head of Christ there was the head of an ass. In the corner is a figure of a worshiping Christian. This is how the Romans saw the early Christians. In the context of Galatians and the Gospel we are asked to be willing to be called fools (asses) for Christ. In the context of this present crisis, precipitated as I commented earlier, by the abandonment of the Gospel on the part of our hierarch and his staff, we are also called to the same foolishness. What could be more foolish than Eric Wheeler's revelations, than Bishop Job's calling for the truth, or Fr. Vladimir's demands? Put in this perspective I see no reason for abandoning the OCA, or downheartedness. Personally I am willing to be seen as a complete jackass along with them. Peace, Alice
#14
Alice Carter
on
2007-09-18 07:16
Fr. Vladimir's reflection is masterful, spot-on and providential in that it is now rather than closer to the upcoming AAC.
Reflecting on Fr. Vladimir's comments as well as those of Fr. Ted Bobosh days earlier, I only wish that we could have the caliber of men as bishops that you find in these two priests. By their words they have cut through the morass of our scandal and its attendant obfuscations and with clarity stated the root problems and the necessary solutions.
Reflecting on Fr. Vladimir's comments as well as those of Fr. Ted Bobosh days earlier, I only wish that we could have the caliber of men as bishops that you find in these two priests. By their words they have cut through the morass of our scandal and its attendant obfuscations and with clarity stated the root problems and the necessary solutions.
#15
Terry C. Peet
on
2007-09-18 07:38
After quickly reading Fr. Berzonsky's statement, one has to wonder why would anyone, any Diocese or any organization send a dime to Syosset? His point about the charade at Toronto and OUR Orthodox church running out on the bill speaks LOUDLY. The administration knew the Midwest was questioning finances, they wouldn't let the Midwest raise the questions, and then they dined and dashed! Shameful! I can now only wonder if the other Bishops who have not taken a stand are also part of the game.
Lord have mercy!
Ken Kozak
Akron, OH
Lord have mercy!
Ken Kozak
Akron, OH
#16
Ken Kozak
on
2007-09-18 07:45
It is not necessarily true that no observers will be allowed at the AAC. They said it will be scaled down, which probably means that there will be no family events and side excursions, plus no grand banquet, etc etc
#17
Michael Strelka
on
2007-09-18 07:59
Excellent idea! Can you imagine if every parish discussed these issues and then voted on a resolution concerning truth, accountability and transparency? Although the resolutions may not have any power, I think the message would be very clear to the Synod. Personnally, I would like to see resolutions by individual parishes to withhold assesments. It has certainly been controversial at our parish, where it has been overuled by the Council since it "violates" the bylaws of the Diocese. Now the Council has erected a facade and passed it off as "Best Practices" to allow for a third authorized signer, but only two required signatures on checks. Why not make it best 2 out of 7? Anyone with an appreciation of Best Practices would understand that the goal is to increase accountability, not reduce it.
We could follow the Midwest resolutions, but I'm looking forward to what everyone else is thinking. Great idea!
Ken Kozak
Akron, OH
We could follow the Midwest resolutions, but I'm looking forward to what everyone else is thinking. Great idea!
Ken Kozak
Akron, OH
#18
Ken Kozak
on
2007-09-18 08:17
Well, I'll put the question out there. Are there any other bishops, besides +Job, that has spoken? Does anyone know of any other OCA bishops who has stood up for what is right and just? It's a bit funny that the rest appear to be silent, but perhaps that is simply a misconception that I have. Has anyone heard anything from any other bishops regarding the multitude of messes the OCA is involved in? If we cannot even get one other bishop to stand up, then what ARE the bishops doing? Do they think everything is okay as it is?
#19
A sad state of affairs
on
2007-09-18 08:40
After reading the reports by Fathers Bobosh and Berzonsky, it is apparent, that most of the members in the OCA want our CHURCH to survive.
The easiest way to get Herman and all of his group to leave is to cut off their oxygen supply, "money"!
CUT OFF THE MONEY!
Steve Babish
St. James - Bbother of the Lord
Kansas City, MO
cell: 816-853-8685
The easiest way to get Herman and all of his group to leave is to cut off their oxygen supply, "money"!
CUT OFF THE MONEY!
Steve Babish
St. James - Bbother of the Lord
Kansas City, MO
cell: 816-853-8685
Some thoughts...
I am very doubtful that we will see an All-American Council next summer. It is no secret that the Metropolitan and Fr. Kucynda will receive anything but a warm reception as they ascend the podium. I even have heard recently that there may be an organized effort to shout "ANAXIOS!" during the Metropolitan's address. It would be quite sad if things came to that.
Whatever happens, it is clear that Dr. Woog's "wonderful audience" of 2005 will be anything but wonderful or an audience. The clergy and the faithful of this church are quite agitated and will no doubt reach a boiling point by next August should things continue in their present course. Although there may be no "observers" at the proceedings, there will be plenty of camera phones and other devices to capture this potential soul-destroying melee.
If, as some have speculated to me privately, the Metropolitan feigns an illness to excuse himself from the Council, (thus avoiding direct confrontation and rendering the Council's decisions subject to nullification by the him after the fact) it will only serve to raise the climate of discontent. Nothing short the Metropolitan's retirement announcement and Fr. Kucynda's resignation by the time of the Council will serve to calm the crowd. Only then, with God's help, can the hard work of reconciliation and rebuilding begin.
It mystifies me why we have come to this point? Why is it necessary for respected clergy like Fr. Berzonsky to make these impassioned pleas to our faithful after previously being greeted by deaf ears among the leadership? Who are their teachers? Where are their confessors? Have they no fear of God? Do lawyers now trump the godly counsels of the Scriptures?
The only conclusion I can make is that either the leadership is grossly out of touch with reality, or that the civil authorities are rapidly closing in on them. An air of panic (CYA) seems to permeate from every message posted on the OCA website leading me to suspect it is the latter. Either way, I fail to see "the good of the church" being served. On the one hand I see the good of the Metropolitan and Fr. Kucynda being served by building a "firewall" around them, while on the other hand, I see the church being irreparably damaged by the images of our leaders being led to black sedans with raincoats over their heads.
If the Metropolitan or Fr. Kucynda could explain to us exactly how this current course of action serves "the good of the church" I, and many others with me, would gladly receive it. You both have a forum right here... please avail yourselves of it for our benefit.
It is my sincere hope that recent resignation of the members of the Special Investigative Commission reflects their desire to disassociate themselves from the soon-to-be-released "redacted" report. A report which, from recent, pronouncements, will seek to place all culpability on Robert Kondratick and deflect attention away from others who share responsibility for this mess. As far as many of us are concerned, their collective resignations have already cast a pall of suspicion upon the report's veracity.
In XC,
Priest Robert
I am very doubtful that we will see an All-American Council next summer. It is no secret that the Metropolitan and Fr. Kucynda will receive anything but a warm reception as they ascend the podium. I even have heard recently that there may be an organized effort to shout "ANAXIOS!" during the Metropolitan's address. It would be quite sad if things came to that.
Whatever happens, it is clear that Dr. Woog's "wonderful audience" of 2005 will be anything but wonderful or an audience. The clergy and the faithful of this church are quite agitated and will no doubt reach a boiling point by next August should things continue in their present course. Although there may be no "observers" at the proceedings, there will be plenty of camera phones and other devices to capture this potential soul-destroying melee.
If, as some have speculated to me privately, the Metropolitan feigns an illness to excuse himself from the Council, (thus avoiding direct confrontation and rendering the Council's decisions subject to nullification by the him after the fact) it will only serve to raise the climate of discontent. Nothing short the Metropolitan's retirement announcement and Fr. Kucynda's resignation by the time of the Council will serve to calm the crowd. Only then, with God's help, can the hard work of reconciliation and rebuilding begin.
It mystifies me why we have come to this point? Why is it necessary for respected clergy like Fr. Berzonsky to make these impassioned pleas to our faithful after previously being greeted by deaf ears among the leadership? Who are their teachers? Where are their confessors? Have they no fear of God? Do lawyers now trump the godly counsels of the Scriptures?
The only conclusion I can make is that either the leadership is grossly out of touch with reality, or that the civil authorities are rapidly closing in on them. An air of panic (CYA) seems to permeate from every message posted on the OCA website leading me to suspect it is the latter. Either way, I fail to see "the good of the church" being served. On the one hand I see the good of the Metropolitan and Fr. Kucynda being served by building a "firewall" around them, while on the other hand, I see the church being irreparably damaged by the images of our leaders being led to black sedans with raincoats over their heads.
If the Metropolitan or Fr. Kucynda could explain to us exactly how this current course of action serves "the good of the church" I, and many others with me, would gladly receive it. You both have a forum right here... please avail yourselves of it for our benefit.
It is my sincere hope that recent resignation of the members of the Special Investigative Commission reflects their desire to disassociate themselves from the soon-to-be-released "redacted" report. A report which, from recent, pronouncements, will seek to place all culpability on Robert Kondratick and deflect attention away from others who share responsibility for this mess. As far as many of us are concerned, their collective resignations have already cast a pall of suspicion upon the report's veracity.
In XC,
Priest Robert
Mark - please post this anonymously. Thank you.
"When your parish is in the Met+ diocese the parish life sometimes is not that great. Without any leadership for years and years, individual parish priests have done pretty much whatever they want without any guidance and some like it that way just fine. Others fortunately do not. Not once in any way shape or manner has this whole mess been discussed anywhere in our church by the priest or parish council. We continue to lose members and no one seems to care. I'm just biding my time and waiting. Without complete disclosure, I will not continue financial support and will look for a new church affiliation. How very sad and oh so tragic"
This is the church I was born into and baptised in and one I had hoped to be buried out of."
"When your parish is in the Met+ diocese the parish life sometimes is not that great. Without any leadership for years and years, individual parish priests have done pretty much whatever they want without any guidance and some like it that way just fine. Others fortunately do not. Not once in any way shape or manner has this whole mess been discussed anywhere in our church by the priest or parish council. We continue to lose members and no one seems to care. I'm just biding my time and waiting. Without complete disclosure, I will not continue financial support and will look for a new church affiliation. How very sad and oh so tragic"
This is the church I was born into and baptised in and one I had hoped to be buried out of."
#22
Anonymous
on
2007-09-18 10:19
Fr. Berzonsky has added eloquently to the mountain of words that have already been written. But his solution relies on the faithfulness of Met. Herman and the Holy Synod -- proven avoiders of truth or action, and men with much to lose if the OCA regains Her life.
Have we not yet learned that Met. Herman and his inner circle don't care about words, threats, calls to action, no matter how eloquent? In a bizarre power-grab, the Metropolitan has flicked away the Holy Synod, the Metropolitan Council, the Investigative Committee and every other inconvenient group or individual who has petitioned him for a return to personal and corporate sanity.
Fr. Vladimir, don't you get it? You are on the MC and it is paralyzed because of the Metropolitan. You are on the Investigative Committee and it is near death because of the Metropolitan. You are a respected, educated, experienced and articulate Archpriest and the Metropolitan renders you impotent. If nothing else changes, do you really expect him and the Synod to do your bidding in this matter: to set up a real AAC that will be full of light and fresh air? Does anyone really believe this will happen if nothing else changes?
Fr. Vladimir, your eloquent report falls flat when it doesn't call for action that will truly move the issue. It lacks teeth. It provides no reason for the administration to move against themselves; their most advantageous course remains inaction. To succeed before AAC 08 and a credible recreation of Forgiveness Sunday, the starting power must be placed into the hands of those whose most advantageous course is action which will topple the firewalls. These are the clergy and faithful who must take this up and get it done! Otherwise, it will not happen!
What the Metropolitan and the Slyosset inner circle do care about--what moves them--is money (how sad, but true). The only recourse that can even make a dent is money (even sadder, truer and even slimy). Only a massive, Church-wide withholding of funds has any hope of forcing their hands, and the rest of them, out of hiding and into the light.
For the love of God, OCA, it is time to cut off the funds from every corner of America, with Holy Trinity Church, Parma, OH leading the way.
BLM
......
Have we not yet learned that Met. Herman and his inner circle don't care about words, threats, calls to action, no matter how eloquent? In a bizarre power-grab, the Metropolitan has flicked away the Holy Synod, the Metropolitan Council, the Investigative Committee and every other inconvenient group or individual who has petitioned him for a return to personal and corporate sanity.
Fr. Vladimir, don't you get it? You are on the MC and it is paralyzed because of the Metropolitan. You are on the Investigative Committee and it is near death because of the Metropolitan. You are a respected, educated, experienced and articulate Archpriest and the Metropolitan renders you impotent. If nothing else changes, do you really expect him and the Synod to do your bidding in this matter: to set up a real AAC that will be full of light and fresh air? Does anyone really believe this will happen if nothing else changes?
Fr. Vladimir, your eloquent report falls flat when it doesn't call for action that will truly move the issue. It lacks teeth. It provides no reason for the administration to move against themselves; their most advantageous course remains inaction. To succeed before AAC 08 and a credible recreation of Forgiveness Sunday, the starting power must be placed into the hands of those whose most advantageous course is action which will topple the firewalls. These are the clergy and faithful who must take this up and get it done! Otherwise, it will not happen!
What the Metropolitan and the Slyosset inner circle do care about--what moves them--is money (how sad, but true). The only recourse that can even make a dent is money (even sadder, truer and even slimy). Only a massive, Church-wide withholding of funds has any hope of forcing their hands, and the rest of them, out of hiding and into the light.
For the love of God, OCA, it is time to cut off the funds from every corner of America, with Holy Trinity Church, Parma, OH leading the way.
BLM
......
#23
BLM
on
2007-09-18 10:25
Why are all the other bishops of the OCA silent on this issue? Why are so many of our theologians still silent on this enormous crisis? We have so many prophetic and wise clergy speaking out, but so many still remain silent! If this is not the time for all to speak and help the flock and restore truth, ethics, and righteousness to our Holy Orthodox Church, then when?
What is the point of having theologians, writers, teachers, speakers, elders and deans when they shy away from the spiritual battle and fail to walk the talk themselves? At precisely the moment their wisdom, guidance, and leadership is needed most so many remain silent and do not take a public stance and continuously speak to the people and lead us out of this darkness. If for nothing else, at least for comfort and support these elders and theologians MUST speak and speak publicly to the entire church. The battel rages and the time for timidity and fear and silence has long past. WE NEED YOU! The CHURCH NEEDS YOU! CHRIST NEEDS YOU to shine the light of Truth and Wisdom in the chaos and darkness that surrounds us.
What is the point of having theologians, writers, teachers, speakers, elders and deans when they shy away from the spiritual battle and fail to walk the talk themselves? At precisely the moment their wisdom, guidance, and leadership is needed most so many remain silent and do not take a public stance and continuously speak to the people and lead us out of this darkness. If for nothing else, at least for comfort and support these elders and theologians MUST speak and speak publicly to the entire church. The battel rages and the time for timidity and fear and silence has long past. WE NEED YOU! The CHURCH NEEDS YOU! CHRIST NEEDS YOU to shine the light of Truth and Wisdom in the chaos and darkness that surrounds us.
Yes, and I will add-that we are a parish states away from your diocese and we are doing the same thing. This website is slandered and the parish priest refuses to discuss the matter at all in any meeting. Everyone has their own interests and when push comes to shove-it is not about Christ, The Church, His teachings or unconditional love for one another. It is said that we have been taught what is right and wrong all our lives and when we have a chance to do the right thing...we throw it away for favor, pensions, going along to get along!
Fr. Schmemann referred to the laity as "the sleeping giant"...sleepers awake! The time is now! It is not time to leave, but rather time to speak out and speak up. We have all been taught what is right or wrong and no one can twist the truth enough to make us believe we are not seeing and hearing what we are seeing and hearing. O Lord Save they people.
Fr. Schmemann referred to the laity as "the sleeping giant"...sleepers awake! The time is now! It is not time to leave, but rather time to speak out and speak up. We have all been taught what is right or wrong and no one can twist the truth enough to make us believe we are not seeing and hearing what we are seeing and hearing. O Lord Save they people.
#25
Carpathia
on
2007-09-18 11:21
I am glad you also mentioned this Chris. Okay, so another person asking this same question. So who else out there is asking this question? Has anyone heard anything from any other bishops besides +Job? Does any other bishop wish to share with us their insight as to the mess the church is in or at the very least indicate to us that the wrongs are being addressed? What bothers me so much is that I'll bet many of them think this web site is the problem, and if it would just go away, they could get on with their business. But the problem is not this website! The problems are real and in the church! If +Job is mistreated in any way, that would be an indication that the OCA bishops continue to malign and mistreat anyone who is asking for truth. You may think I am only one person, but there may be many out there who are carefully watching the actions of the bishops.
#26
A sad state of affairs
on
2007-09-18 12:05
To give you some idea of what one of the bishops is saying. The bishop of the south called the scandal something like ...."idle chatter" when he declined to discuss the matter at the recent diocesan assembly. Does that give you a clue as to where he stands? And for his right hand man , who does he have to advise him? Well, Fr. Joseph Fester, of Kondratick administation fame. Syosset NORTH has now become Dallas SOUTH.
#27
nicholas skovran
on
2007-09-18 12:07
What strikes me frequently is that the Metropolitan does not have the authority to do much of what he has been doing. It can only be done, he can only have the "authority," if others allow it.
Who said to the Met, "Hey, Met ... you don't have the authority to remove Gregg from the MC." (Yes, he was put back on ... but (a) it was roundabout and (b) he was not actually put back on, he never was off ... the purported "removal" should have simply been ignored because, in fact, it NEVER HAPPENED.) (Why did not every bishop in the land object aloud?)
Who on the MC contacted Proskauer Rose and sent them a copy of the Statute highlighting the powers of the MC and the Met and said, "Hey! Yous guys ... you are NOT hired until WE say so. Take a hike!"
The Met can only usurp extra-canonical authority not enumerated to him in the Statute if others allow it.
So, stop.
And, Synod ... why are you waiting to remove the man who has wrought destruction on the OCA, and obviously is so indifferent that there can be no mistake of his willingness to not stop until there is nothing left but unpeopled brick-and-mortar temples dotting the American landscape bearing those quaint three-barred crosses that look so pretty against the dusk sky, their parking lots overgrown with weeds, their former pastors without income or even pensions, their futures in the hands of some monied schismatic Episcopal group that needs a new place to ordain cats, or to be plowed over for a new condo development or a Starbucks?
If an AAC is to be eschatologically minded, healthy, holy, honest, loving, meaningful, open, productive, ... then the leadership --- GOING INTO the AAC not coming out of it --- needs to be that.
Why would the Synod be sitting on this? Do they have their own unshared information? Or, is it that we Orthodox, esp. our bishops, move to change slowly? Maybe the latter, and maybe that's wise. On the other hand, the writing sure does seem to be on the wall. Maybe its time to make sure the lamp of the OCA is filled with the oil of Godly leadership ... before its too late.
Who said to the Met, "Hey, Met ... you don't have the authority to remove Gregg from the MC." (Yes, he was put back on ... but (a) it was roundabout and (b) he was not actually put back on, he never was off ... the purported "removal" should have simply been ignored because, in fact, it NEVER HAPPENED.) (Why did not every bishop in the land object aloud?)
Who on the MC contacted Proskauer Rose and sent them a copy of the Statute highlighting the powers of the MC and the Met and said, "Hey! Yous guys ... you are NOT hired until WE say so. Take a hike!"
The Met can only usurp extra-canonical authority not enumerated to him in the Statute if others allow it.
So, stop.
And, Synod ... why are you waiting to remove the man who has wrought destruction on the OCA, and obviously is so indifferent that there can be no mistake of his willingness to not stop until there is nothing left but unpeopled brick-and-mortar temples dotting the American landscape bearing those quaint three-barred crosses that look so pretty against the dusk sky, their parking lots overgrown with weeds, their former pastors without income or even pensions, their futures in the hands of some monied schismatic Episcopal group that needs a new place to ordain cats, or to be plowed over for a new condo development or a Starbucks?
If an AAC is to be eschatologically minded, healthy, holy, honest, loving, meaningful, open, productive, ... then the leadership --- GOING INTO the AAC not coming out of it --- needs to be that.
Why would the Synod be sitting on this? Do they have their own unshared information? Or, is it that we Orthodox, esp. our bishops, move to change slowly? Maybe the latter, and maybe that's wise. On the other hand, the writing sure does seem to be on the wall. Maybe its time to make sure the lamp of the OCA is filled with the oil of Godly leadership ... before its too late.
#28
Anonymous
on
2007-09-18 13:02
Chris,
We have YOU to tell us what to do.
We have YOU to tell us what to do.
#29
Anonymous
on
2007-09-18 13:16
This latest reflection is a wonderful reminder ofall of the recent hideous actions over the past couple of years. As others have said, this web site is not the problem and in fact it may offer part of the solution. The only real way to drive the priest Kucynda and Metr. Herman out is by starving them financially.
As a priest and just an ordinary human being who believes in Christ, I am deeply saddened by what Metr. Herman and others have done. As if the acts by the former Syosset regime weren't bad enough these tactics over the past year have had incredibly devastating effects on the souls of hundreds if not thousands of souls.
Here is a fairly simple way to starve the cancer out, simply stop giving money to your church and priest unless it is used for direct expenses and you can clearly identify that the funds were used for those purposes. Hand the priest a check with his name on it, buy the coffee, donuts and Sunday school supplies yourself but don't put money into your church checking account if there is any chance it is to be considered in the assessments. I would also suggest that you put whatever money you would have given in a bank account. It may be another year but simply hold onto the money until the right time to release it.
I have thought long and hard about what this will do to things like the seminaries, mission activities, etc. and it is most likey going to cause a great deal of pain. Well the body of Christ's Holy Church is already suffering and keeping the status quo is not going to fix anything. The bishops of the Holy Synod will wake up eventually but they, too, have not felt the pain. When all of the bishops can't put gas in their cars or pay their utilitiy bills then you will have gotten their attention.
On a personal note I have thought and prayed long and hard about what is the best course of action. I have quietly advocated for change to my bishop and yet nothing has happened. In fact, the problems have multiplied.
Send a message, turn out the lights and amazing changes will occur.
With love in Christ,
Unworthy priest
As a priest and just an ordinary human being who believes in Christ, I am deeply saddened by what Metr. Herman and others have done. As if the acts by the former Syosset regime weren't bad enough these tactics over the past year have had incredibly devastating effects on the souls of hundreds if not thousands of souls.
Here is a fairly simple way to starve the cancer out, simply stop giving money to your church and priest unless it is used for direct expenses and you can clearly identify that the funds were used for those purposes. Hand the priest a check with his name on it, buy the coffee, donuts and Sunday school supplies yourself but don't put money into your church checking account if there is any chance it is to be considered in the assessments. I would also suggest that you put whatever money you would have given in a bank account. It may be another year but simply hold onto the money until the right time to release it.
I have thought long and hard about what this will do to things like the seminaries, mission activities, etc. and it is most likey going to cause a great deal of pain. Well the body of Christ's Holy Church is already suffering and keeping the status quo is not going to fix anything. The bishops of the Holy Synod will wake up eventually but they, too, have not felt the pain. When all of the bishops can't put gas in their cars or pay their utilitiy bills then you will have gotten their attention.
On a personal note I have thought and prayed long and hard about what is the best course of action. I have quietly advocated for change to my bishop and yet nothing has happened. In fact, the problems have multiplied.
Send a message, turn out the lights and amazing changes will occur.
With love in Christ,
Unworthy priest
#30
Anon. Priest in the West
on
2007-09-18 13:29
Hey Rachel! [virtual wave ~ ~ to an old friend]
Getting some kind of resolution at your parish meeting is an excellent idea.
Some thoughts on the kind of resolutions that might be desirable [with a debt to suggestions from others in private correspondence]:
+ Mirroring the Midwest Diocese and stating that the parish will withhold the portion of the assessments due to Syosset pending ... conditions as laid out in original Palatine resolution.
+ Expressing "no confidence" in the Metropolitan -- should be worded as sorrow at his silence and inaction, rather than as accusation. Should point out the harm being done to the Church by the stalling, and also point out that the harm if issues are left unaddressed will be far greater than if things are faced publicly [need to explicitly negate the "for the good of the church, forget and move on" line of thought]
+ Expressing the sense of the parish that the lack of communication is harming the church and calling on your diocesan hierarch to share his thoughts on the crisis and to report regularly on his understanding of what is going on.
These are organized from more stringent to less deliberately. If one is not passable, move on to the next. The last one is simple, clean, expresses concern, and really could not be offensive to anyone. My personal preference would be for withholding -- but getting some statement on record from the parish meeting is important even if withholding can't be acheived.
I think it's also important how these resolutions are introduced to the assembled parish and how they are viewed. They can be offered as a positive alternative to destructive gossiping and grousing about things. So either they would be offered after some expression of discontent as a way to short-circuit a discussion that gets contentious, or, probably better, be offered as a way to pre-empt some of the less constructive stuff … along the lines of “a lot of us are concerned, and rather than indulging in rumor-mongering, speculation, criticism and judgment, we’d like to suggest a straightforward and simple way of expressing our collective concerns.”
At all costs those of us who are deeply concerned about these issues must not play into the hands of those who would paint us as enemies of the church and bomb-throwers.
That DOES NOT mean not pressing hard, that does not mean inactivity, that does not mean ignoring issues ... it does mean confronting the issues from the framework of the church and a Christian perspective -- talking about the only possible solutions [transparency and accountability] as the positive steps that they truly are, as the acts of Christian repentence that Fr. Berzonsky so eloquently calls us to.
There's much, much more than money at stake here. The harm we have suffered over the past 20 years is so much more than financial. The whole culture of church life has been distorted. Priests have been forced into soul-destroying games by the administration. Distortions have crept in many, many aspects of our church life. It's time to face it and to fix it -- none of us are innocent and only through honest, heartfelt repentance can we move forward.
Rebecca
Getting some kind of resolution at your parish meeting is an excellent idea.
Some thoughts on the kind of resolutions that might be desirable [with a debt to suggestions from others in private correspondence]:
+ Mirroring the Midwest Diocese and stating that the parish will withhold the portion of the assessments due to Syosset pending ... conditions as laid out in original Palatine resolution.
+ Expressing "no confidence" in the Metropolitan -- should be worded as sorrow at his silence and inaction, rather than as accusation. Should point out the harm being done to the Church by the stalling, and also point out that the harm if issues are left unaddressed will be far greater than if things are faced publicly [need to explicitly negate the "for the good of the church, forget and move on" line of thought]
+ Expressing the sense of the parish that the lack of communication is harming the church and calling on your diocesan hierarch to share his thoughts on the crisis and to report regularly on his understanding of what is going on.
These are organized from more stringent to less deliberately. If one is not passable, move on to the next. The last one is simple, clean, expresses concern, and really could not be offensive to anyone. My personal preference would be for withholding -- but getting some statement on record from the parish meeting is important even if withholding can't be acheived.
I think it's also important how these resolutions are introduced to the assembled parish and how they are viewed. They can be offered as a positive alternative to destructive gossiping and grousing about things. So either they would be offered after some expression of discontent as a way to short-circuit a discussion that gets contentious, or, probably better, be offered as a way to pre-empt some of the less constructive stuff … along the lines of “a lot of us are concerned, and rather than indulging in rumor-mongering, speculation, criticism and judgment, we’d like to suggest a straightforward and simple way of expressing our collective concerns.”
At all costs those of us who are deeply concerned about these issues must not play into the hands of those who would paint us as enemies of the church and bomb-throwers.
That DOES NOT mean not pressing hard, that does not mean inactivity, that does not mean ignoring issues ... it does mean confronting the issues from the framework of the church and a Christian perspective -- talking about the only possible solutions [transparency and accountability] as the positive steps that they truly are, as the acts of Christian repentence that Fr. Berzonsky so eloquently calls us to.
There's much, much more than money at stake here. The harm we have suffered over the past 20 years is so much more than financial. The whole culture of church life has been distorted. Priests have been forced into soul-destroying games by the administration. Distortions have crept in many, many aspects of our church life. It's time to face it and to fix it -- none of us are innocent and only through honest, heartfelt repentance can we move forward.
Rebecca
#31
Rebecca Matovic
on
2007-09-18 13:56
Thank you Nicholas for letting us know that one bishop regards all this as "idle chatter". That begs this next question. What would it take for that bishop to think something serious is amiss in the OCA? Truly sad that this is how he regards a serious time in the OCA and the people who are the source of the funding for the OCA.
#32
A sad state of affairs
on
2007-09-18 14:00
Sadly, I have to agree with your assessment of Fr. Vlad's report, even though I count him as a friend, and I know his heart is in the right place.
It is a mistake to assume that the leaders in Syosset are actually godly men who will actually pray, confess, and repent. There has been a lot of evidence to the contrary.
I believe an AAC in 2008 will accomplish absolutely nothing, assuming it even takes place.
It is a mistake to assume that the leaders in Syosset are actually godly men who will actually pray, confess, and repent. There has been a lot of evidence to the contrary.
I believe an AAC in 2008 will accomplish absolutely nothing, assuming it even takes place.
#33
Anonymous
on
2007-09-18 15:11
I lived in south Florida many years back, and it was interesting to me how the Cuban exile community was planning for their return to Cuba when Castro was overthrown. We too need to plan on what occurs when Met. HERMAN and Fr. Paul step aside (or die, or are forced out).
The trigger for getting Met. HERMAN and Fr. Paul forced out is complicated. Personally, I believe it will take inside information to force them out. That information may come through a high-placed individual that turns on the administration, a new member of the administration, or through legal action of either Syosset or PR. RSK could force this to occur in a moment, if indeed there is any truth to the speculation.
I'm pretty confident that none of us, regardless of the logic, volume, or convincing nature of our language, has the standing (individually or collectively) to force change in Syosset. So what pragmatic steps can be taken?
First, as long as your priest will allow you to continue to receive the sacraments and participate in the life of the Church, resign your membership. Copy your priest, the diocesan bishop and the Metropolitan in your letter, and address it to the president and secretary of the parish council. Outline the reasons for your dis-satisfaction with the administration of the Church.
If you want to continue to support the local parish, do so. None of your money is subject to "assessment", since you will no longer be on the membership roles.
Boycott all appearances by both Fr. Paul and the Metropolitan. It worked for his "birthday celebration." It shows them, by your absence, how utterly irrelevant they are to your faith.
Send a letter, individually, to your diocesan bishop letting him know how you feel and asking for something to be done. Suggest a course of action. Ask that he make a public statement about the situation.
Start advocating for the "Special Commission" to become a "Truth and Reconciliation Commission", empowered to forgive those who come forward and confess. At this point, I personally do not believe the best interest of the Church or the Gospel is served in seeking retribution, punishment, or vengeance.
Write a letter to each of your diocesan seminarians and express your support of them, both morally and financially. Make sure you sign the check, and include as many zeros after the initial number that you are comfortable with. Do not filter the money through Syosset. While you're at it, identify how many OCA seminarians we have, and how many are from other jurisdictions, and see if the number of seminarians matches our anticipated needs.
Find a mission and do the same as you did with the seminarians.
Draft a statute revision to be submitted to the AAC when/if it occurs.
Continue to pray, fast, and beseech God for our salvation, and the restoration of His Headship to our Church.
I'm sure others have ideas as well. Show Met. Herman and the Bishops that support him the spiritual and moral bankruptcy we feel. He cannot lead us if we refuse to follow.
Martin D. Watt, CPA
The trigger for getting Met. HERMAN and Fr. Paul forced out is complicated. Personally, I believe it will take inside information to force them out. That information may come through a high-placed individual that turns on the administration, a new member of the administration, or through legal action of either Syosset or PR. RSK could force this to occur in a moment, if indeed there is any truth to the speculation.
I'm pretty confident that none of us, regardless of the logic, volume, or convincing nature of our language, has the standing (individually or collectively) to force change in Syosset. So what pragmatic steps can be taken?
First, as long as your priest will allow you to continue to receive the sacraments and participate in the life of the Church, resign your membership. Copy your priest, the diocesan bishop and the Metropolitan in your letter, and address it to the president and secretary of the parish council. Outline the reasons for your dis-satisfaction with the administration of the Church.
If you want to continue to support the local parish, do so. None of your money is subject to "assessment", since you will no longer be on the membership roles.
Boycott all appearances by both Fr. Paul and the Metropolitan. It worked for his "birthday celebration." It shows them, by your absence, how utterly irrelevant they are to your faith.
Send a letter, individually, to your diocesan bishop letting him know how you feel and asking for something to be done. Suggest a course of action. Ask that he make a public statement about the situation.
Start advocating for the "Special Commission" to become a "Truth and Reconciliation Commission", empowered to forgive those who come forward and confess. At this point, I personally do not believe the best interest of the Church or the Gospel is served in seeking retribution, punishment, or vengeance.
Write a letter to each of your diocesan seminarians and express your support of them, both morally and financially. Make sure you sign the check, and include as many zeros after the initial number that you are comfortable with. Do not filter the money through Syosset. While you're at it, identify how many OCA seminarians we have, and how many are from other jurisdictions, and see if the number of seminarians matches our anticipated needs.
Find a mission and do the same as you did with the seminarians.
Draft a statute revision to be submitted to the AAC when/if it occurs.
Continue to pray, fast, and beseech God for our salvation, and the restoration of His Headship to our Church.
I'm sure others have ideas as well. Show Met. Herman and the Bishops that support him the spiritual and moral bankruptcy we feel. He cannot lead us if we refuse to follow.
Martin D. Watt, CPA
#34
Marty Watt
on
2007-09-18 15:32
Are you a bishop? Then if you are, can you tell us if you take any of the problems in the OCA as serious problems? Or do you think that these are not serious problems, or something in between? Instead of making a remark like you did, why don't you tell us what you think the bishops can do to help the current problems? Many of us are looking for answers, yet we hear nothing from the bishops, save one. And that one bishop may be the only reason that some have any hope at all that these problems will be addressed. If you are a bishop, then do you know that many people are struggling with donating money to a church that appears to be mismanaged? If you are a bishop, why not write a reflection for us? Hearing something is better than hearing nothing from the bishops.
#35
A sad state of affairs
on
2007-09-18 15:34
Thanks to Fr Myron Manzuk and the local committee -- not to mention help from all over, especially the Chancery staff -- the careful planning and staging of the AAC at Toronto in 2005 resulted in a wonderful gathering which actually made money!
That's right: We ended in the black. People don't seem to know that there was a $15k overage when all the dust settled. Now, that's a very modest sum compared to all the expenses involved, but there was definitely not a deficit.
But at the direction of Met. Herman and Fr Paul Kucynda, Fr Stavros Strikis used a great deal of money from advance AAC payments to cover Chancery operating expenses even before the AAC began.
Once those expenses were charged back to the AAC accounts, they not only ate up the $15k overage but chewed through another $100k or so. Met.H then borrowed that amount in the name of St Tikhon Monastery to pay off Toronto's overdue bills. As usual, the monks had no input on this decision; they never do.
Which brings me to another issue.
The Monastery, the Seminary, and the Bookstore on holy Mt Pokonos are all long overdue for an exhaustive and far-reaching independent audit. The Bookstore's accounting for PA sales taxes and money sent abroad needs to be squared up with state and federal law.
The monks live in miserable conditions -- not that they complain -- but it's a very unhealthy environment. I remember Met.H commenting to me once that the Monastery was full: there not only wasn't room for me, but not for any new men.
There COULD be room! Does anyone seriously think that the glacial speed with which the Monastery is growing is an accident, at the same time as three dozen or so new communities have sprung up in North America in just the last twenty years or so?! There is an increasing interest in monastic life among both men and women, but on holy Mt Pokonos there's no room at the inn.
Yet an enormous amount of money comes through the Monastery thanks to the generosity of the people who ask the monk's faithful prayers for their dear departed and loved ones still among the living, not to mention the donations offered spontaneously in the Monastery church. And these good people are certain that their contributions go to assist the monks, but they're mistaken.
Most obviously, that money could and should be used to improve and expand the monks' quarters and to help them in their own many charitable endeavors, but the monks never see it.
Adn Alexey Klimitchev (Met.H's favorite guy at the moment....) handles ALL the money for the Monastery and Bookstore.
Sorry to vent about one of my pet peeves, but the monastics are high priority for me, just as high as the parishes and the Holy Synod and Fr Robert Kondratick's seeking justice and all the other areas of church life gone to ruin under the dead hand of Met.H's administration.
Lord, lead us out of this miasma of darkness and sin! Lord, heal us and save Your Orthodox Church in America!
Monk James
That's right: We ended in the black. People don't seem to know that there was a $15k overage when all the dust settled. Now, that's a very modest sum compared to all the expenses involved, but there was definitely not a deficit.
But at the direction of Met. Herman and Fr Paul Kucynda, Fr Stavros Strikis used a great deal of money from advance AAC payments to cover Chancery operating expenses even before the AAC began.
Once those expenses were charged back to the AAC accounts, they not only ate up the $15k overage but chewed through another $100k or so. Met.H then borrowed that amount in the name of St Tikhon Monastery to pay off Toronto's overdue bills. As usual, the monks had no input on this decision; they never do.
Which brings me to another issue.
The Monastery, the Seminary, and the Bookstore on holy Mt Pokonos are all long overdue for an exhaustive and far-reaching independent audit. The Bookstore's accounting for PA sales taxes and money sent abroad needs to be squared up with state and federal law.
The monks live in miserable conditions -- not that they complain -- but it's a very unhealthy environment. I remember Met.H commenting to me once that the Monastery was full: there not only wasn't room for me, but not for any new men.
There COULD be room! Does anyone seriously think that the glacial speed with which the Monastery is growing is an accident, at the same time as three dozen or so new communities have sprung up in North America in just the last twenty years or so?! There is an increasing interest in monastic life among both men and women, but on holy Mt Pokonos there's no room at the inn.
Yet an enormous amount of money comes through the Monastery thanks to the generosity of the people who ask the monk's faithful prayers for their dear departed and loved ones still among the living, not to mention the donations offered spontaneously in the Monastery church. And these good people are certain that their contributions go to assist the monks, but they're mistaken.
Most obviously, that money could and should be used to improve and expand the monks' quarters and to help them in their own many charitable endeavors, but the monks never see it.
Adn Alexey Klimitchev (Met.H's favorite guy at the moment....) handles ALL the money for the Monastery and Bookstore.
Sorry to vent about one of my pet peeves, but the monastics are high priority for me, just as high as the parishes and the Holy Synod and Fr Robert Kondratick's seeking justice and all the other areas of church life gone to ruin under the dead hand of Met.H's administration.
Lord, lead us out of this miasma of darkness and sin! Lord, heal us and save Your Orthodox Church in America!
Monk James
#36
Monk James
on
2007-09-18 15:39
Those are great suggestions, Rebecca.
I wish I could get you to write them for me : ) (sounds of my first draft being shredded)
I wish I could get you to write them for me : ) (sounds of my first draft being shredded)
#37
Rachel Andreyev
on
2007-09-18 15:43
Huge agreement, the Metropolitan needs to speak. His silence is deafening.
It comes off as arrogant, aloof, and careless.
Millions missing and implied blame on one man are insufficient.
I don't understand why the Metropolitan Council didn't request the Committee. The resignation of the committee members and the continued silence of +Herman seems like we should be silent with +Herman.
It comes off as arrogant, aloof, and careless.
Millions missing and implied blame on one man are insufficient.
I don't understand why the Metropolitan Council didn't request the Committee. The resignation of the committee members and the continued silence of +Herman seems like we should be silent with +Herman.
#38
Daniel E. Fall
on
2007-09-18 16:14
Anon. Priest in the West,
This isn't a bad idea. At my parish you have to pledge or are counted for some other reason agreed on by the priest to be a "voting member". Unfortunately, the assessment is by head count. So I could pledge $1 a month or quarter and still be a "voting member" but the parish would still have to feed the beast the same amount.
Sigh. Now if we ALL did it that would be another thing. Assuming of course, we paid the bills and priest's salary directly. I feel so impotent.
I no longer blame only +Herman and Kucynda. I blame the past and present MC, the bishops, the priests (with notable exceptions) and the laity, to a lesser extent. To a lesser extent because we don't have much power to effect change.
I also think we are owed an apology from the past MCs. They may not have known, but they were responsible for knowing. They could at least say, "I am sorry I failed to believe the accusations and investigate.
I am beginning to believe the OCA is going to crash and burn.
Linda Weir
This isn't a bad idea. At my parish you have to pledge or are counted for some other reason agreed on by the priest to be a "voting member". Unfortunately, the assessment is by head count. So I could pledge $1 a month or quarter and still be a "voting member" but the parish would still have to feed the beast the same amount.
Sigh. Now if we ALL did it that would be another thing. Assuming of course, we paid the bills and priest's salary directly. I feel so impotent.
I no longer blame only +Herman and Kucynda. I blame the past and present MC, the bishops, the priests (with notable exceptions) and the laity, to a lesser extent. To a lesser extent because we don't have much power to effect change.
I also think we are owed an apology from the past MCs. They may not have known, but they were responsible for knowing. They could at least say, "I am sorry I failed to believe the accusations and investigate.
I am beginning to believe the OCA is going to crash and burn.
Linda Weir
#39
Linda Weir
on
2007-09-18 16:25
Unfortunately, my and my husband's hard earned money over all these years did not go to an empty sakos or a non-person. It went to be partial payment toward +Herman's salary and bills and collections, which were terribly mispent.
Patty Schellbach
Patty Schellbach
#40
Patty Schellbach
on
2007-09-18 16:51
+JOB is not the only light in the darkness. I go to a very faithful parish of active and sincere Christians in a diocese who has a resepcted bishop.
"Yet I will leave 7,000 in Israel, all the knees that have not bowed to Baal, and every mouth that has not kissed him."
-- 3 Kingdoms/1 Kings 19.18
"...I am with you, and no one will attack you to hurt you; for I have many people in this city."
-- Acts 18.10
The problem with times such as these is that diviciveness is always right around the corner as "Us" battles "Them." "We" are the few, the chosen.
Well, it is only on the Last Day that the tares are seprated from the wheat, and won't we be surprised!
Until then, there is only "We" and it is our duty to be sure that we are wheat for the grainary of Christ.
There may be only one light shining, but that hasn't yet been revealed. And at the moment, I'm surrounded by the light of my brothers and siters and priest and deacon and bishop and those gone on before.
Which reminds me, I better go trim my wick!
Rdr. T. John
"Yet I will leave 7,000 in Israel, all the knees that have not bowed to Baal, and every mouth that has not kissed him."
-- 3 Kingdoms/1 Kings 19.18
"...I am with you, and no one will attack you to hurt you; for I have many people in this city."
-- Acts 18.10
The problem with times such as these is that diviciveness is always right around the corner as "Us" battles "Them." "We" are the few, the chosen.
Well, it is only on the Last Day that the tares are seprated from the wheat, and won't we be surprised!
Until then, there is only "We" and it is our duty to be sure that we are wheat for the grainary of Christ.
There may be only one light shining, but that hasn't yet been revealed. And at the moment, I'm surrounded by the light of my brothers and siters and priest and deacon and bishop and those gone on before.
Which reminds me, I better go trim my wick!
Rdr. T. John
#41
Rdr. T. John
on
2007-09-18 18:11
Dear sad state,
My hunch about the other bishops is that they are the proverbial "deers in the headlights". Frankly, they don't seem to be that bright and this whole circumstance is one big befuddlement to them in their gloriously simpler existence. Bottom line, they don't have the capacity to rise to this occasion. Keep in mind, these are the handpicked candidates of a group of people who liked their bishops "fat, dumb, and happy." I hope this does not sound unkind, because it is not meant to be, but we need to start calling a spade a spade if we are going to start getting anywhere. Too many, on this site and in the pews, have been expecting leadership from a group of dullards who, quite frankly, have no leadership ability to give. Lets face it, they were, and are, placeholders for the Kondraticks of the world who got their kicks wielding power from the back benches. God help us.
My hunch about the other bishops is that they are the proverbial "deers in the headlights". Frankly, they don't seem to be that bright and this whole circumstance is one big befuddlement to them in their gloriously simpler existence. Bottom line, they don't have the capacity to rise to this occasion. Keep in mind, these are the handpicked candidates of a group of people who liked their bishops "fat, dumb, and happy." I hope this does not sound unkind, because it is not meant to be, but we need to start calling a spade a spade if we are going to start getting anywhere. Too many, on this site and in the pews, have been expecting leadership from a group of dullards who, quite frankly, have no leadership ability to give. Lets face it, they were, and are, placeholders for the Kondraticks of the world who got their kicks wielding power from the back benches. God help us.
#42
Anonymous
on
2007-09-18 18:12
Dear Chris, Thank You! Thank You! Thank You..... Amen!
I Appreciate Your Stand, and So does Many Countless Others!!! My Family and Friends Reflect On Your Postings and Simply Want The Truth To Ring Out!! Just As You Do...
I Find It Sad That They Do Need You To Tell Them What To Do.... I Just Think You Hit A Nerve With Some.... I Certainly Hope So, They Need To Get there Head Out of The Sand!!
It Reflects Back on the Leadership and the Character of The Man....Each of Them Will Answer To God For He Sees All.... Chris May God Grant You Many More Blessed Years!!! Irene
I Appreciate Your Stand, and So does Many Countless Others!!! My Family and Friends Reflect On Your Postings and Simply Want The Truth To Ring Out!! Just As You Do...
I Find It Sad That They Do Need You To Tell Them What To Do.... I Just Think You Hit A Nerve With Some.... I Certainly Hope So, They Need To Get there Head Out of The Sand!!
It Reflects Back on the Leadership and the Character of The Man....Each of Them Will Answer To God For He Sees All.... Chris May God Grant You Many More Blessed Years!!! Irene
#43
Anonymous
on
2007-09-18 18:44
Nick,
As usual, you are wrong. The subject was discussed at the last Assembly of the Diocese of the South. The report of our MC representative was even posted on the DOS website. And what point are you making about Fr Fester?
The "idle chatter" as made last year Nick, not this year. The subject was a matter of discussion at a special meeting of the Deans of the Diocese of the South this year.
If you have specific questions about Fr Fester in Dallas, why not address them directly to Archbishop Dmitri then write you quips on the ocanews.org bathroom wall.
As usual, you are wrong. The subject was discussed at the last Assembly of the Diocese of the South. The report of our MC representative was even posted on the DOS website. And what point are you making about Fr Fester?
The "idle chatter" as made last year Nick, not this year. The subject was a matter of discussion at a special meeting of the Deans of the Diocese of the South this year.
If you have specific questions about Fr Fester in Dallas, why not address them directly to Archbishop Dmitri then write you quips on the ocanews.org bathroom wall.
#44
Anonymous
on
2007-09-18 20:10
I call the Metropolitan all the time to ask him to resign. But he never picks up the phone. A couple of times I've talked to his assistant but mostly I just get pt into voice mail. I always leave the message that Metr. Herman is hurting the church and should resign. The last time I talked to his assistant I was told I would be calling for a very long time becaue the Metr. is notgoing to resign.
I refuse to discuss anything with someone who uses my nickname when he addresses me but doesn't have the guts to sign his own name.
#46
nicholas skovran
on
2007-09-19 08:04
What planet are you from?
To say the 2005 AAC ended in the black $15 bucks and for the central church to need to finance 100k to pay the debt 2 years later...which you try to twist into the fabric of your madness..
Wow!
I have been upset with Mark Stokoe for his handling of you in the past, but now I completely understand.
May the Lord have mercy on you and on me for the way I now feel about you.
Oi Vai!
To say the 2005 AAC ended in the black $15 bucks and for the central church to need to finance 100k to pay the debt 2 years later...which you try to twist into the fabric of your madness..
Wow!
I have been upset with Mark Stokoe for his handling of you in the past, but now I completely understand.
May the Lord have mercy on you and on me for the way I now feel about you.
Oi Vai!
#47
Daniel E. Fall
on
2007-09-20 13:16
I am posting these so anyone interested can use them as starting points. They are definitely rough drafts! It has been a really long time since I had to write anything in a parliamentary style!
First, a letter to our Bishop:
Dear Vladyka,
Our church has been embroiled in a painful and disturbing scandal for nearly two years now. On the surface the scandal at first appeared to be simply financial- perhaps a matter of too casual accounting or insufficient oversight. As the story has unfolded however a much uglier picture of immorality and subsequent cover-ups has unfolded. The people of the church are disturbed and pained. Many have come to question the integrity and even the survival of the autocephalous Orthodox Church in America. Many have had to wrestle with questions of obedience to their priests or hierarchs seemingly in opposition to their obedience to Christ. Many have been shocked by the hypocrisy of our leaders and are looking to other churches for spiritual sustenance. Vladyka, as your spiritual children, we do not understand your silence on the crisis. We have noted that you supported the resolution at last year's Diocesan Assembly calling for an expeditious resolution to the crisis. We have noted that you appointed our former pastor, whom we know to be a man of great integrity to fill a vacancy on the Metropolitan Council. But from you as our pastor, our shepherd, we have heard nothing.
We humbly implore you to speak to us, to address the scandal and offer us some assurance that our bishops understand the spiritual pain it is causing the faithful, that they are actively seeking a cure for the crisis, which must involve a restoration of the faithful's trust. Can you not see a way to offer us regular guidance by addressing the people of your diocese as new events unfold?
We also have been disturbed by the fact that although the scandal has been acknowledged publicly by the Metropolitan and the Holy Synod, there has been no call to prayer for the resolution of the crisis by the church as the Body of Christ, except by Archbishop Job. Could we not ask you for a special inclusion for our litanies until the crisis has been resolved? Could you not give your blessing for parishes and individuals to read the same Akathist blessed by +Job for the healing of the church? Could we not also regularly set aside a day of prayer and fasting until harmony and integrity have been restored?
( some inspired closing- I don't have it in me right now)
Second, a Resolution of No Confidence :
Affirming the statement of the 2007 New England Diocesan Assembly that " We are deeply saddened and concerned by the scandal affecting our Church. In addition, we believe that significant legal risks to the Church.... will result from continued failure to take decisive action.",
Applauding the efforts of the Metropolitan Council in exercising their responsibilities set forth in the OCA Statues to oversee the fiduciary concerns of the church, and their effort to bring accountability to the governance of our church, particularly in the establishment of the Special Investigative Commission,
Grateful that the Holy Synod acknowledged error in disregarding early warnings of the scandal and that it supported the unimpeded work of the Special Investigation along with the release to the entire church of the Commission's preliminary report,
Dismayed that the Metropolitan has unilaterally and "indefinitely" suspended the work of the Commission and prohibits the release of the Preliminary Report, outside the powers established by the Statute,
Noting with sorrow and gravity the damage that the Church and the faithful have borne thus far and dismayed that the righteous concerns of the faithful have mostly been dismissed or demeaned,
Concerned that a number of statements made to the national press and in the procurement of the Honesdale Loan from the offices of Syossett are factually untrue and misleading,
Concerned that the Metropolitan's tenure as Treasurer of the OCA and subsequently as Metropolitan during many of the years in dispute, and his awareness of the facts of the scandal for those years, compromise his ability to guide the church through this crisis,
Concerned that continuing in the direction laid out thus far by Metropolitan Herman will only prolong the agonies of the church as it moves inevitably towards the truth, concerned that what has been presented thus far as efforts towards accountability by the office of the Metropolitan are rightly regarded by many as inadequate to the Body of Christ and likewise damaging people's trust in the integrity of the OCA as a corporate body,
We hereby express no confidence in the leadership of the Metropolitan regarding this scandal.
We also resolve hereby to put forth a resolution at the upcoming diocesan assembly to affirm the same or to support any similar resolution.
Third, a resolution on withholding:
Recalling the resolution of the 2006 New England Diocesan Assembly urging the governing bodies of the Orthodox Church in America to expeditiously resolve the financial scandal and leadership crisis affecting the church,
Acknowledging that positive steps were made by the Metropolitan Council to bring accountability to church governance, particularly in the establishment of a Special Commission to investigate the scandal, and that these efforts were supported by decisions of the Holy Synod,
Dismayed that this work was limited in scope and then suspended unilaterally by the Metropolitan against the order set forth in the Statute, and the decisions of the Metropolitan Council and Holy Synod,
Recognizing that our sister parishes in the Diocese of the Midwest have begun withholding their national assessments until certain benchmarks are met,
We resolve to place our Central Church assessment payments in escrow, upon notice to the Diocese that we are doing so, until the benchmarks set forth, amended by us to meet current circumstances, by the Diocese of the Midwest are met, being the following:
1. The October assessment payments upon the release to all Church members of all reports of the special investigation commission and when the commission comprised of its original members renews its unhindered investigation, as directed by the Metropolitan Council and affirmed by the Holy Synod??2. The November assessment payments when a clear plan for convening an All-American Council in 2008 is announced.
We resolve also to put forth a resolution calling for Diocesan wide withholding at the upcoming 2007 Diocesan Assembly or to support any similar resolution put forth.
First, a letter to our Bishop:
Dear Vladyka,
Our church has been embroiled in a painful and disturbing scandal for nearly two years now. On the surface the scandal at first appeared to be simply financial- perhaps a matter of too casual accounting or insufficient oversight. As the story has unfolded however a much uglier picture of immorality and subsequent cover-ups has unfolded. The people of the church are disturbed and pained. Many have come to question the integrity and even the survival of the autocephalous Orthodox Church in America. Many have had to wrestle with questions of obedience to their priests or hierarchs seemingly in opposition to their obedience to Christ. Many have been shocked by the hypocrisy of our leaders and are looking to other churches for spiritual sustenance. Vladyka, as your spiritual children, we do not understand your silence on the crisis. We have noted that you supported the resolution at last year's Diocesan Assembly calling for an expeditious resolution to the crisis. We have noted that you appointed our former pastor, whom we know to be a man of great integrity to fill a vacancy on the Metropolitan Council. But from you as our pastor, our shepherd, we have heard nothing.
We humbly implore you to speak to us, to address the scandal and offer us some assurance that our bishops understand the spiritual pain it is causing the faithful, that they are actively seeking a cure for the crisis, which must involve a restoration of the faithful's trust. Can you not see a way to offer us regular guidance by addressing the people of your diocese as new events unfold?
We also have been disturbed by the fact that although the scandal has been acknowledged publicly by the Metropolitan and the Holy Synod, there has been no call to prayer for the resolution of the crisis by the church as the Body of Christ, except by Archbishop Job. Could we not ask you for a special inclusion for our litanies until the crisis has been resolved? Could you not give your blessing for parishes and individuals to read the same Akathist blessed by +Job for the healing of the church? Could we not also regularly set aside a day of prayer and fasting until harmony and integrity have been restored?
( some inspired closing- I don't have it in me right now)
Second, a Resolution of No Confidence :
Affirming the statement of the 2007 New England Diocesan Assembly that " We are deeply saddened and concerned by the scandal affecting our Church. In addition, we believe that significant legal risks to the Church.... will result from continued failure to take decisive action.",
Applauding the efforts of the Metropolitan Council in exercising their responsibilities set forth in the OCA Statues to oversee the fiduciary concerns of the church, and their effort to bring accountability to the governance of our church, particularly in the establishment of the Special Investigative Commission,
Grateful that the Holy Synod acknowledged error in disregarding early warnings of the scandal and that it supported the unimpeded work of the Special Investigation along with the release to the entire church of the Commission's preliminary report,
Dismayed that the Metropolitan has unilaterally and "indefinitely" suspended the work of the Commission and prohibits the release of the Preliminary Report, outside the powers established by the Statute,
Noting with sorrow and gravity the damage that the Church and the faithful have borne thus far and dismayed that the righteous concerns of the faithful have mostly been dismissed or demeaned,
Concerned that a number of statements made to the national press and in the procurement of the Honesdale Loan from the offices of Syossett are factually untrue and misleading,
Concerned that the Metropolitan's tenure as Treasurer of the OCA and subsequently as Metropolitan during many of the years in dispute, and his awareness of the facts of the scandal for those years, compromise his ability to guide the church through this crisis,
Concerned that continuing in the direction laid out thus far by Metropolitan Herman will only prolong the agonies of the church as it moves inevitably towards the truth, concerned that what has been presented thus far as efforts towards accountability by the office of the Metropolitan are rightly regarded by many as inadequate to the Body of Christ and likewise damaging people's trust in the integrity of the OCA as a corporate body,
We hereby express no confidence in the leadership of the Metropolitan regarding this scandal.
We also resolve hereby to put forth a resolution at the upcoming diocesan assembly to affirm the same or to support any similar resolution.
Third, a resolution on withholding:
Recalling the resolution of the 2006 New England Diocesan Assembly urging the governing bodies of the Orthodox Church in America to expeditiously resolve the financial scandal and leadership crisis affecting the church,
Acknowledging that positive steps were made by the Metropolitan Council to bring accountability to church governance, particularly in the establishment of a Special Commission to investigate the scandal, and that these efforts were supported by decisions of the Holy Synod,
Dismayed that this work was limited in scope and then suspended unilaterally by the Metropolitan against the order set forth in the Statute, and the decisions of the Metropolitan Council and Holy Synod,
Recognizing that our sister parishes in the Diocese of the Midwest have begun withholding their national assessments until certain benchmarks are met,
We resolve to place our Central Church assessment payments in escrow, upon notice to the Diocese that we are doing so, until the benchmarks set forth, amended by us to meet current circumstances, by the Diocese of the Midwest are met, being the following:
1. The October assessment payments upon the release to all Church members of all reports of the special investigation commission and when the commission comprised of its original members renews its unhindered investigation, as directed by the Metropolitan Council and affirmed by the Holy Synod??2. The November assessment payments when a clear plan for convening an All-American Council in 2008 is announced.
We resolve also to put forth a resolution calling for Diocesan wide withholding at the upcoming 2007 Diocesan Assembly or to support any similar resolution put forth.
#48
Rachel Andreyev
on
2007-09-21 07:55
Perhaps Daniel Fall will verify my assertions with Fr Myron Manzuk or the local committee in Toronto, and then report back to us here?
That would be a good thing!
Monk James
That would be a good thing!
Monk James
#49
Monk James
on
2007-09-21 09:12
So, you would assert the AAC had a source of revenues that were independent of the OCA general fund?
Is that what you are saying?
I can find out through a delegate whether or not they paid over and above for their attendance. Otherwise Monk, operating expenses for the electric bill or for the AAC are equal and the church didn't make it black on any of them according to auditors.
This thread is mostly dead, so probably not too many people saw my remarks, please forgive me a bit. I was really upset when I read your post.
The auditors have clearly stated the OCA overran operating expenses. Nothing was in the black Monk.
Is that what you are saying?
I can find out through a delegate whether or not they paid over and above for their attendance. Otherwise Monk, operating expenses for the electric bill or for the AAC are equal and the church didn't make it black on any of them according to auditors.
This thread is mostly dead, so probably not too many people saw my remarks, please forgive me a bit. I was really upset when I read your post.
The auditors have clearly stated the OCA overran operating expenses. Nothing was in the black Monk.
#50
Daniel E. Fall
on
2007-09-22 20:22
Daniel Fall appears to still be trading on mistaken assumptions.
The 'auditors' are looking at net figures long after the fact, when all expenses were accrued against income and the cupboard was bare, already emptied of more than $100k 'reallocated' to operating expenses even before the 2005 AAC at Toronto even began. Fr Stavros Strikis did that shifting of funds over a period of many months at the direction of Fr Paul Kucynda and Met. Herman.
The truth remains that Fr Myron Manzuk and the central and local committees did a wonderful job in pulling the 2005 AAC together and paying for it.
We did indeed finish $15k in the black, and I'm confident that anyone involved in the planning would confirm this.
So, once again, I urge Mr Fall to consult them and see what legacy they left, and then compare that to what the Treasurer and the Metropolitan did with the money.
The fact that the net shortfall was covered by a $100k loan taken by Met. Herman in the name of St Tikhon Monastery just galls me. This is an inexcusable insult added to the injury of Herman's many years of depriving the Monastery of the resources and finances offered by so many good and faithful people who thought they were contributing to the life and growth of the Monastery.
Monk James
The 'auditors' are looking at net figures long after the fact, when all expenses were accrued against income and the cupboard was bare, already emptied of more than $100k 'reallocated' to operating expenses even before the 2005 AAC at Toronto even began. Fr Stavros Strikis did that shifting of funds over a period of many months at the direction of Fr Paul Kucynda and Met. Herman.
The truth remains that Fr Myron Manzuk and the central and local committees did a wonderful job in pulling the 2005 AAC together and paying for it.
We did indeed finish $15k in the black, and I'm confident that anyone involved in the planning would confirm this.
So, once again, I urge Mr Fall to consult them and see what legacy they left, and then compare that to what the Treasurer and the Metropolitan did with the money.
The fact that the net shortfall was covered by a $100k loan taken by Met. Herman in the name of St Tikhon Monastery just galls me. This is an inexcusable insult added to the injury of Herman's many years of depriving the Monastery of the resources and finances offered by so many good and faithful people who thought they were contributing to the life and growth of the Monastery.
Monk James
#51
Monk James
on
2007-09-23 18:42
I will check to see if the delegate I know paid with personal monies to attend the AAC.
Otherwise, the statement you make about ending 15 bucks in the black is plain silly.
All general fund revenue and expense are netted. All restricted funds need to remain restricted. If Metropolitan Herman authorized the spending of temporarily restricted funds starting in 2002, why hasn't RSK sung like a canary of it? Has he got the don't sing and we won't send you to prison card? When will these guys stop covering their hineys?
Perhaps you meant the AAC was 15 bucks under budget?
This may be true, but doesn't abrogate the Chancellor's responsibility and the Treasurer's responsibility to not run a business that runs deficits for years on end.
Otherwise, the statement you make about ending 15 bucks in the black is plain silly.
All general fund revenue and expense are netted. All restricted funds need to remain restricted. If Metropolitan Herman authorized the spending of temporarily restricted funds starting in 2002, why hasn't RSK sung like a canary of it? Has he got the don't sing and we won't send you to prison card? When will these guys stop covering their hineys?
Perhaps you meant the AAC was 15 bucks under budget?
This may be true, but doesn't abrogate the Chancellor's responsibility and the Treasurer's responsibility to not run a business that runs deficits for years on end.
#52
Daniel E. Fall
on
2007-09-24 07:45
OyOY!!
Perhaps part of Daniel Fall's communication problem is that he's so mad at me personally that he didn't actually read and understand what I wrote, so here it is again, clipped from my 18 September note here:
BQ
Thanks to Fr Myron Manzuk and the local committee -- not to mention help from all over, especially the Chancery staff -- the careful planning and staging of the AAC at Toronto in 2005 resulted in a wonderful gathering which actually made money!
That's right: We ended in the black. People don't seem to know that there was a $15k overage when all the dust settled. Now, that's a very modest sum compared to all the expenses involved, but there was definitely not a deficit.
But at the direction of Met. Herman and Fr Paul Kucynda, Fr Stavros Strikis used a great deal of money from advance AAC payments to cover Chancery operating expenses even before the AAC began.
Once those expenses were charged back to the AAC accounts, they not only ate up the $15k overage but chewed through another $100k or so. Met.H then borrowed that amount in the name of St Tikhon Monastery to pay off Toronto's overdue bills. As usual, the monks had no input on this decision; they never do.
EQ
$15k =15 THOUSAND DOLLARS, not '15 bucks'. Sheesh!
And whether or not any delegates paid all or part of their own expenses to attend the 2005 AAC in Toronto is completely irrelevant to the point I'm raising.
The concept of 'restricted funds' is also irrelevant to this discussion, since the ACC receipts were not earmarked as 'restricted' -- although they could certainly have been regarded as 'designated'.
As such, the pattern of reallocation which had been established by Syosset well before Fr Robert Kondratick began his service as chancellor was invoked by Met. Herman and Fr Paul Kucynda without controversy or opposition at the time, and it appears that Fr Stavros Strikis kept accurate records of what money he put where. I suppose they all foolishly expected that the Toronto meetings would pull in enough of a profit to cover the borrowed; clearly, that didn't happen.
For the third time, I urge Mr Fall to clarify and correct his mistaken impression of that AAC's finances (and verify my own assertions here) by contacting the people who planned and accounted for those meetings, both the central and local committees.
And then report back to us with his findings.
Monk James
Perhaps part of Daniel Fall's communication problem is that he's so mad at me personally that he didn't actually read and understand what I wrote, so here it is again, clipped from my 18 September note here:
BQ
Thanks to Fr Myron Manzuk and the local committee -- not to mention help from all over, especially the Chancery staff -- the careful planning and staging of the AAC at Toronto in 2005 resulted in a wonderful gathering which actually made money!
That's right: We ended in the black. People don't seem to know that there was a $15k overage when all the dust settled. Now, that's a very modest sum compared to all the expenses involved, but there was definitely not a deficit.
But at the direction of Met. Herman and Fr Paul Kucynda, Fr Stavros Strikis used a great deal of money from advance AAC payments to cover Chancery operating expenses even before the AAC began.
Once those expenses were charged back to the AAC accounts, they not only ate up the $15k overage but chewed through another $100k or so. Met.H then borrowed that amount in the name of St Tikhon Monastery to pay off Toronto's overdue bills. As usual, the monks had no input on this decision; they never do.
EQ
$15k =15 THOUSAND DOLLARS, not '15 bucks'. Sheesh!
And whether or not any delegates paid all or part of their own expenses to attend the 2005 AAC in Toronto is completely irrelevant to the point I'm raising.
The concept of 'restricted funds' is also irrelevant to this discussion, since the ACC receipts were not earmarked as 'restricted' -- although they could certainly have been regarded as 'designated'.
As such, the pattern of reallocation which had been established by Syosset well before Fr Robert Kondratick began his service as chancellor was invoked by Met. Herman and Fr Paul Kucynda without controversy or opposition at the time, and it appears that Fr Stavros Strikis kept accurate records of what money he put where. I suppose they all foolishly expected that the Toronto meetings would pull in enough of a profit to cover the borrowed; clearly, that didn't happen.
For the third time, I urge Mr Fall to clarify and correct his mistaken impression of that AAC's finances (and verify my own assertions here) by contacting the people who planned and accounted for those meetings, both the central and local committees.
And then report back to us with his findings.
Monk James
#53
Monk James
on
2007-09-24 15:11
Good Monk,
I am truly not angry with you. I find your comments interesting enough to read back what you have posted. I was sort of set off when you said the AAC ran in the black because it doesn't matter if certain expense lines ran under budget when the net budget was over.
Forgive me on the 15 dollars versus the 15k, this was never the point of the discussion.
To say you ended 15k ahead, I asked what do you mean?
Do you mean 15k under budget? I must assume so.
This may have been possible, but I repeat it doesn't mean the OCA wasn't running in the red on net costs. It also doesn't mean the OCA was budgeting correctly.
I couldn't care less if the AAC was 15k under budget. The bottom line was the OCA clearly couldn't afford to pay for the AAC and had operating fund deficits to pay from 2005 with the Honesdale loans. The payable could have been to Joe, Bob, and Mike for the hundred grand and it still was owed, right?
It doesn't mean the budget was ever sound in the first place.
In fact, the OCA got slapped pretty hard because they were budgeting unpledged donations and one of the CPAs that posts here zinged them for it and they had to revise their 2007 budgets. I questioned the 500 grand in donations and callled it the float that sank the boat. Filling in operating differences with a donation line to cover shortages looks like it had been done for years.
So, if that is the case, it doesn't matter if individual expense line items ran 'under' budget, because the budgets were garbage to start with...
I actually don't think we are far off in our sentiments, but the budgeted amounts for the AAC were certainly too high to start with, so a 15k savings was really required, not just good performance.
The point about designated funds is a very serious point. If you contend that Metropolitan Herman authorized the spending of designated funds all these years for operating expenses, you are basically saying the Metropolitan, RSK, and Fr. Paul were violating the law all these years.
Did they know they were breaking the law?
Why won't RSK speak?
I am truly not angry with you. I find your comments interesting enough to read back what you have posted. I was sort of set off when you said the AAC ran in the black because it doesn't matter if certain expense lines ran under budget when the net budget was over.
Forgive me on the 15 dollars versus the 15k, this was never the point of the discussion.
To say you ended 15k ahead, I asked what do you mean?
Do you mean 15k under budget? I must assume so.
This may have been possible, but I repeat it doesn't mean the OCA wasn't running in the red on net costs. It also doesn't mean the OCA was budgeting correctly.
I couldn't care less if the AAC was 15k under budget. The bottom line was the OCA clearly couldn't afford to pay for the AAC and had operating fund deficits to pay from 2005 with the Honesdale loans. The payable could have been to Joe, Bob, and Mike for the hundred grand and it still was owed, right?
It doesn't mean the budget was ever sound in the first place.
In fact, the OCA got slapped pretty hard because they were budgeting unpledged donations and one of the CPAs that posts here zinged them for it and they had to revise their 2007 budgets. I questioned the 500 grand in donations and callled it the float that sank the boat. Filling in operating differences with a donation line to cover shortages looks like it had been done for years.
So, if that is the case, it doesn't matter if individual expense line items ran 'under' budget, because the budgets were garbage to start with...
I actually don't think we are far off in our sentiments, but the budgeted amounts for the AAC were certainly too high to start with, so a 15k savings was really required, not just good performance.
The point about designated funds is a very serious point. If you contend that Metropolitan Herman authorized the spending of designated funds all these years for operating expenses, you are basically saying the Metropolitan, RSK, and Fr. Paul were violating the law all these years.
Did they know they were breaking the law?
Why won't RSK speak?
#54
Daniel E. Fall
on
2007-09-25 14:55
What you do not seem to understand, Mr. Fall, is that the AAC is an income generating activity. I do not know where all of the income it generates comes from but I do know that the dioceses pay a special assessment for the AAC. As I was for a while the treasurer of the former Diocese of Washington, I know this to be a fact.
I do not know if Monk James is correct in saying that the last AAC showed a profit but, as one would with any income producing project, one would want to compare the income generated with the expenses to see if you made, or lost, money on the activity. Surely, your parish does this when the hold fund raising activities such as a bazaar.
It appears that Monk James is claiming that Metropolitan Herman directed that income meant to support the AAC was diverted to pay for other operating expenses. I do not know if this was done, but it certainly is consistent with other activities that are known about the operation of the central administration.
This is important in that there has been much concern over the expense of an AAC. If a well run AAC can support itself and indeed produce a surplus, as Monk James claims, then this should be less of a concern.
Thomas Hamrick
St. Mark, Bethesda, MD
I do not know if Monk James is correct in saying that the last AAC showed a profit but, as one would with any income producing project, one would want to compare the income generated with the expenses to see if you made, or lost, money on the activity. Surely, your parish does this when the hold fund raising activities such as a bazaar.
It appears that Monk James is claiming that Metropolitan Herman directed that income meant to support the AAC was diverted to pay for other operating expenses. I do not know if this was done, but it certainly is consistent with other activities that are known about the operation of the central administration.
This is important in that there has been much concern over the expense of an AAC. If a well run AAC can support itself and indeed produce a surplus, as Monk James claims, then this should be less of a concern.
Thomas Hamrick
St. Mark, Bethesda, MD
#55
Thomas Hamrick
on
2007-09-27 08:54
It's good that Daniel Fall is no longer angry at me. It's not good for the soul to be angry at people.
The $15k overage WAS NOT the difference between budget and expenses, but between income and expenses. So let's not concern ourselves with the concept of coming in under budget.
The $15k overage was PROFIT -- money left over after the 2005 AAC committees settled accounts on THEIR OWN books. Since supplier, vendor, venue --all payments involving more than routinely revolving receipted petty cash -- were to be made from Central, the committees had no way of knowing whether the expenses they recorded as vouchered and paid had actually been disbursed to the payees.
THAT's when and where the trouble started: the Chancery had not kept up with vouchers and disbursements, but had used money in advance of the final closing of the AAC's books -- and came up more than $100k short.
AFAIK, it is not illegal in New York or the US for not-for-profits to reallocate donations as emerging concerns cause priorities to shift -- as long as the money remains dedicated to the same legally defined class of endeavors as those to which it was originally donated.
But even this loophole refers only to designated funds -- not restricted or encumbered funds such as limited trusts, etc.
So, while MetT and MetH and their treasurers and MetCouncils might have created great confusion by reallocating funds by internally borrowing money on a number of occasions, they probably did not break the law.
What is illegal and sinful, though, is for Herman and Kucynda to blame these reallocations on Fr Robert Kondratick as if these reallocations were illegal, and as if he had the authority to do such a thing, anyway.
Monk James
The $15k overage WAS NOT the difference between budget and expenses, but between income and expenses. So let's not concern ourselves with the concept of coming in under budget.
The $15k overage was PROFIT -- money left over after the 2005 AAC committees settled accounts on THEIR OWN books. Since supplier, vendor, venue --all payments involving more than routinely revolving receipted petty cash -- were to be made from Central, the committees had no way of knowing whether the expenses they recorded as vouchered and paid had actually been disbursed to the payees.
THAT's when and where the trouble started: the Chancery had not kept up with vouchers and disbursements, but had used money in advance of the final closing of the AAC's books -- and came up more than $100k short.
AFAIK, it is not illegal in New York or the US for not-for-profits to reallocate donations as emerging concerns cause priorities to shift -- as long as the money remains dedicated to the same legally defined class of endeavors as those to which it was originally donated.
But even this loophole refers only to designated funds -- not restricted or encumbered funds such as limited trusts, etc.
So, while MetT and MetH and their treasurers and MetCouncils might have created great confusion by reallocating funds by internally borrowing money on a number of occasions, they probably did not break the law.
What is illegal and sinful, though, is for Herman and Kucynda to blame these reallocations on Fr Robert Kondratick as if these reallocations were illegal, and as if he had the authority to do such a thing, anyway.
Monk James
#56
Monk James
on
2007-09-27 11:35
The author does not allow comments to this entry
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