Tuesday, April 1. 2008
St. Vladimir's Faculty Statement and News From the OCA
Your comments on the SVS Faculty Statement, the Metropolitan's address, the Bishop's interview, or the other news of the day are welcome.
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Will the last person out of $yo$$set please blow out the candles?
#1
Anonymous
on
2008-04-01 11:04
It is sad that Fr. Alexander Rentel is no longer the canonical adviser of the OCA, but it is not unexpected. Those who had the joy to endure CL203 with him at St. Vladimir's know that he insists that each of his students understands fully Trullo 102:
"It behoves those who have received from God the power to loose and bind, to consider the quality of the sin and the readiness of the sinner for conversion, and to apply medicine suitable for the disease, lest if he is injudicious in each of these respects he should fail in regard to the healing of the sick man. For the disease of sin is not simple, but various and multiform, and it germinates many mischievous offshoots, from which much evil is diffused, and it proceeds further until it is checked by the power of the physician. Wherefore he who professes the science of spiritual medicine ought first of all to consider the disposition of him who has sinned, and to see whether he tends to health or (on the contrary) provokes to himself disease by his own behaviour, and to look how he can care for his manner of life during the interval. And if he does not resist the physician, and if the ulcer of the soul is increased by the application of the imposed medicaments, then let him mete out mercy to him according as he is worthy of it. For the whole account is between God and him to whom the pastoral rule has been delivered, to lead back the wandering sheep and to cure that which is wounded by the serpent; and that he may neither cast them down into the precipices of despair, nor loosen the bridle towards dissolution or contempt of life; but in some way or other, either by means of sternness and astringency, or by greater softness and mild medicines, to resist this sickness and exert himself for the healing of the ulcer, now examining the fruits of his repentance and wisely managing the man who is called to higher illumination. For we ought to know two things, to wit, the things which belong to strictness and those which belong to custom, and to follow the traditional form in the case of those who are not fitted for the highest things, as holy Basil teaches us."
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3814.htm
In other words, canons exist for the salvation of souls. This is Fr. Alex's plumb line for the application of the canons. This past week we saw members of the Synod throw idea completely out the window and use canons in order to drive people away from the Church. It's very sad.
Money did not destroy the OCA, but this controversy just might. The OCA is fracturing at its seams, and it is becoming more and more apparent every day that +Herman is unable to keep it together. The Synod disagreed with him. Seminary faculty disagree with the Synod. +Nicolai is whining to both the MP and EP (does appealing to both really ingratiate yourself to either???). +Herman has been under the delusion that it has just been the "little people" who have not supported him these past few years. Now it is apparent that the factions are much more widespread and high-level than +Herman thought. +Herman is increasingly becoming isolated in his position and anything he does now is, I'm afraid, only going to polarize the situation further.
"It behoves those who have received from God the power to loose and bind, to consider the quality of the sin and the readiness of the sinner for conversion, and to apply medicine suitable for the disease, lest if he is injudicious in each of these respects he should fail in regard to the healing of the sick man. For the disease of sin is not simple, but various and multiform, and it germinates many mischievous offshoots, from which much evil is diffused, and it proceeds further until it is checked by the power of the physician. Wherefore he who professes the science of spiritual medicine ought first of all to consider the disposition of him who has sinned, and to see whether he tends to health or (on the contrary) provokes to himself disease by his own behaviour, and to look how he can care for his manner of life during the interval. And if he does not resist the physician, and if the ulcer of the soul is increased by the application of the imposed medicaments, then let him mete out mercy to him according as he is worthy of it. For the whole account is between God and him to whom the pastoral rule has been delivered, to lead back the wandering sheep and to cure that which is wounded by the serpent; and that he may neither cast them down into the precipices of despair, nor loosen the bridle towards dissolution or contempt of life; but in some way or other, either by means of sternness and astringency, or by greater softness and mild medicines, to resist this sickness and exert himself for the healing of the ulcer, now examining the fruits of his repentance and wisely managing the man who is called to higher illumination. For we ought to know two things, to wit, the things which belong to strictness and those which belong to custom, and to follow the traditional form in the case of those who are not fitted for the highest things, as holy Basil teaches us."
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3814.htm
In other words, canons exist for the salvation of souls. This is Fr. Alex's plumb line for the application of the canons. This past week we saw members of the Synod throw idea completely out the window and use canons in order to drive people away from the Church. It's very sad.
Money did not destroy the OCA, but this controversy just might. The OCA is fracturing at its seams, and it is becoming more and more apparent every day that +Herman is unable to keep it together. The Synod disagreed with him. Seminary faculty disagree with the Synod. +Nicolai is whining to both the MP and EP (does appealing to both really ingratiate yourself to either???). +Herman has been under the delusion that it has just been the "little people" who have not supported him these past few years. Now it is apparent that the factions are much more widespread and high-level than +Herman thought. +Herman is increasingly becoming isolated in his position and anything he does now is, I'm afraid, only going to polarize the situation further.
#2
Anonymous
on
2008-04-01 11:09
If one were to draw up a strategic plan, on how to screw up all over again, the SOB's are showing us how!
At first it was shocking, then it was sad, and then-funny, now it is tragic. There are not men, they are cowards of the first order.
Shall we mint a new Orthodox medal of distinction?
ORDER OF THE COWARD
(we'd better order lots of them)
At first it was shocking, then it was sad, and then-funny, now it is tragic. There are not men, they are cowards of the first order.
Shall we mint a new Orthodox medal of distinction?
ORDER OF THE COWARD
(we'd better order lots of them)
#3
no name
on
2008-04-01 11:11
Cost of ticket from Kodiak/New York : $850.00 +
Cost of ticket from Moscow /New York : $750.00 +
Statement from +Herman: "Time will be taken to discuss the scandal that has taken up so much of our attention and energy since the last All-American Council. However, as critical as it is to address this matter, we must not allow ourselves to become paralyzed by it We must learn from the past and there are valuable lessons to learn from the events of recent years about accountability, transparency and servant leadership.However, learning from the past , we must not live in it. It is most important that we stay focused on creating an atmosphere where people feel they can trust their leaders to carry out their responsibilities with good will in the most responsible manner possible We seek to create an environment where those in authority see their positions as acts of service not as places of privilege. This work will not be demonstrated by words. A tree is known by the fruit that it bears and it is our actions that will show the sincerity and authenticity of our efforts".
PRICELESS !!!!
Sorry for the caps Scott.
Our "long defeat" continues...........
Anonymous for now
Cost of ticket from Moscow /New York : $750.00 +
Statement from +Herman: "Time will be taken to discuss the scandal that has taken up so much of our attention and energy since the last All-American Council. However, as critical as it is to address this matter, we must not allow ourselves to become paralyzed by it We must learn from the past and there are valuable lessons to learn from the events of recent years about accountability, transparency and servant leadership.However, learning from the past , we must not live in it. It is most important that we stay focused on creating an atmosphere where people feel they can trust their leaders to carry out their responsibilities with good will in the most responsible manner possible We seek to create an environment where those in authority see their positions as acts of service not as places of privilege. This work will not be demonstrated by words. A tree is known by the fruit that it bears and it is our actions that will show the sincerity and authenticity of our efforts".
PRICELESS !!!!
Sorry for the caps Scott.
Our "long defeat" continues...........
Anonymous for now
#4
Anonymous
on
2008-04-01 11:13
It looks like Syosset is burning and Herman and the Synod have loaded their waterguns.
#5
MP
on
2008-04-01 11:22
I would be very interested in hearing Father Alexander Rentel publicly explain his reasons for resigning as canonical advisor to the Holy Synod of Bishops.
#6
Father Gary Joseph Breton
on
2008-04-01 12:01
Gag...now the Bishop of Alaska is comparing himself to Christ?!?!?!
Excuse me while I find somewhere to throw up.
Can it get any worse?
Excuse me while I find somewhere to throw up.
Can it get any worse?
#7
Moses
on
2008-04-01 12:35
We have before us a perfect example of why Bishop Nikolai has and will continue to fail in Alaska or where ever he goes. After all that has happened, after all the testimony of people and clergy describing their abuse at his hands, after all the examples given of how he and his "housemate" have treated people poorly accross our great land, still, all he sees is that it is about him and how he feels. It has always been about him, from his seemingly unending need for praise from everyone, to his apparent inability to stand anywhere on a floor unless there is a eagle rug placed there, to his need for lavish dinner praising him after a full five years of "sevice" to the diocese spending thousands of dollars when his Priests cannot feed their families, to stopping the services and glaring if even a small child moves when he is blessing, to his and Fr. Isadores, smirking and chuckling about people behind their backs, to his vindictiveness and just plain meanness to everyone. I have never seen anyone in my life who was so self absorbed. This is the man the OCA put over Alaska as a spiritual guide? Does anyone even really believe that this man is a Christian? There is more love being given to the oppressed people of Alaska now by non orthodox people on the street who are reading our story than this false bishop ever thought of giving to his charges.
I encourage everyone in alaska, clergy, and lay people, never, never accept him back. Leave the OCA if he wins this fight and go to the Greeks or the Antiocheans. Find a good spiritual father and learn to pray. If this interloper is what the OCA thinks is best for us, there is nothing left of the OCA that is of any value to you in your spiritual life.
I encourage everyone in alaska, clergy, and lay people, never, never accept him back. Leave the OCA if he wins this fight and go to the Greeks or the Antiocheans. Find a good spiritual father and learn to pray. If this interloper is what the OCA thinks is best for us, there is nothing left of the OCA that is of any value to you in your spiritual life.
#8
annon
on
2008-04-01 12:45
SVS Faculty: We stand with the priests, deacons, and faithful who have courageously spoken out about their untenable situation.
Thank God for this powerful statement! Of course, it remains to be seen whether the Holy Synod will listen to them. Let's pray that they will.
Thank God for this powerful statement! Of course, it remains to be seen whether the Holy Synod will listen to them. Let's pray that they will.
#9
Fr. Daniel Swires
on
2008-04-01 13:11
AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!
Finally... Thanks be to God!
This paragraphs says it all:
" Conciliarity, unity, and transparency — the vision of the first pastors of the Orthodox Church in America — have apparently been abandoned. The Alaskan situation is more than simply the most recent manifestation of this tragedy. When one member suffers, the whole body suffers, and so the whole Church is in pain when an entire diocese is afflicted. We stand at a seismic moment: the future of the Orthodox Church in America is at risk. "
Thank you SVS faculty and priests for the courage, integrity, and love for the flock and Christ's Church.
Finally... Thanks be to God!
This paragraphs says it all:
" Conciliarity, unity, and transparency — the vision of the first pastors of the Orthodox Church in America — have apparently been abandoned. The Alaskan situation is more than simply the most recent manifestation of this tragedy. When one member suffers, the whole body suffers, and so the whole Church is in pain when an entire diocese is afflicted. We stand at a seismic moment: the future of the Orthodox Church in America is at risk. "
Thank you SVS faculty and priests for the courage, integrity, and love for the flock and Christ's Church.
Heart felt thanks to the faculty of St Vladimir's for their support of the Church in Alaska and for their recognition of the failure of our bishops to live up to their high calling. Would that St Tikhon's follow their lead.
The response of our bishops to this plea will reveal much about their integrity and their witness to Christ.
The response of our bishops to this plea will reveal much about their integrity and their witness to Christ.
#11
david paynter
on
2008-04-01 13:36
Spectacular. Every new day brings more news of the breathtaking stupidity of our bishops. The Met won't let Fr. Michael speak. How do the faithful recall a metropolitan? What are the mechanisms to get someone tried? We simply have no bishops, no one above the rank of parish priest to trust. The bishops have made themselves completely irrelevant.
#12
anon
on
2008-04-01 13:58
If the point of the SVS statement is to get Bishop Nikolai out of Alaska, then why not come right out and say it?
It might have been better if their statement was in solidarity with the students and faculty of St Herman's in Kodiak. Getting sucked into this Alaskan mess does exactly what to bring this issue to a conclusion?
Sounds to me like Fr Oleksa, now beating the war drums on the east coast and with willing participant Fr Hatfield and Deacon Wheler, in the SVS statement, exposes a rather transparent attempt to make it impossible for Nikolai to even have a chance to be reconciled with his flock.
Nikolai, guilty. Trial, not needed. The people have spoken.
It might have been better if their statement was in solidarity with the students and faculty of St Herman's in Kodiak. Getting sucked into this Alaskan mess does exactly what to bring this issue to a conclusion?
Sounds to me like Fr Oleksa, now beating the war drums on the east coast and with willing participant Fr Hatfield and Deacon Wheler, in the SVS statement, exposes a rather transparent attempt to make it impossible for Nikolai to even have a chance to be reconciled with his flock.
Nikolai, guilty. Trial, not needed. The people have spoken.
#13
Anonymous
on
2008-04-01 14:10
To the faculty of SVOTS --
Thank you!
I realize that the decision to speak out must have been difficult given your canonical relationship to +MH and your role as an institution training priests on behalf, in a sense, of the bishops.
Maybe they will listen. I'm not holding my breath at this point, but if they don't listen they can't say that no one told them.
Thank you!
I realize that the decision to speak out must have been difficult given your canonical relationship to +MH and your role as an institution training priests on behalf, in a sense, of the bishops.
Maybe they will listen. I'm not holding my breath at this point, but if they don't listen they can't say that no one told them.
#14
Rebecca Matovic
on
2008-04-01 14:18
Shame, shame, shame on this Metropolitan, the bishop of Alaska, and those bishop's who continue to enable them both. They are all a disgrace to the episcopacy of the Church, and are apparently being deluded by demonic influences. As we pray for their repentance and deliverence from prelest, we must support and pray fervently for the many responsible clergy and lay leaders in the Church, such as those at St. Vladimir's.
In the early Church the faithful expected our Lord Jesus Christ to return in their lifetime so they began to keep the vigil on Saturday evenings in expectation of our Lord's return on a Sunday. When one studies the liturgical calendar of the Church in the light of Holy Scripture and history, there is a rich eschatological significance associated with the first Sunday of Holy Week, Palm Sunday. Having completed the preparation period of Lent, it would seem that more of the faithful would likely be prepared as the "wise virgins." Interestly this year, the full moon of Passover also falls on Palm Sunday. Perhaps our Lord will come and begin the judgments associated with the resurrection harvest of the Day of the Lord. This would spare us the bitter disapointment of another failed council of the OCA's SOB.
What is happening to the OCA now, and what has happened to the whole Church during the last ninety years in this increasingly evil world, sure adds deeper meaning to our Lord’s admonition: “Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man (Luke 21:36).”
In the early Church the faithful expected our Lord Jesus Christ to return in their lifetime so they began to keep the vigil on Saturday evenings in expectation of our Lord's return on a Sunday. When one studies the liturgical calendar of the Church in the light of Holy Scripture and history, there is a rich eschatological significance associated with the first Sunday of Holy Week, Palm Sunday. Having completed the preparation period of Lent, it would seem that more of the faithful would likely be prepared as the "wise virgins." Interestly this year, the full moon of Passover also falls on Palm Sunday. Perhaps our Lord will come and begin the judgments associated with the resurrection harvest of the Day of the Lord. This would spare us the bitter disapointment of another failed council of the OCA's SOB.
What is happening to the OCA now, and what has happened to the whole Church during the last ninety years in this increasingly evil world, sure adds deeper meaning to our Lord’s admonition: “Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man (Luke 21:36).”
#15
Marc Trolinger
on
2008-04-01 14:39
Mark,
I am a member of the Diocese of the West. I can't help but sense the urgency of the situation in Alaska is beginning to snowball, and without some real intervention, it will become yet more and more unmanageable. The letter out of St. Vlads indicates this trend all the more.
We here in the West are watching all this very closely, awaiting the responses of the Second Inquiry, and curious as to the next step of the HSOB. If they, again do nothing, what is to be done? Can we, here and elsewhere, stand aside as our brethren in Alaska continue to suffer under a farcical leadership that continues to stain the glorious "cradle of American Orthodoxy"?
I am a member of the Diocese of the West. I can't help but sense the urgency of the situation in Alaska is beginning to snowball, and without some real intervention, it will become yet more and more unmanageable. The letter out of St. Vlads indicates this trend all the more.
We here in the West are watching all this very closely, awaiting the responses of the Second Inquiry, and curious as to the next step of the HSOB. If they, again do nothing, what is to be done? Can we, here and elsewhere, stand aside as our brethren in Alaska continue to suffer under a farcical leadership that continues to stain the glorious "cradle of American Orthodoxy"?
#16
A Concerned Member in the West
on
2008-04-01 15:04
Why yes, Moses, it always does.
#17
Staupitz
on
2008-04-01 15:59
Now who wouldn't agree that we need the resignations of all the bishops of the OCA? All diocese can be run by senior Archpriests until a new diocese bishop can be found. Will this happen? Only if the people cease giving any monies to Syosset. It really is too bad that the SOB's are forcing the faithful against them, but it really is clear. Depleting the central church to a bishop, a secretary and a computer is probably the way to go!
#18
Anonymous
on
2008-04-01 16:00
If you harbored the thought that reconciliation was possible, you really have no idea what has been happening up here, have no idea how hard it was for Alaska Native clergy to speak up and . . . are generally either clueless or one of Nikolai's supporters. His self-comparison to Christ revealed just how far from reconciliation he is since he still doesn't get it.
#19
Anonymous
on
2008-04-01 16:04
Well said, annon.
A general question: Do bishop's undergo personality testing in the same way as seminary applicants do?
A general question: Do bishop's undergo personality testing in the same way as seminary applicants do?
#20
Anthony
on
2008-04-01 16:10
The people of Russia were somehow able to expel the Russian Metropolitan who signed the accord of Florence. He spent the rest of his life in Rome kissing the popes hand.
The goal for all believing Christians is to pray that +BN will repent, ask forgiveness from all those whom he has damaged, go the the grave of Dr Lydia and ask her forgiveness, the list goes on. True humility on his part would help and perhaps as a final step he could separate himself from his 'roommate' who needs to be come a big boy and live on his own.
I pray for +BN and for all of you wonderful people of the OCA in the midst of your Alaska trials and the financial skulduggery that has taken place in Syosset. The steps that I state that +BN needs to take need to be taken by TPTB in the lower 48 as well.
Personally (and maybe I shouldn't say this, my wife says that I am too warlike), I think that +BN will have many problems in Alaska if he remains there; the people of Alaska have a warrior tradition. My suggestion is, if +BN shows up at a church, block the doors with bodies so that he can't enter without violence and if he gets in, depart so that he is unable to have a liturgy with nobody to participate.
The goal for all believing Christians is to pray that +BN will repent, ask forgiveness from all those whom he has damaged, go the the grave of Dr Lydia and ask her forgiveness, the list goes on. True humility on his part would help and perhaps as a final step he could separate himself from his 'roommate' who needs to be come a big boy and live on his own.
I pray for +BN and for all of you wonderful people of the OCA in the midst of your Alaska trials and the financial skulduggery that has taken place in Syosset. The steps that I state that +BN needs to take need to be taken by TPTB in the lower 48 as well.
Personally (and maybe I shouldn't say this, my wife says that I am too warlike), I think that +BN will have many problems in Alaska if he remains there; the people of Alaska have a warrior tradition. My suggestion is, if +BN shows up at a church, block the doors with bodies so that he can't enter without violence and if he gets in, depart so that he is unable to have a liturgy with nobody to participate.
#21
Former OCA member
on
2008-04-01 16:12
Perhaps it is time for a true schism. I like the sound of AOCOOCA (the Alaskan Orthodox Church Outside of the Orthodox Church of America).
#22
annon
on
2008-04-01 16:26
Thank you very much St. Vlads!!!!! Through your prayers and support we will get through this here in Alaska!!!! Thank you.
#23
Anna
on
2008-04-01 16:48
In what sense do you think Nicholai would be "reconciled" to his flock? How about this for starters: a public prostration before the Alaskan clergy and their families, with a simple forgive me. That would a Lenten act. But, alas, not likely to be one Nicholai would do for the sake of "reconciliation"!
#24
Anonymous
on
2008-04-01 16:54
News from Alaska, priests are losing hope. We have one priest that took off his cross and cassock and is leaving the priesthood. A lot more will follow very soon. Please help us.
(Editor's note: It has been reported, but not confirmed that Fr.Michael Trefon, of Naknek, Alaska, on Bristol Bay, has indeed resigned. )
(Editor's note: It has been reported, but not confirmed that Fr.Michael Trefon, of Naknek, Alaska, on Bristol Bay, has indeed resigned. )
#25
No name
on
2008-04-01 17:12
I think I am going to start learning Antiochian or Greek/Byzantine chant, because I have a feeling that I won't be OCA much longer.
(Editor's note: Just a while longer, please.)
(Editor's note: Just a while longer, please.)
#26
pessimistus
on
2008-04-01 17:43
Just when I think things cant get any worse----they do. I just cant believe that there are no real leaders of the church. The so called bishop of Alaska restored. And excuses for everything. AND to top it off h is using the Holy Days of the Orthodox church to make excuses and make the faithfull tow his line and adgenda. He stated the day of the cross. He just doesnt get the real meaning of the Holy Day. Otherwise he would not use Holy Days and quotes from the bible to his own ends. But the ends will be very different for some of the bishops. I truly feel so sorry for them. They just dont know the meaning of the word "TRUTH"
John Macenka
John Macenka
No worries about the caps from this end. Much better than the expletives that occurred to me as I pondered the most recent bit of timeless wisdom from His lamentable Beatitude. Goodness gracious, do these men have even the faintest idea of how abysmally clueless they really are? Priceless, indeed.
#28
Scott Walker
on
2008-04-01 18:21
What is the autocephalous Orthodox Church in America's constitutional mechanism for investigation and deposition of a ruling hierarch? All human organizations dealing with tenured professors, judges on the bench, corporate CEO's, sitting presidents and elected officials in the House, etc., have well-stated pathways to follow. What mechanism applies in the constitutions of other Orthodox patriarchates or autocephalous Churches, and can that be of help in this situation?
Can a cunning Bishop exploit the gap between civil and ecclesiastical law? Could a sitting hierarch be quite conscious of the difficulty the OCA has in appealing to a higher ecclesiastical authority? Should a bishop invoke the canonical letter of the law over the conciliar spirit of the law?
For better or worse, this has forced a conversation which is bound to come up sooner or later. How it is dealt with here will set a precedent which the Church will have to live with for some time.
These are valid questions and ones which need to be examined and refined, by the whole Church, especially now. However, in absence of modern day Ecumenical Councils, in which issues such as these related to the diasphora can be adjudicated, what standard can be applied here? How do we, as laity, as clergy, as Christians, maintain a delicate balance that is pleasing to God, at times like this, fraught with confusion, cynicism, and pain?
In spite of our signature 'lack of onesidedness' (thank you, Professor Verhovskoy), the Orthodox standard which supercedes all others is the principle of 'economia': do what is best for the edification of the Church. If the people of Alaska are withdrawing their 'axios' from their hierarch, as is their right and their duty, what good can come of leaving him there? What spiritual good can come to him, and what spiritual good can come to the flock entrusted to him by God? A good shepherd leaves his whole flock to rescue the lost sheep who calls to him in the night. We can expect no less of a Synod of Bishops who act in imitation of Christ. Nor should we expect less, for we are called to answer for our brothers just as bishops are called to answer for our souls.
There comes a time when the Archangel Gabriel is sent to bear a message of peace, reconciliation and good news, but there also comes a time when the Archangel Michael is sent with a sword to cut off that which is withered in spirit and bears no fruit. I pray that the two bishops who are en route to Alaska will approach in the spirit of both for they have the awesome responsibility of rightly defining the word of God's truth. This cannot be easy for them, so instead of maligning them before they have a chance to act, they need our collective prayers. We need less gossip and more gospel if the dream of an indigenous Orthodoxy on our land is to survive and thrive.
Georges Florovsky said, "Surely, the ultimate destiny of man is not decided on the battlefields, nor in the deliberations of clever men. The destiny of man is decided in human hearts."
By extension, the destiny of this Church is not decided on the internet, or on television, or in a closed Synod of Bishops' board room. Its destiny is decided in human hearts. We need to guard ours carefully, judiciously, and hopefully, and keep faith that God is with us. I believe the Holy Spirit acts in and through us, and sometimes in spite of us.
Can a cunning Bishop exploit the gap between civil and ecclesiastical law? Could a sitting hierarch be quite conscious of the difficulty the OCA has in appealing to a higher ecclesiastical authority? Should a bishop invoke the canonical letter of the law over the conciliar spirit of the law?
For better or worse, this has forced a conversation which is bound to come up sooner or later. How it is dealt with here will set a precedent which the Church will have to live with for some time.
These are valid questions and ones which need to be examined and refined, by the whole Church, especially now. However, in absence of modern day Ecumenical Councils, in which issues such as these related to the diasphora can be adjudicated, what standard can be applied here? How do we, as laity, as clergy, as Christians, maintain a delicate balance that is pleasing to God, at times like this, fraught with confusion, cynicism, and pain?
In spite of our signature 'lack of onesidedness' (thank you, Professor Verhovskoy), the Orthodox standard which supercedes all others is the principle of 'economia': do what is best for the edification of the Church. If the people of Alaska are withdrawing their 'axios' from their hierarch, as is their right and their duty, what good can come of leaving him there? What spiritual good can come to him, and what spiritual good can come to the flock entrusted to him by God? A good shepherd leaves his whole flock to rescue the lost sheep who calls to him in the night. We can expect no less of a Synod of Bishops who act in imitation of Christ. Nor should we expect less, for we are called to answer for our brothers just as bishops are called to answer for our souls.
There comes a time when the Archangel Gabriel is sent to bear a message of peace, reconciliation and good news, but there also comes a time when the Archangel Michael is sent with a sword to cut off that which is withered in spirit and bears no fruit. I pray that the two bishops who are en route to Alaska will approach in the spirit of both for they have the awesome responsibility of rightly defining the word of God's truth. This cannot be easy for them, so instead of maligning them before they have a chance to act, they need our collective prayers. We need less gossip and more gospel if the dream of an indigenous Orthodoxy on our land is to survive and thrive.
Georges Florovsky said, "Surely, the ultimate destiny of man is not decided on the battlefields, nor in the deliberations of clever men. The destiny of man is decided in human hearts."
By extension, the destiny of this Church is not decided on the internet, or on television, or in a closed Synod of Bishops' board room. Its destiny is decided in human hearts. We need to guard ours carefully, judiciously, and hopefully, and keep faith that God is with us. I believe the Holy Spirit acts in and through us, and sometimes in spite of us.
#29
Dianne Farah
on
2008-04-01 18:34
No, no one can stand aside. It is time to rise up in support of the people of Alaska, standing in solidarity with them and the faculty of SVS. Let your voices be heard! Sign your name to your support, so your bishop will know where you stand! The time is now!
#30
Fr. Daniel Swires
on
2008-04-01 19:17
Thank you SVOTS faculty. A long time coming but you finally did it.
Now, can we have the same or similar response from the clergy and faculty at STOTS? Do you have the courage and faith to stand along side your brothers?
Lord have Mercy.
Now, can we have the same or similar response from the clergy and faculty at STOTS? Do you have the courage and faith to stand along side your brothers?
Lord have Mercy.
#31
Hal Pukita
on
2008-04-01 19:31
I may be repeating myself on this one.
A priest once related to me some act of egregiousness directed against him by a bishop. At the end of the story, he asked "how long would this be tolerated in a corporation or in the military?" I thought for a moment and said "about five minutes."
My experience may well be limited, but in the twenty-two years I've been working on Wall Street (both on the buy and sell side), and in the twenty-one years since I've been received into Orthodoxy, I have experienced more moral and fiscal rectitude in the financial services sector than in the Orthodox Church.
A priest once related to me some act of egregiousness directed against him by a bishop. At the end of the story, he asked "how long would this be tolerated in a corporation or in the military?" I thought for a moment and said "about five minutes."
My experience may well be limited, but in the twenty-two years I've been working on Wall Street (both on the buy and sell side), and in the twenty-one years since I've been received into Orthodoxy, I have experienced more moral and fiscal rectitude in the financial services sector than in the Orthodox Church.
#32
Edmund Unneland
on
2008-04-01 19:40
Yes, it is essential for us to hear from one of our "advisers" who we have paid to represent our interests. Up until now the SOB has circled the wagons around archaic and self-serving notions of authority, hierarchy and conciliarity. Was Fr. Rentel aiding and abetting these notions (aka fueling them), or was he trying to move them toward a healthy theology? Given the timing of his tenure, one is tempted to believe the former, but we must suspend judgment until we hear from Fr. Rentel himself. Let us hope he does not pull a Syosset (aka stonewall with silence). Please speak, Fr. Rentel, we are anxious to hear from you.
#33
Anon.
on
2008-04-01 20:19
Folks, not to rub it in, but some of us have seen this coming 10, even 20 years ago, but when we spoke up, everyone gave us pious-sounding rebukes for disobedience. We are still here. So don't lose heart. See this for what it is, you were living under the fantasy of an OCA that was just that, a fantasy, a play world; it never existed. Now you are finally realizing the real world in which you have been living, and it is not pretty. Take that despair and frustration and channel it into constructive action... and do not take no for an answer... and do not be intimidated by the wolves in sheep's clothing any longer. The awakening of the sleeping OCA laity and clergy (and a lone bishop) is upon us. It is a new day. Seize it. The Holy Spirit will "guide us into all truth."
It is about time St. Vlads woke up. I have been asking myself where St. Vlads was and why these thinking people have been intimidated into silence all this time.
It is about time St. Vlads woke up. I have been asking myself where St. Vlads was and why these thinking people have been intimidated into silence all this time.
#34
Anon.
on
2008-04-01 20:28
More to the point than an online petition, perhaps something that will actually get attention is in order.
A bishop on the west coast has said that if a parish witholds money from the national church, he will take their antimension off their hands. OK, perhaps every parish could be persuaded to do so. I'm sure he would threaten to do this with each and every one. Fine. Let him be the first bishop (perhaps?) in 2000 years to have zero eucharists being celebrated in his diocese. To take the spark plugs out of every altar. There would be a message sent. If all the parishes in the OCA did it, I think even this bag of hammers might get the message. Let's knock this bridge down. Go to another SCOBA parish for a few weeks. Orthodox unity could be a byproduct of this problem. Tumors need starvation. Also, pray. But act first. Make some phone calls.
A bishop on the west coast has said that if a parish witholds money from the national church, he will take their antimension off their hands. OK, perhaps every parish could be persuaded to do so. I'm sure he would threaten to do this with each and every one. Fine. Let him be the first bishop (perhaps?) in 2000 years to have zero eucharists being celebrated in his diocese. To take the spark plugs out of every altar. There would be a message sent. If all the parishes in the OCA did it, I think even this bag of hammers might get the message. Let's knock this bridge down. Go to another SCOBA parish for a few weeks. Orthodox unity could be a byproduct of this problem. Tumors need starvation. Also, pray. But act first. Make some phone calls.
#35
anon
on
2008-04-01 22:58
This note is from Anchorage. As all of us await the two bishops arrival in Anchorage, none of us know which hotel they are staying, its a big mistery. Yet all of us have been informed that they will interview individuals one by one. Two white men in a hotel room interviewing clergy and laity one by one. Does this make any sense. A lot of us have a feeling like this entire issue has been resolved when BN has been put back in his diocese. We have a feeling like nothing will be accomplished, just going through the motions. This is OCA for you.
#36
No name
on
2008-04-02 00:12
All very good posts. It is amazing that we all think that the Church is the place where we can find goodness, uprightness, those following God, the people who do the "right thing." Yet, again and again we see that the hierarchs of the OCA aren't these people. It's time to change the leaders who have "other agendas."
Now that we've heard from those with courage at St. Vladimir's, how long do you think we'll have to wait to hear from those at St. Tikhon's?
Now that we've heard from those with courage at St. Vladimir's, how long do you think we'll have to wait to hear from those at St. Tikhon's?
#37
Anonymous
on
2008-04-02 05:26
A tree might be known by the fruit it bears, but didn't the snake tempt Eve from a tree?
#38
Anonymous
on
2008-04-02 06:04
I would imagine quite some time, although hope springs eternal.
One of the undercurrents of this virtual "civil war" in the OCA has been the diminished role of St. Vladimir's in the intellectual and spiritual life of the Church as it has been viewed with ever increasing suspicion and distrust by the "fundamentalist" element that holds such sway in the hierarchy and elsewhere (see comments on the Orthodox Forum). Now in a burst of inspirational courage and leadership they have rejoined the fray.
For those of us who have been on the front lines for over two years, a little relief and support will be most welcome. I should also add that now would be an appropriate time to resume financially supporting at least one of our seminaries.
KRT
One of the undercurrents of this virtual "civil war" in the OCA has been the diminished role of St. Vladimir's in the intellectual and spiritual life of the Church as it has been viewed with ever increasing suspicion and distrust by the "fundamentalist" element that holds such sway in the hierarchy and elsewhere (see comments on the Orthodox Forum). Now in a burst of inspirational courage and leadership they have rejoined the fray.
For those of us who have been on the front lines for over two years, a little relief and support will be most welcome. I should also add that now would be an appropriate time to resume financially supporting at least one of our seminaries.
KRT
#39
Kenneth R. Tobin
on
2008-04-02 06:09
They did it because of Fr. Chad Hatfield. This man KNOWS what's going on in Alaska being the former Dean at St. Herman's. Wasn't it Fr. Hatfield who noted the Vagisil in Isidore's room? Doesn't take much imagination what THAT is about.
We salute Fr. Chad for bringing the power and prestige of St. Vlad's and living up to their mission to provide leaders and clergy for the future.
We salute Fr. Chad for bringing the power and prestige of St. Vlad's and living up to their mission to provide leaders and clergy for the future.
#40
Anonymous
on
2008-04-02 06:29
"What is the autocephalous Orthodox Church in America's constitutional mechanism for investigation and deposition of a ruling hierarch?"
from the Statute of the OCA (note carefully Sec. 7.e., and see my comment at the end):
Section 7 The Holy Synod and the Judgment of Bishops
a. Accusations against bishops are referred directly to the Holy Synod, which is the court of first instance empowered to pass judgment in such cases.
b. If the accusations are considered to have substance either by the Metropolitan or by at least three members of the Holy Synod, and after the accuser's good character, irreproachable standing in the Church, and motivation have been established, the accused shall be summoned and judged by the Holy Synod in closed session. In cases of grave accusations involving the possibility of canonical deposition, the accused shall be called through a formal summons presented to him in person by three bishops.
c. If the accused refuses to appear after receiving three summonses, the Holy Synod shall suspend him from his duties and judge him in absentia.
d. Penalties against bishops judged guilty after trial, as well as against false accusers, are prescribed by the canons of the ecumenical and local councils and the holy fathers.
e. A judgment of deposition or defrocking of a bishop has final validity only when signed by at least 12 bishops. (If such need arises, bishops may be invited from neighboring ecclesiastical provinces to complete the quorum.)
f. The judgments of the Holy Synod are final, except for those instances which the canons reserve to the judgment of the universal Church.
From the OCA web site: "The Holy Synod is the supreme canonical authority in the Church. It includes, as voting members, all the diocesan bishops of the Church."
There are 8 diocesan bishops, +MH, and 2 auxiliaries. Subtract +Nikolai, that makes a total of 10. So now you have to get maybe 7 bishops from outside the OCA, assuming there might be a 50-50 split amongst the OCA bishops.
Hope this helps.
from the Statute of the OCA (note carefully Sec. 7.e., and see my comment at the end):
Section 7 The Holy Synod and the Judgment of Bishops
a. Accusations against bishops are referred directly to the Holy Synod, which is the court of first instance empowered to pass judgment in such cases.
b. If the accusations are considered to have substance either by the Metropolitan or by at least three members of the Holy Synod, and after the accuser's good character, irreproachable standing in the Church, and motivation have been established, the accused shall be summoned and judged by the Holy Synod in closed session. In cases of grave accusations involving the possibility of canonical deposition, the accused shall be called through a formal summons presented to him in person by three bishops.
c. If the accused refuses to appear after receiving three summonses, the Holy Synod shall suspend him from his duties and judge him in absentia.
d. Penalties against bishops judged guilty after trial, as well as against false accusers, are prescribed by the canons of the ecumenical and local councils and the holy fathers.
e. A judgment of deposition or defrocking of a bishop has final validity only when signed by at least 12 bishops. (If such need arises, bishops may be invited from neighboring ecclesiastical provinces to complete the quorum.)
f. The judgments of the Holy Synod are final, except for those instances which the canons reserve to the judgment of the universal Church.
From the OCA web site: "The Holy Synod is the supreme canonical authority in the Church. It includes, as voting members, all the diocesan bishops of the Church."
There are 8 diocesan bishops, +MH, and 2 auxiliaries. Subtract +Nikolai, that makes a total of 10. So now you have to get maybe 7 bishops from outside the OCA, assuming there might be a 50-50 split amongst the OCA bishops.
Hope this helps.
#41
Michael Strelka
on
2008-04-02 07:45
The solutions seem obvious enough:
(1) Stop sending money through channels that send money to Syosset.
(2) Start sending money directly to the courageous men and women in the OCA who are standing up for the truth and suffering persecution for it, and to Orthodox institutions and charities (whether in or outside of the OCA) that have modeled a respectable standard of stewardship.
(3) Start preparing AAC resolutions calling on the members of the Holy Synod to step down (and the speeches that will be offered in support thereof). For canonical purposes the resolutions may need to be non-binding, but I am not aware of any canons prohibiting a non-binding resolutions.
(4) Pressure the Special Commitee to issue an interim report before the AAC. The interim report should summarize the findings to date and announce what the scope of the final report will be. It is unreasonable to wait for the AAC, especially when the investigation is proceeding at a glacial pace, the history of the SIC formation raises doubts about its determination and independence, and nobody has any idea what the scope of its final report will be.
(5) Commence legal action against the officers of the church who may have committed breaches of their fiduciary obligations. The legal action should be initiated by someone on the Metropolitan Council or the Synod. There is no reason to wait for the final SIC report, as it is highly unlikely that the final report will single out those responsible.
And, of course, keep praying for the Church, for our hierarchs, for all who have been affected by this crisis, for repentence and real change, not just words and empty promises.
(1) Stop sending money through channels that send money to Syosset.
(2) Start sending money directly to the courageous men and women in the OCA who are standing up for the truth and suffering persecution for it, and to Orthodox institutions and charities (whether in or outside of the OCA) that have modeled a respectable standard of stewardship.
(3) Start preparing AAC resolutions calling on the members of the Holy Synod to step down (and the speeches that will be offered in support thereof). For canonical purposes the resolutions may need to be non-binding, but I am not aware of any canons prohibiting a non-binding resolutions.
(4) Pressure the Special Commitee to issue an interim report before the AAC. The interim report should summarize the findings to date and announce what the scope of the final report will be. It is unreasonable to wait for the AAC, especially when the investigation is proceeding at a glacial pace, the history of the SIC formation raises doubts about its determination and independence, and nobody has any idea what the scope of its final report will be.
(5) Commence legal action against the officers of the church who may have committed breaches of their fiduciary obligations. The legal action should be initiated by someone on the Metropolitan Council or the Synod. There is no reason to wait for the final SIC report, as it is highly unlikely that the final report will single out those responsible.
And, of course, keep praying for the Church, for our hierarchs, for all who have been affected by this crisis, for repentence and real change, not just words and empty promises.
#42
Robert Wachter
on
2008-04-02 07:50
Our church fathers refer to the time of the fast as "Joyful Sorrow". For the third year in a row, our sorrow finds no joy in the earthly misguiding of our hearts by our bishops.
How can they (the bishops) possibly serve the weekly Matins and Pre-Sanctified Liturgies and pray, "...take from me the spirit of sloth, despair, lust for power and idle talk..." when they themselves are slothful, arrogant and holding for power. It is no wonder the Church is divided, and the oneness of God distributed among hundreds of Christian denominations.
Last year, we read a moving post by Bishop Job, who related how he could not find Joy in serving the service of Holy Pascha. Is his joy still removed? Is it so for any of the bishops - none of whom have taken a salary freeze / pay cut - all of whom make well over $75,000 - $100,000!
And, now, to add insult to expense, two bishops fly to Alaska to duplicate the work of Fr. G, surely meticulous and forthright.
Do these same bishops truly believe that they are "saved"? Former Bishop Peter of NY/NJ for the millions that he "stole" in funneling money to his housekeeper and building a home in the Caribbean? (Can we talk about this on the website?) +MH for now saying once again to "move on"?
Our nation is crying for Christ. It is longing for God and his truth, yet despite 9/11 and the world's continued threats our leaders do not get it and we as laity are forced to find God in our own self, not from wanting, but from need. For, how can we confess to you while you continue to steal from us? While you allow other churches to be more successful than our own, all for your self-gain!
How much more can we stand to hear and how much more will we not be told?
I fear, like rumors in Syosset, that the problems in Alaska are indeed linked to sexual misconduct. Power. Money. Sex. And, this to me is the most disturbing. If Fr. G's report links this and the Bishops are flying to clean it up / cover it up, there are bigger problems than we know, just as there were in Syosset between clergy and staff.
It's time to face the truth. It is time for our bishops to resign and repent. Its time perhaps for us to dig deeper into the link between money, power and sex in our church - clergy and staff - because it seems that from such embarrassment resignation action may be taken.
It's all so very sad.
How can they (the bishops) possibly serve the weekly Matins and Pre-Sanctified Liturgies and pray, "...take from me the spirit of sloth, despair, lust for power and idle talk..." when they themselves are slothful, arrogant and holding for power. It is no wonder the Church is divided, and the oneness of God distributed among hundreds of Christian denominations.
Last year, we read a moving post by Bishop Job, who related how he could not find Joy in serving the service of Holy Pascha. Is his joy still removed? Is it so for any of the bishops - none of whom have taken a salary freeze / pay cut - all of whom make well over $75,000 - $100,000!
And, now, to add insult to expense, two bishops fly to Alaska to duplicate the work of Fr. G, surely meticulous and forthright.
Do these same bishops truly believe that they are "saved"? Former Bishop Peter of NY/NJ for the millions that he "stole" in funneling money to his housekeeper and building a home in the Caribbean? (Can we talk about this on the website?) +MH for now saying once again to "move on"?
Our nation is crying for Christ. It is longing for God and his truth, yet despite 9/11 and the world's continued threats our leaders do not get it and we as laity are forced to find God in our own self, not from wanting, but from need. For, how can we confess to you while you continue to steal from us? While you allow other churches to be more successful than our own, all for your self-gain!
How much more can we stand to hear and how much more will we not be told?
I fear, like rumors in Syosset, that the problems in Alaska are indeed linked to sexual misconduct. Power. Money. Sex. And, this to me is the most disturbing. If Fr. G's report links this and the Bishops are flying to clean it up / cover it up, there are bigger problems than we know, just as there were in Syosset between clergy and staff.
It's time to face the truth. It is time for our bishops to resign and repent. Its time perhaps for us to dig deeper into the link between money, power and sex in our church - clergy and staff - because it seems that from such embarrassment resignation action may be taken.
It's all so very sad.
#43
Anonymous
on
2008-04-02 08:36
It looks as though an alternate agenda to what is officially being prepared for the AAC is going to be essential. According to Met. Herman's address to the MC on Monday:
>> Time
will be taken to discuss the scandal that has taken up so much of our
attention and energy since the last All-American Council. However, as
critical as it is to address this matter, we must not allow ourselves
to become paralyzed by it. We must learn from the past, and there are
valuable lessons to learn from the events of recent years about
accountability, transparency and servant leadership. However, learning
from the past, we must not live in it. A good pastor would thus
encourage a parishioner who had experienced a traumatic moment in his
or her life. This must also be the advice that we follow as a Church
>> Time
will be taken to discuss the scandal that has taken up so much of our
attention and energy since the last All-American Council. However, as
critical as it is to address this matter, we must not allow ourselves
to become paralyzed by it. We must learn from the past, and there are
valuable lessons to learn from the events of recent years about
accountability, transparency and servant leadership. However, learning
from the past, we must not live in it. A good pastor would thus
encourage a parishioner who had experienced a traumatic moment in his
or her life. This must also be the advice that we follow as a Church
#44
Rachel Andreyev
on
2008-04-02 09:01
Doctrine 101
"The people ARE the Church." The people are the body of Christ - Christ lives in them. The bishops and priests are there to "SERVE" the body of Christ. When the priests and/or bishops cease serving the body of Christ, the people, they need to be returned to the laos. Bishops nor priests are NOT chosen forever. If they cease serving who they were appointed to serve, they must be removed.
"The people ARE the Church." The people are the body of Christ - Christ lives in them. The bishops and priests are there to "SERVE" the body of Christ. When the priests and/or bishops cease serving the body of Christ, the people, they need to be returned to the laos. Bishops nor priests are NOT chosen forever. If they cease serving who they were appointed to serve, they must be removed.
#45
Anonymous
on
2008-04-02 09:09
This is all so sad and heartbreaking, that I can't bear to keep silent any longer. To all those in Alaska that have suffered for too long, and risked so much in speaking out, please know that your borthers and sisters throughout the OCA, even in Delaware love you and are lifting you up to the Lord. It may seem hopeless that good things will ever come again in the OCA, but that is why we trust in God and not men. I am continually humbled by the good words and works of those I have judged wrongly, so let us continue to have hope, while at the same time speaking the truth and never allowing those who have wronged us to tear us away from our love of God and His Church.
May God have mercy on us!
May God have mercy on us!
#46
Jon Whalen
on
2008-04-02 09:28
One of the things I have learned through having a child receiving special education and related services in the schools is that a plan that spells out what must be done is of no value if the plan does not also spell out how it will be done and who will do it. Without those details, nothing happens.
I have also learned the value of specificity, persistence, and coordinated effort.
So, Mr. Wachter, could I ask you to expand on your plan? For point (1): Which channels for giving funnel their money to or through Syosset? Can someone provide a list? Your local parish? The seminaries? OCMC? I am not entirely sure, and I suspect others aren't either. Who could provide a list?
For point (2): Which Orthodox charities and organizations are squeaky clean from a financial point of view? Would it be possible for someone to provide a list of these organizations, with their addresses, along with a list of missions, Alaskan parishes, defrocked priests who are in need, or others to whom we should direct our contributions? When we give in this way, should we, at the same time, notify our parish priest, or diocesan bishop, the OCA treasurer, or someone else that we are doing so? Could someone generate a form letter or email that could be posted online with the list of addresses, so that those who wish to do so may copy the text from it, fill in the blanks as appropriate, and send it every time a donation is sent to an alternative channel?
For point (3): I have no idea who could do this or how it could be done. I know there's a place on the OCA website for sending in concerns and such, but I don't trust it. Who goes to the AAC anyway? How do we communicate with them? Are there people who would be effective, but can't afford to go? If so, can the rest of us offer to help financially so they can attend?
For point (4): Can you provide a list of all the members of the SIC, with their email addresses, snailmail addresses, and telephone numbers? I know I could probably dig around and find it, but having it in a single place would be helpful.
For point (5): This sounds good, but is there anyone on the MC or the Synod who would be willing to do this? How would the rest of us encourage that person (or those persons) to do it? Is there an attorney who would be willing or able to provide the needed representation for such a service on a pro bono basis? If not, where would the funds come from to do it?
If you, or someone else, could provide the needed information, would Mark be willing to add it to the "What You Can Do" page on this site, where it would be easy to access? If so, I'd be willing to draft a form letter/email in support of (2): I'm a professional writer, and that would be easy enough for me to do. But someone needs to make sure that all of these tasks have a real person assigned to do them, with enough detail to make it doable, and a deadline. It seems to me that's the only way it will get done.
I have also learned the value of specificity, persistence, and coordinated effort.
So, Mr. Wachter, could I ask you to expand on your plan? For point (1): Which channels for giving funnel their money to or through Syosset? Can someone provide a list? Your local parish? The seminaries? OCMC? I am not entirely sure, and I suspect others aren't either. Who could provide a list?
For point (2): Which Orthodox charities and organizations are squeaky clean from a financial point of view? Would it be possible for someone to provide a list of these organizations, with their addresses, along with a list of missions, Alaskan parishes, defrocked priests who are in need, or others to whom we should direct our contributions? When we give in this way, should we, at the same time, notify our parish priest, or diocesan bishop, the OCA treasurer, or someone else that we are doing so? Could someone generate a form letter or email that could be posted online with the list of addresses, so that those who wish to do so may copy the text from it, fill in the blanks as appropriate, and send it every time a donation is sent to an alternative channel?
For point (3): I have no idea who could do this or how it could be done. I know there's a place on the OCA website for sending in concerns and such, but I don't trust it. Who goes to the AAC anyway? How do we communicate with them? Are there people who would be effective, but can't afford to go? If so, can the rest of us offer to help financially so they can attend?
For point (4): Can you provide a list of all the members of the SIC, with their email addresses, snailmail addresses, and telephone numbers? I know I could probably dig around and find it, but having it in a single place would be helpful.
For point (5): This sounds good, but is there anyone on the MC or the Synod who would be willing to do this? How would the rest of us encourage that person (or those persons) to do it? Is there an attorney who would be willing or able to provide the needed representation for such a service on a pro bono basis? If not, where would the funds come from to do it?
If you, or someone else, could provide the needed information, would Mark be willing to add it to the "What You Can Do" page on this site, where it would be easy to access? If so, I'd be willing to draft a form letter/email in support of (2): I'm a professional writer, and that would be easy enough for me to do. But someone needs to make sure that all of these tasks have a real person assigned to do them, with enough detail to make it doable, and a deadline. It seems to me that's the only way it will get done.
#47
josephine
on
2008-04-02 09:40
It has been reported that BN called MH and demanded that Fr. Alexander be removed for encoraging the Alaskan clergy to speak out. Please, can any one in the world tell us here Alaska, what will happen to all of us once BN is fully restored.
(editor's note: Since one of his first acts upon returning was annuling Fr. Oleksa's election by the clergy to the MC, confirmed by Fr. Garklavs, the Diocesan Administrator, I think you have your answer. There are two Bishops in Anchorage now. Speak to them.)
(editor's note: Since one of his first acts upon returning was annuling Fr. Oleksa's election by the clergy to the MC, confirmed by Fr. Garklavs, the Diocesan Administrator, I think you have your answer. There are two Bishops in Anchorage now. Speak to them.)
#48
no one
on
2008-04-02 10:15
Sorry to disagree with you! where are your facts that the bishops are doing nothing? I keep hearing Met Herman must go! but the facts are he has done everything right! Does St Vlads have the answers?I dont think so! you people need to chill out! HAVE A GREAT DAY!
#49
Anonymous
on
2008-04-02 10:22
Dear Dianne,
Excellently presented, in my opinion, both in content and presentation. Your commentary reflects the spirit of conversation that I wish was available to me/us in our parishes.
Excellently presented, in my opinion, both in content and presentation. Your commentary reflects the spirit of conversation that I wish was available to me/us in our parishes.
#50
Yvonne Martin
on
2008-04-02 11:02
I have to disagree. Its not bursting at the seams and there are not factions that are fighting for control. We have, basically the Synod vs. the faithful. There are a few lackey priests who are going to side with the Synod come hell or high water and faithful who like their bishops because they are ignorant to all that goes on. But for as much as they are ignorant and claim to like their priest and bishop they are not what you would consider a faction. The OCA is more unified than ever in its opposite to the immorality displayed by the Synod and its not new. The bishops have been the brunt of criticism for a good two years now and will continue to be the lightening rod because they are just not suited for the job they have been given.
Herman may want to make it seem like there are factions so it appears as if he’s got some people on his side, but he’s got nothing. Of course there are priests like Kucynda, Oselinski, and a few others who are going to toe the Herman line, but that’s it. Look at the commentary on this site, are there any people who side with Herman? Are there any people who side with the Synod that are not in some way complicit in all the problems that are going on? Is there anyone, outside of 4 or 5 people on the side of Nikolai? No. We’re not bursting at the seams, we’re going through a very painful process to expel episcopal corruption.
This Alaskan situation has proven the point all the more. The entire Church with the exception of its Synod is coming to the support of and rallying around the people in Alaska. It’s the Synod, not just Herman, that is increasingly isolated. The resignations of Rentel and Perry just prove it all the more. I wish that Garklavs backed up his great letter with a resignation on his part – it would have put an exclamation mark on what he said that no one would have misunderstood and put the Chancery into deserved turmoil and maybe caused a lot more to come to a head.
What should be done is people should be talking about revamping everything for when the war is over purging ourselves of these elements. We should be reviewing the statutes and seeing where they can be corrected so that the next time we face such intractable evil in our governance that we have something with teeth in which to handle it. Maybe we should just start on the statutes from the beginning. When we rid ourselves of Nikolai, we need to put the best practices in, again, with teeth. Those that have stolen from our Church should, at the minimum, have that amount reported to the IRS as income if people are loathe to send criminals to the jail they deserve to be in. Or we should make sure we recover what was “misappropriated” to the point of going after inheritances they leave. Death should not mark an end to criminal accountability. We need to carefully define and adhere to the bishop selection process. No more of this auxiliary garbage who is then shoved down the throats of the faithful. That garbage MUST, in no uncertain terms, CEASE. Bishops should be known before they are presented to the Synod so that they do not, behind our backs as they have, chose lackeys who will roll over and submit, not to the will of God, but to the will of the oldest and corruptest of the bishops. We need to pare down the central administration to suit the organization. You don’t need one person in Syosset for every 900 faithful.
A word on the investigation. This investigation up in Alaska is the equivalent of Hierarchical snake oil. Look, they sent up Tikhon to investigate. This is the same guy who has a priest in his diocese playing power games with the Eucharist and what does he do? When a person is denyed the sacrament Tikhon just gives it to the person himself. The priest who’s sacrileging the sacrament and putting his priesthood into peril has nothing to worry about, he even lied when he claimed he had Tikhon’s blessing to play these games! And Tikhon does nothing. This is the kind of hard line and desire to correct ills that is going to do wonders for Alaska. Tikhon is like a rhino. Fierce looking animals, but put your hand in their mouths and they can’t gum you to death. It might sound good sending him up there, but there’s no bite. I have no idea how they can even send him up there when we’re all waiting for his ecclesiology of the internet to be published. The most anticipated Orthodox work since the councils. Tikhon’s great ability to rectify situations resulted in JOB having to prostrate in apology to Nikolai for something that wound up being none of JOB’s doing. I guess that fact finding isn’t in the crisis resolution process of Tikhon. So, we can pretty much count on Tikhon to bend yet again to Nikolai’s ungodly ways and come out in his favor.
Herman may want to make it seem like there are factions so it appears as if he’s got some people on his side, but he’s got nothing. Of course there are priests like Kucynda, Oselinski, and a few others who are going to toe the Herman line, but that’s it. Look at the commentary on this site, are there any people who side with Herman? Are there any people who side with the Synod that are not in some way complicit in all the problems that are going on? Is there anyone, outside of 4 or 5 people on the side of Nikolai? No. We’re not bursting at the seams, we’re going through a very painful process to expel episcopal corruption.
This Alaskan situation has proven the point all the more. The entire Church with the exception of its Synod is coming to the support of and rallying around the people in Alaska. It’s the Synod, not just Herman, that is increasingly isolated. The resignations of Rentel and Perry just prove it all the more. I wish that Garklavs backed up his great letter with a resignation on his part – it would have put an exclamation mark on what he said that no one would have misunderstood and put the Chancery into deserved turmoil and maybe caused a lot more to come to a head.
What should be done is people should be talking about revamping everything for when the war is over purging ourselves of these elements. We should be reviewing the statutes and seeing where they can be corrected so that the next time we face such intractable evil in our governance that we have something with teeth in which to handle it. Maybe we should just start on the statutes from the beginning. When we rid ourselves of Nikolai, we need to put the best practices in, again, with teeth. Those that have stolen from our Church should, at the minimum, have that amount reported to the IRS as income if people are loathe to send criminals to the jail they deserve to be in. Or we should make sure we recover what was “misappropriated” to the point of going after inheritances they leave. Death should not mark an end to criminal accountability. We need to carefully define and adhere to the bishop selection process. No more of this auxiliary garbage who is then shoved down the throats of the faithful. That garbage MUST, in no uncertain terms, CEASE. Bishops should be known before they are presented to the Synod so that they do not, behind our backs as they have, chose lackeys who will roll over and submit, not to the will of God, but to the will of the oldest and corruptest of the bishops. We need to pare down the central administration to suit the organization. You don’t need one person in Syosset for every 900 faithful.
A word on the investigation. This investigation up in Alaska is the equivalent of Hierarchical snake oil. Look, they sent up Tikhon to investigate. This is the same guy who has a priest in his diocese playing power games with the Eucharist and what does he do? When a person is denyed the sacrament Tikhon just gives it to the person himself. The priest who’s sacrileging the sacrament and putting his priesthood into peril has nothing to worry about, he even lied when he claimed he had Tikhon’s blessing to play these games! And Tikhon does nothing. This is the kind of hard line and desire to correct ills that is going to do wonders for Alaska. Tikhon is like a rhino. Fierce looking animals, but put your hand in their mouths and they can’t gum you to death. It might sound good sending him up there, but there’s no bite. I have no idea how they can even send him up there when we’re all waiting for his ecclesiology of the internet to be published. The most anticipated Orthodox work since the councils. Tikhon’s great ability to rectify situations resulted in JOB having to prostrate in apology to Nikolai for something that wound up being none of JOB’s doing. I guess that fact finding isn’t in the crisis resolution process of Tikhon. So, we can pretty much count on Tikhon to bend yet again to Nikolai’s ungodly ways and come out in his favor.
#51
Anonymous
on
2008-04-02 11:13
They're not cowards. They are cowards in the Godly sense, but not in their own worlds. They, in their twisted minds and immoral realities think they are doing the right thing. When are people going to understand that this isn't a matter of backbone on the part of the Synod! This is a matter of criminality and embarrasment the likes of which they are willing to go through the highest of shame in order to hide. Normal people, when confronted with the amount of pressure and the revealing of their true hearts, will do the right thing, for themselves, for their families, for their companies, whatever. Normal people who have merely shame and embarrasment to face, take it like men, take responsibility, and leave the scene. Even Eliot Spitzer, who was the height of arrogance. A man who pleasured in the destruction of men and the company of young prostitutes saw that his time had come and walked away. Our Synod cannot live up to the standard of Spitzer. That's a serious indictment as to the character of these guys.
But what we have here are not normal people. They have control over information, they have control over people who might talk if they no longer have that control, and they have control over each other. The result of that control is that no one is in danger of going to the clink, up the river, to the big house, you name it.
Get off the idea that these are merely weak men unable to deal with a bad situation. These men know very well what they are doing and its completely in their self interest.
They are not going to get a backbone. They HAVE a backbone and that backbone has given them tremendous strength to endure a lot of things said about them in order to avoid meeting Bubba in the prison yard.
But what we have here are not normal people. They have control over information, they have control over people who might talk if they no longer have that control, and they have control over each other. The result of that control is that no one is in danger of going to the clink, up the river, to the big house, you name it.
Get off the idea that these are merely weak men unable to deal with a bad situation. These men know very well what they are doing and its completely in their self interest.
They are not going to get a backbone. They HAVE a backbone and that backbone has given them tremendous strength to endure a lot of things said about them in order to avoid meeting Bubba in the prison yard.
#52
Anonymous
on
2008-04-02 11:22
AND stop giving money to their diocese and make sure that every of your fellow parishioners know the situation as it is. Nothing more they dislike and grit their teeth about is when they are showing for the frauds they are to more people.
#53
Anonymous
on
2008-04-02 11:24
"One of the undercurrents of this virtual "civil war" in the OCA has been the diminished role of St. Vladimir's in the intellectual and spiritual life of the Church as it has been viewed with ever increasing suspicion and distrust by the "fundamentalist" element that holds such sway in the hierarchy and elsewhere"
Very true. One of the Antiochian bishops is refusing to send any of his seminarians to St. Vlad's anymore because...biblical studies taught at St. Vlad's includes the historical-critical method. So I do wish people here would stop thinking that the grass is greener with the Antiochians (or anyone else for that matter).
We should also note that St. Vlad's has this past year had a complete administrative overhaul. I doubt members of the old administration would have even entertained the notion of doing what St. Vlad's just did. But Fr. Chad seems to be a reasonable and caring man who has the courage to put his brand-new position as CEO on the line for doing what is right.
Very true. One of the Antiochian bishops is refusing to send any of his seminarians to St. Vlad's anymore because...biblical studies taught at St. Vlad's includes the historical-critical method. So I do wish people here would stop thinking that the grass is greener with the Antiochians (or anyone else for that matter).
We should also note that St. Vlad's has this past year had a complete administrative overhaul. I doubt members of the old administration would have even entertained the notion of doing what St. Vlad's just did. But Fr. Chad seems to be a reasonable and caring man who has the courage to put his brand-new position as CEO on the line for doing what is right.
#54
Anonymous
on
2008-04-02 11:37
A one-on-one (or 2-1) interview is at a minimum time consuming. This is assuming that the travel issues of the Alaskan's will allow many to attend.
Maybe some of the returning teams from the Ititarod could have some passengers on the sleds?
In a larger, and more ominous sense the isolation of the 'interviewees' is not good. There is the question of power of two Bishops over one priest; as well as the possibility for being coerced into passivity "Well, yes, I do have my own faults ... yes I do understand Christ's message of forgiveness.."
{This was the 'party line' as Roman Catholic Bishops swept abused members under their rugs}
Strength in complaining numbers is not a plus for the OCA -apparachicks at any time. The legitimate complaints are greater than the sum of it's parts when voiced in unison. Two-on-one meetings water things down.
A seminar/ council (gasp!) setting would be time and discussion efficient. But, but! What about confidentiality? Wouldn't the priests feel more open to express themselves in private? Considering the skill of Alsakan fishermen (and fishers OF men) they will recognize that Red Herring right away.
Maybe some of the returning teams from the Ititarod could have some passengers on the sleds?
In a larger, and more ominous sense the isolation of the 'interviewees' is not good. There is the question of power of two Bishops over one priest; as well as the possibility for being coerced into passivity "Well, yes, I do have my own faults ... yes I do understand Christ's message of forgiveness.."
{This was the 'party line' as Roman Catholic Bishops swept abused members under their rugs}
Strength in complaining numbers is not a plus for the OCA -apparachicks at any time. The legitimate complaints are greater than the sum of it's parts when voiced in unison. Two-on-one meetings water things down.
A seminar/ council (gasp!) setting would be time and discussion efficient. But, but! What about confidentiality? Wouldn't the priests feel more open to express themselves in private? Considering the skill of Alsakan fishermen (and fishers OF men) they will recognize that Red Herring right away.
#55
Jim Murray
on
2008-04-02 11:48
I don't know if Fr. Alex would feel comfortable making a public statement. He is an adviser to the leaders, not a leader himself. He may think it be out of turn.
Did he resign because he is fed up with bishops who agreed with BN interpretation of the canons instead of his own? I think it is highly likely. Why continue to advise people who just do the opposite of what you say? But since we don't have much information, it is impossible to say.
People who know Fr. Alex know him to be both strict and pastoral. Sure, he believes in the authority of bishops, but so do the canons. I believe he also firmly believes that this authority must be exercised properly, and that the highest responsibility is for the integrity, purity, and faith of the Church.
I'm not sure who Syosset will get to replace him, or if they even will. The bishops seem to be more than happy to follow their own private interpretations of the canons.
(editor's note: According to sources, Fr. Rentel and Mr Perry attempted to present a 10 page report to the Synod on the canonical questions raised by Bishop Nikoai. The Metropolitan, like the report of Fr. Garklavs, would not allow it to be presented. What is the point of "advising" if the advisee refuses to even read your counsel?)
Did he resign because he is fed up with bishops who agreed with BN interpretation of the canons instead of his own? I think it is highly likely. Why continue to advise people who just do the opposite of what you say? But since we don't have much information, it is impossible to say.
People who know Fr. Alex know him to be both strict and pastoral. Sure, he believes in the authority of bishops, but so do the canons. I believe he also firmly believes that this authority must be exercised properly, and that the highest responsibility is for the integrity, purity, and faith of the Church.
I'm not sure who Syosset will get to replace him, or if they even will. The bishops seem to be more than happy to follow their own private interpretations of the canons.
(editor's note: According to sources, Fr. Rentel and Mr Perry attempted to present a 10 page report to the Synod on the canonical questions raised by Bishop Nikoai. The Metropolitan, like the report of Fr. Garklavs, would not allow it to be presented. What is the point of "advising" if the advisee refuses to even read your counsel?)
#56
Anonymous
on
2008-04-02 12:04
This is why under great pressure, OCA bishops just retire with a nice, fat pension. They can abuse and steal from the faithful and then just retire with a nice, fat pension!
#57
Anonymous
on
2008-04-02 13:42
Those who prefer to view canons as laws that must be strictly adhered to and believe it was uncanonical to put nikolai on leave of absence have failed to note that laws are not set in stone and are often amended, struck down, or thrown out when they no longer make sense enforce.
My personal view is that it's A)a perversion of the canons to think of them in such a fashion as we should hold the church up to a higher standard then our incredibly corruptable government and B)if ever there was a case to modify these canons that some prefer to view as laws, this would be it.
My personal view is that it's A)a perversion of the canons to think of them in such a fashion as we should hold the church up to a higher standard then our incredibly corruptable government and B)if ever there was a case to modify these canons that some prefer to view as laws, this would be it.
#58
Anonymous
on
2008-04-02 13:44
Fr. Garklavs's statement "I do not want to say anything I will regret," may answer the question "Why didn't he resign?" Decent man that he is, I think he wanted to get back to Syosset and get a read on the situation before making any final decisions. I do not know what he will decide; anyone in that position is in a deeply difficult situation.
#59
Edmund Unneland
on
2008-04-02 14:03
Glory to IC XC!
Mr. Robert Wachter makes some good points. But, the AAC may come too late, regardless of its agenda. Can the OCA endure the aftermath of the regularly scheduled Synod meeting in May? ("Crisis? What crisis?")
The results of the May Synod meeting may well determine the fate of this jurisdiction. And given the track record of the Synod...
O Lord, Your will be done. Into Your hands I commit my spirit.
in XC,
Rev. Bartholomew Wojcik
St. Nicholas Mission Church
Pella, IA
Mr. Robert Wachter makes some good points. But, the AAC may come too late, regardless of its agenda. Can the OCA endure the aftermath of the regularly scheduled Synod meeting in May? ("Crisis? What crisis?")
The results of the May Synod meeting may well determine the fate of this jurisdiction. And given the track record of the Synod...
O Lord, Your will be done. Into Your hands I commit my spirit.
in XC,
Rev. Bartholomew Wojcik
St. Nicholas Mission Church
Pella, IA
#60
Rev. Bartholomew Wojcik
on
2008-04-02 14:32
The SOB is not a secret society with gag rules regarding disclosure of the secret handshake. They are supposed to represent all of us. Therefore, it is a must that we hear from Fr. Rentel whom we have been supporting. From what you say, it would appear that Fr. Rentel is just the latest in a long line of saps like me who thought they were doing some good, only to find out they were being used for "curb appeal."
#61
Anon.
on
2008-04-02 14:38
It is so very reassuring to know that, although the faculty at the premier Orthodox seminary in the United States may lack either knowledge or wisdom, there are always anonymous internet warriors willing to stand in the breach to courageously offer both. Where would we be without you, O bold font of wisdom?
Seriously, anonymous, do you really think you are dispensing either enlightenment or persuasion?
Seriously, anonymous, do you really think you are dispensing either enlightenment or persuasion?
#62
Scott Walker
on
2008-04-02 14:48
I would like to express my most sincere gratitude to Faculty of St Vladimir's Seminary for their courageous action by expressing publicly their support for honesty and integrity in dealing with the many trying and evil forces that are surrounding our church and its leaders.
It means so much to those of whose final strands of hope are rapidly diminishing by the hour.
I can’t tell you how much it means to me personally to know that there are people who understand and care about what we are experiencing here in Alaska and throughout the OCA.
I just came from shopping at a local store and friend of mine from a rural village says their Church Council is meeting tomorrow to decide the fate of their parish - what jurisdiction it should go under; Mother Russia or another episcopate if the Synod doesn’t act properly and soon.
Dear people, friends, we are exhausted; we can’t and won’t take anymore of Nikolai and his deeds...
No amount of news media blitz by him or his starry eyed devotees will change the facts... his reign is over, dead...
Either he be removed from our Diocese or we will leave it. Priests are already resigning, nearly every remaining priest has stated publicly or privately that they will resign if Nikolai remains - what more do they need to hear?
Everyone I have talked to since the Synod backed down has said that was the last straw... yes we are willing to hear +Nathaniel and +Tikhon... but the action that follows must be swift and clean.... no more faltering or double standards!
It means so much to those of whose final strands of hope are rapidly diminishing by the hour.
I can’t tell you how much it means to me personally to know that there are people who understand and care about what we are experiencing here in Alaska and throughout the OCA.
I just came from shopping at a local store and friend of mine from a rural village says their Church Council is meeting tomorrow to decide the fate of their parish - what jurisdiction it should go under; Mother Russia or another episcopate if the Synod doesn’t act properly and soon.
Dear people, friends, we are exhausted; we can’t and won’t take anymore of Nikolai and his deeds...
No amount of news media blitz by him or his starry eyed devotees will change the facts... his reign is over, dead...
Either he be removed from our Diocese or we will leave it. Priests are already resigning, nearly every remaining priest has stated publicly or privately that they will resign if Nikolai remains - what more do they need to hear?
Everyone I have talked to since the Synod backed down has said that was the last straw... yes we are willing to hear +Nathaniel and +Tikhon... but the action that follows must be swift and clean.... no more faltering or double standards!
#63
Ted Panamarioff - Kodiak Alaska
on
2008-04-02 16:15
"The people of Russia were somehow able to expel the Russian Metropolitan who signed the accord of Florence. He spent the rest of his life in Rome kissing the popes(sic) hand."
Remember since the time of Constantine I, it was most often "laymen" who had the "last" word with many of the bishops. It was the emperors and empresses, the sultans,and even today the governments in the eastern Mediterranean who have a say, even the final say, on who are the "ruling" bishops in their lands, regardless what +BN says.
Remember since the time of Constantine I, it was most often "laymen" who had the "last" word with many of the bishops. It was the emperors and empresses, the sultans,and even today the governments in the eastern Mediterranean who have a say, even the final say, on who are the "ruling" bishops in their lands, regardless what +BN says.
#64
William Kosar
on
2008-04-02 17:43
Bravo to St. Vladimir's seminary and bravo to the OCA metropolitan council for their courage to draft the statement that they did in front of Metropolitan Herman (now that could not have been pleasant). I have also heard that Metr. Herman was asked to retire at their last session and that a motion was put forward but was tabled in order to let him think it over.
I understand that there was a lot of discussion about whether the crisis in leadership is with Metropolitan Herman or with the Holy Synod. Frankly the crisis is with all of the bishops.
At first I thought the idea of Paul Meyendorff's to have the bishops resign was absurd and now it makes perfect sense. If this is the best that we can do in America then maybe it truly is fine to find just a few good men to lead the church. This crisis has got to end.
Quite frankly, the hell with what other jurisdictions may say and if Nikolai wants to protest to Istanbul or Moscow, let him. This should be our church and we have let an unbelievable bunch of idiots run it almost completely into the ground.
Look at that, the trains actually moving again.
I understand that there was a lot of discussion about whether the crisis in leadership is with Metropolitan Herman or with the Holy Synod. Frankly the crisis is with all of the bishops.
At first I thought the idea of Paul Meyendorff's to have the bishops resign was absurd and now it makes perfect sense. If this is the best that we can do in America then maybe it truly is fine to find just a few good men to lead the church. This crisis has got to end.
Quite frankly, the hell with what other jurisdictions may say and if Nikolai wants to protest to Istanbul or Moscow, let him. This should be our church and we have let an unbelievable bunch of idiots run it almost completely into the ground.
Look at that, the trains actually moving again.
#65
Anon.
on
2008-04-02 17:45
St. Vladimir's "impales" St. Tikhon's on the basketball court, February 23, 2008. Final score: 82-72. http://www.svots.edu/news-and-events/recent-news-and-events/seminarians-face-off-on-the-basketball-court/
#66
The St. Vlad's Impalers
on
2008-04-02 17:54
"We have, basically the Synod vs. the faithful."
Really? Not the whole Synod agreed with reinstating BN. Nor did key members of the Syosset staff (cf. Fr. Rentel). Does SVS count as "faithful"? Since they are against "the Synod" I guess you think so. Does this, then, also make +Job simply a member of the "faithful"?
Read Mark's report of what happened last Thursday, the Synod was divided, and eventually, by majority, called the actions of MH uncanonical. That must have been a big blow to his pride. I wonder how he felt when he looked around and saw only a few bishops supporting him, the same ones who have asked him for his resignation no less? SVS has spoken out against the Synod, putting their own existence as a stavropegial institution on the line. Popular and high-ranking priests, like Fr. Garklav's and Fr. Oleksa, have put their own ordinations on the line in order to speak out against the Synod. There is no way Syosset can sweep all this under the rug or make it go away. They will need to make a decision, depose many priests and close their flagship Seminary, or deal justly with BN. The time is upon them for them to decide, once and for all, whether or not they will do the right thing.
Really? Not the whole Synod agreed with reinstating BN. Nor did key members of the Syosset staff (cf. Fr. Rentel). Does SVS count as "faithful"? Since they are against "the Synod" I guess you think so. Does this, then, also make +Job simply a member of the "faithful"?
Read Mark's report of what happened last Thursday, the Synod was divided, and eventually, by majority, called the actions of MH uncanonical. That must have been a big blow to his pride. I wonder how he felt when he looked around and saw only a few bishops supporting him, the same ones who have asked him for his resignation no less? SVS has spoken out against the Synod, putting their own existence as a stavropegial institution on the line. Popular and high-ranking priests, like Fr. Garklav's and Fr. Oleksa, have put their own ordinations on the line in order to speak out against the Synod. There is no way Syosset can sweep all this under the rug or make it go away. They will need to make a decision, depose many priests and close their flagship Seminary, or deal justly with BN. The time is upon them for them to decide, once and for all, whether or not they will do the right thing.
#67
Anonymous
on
2008-04-02 18:00
I'm failing to make lemonade out of the recent lemons provided by the SOB decision. Any spiritual fathers out there willing to assist?
One would hope that the recent synodal meeting was held with the overall thought of "What would Jesus Do?"
Was reinstating +Nikolai an example of turning the other cheek? Sure would appreciate some guidance here.
Some other thoughts:
Surley not all of the 41 priests were untruthful and real or imagined, they obviously feel betrayed by the "Icon of Christ" serving them. How can the Bishop take communion? He has obviously injured his brothers in Christ and when has he asked them to forgive him?
Did Christ ever hurt anyone (except for demons and money changers. And even to them he showed mercy.) Isn't failing to show mercy the heart of the issue with Bishop Nikolai's management style?
Where is +Nikolai's mercy? One of his first acts after restoration is to ignored the vote for MC Rep! Surely he had to know he was wounding Fr. Michael.
Isn't he miscommunicating again...this time he is miscommunicating his faith in 41 of his own priests. What father ignores the pleas of his children? And worse, fails to even attempt to console them...but aggrevates them instead.
Please investigating Bishop's...concider these thoughts.
Dazed and Confused in Ohio
One would hope that the recent synodal meeting was held with the overall thought of "What would Jesus Do?"
Was reinstating +Nikolai an example of turning the other cheek? Sure would appreciate some guidance here.
Some other thoughts:
Surley not all of the 41 priests were untruthful and real or imagined, they obviously feel betrayed by the "Icon of Christ" serving them. How can the Bishop take communion? He has obviously injured his brothers in Christ and when has he asked them to forgive him?
Did Christ ever hurt anyone (except for demons and money changers. And even to them he showed mercy.) Isn't failing to show mercy the heart of the issue with Bishop Nikolai's management style?
Where is +Nikolai's mercy? One of his first acts after restoration is to ignored the vote for MC Rep! Surely he had to know he was wounding Fr. Michael.
Isn't he miscommunicating again...this time he is miscommunicating his faith in 41 of his own priests. What father ignores the pleas of his children? And worse, fails to even attempt to console them...but aggrevates them instead.
Please investigating Bishop's...concider these thoughts.
Dazed and Confused in Ohio
#68
Jodie
on
2008-04-02 18:13
"What is the point of "advising" if the advisee refuses to even read your counsel?)"
Mark, I think that's what I was saying when I said "Why continue to advise people who just do the opposite of what you say? "
Was I unclear?
Anyone who has studied canon law (whether in one of Fr. Rentel's classes or not) knows that there is, indeed, a canon law "Tradition". Medieval commentaries and interpretations of the canons, plus their history on interpretation. A canon lawyer must be cognizant of all of these things when considering a canonical question. Right or not, this is how Orthodox canon law has been practiced for centuries. One does not, actually, just consider the plain text of the canon and then extrapolate from there. Yet, for some reason, many of our current bishops, who do not have any canonical training (can they fluently read Byzantine Greek? no? Italian? no? then they are incapable of making a canonical study. Fr. Rentel, by the way, knows both fluently) insist on making their own interpretation of the canons, which violate both their traditional interpretation as well as their letter and spirit. Their cavalier attitude towards canons shares more with the Protestant idea of Sola Scriptura than anything remotely Orthodox. It's absurd. Since when did being Orthodox mean believing in Sola Canona - that everyone has the right to their own private interpretation of the canons? It doesn't, not even if you're the bishop of some backwater diocese of a barely recognized Orthodox jurisdiction. What presumption and pride.
You've caused me to rant again.
In any case, yes, it is clear that Fr. Rentel's task had become pointless, there is no use in advising those who throw your expertise and training under the feet of their own self-centered ignorance and pride.
Mark, I think that's what I was saying when I said "Why continue to advise people who just do the opposite of what you say? "
Was I unclear?
Anyone who has studied canon law (whether in one of Fr. Rentel's classes or not) knows that there is, indeed, a canon law "Tradition". Medieval commentaries and interpretations of the canons, plus their history on interpretation. A canon lawyer must be cognizant of all of these things when considering a canonical question. Right or not, this is how Orthodox canon law has been practiced for centuries. One does not, actually, just consider the plain text of the canon and then extrapolate from there. Yet, for some reason, many of our current bishops, who do not have any canonical training (can they fluently read Byzantine Greek? no? Italian? no? then they are incapable of making a canonical study. Fr. Rentel, by the way, knows both fluently) insist on making their own interpretation of the canons, which violate both their traditional interpretation as well as their letter and spirit. Their cavalier attitude towards canons shares more with the Protestant idea of Sola Scriptura than anything remotely Orthodox. It's absurd. Since when did being Orthodox mean believing in Sola Canona - that everyone has the right to their own private interpretation of the canons? It doesn't, not even if you're the bishop of some backwater diocese of a barely recognized Orthodox jurisdiction. What presumption and pride.
You've caused me to rant again.
In any case, yes, it is clear that Fr. Rentel's task had become pointless, there is no use in advising those who throw your expertise and training under the feet of their own self-centered ignorance and pride.
#69
Anonymous
on
2008-04-02 18:23
Ted,
You can't speak for anyone except yourself. Pride can be destroyed. Please don't need to speak on behalf of the people in the diocese. Speak on your own behalf.
Forgive me and pray for me. With Love.
You can't speak for anyone except yourself. Pride can be destroyed. Please don't need to speak on behalf of the people in the diocese. Speak on your own behalf.
Forgive me and pray for me. With Love.
#70
Anonymous
on
2008-04-02 18:33
I'm confused. Fr. Rentel is not a member of the Synod, so I don't understand why you think he "represents us". Rather, he was hired by the Synod to give them advice. But he doesn't "represent" anyone except himself. He is not a bishop, he was not voted in as a bishop, he is not a member of the MC. He was, in fact, a simple employee, a staff member. How can he "represent" anyone if no one, at any time, "voted" for him?
#71
Anonymous
on
2008-04-02 18:50
The Metropolitan, like the report of Fr. Garklavs, would not allow it to be presented.
This just boggles the mind. What kind of a "leader" does not allow reports to be presented or distributed? This is not what a leader does. This is what a dictatorial despot does. "I'm in control here. You will do nothing unless I say so. Never mind that I sent you to Alaska to do my bidding. Truth? Truth is irrelevant, unless it is my truth. People are hurting? Who cares? I'm in charge, here! The diocese is disintegrating? Well, I still have my miter - nothing else matters."
I've about had all of the OCA I can stomach.
This just boggles the mind. What kind of a "leader" does not allow reports to be presented or distributed? This is not what a leader does. This is what a dictatorial despot does. "I'm in control here. You will do nothing unless I say so. Never mind that I sent you to Alaska to do my bidding. Truth? Truth is irrelevant, unless it is my truth. People are hurting? Who cares? I'm in charge, here! The diocese is disintegrating? Well, I still have my miter - nothing else matters."
I've about had all of the OCA I can stomach.
#72
Name withheld
on
2008-04-02 21:07
Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't that a form of Simony -- to hold the antimens "hostage" for payment of money? I hope a parish takes him up on his bold threat. That way when he says "when i get your money, you get the sacrament back", he can join his buddy Nikolai in the unemployment line.
#73
Anonymous
on
2008-04-02 22:48
...and don't forget Fr. Rentel's inside knowledge of the so-called holy synod's proceedings. Again, this synod stinks of incompetence and/or corruption. Probably a mix of both.
#74
Anonymous
on
2008-04-02 22:52
Hey CAPS guy, you forgot to tell us to GO START YOUR OWN CHURCH!
#75
Anonymous
on
2008-04-02 22:59
The so-called historical-critical method is passe in biblical studies; Protesant and RC scholars have moved on to various literary methods like reader-response criticism, canonical readings and some are even trying to recover what is helpful in patristic readings. This is because the h-c method (a child of the German Enlightenment, remember) as it filtered down to the seminaries just led the church into a barren wasteland, especially in regard to its influence on homiletics and pastoral theology.
If the h-c method is what is being taught at St Vlad's, I would be concerned too; one doesn't have to be a "fundamentalist" Orthodox (goodness, are there really such creatures?!) to share that concern. Perhaps the OCA bishops who share reservations about SVS along with the Antiochian bishop mentioned actually have the well-being of the future church at heart? (Fwiw, the whole fundamentalist-liberal battle is also passe - we are in a post-fundamentalist & post-liberal world now, which makes for some strange alliances in anti-abortion marches and other "culture-war" pursuits. So, for goodness' sake, don't import that outdated scheme into Orthodoxy now!)
Back to teh Bible -Orthodoxy would be better to mine the resources in its own tradition (maybe start with Florovsky as a guide, seeing as how he was at least aware of the tensions between tradition and modernity even if his solutions aren't always acceptable...I'm sure there are others doing good work in this field whom I haven't caught up with recently too) rather than apeing the redundant hermeneutics of a decadent and unbelieving Protestantism. That's one particular dead-end path you should save yourselves the time of going down.
From a divinity school educated (honours degree and post-grad studies in the British system), ex-Orthodox, now Protestant. Dismiss me as an apostate if you will, but hear me out on this, at least.
If the h-c method is what is being taught at St Vlad's, I would be concerned too; one doesn't have to be a "fundamentalist" Orthodox (goodness, are there really such creatures?!) to share that concern. Perhaps the OCA bishops who share reservations about SVS along with the Antiochian bishop mentioned actually have the well-being of the future church at heart? (Fwiw, the whole fundamentalist-liberal battle is also passe - we are in a post-fundamentalist & post-liberal world now, which makes for some strange alliances in anti-abortion marches and other "culture-war" pursuits. So, for goodness' sake, don't import that outdated scheme into Orthodoxy now!)
Back to teh Bible -Orthodoxy would be better to mine the resources in its own tradition (maybe start with Florovsky as a guide, seeing as how he was at least aware of the tensions between tradition and modernity even if his solutions aren't always acceptable...I'm sure there are others doing good work in this field whom I haven't caught up with recently too) rather than apeing the redundant hermeneutics of a decadent and unbelieving Protestantism. That's one particular dead-end path you should save yourselves the time of going down.
From a divinity school educated (honours degree and post-grad studies in the British system), ex-Orthodox, now Protestant. Dismiss me as an apostate if you will, but hear me out on this, at least.
#76
Anthony
on
2008-04-02 23:12
Hmmm . . . the Alaskan Orthodox Church Outside of Orthodox Church in America . . . we keep saying we want a "non-ethnic" Orthodox Church; if Orthodoxy in the U.S. first took root in Alaska, AOCOOC might actually be the first AMERICAN Orthodox Church.
#77
Anonymous
on
2008-04-02 23:20
I wasnt speaking for you or the diocese... please take the time to read what I wrote..
I do not, nor do I wish to speak for the D of A... not now... not ever..
I have had the opportunity to speak to a great many people from several parishes - recently... they're all unanimous... in their feelings... but I do not infer that every person everywhere is likeminded... However, I dont doubt for a second that great majority of all those who I am aware of, feel the same way.
So... If you believe that I should publicly state that I dont include you or your interests in my post.. so be it... I dont, nor did I wish to include you.. whoever you are...
I do not, nor do I wish to speak for the D of A... not now... not ever..
I have had the opportunity to speak to a great many people from several parishes - recently... they're all unanimous... in their feelings... but I do not infer that every person everywhere is likeminded... However, I dont doubt for a second that great majority of all those who I am aware of, feel the same way.
So... If you believe that I should publicly state that I dont include you or your interests in my post.. so be it... I dont, nor did I wish to include you.. whoever you are...
#78
Ted Panamarioff - Kodiak Alaska
on
2008-04-03 00:04
Uhh, yeah, I agree that the historical-critical has long past its heyday. But in a graduate course of biblical studies one should still become familiar with its major tenants, its method, and its findings. There was/is in fact some good to the method, and biblical studies today have grown because of it. H-C was just one example of many. This bishop was also concerned that biblical studies at St. Vlad's also asks their students to be familiar with the Documentary Source Hypothesis and the source theory of the Gospels. Sure, both of those are also outdated, but teaching biblical studies without bringing them up is just silly. Engagement with these ideas are still critical. I know that Dr. Barnet leans more towards literary criticism in his instruction, the others I don't know. But this bishop would much rather send his students to a seminary which completely ignores these issues as if they never happened and, indeed, teaches a Protestant Fundamentalist approach to the Bible. Yes, this approach is beyond passe, which is why I worry about new seminarians being taught it. They will be woefully unprepared for the issues they will face in the world today.
Also, I believe we are moving beyond Florovsky and his neo-patristic synthesis. Florovsky was a Modern, and while he made many good points, his framework is becoming increasingly irrelevant. Even so, awareness of, and engagement with, this past scholarship is important. But I think the post/pre-modern approach being formulated by Fr. John Behr is better suited to the context of the contemporary issues you brought up than Florovsky.
Also, I believe we are moving beyond Florovsky and his neo-patristic synthesis. Florovsky was a Modern, and while he made many good points, his framework is becoming increasingly irrelevant. Even so, awareness of, and engagement with, this past scholarship is important. But I think the post/pre-modern approach being formulated by Fr. John Behr is better suited to the context of the contemporary issues you brought up than Florovsky.
#79
Anonymous
on
2008-04-03 07:10
Well this is rich--a lecture from an "ex-Orthodox, now Protestant" poster defending "fundamentalist" Orthodoxy! It confirms my suspicion that all fundamentalists essentially share the same bed whether Protestant, Catholic, Orthodox or Islamic. Truly the New Age has arrived, where lions and tigers lie down with lions and tigers.
Fundamentalist Orthodoxy is a term first used by me on this site. It is an admittedly convenient, and probably inadequate, way to describe a mindset that is legalistic, purist and intolerant, as well as frequently anti-intellectual (i.e. irrational), even when its proponents sport academic credentials. It is responsible for much pain and suffering in this world and is condemned in the Gospels as being Pharisaic, since above all else it lacks love.
That said, I do not judge, let alone condemn, the "pious" opinions or practices of others as long as love and tolerance are extended to others not so inclined. In this season the Great Fast is a perfect example. Who is to judge, other than God, the individual observance and practice of this discipline?
KRT
Fundamentalist Orthodoxy is a term first used by me on this site. It is an admittedly convenient, and probably inadequate, way to describe a mindset that is legalistic, purist and intolerant, as well as frequently anti-intellectual (i.e. irrational), even when its proponents sport academic credentials. It is responsible for much pain and suffering in this world and is condemned in the Gospels as being Pharisaic, since above all else it lacks love.
That said, I do not judge, let alone condemn, the "pious" opinions or practices of others as long as love and tolerance are extended to others not so inclined. In this season the Great Fast is a perfect example. Who is to judge, other than God, the individual observance and practice of this discipline?
KRT
#80
Kenneth R. Tobin
on
2008-04-03 07:32
Fr. Alexander Rentel was introduced to the Holy Synod by Metropolitan Herman and Protopresbyter Rodion S. Kondratick to give canonical advice on the case of the deposed Deacon Lev alias Puhalo. He has always made it plain that he is not a credentialed canonist and that his specialty is liturgics. "The Synod" had no part in "hiring" or engaging him as a canonical advisor, the Synod was just confronted with him having been chosen by "others." He is a good and intelligent Priest. I assume he reached a point where he felt any of his efforts might end up not being productive, for various reasons.
#81
Bishop Tikhon
on
2008-04-03 09:15
Josephine - your point 2: svots.edu, IOCC.org and OCMC.org. Their financials are available online.
#82
Michael Strelka
on
2008-04-03 11:02
Nonsense. The Antiochians stopped sending seminarians to St. Vlad's because they were not happy with the formation of their priests. St. Tikhon's is not perfect, but both the OCA and the Antiochians believe that it produces good parish priests. With Fr. Chad running things, I'm sure this will change.
Realize, please, that in a parish, most people don't care about the historical-critical method or any other trends in scholarship.
There are scholars at St. Tikhon's at St. Vlad's; there are also zeroes. Most people fall in between. The scholars will be scholars wherever they study. The seminaries should be working together, not pitted against each other. And they are beginning to--the OISM meetings give us a chance to realize that all of these categories and distinctions are nonsense if we--the seminarians and faculty--want them to be.
Realize, please, that in a parish, most people don't care about the historical-critical method or any other trends in scholarship.
There are scholars at St. Tikhon's at St. Vlad's; there are also zeroes. Most people fall in between. The scholars will be scholars wherever they study. The seminaries should be working together, not pitted against each other. And they are beginning to--the OISM meetings give us a chance to realize that all of these categories and distinctions are nonsense if we--the seminarians and faculty--want them to be.
#83
anon, like everyone else here.
on
2008-04-03 13:47
Dear the St. Vlad's Impalers,
I am very sorry but I am terribly disturbed your post.
I do not understand your purpose at all.
Have you ever thought what people think about your post and the school you belongs to?
Seminarians must co-operate together for Christ, his body, and his people.
Any kind of insult and provocation to our sister seminaries are inappropriate, rather lose credit of the name of St Vlad's.
....
(Editor's note: I sincerely hope we have not reached the point where a friendly inter-school basketball game, and the joshing that must follow, produces hurt feelings. That the schools are finally, finally, doing things together, if only basketball in this this instance, is a step forward that should be welcomed by all, especially in difficult times. And I love the name of the team. Wicked. What name did St. Tikhon's use? )
I am very sorry but I am terribly disturbed your post.
I do not understand your purpose at all.
Have you ever thought what people think about your post and the school you belongs to?
Seminarians must co-operate together for Christ, his body, and his people.
Any kind of insult and provocation to our sister seminaries are inappropriate, rather lose credit of the name of St Vlad's.
....
(Editor's note: I sincerely hope we have not reached the point where a friendly inter-school basketball game, and the joshing that must follow, produces hurt feelings. That the schools are finally, finally, doing things together, if only basketball in this this instance, is a step forward that should be welcomed by all, especially in difficult times. And I love the name of the team. Wicked. What name did St. Tikhon's use? )
#84
A Recent Graduate of SVS
on
2008-04-03 14:21
Wouldn't it be great now to have the "deposed deacon", now His Eminence Lazar, come forth to lead the OCA, after the house is swept clean of criminality and immorality at the highest levels? I believe His Grace would do a wonderful job!
#85
Rich
on
2008-04-03 15:34
To my dear, wonderful, loving and well-loved Orthodox brothers and sisters and all clergy,
I believe that if the Holy Synod of Bishops does not do what is right and neekful to protect the Orthodox Faith and Orthodox Faithful, they will come before the dread judgement seat of God bearing the burden of all the souls that will be lost due to their capricious and inept actions.
I believe that if +Nikolai has a true love of the Lord and the church he will step aside. He is a very intellegent man and surely realizes that if he stays it may well be a death knell for Orthodoxy in Alaska.
In the meantime, we Orthodox Faithful of Alaska must pray with all our hearts, believing, that God is with us, and that no -man- is head of our church, only God Himself.
I believe that if the Holy Synod of Bishops does not do what is right and neekful to protect the Orthodox Faith and Orthodox Faithful, they will come before the dread judgement seat of God bearing the burden of all the souls that will be lost due to their capricious and inept actions.
I believe that if +Nikolai has a true love of the Lord and the church he will step aside. He is a very intellegent man and surely realizes that if he stays it may well be a death knell for Orthodoxy in Alaska.
In the meantime, we Orthodox Faithful of Alaska must pray with all our hearts, believing, that God is with us, and that no -man- is head of our church, only God Himself.
#86
Joanna
on
2008-04-03 17:25
Kindly refer to the disgraced Mr. Kondratick as the deposed Protopresbyter. Sauce for the deposed deacon is sauce for the deposed priest.
#87
Scott Walker
on
2008-04-03 18:04
I apologize for the late response.
Point 1: When parishioners fill out a pledge card and become members in their local parish, that triggers a head tax on the parish. The parish must send the head tax to the diocese, and the diocese forwards funds to the national entity. The diocese can withhold that amount from the national entity, the parish can withhold that amount from the diocese, or the individual can withhold funds from the parish. Most parishioners do not want to “punish” their parish by withholding funds, so they continue to donate anyway. Fortunately there is a middle way that allows people to continue to support the parish without supporting the national church: People can approach the priest or the parish council and say “I want to continue to support the parish but I do not want a dime of my donations to go to the national church – How do I do that?” And they will explain how to do it. The easiest way is with “earmarked” donations.
Point 2: Mr. Strelka has made several good suggestions. Now that St. Vladimir’s seems to have found its voice, I think that sending money to the seminary is a good alternative. Raphael House in San Francisco is another solid organization, though I do not know whether it publishes its financials. The rural parishes in Alaska are in great need of funding – their addresses can be found on the oca.org website if you do a clergy listing search by state. In addition, I know that Orthodox churches overseas are in need of funding. The Orthodox Church of Korea, for example, still relies on donations from overseas to meet its shoestring annual budget. The financials are prepared in three languages (Korean, Greek and English) and to my knowledge the Church in Korea has never had a financial scandal.
Point 3: I am willing to help draft resolutions and prepare the delegates, but I expect that only an official delegate may make a floor resolution. If any delegates need help, they should ask. I would suggest a series of resolutions: a resolution commending Protodeacon Eric Wheeler for exposing the fraud, a resolution commending Mark Stokoe for this site, a resolution commending the dozens of contributors to this site, a resolution commending Archbishop Job for speaking out publicly, a resolution thanking the former special commission that was wrongfully dissolved, a resolution requesting the members of the Synod to step down, a resolution supporting legal action against those who have breached their fiduciary obligations to the Church, a resolution to reduce the budget of the national church to the bare minimum until God raises up leaders who have the vision and the integrity to put the money to good use. Any delegate who intends to offer such a resolution should submit it as an agenda item lest the chair attempt to rule a motion out of order on technical grounds. If the chair rules a motion out of order a delegate should make a motion to overrule the chair. The motion to overrule the chair only requires a simple majority (See Roberts Rules of Order Online Section 21 http://www.rulesonline.com). If that motion is ruled out of order, a delegate should rise to a “point of order” to ask the chair for clarification on how to appeal the decision of the chair. If that does not work, a delegate can offer a motion to suspend the rules (Section 22). If none of this works and it becomes obvious that the chair refuses to follow any orderly rules for the meeting, that is the cue to cut the electricity to the chair’s microphone.
Point 4: I suspect that members of the SIC are aware of what is posted on this website, even if they do not read all of the messages directly. The question to pose to the SIC members is what type of report should the Church expect? After a year of extensive interviews and documentary review, I would expect a detailed report at least 100 pages long and with about 500 pages of supporting exhibits. A Church that waits three years for answers can reasonably expect that level of detail – at a minimum. The Church should not accept a short report that says “Lots of bad things happened in the past but the Church is now headed in the right direction and should move on.” It may take the SIC a long time to prepare a thorough report , but the committee is at a stage where it should be in a position to preview what it intends to say in the final report.
Point 5: Ultimately the proceedings will need to be brought in New York and will require a New York litigator. I am sure that there are many attorneys in the Church who would be willing to provide ideas and support from outside. In an ideal situation the lawyers on both sides would all be Orthodox and committed to follow the legal process with integrity. However, I expect that the Administration would rather hire mercenaries and waste another half million dollars of the Church’s money -- but that is just a hunch.
Point 1: When parishioners fill out a pledge card and become members in their local parish, that triggers a head tax on the parish. The parish must send the head tax to the diocese, and the diocese forwards funds to the national entity. The diocese can withhold that amount from the national entity, the parish can withhold that amount from the diocese, or the individual can withhold funds from the parish. Most parishioners do not want to “punish” their parish by withholding funds, so they continue to donate anyway. Fortunately there is a middle way that allows people to continue to support the parish without supporting the national church: People can approach the priest or the parish council and say “I want to continue to support the parish but I do not want a dime of my donations to go to the national church – How do I do that?” And they will explain how to do it. The easiest way is with “earmarked” donations.
Point 2: Mr. Strelka has made several good suggestions. Now that St. Vladimir’s seems to have found its voice, I think that sending money to the seminary is a good alternative. Raphael House in San Francisco is another solid organization, though I do not know whether it publishes its financials. The rural parishes in Alaska are in great need of funding – their addresses can be found on the oca.org website if you do a clergy listing search by state. In addition, I know that Orthodox churches overseas are in need of funding. The Orthodox Church of Korea, for example, still relies on donations from overseas to meet its shoestring annual budget. The financials are prepared in three languages (Korean, Greek and English) and to my knowledge the Church in Korea has never had a financial scandal.
Point 3: I am willing to help draft resolutions and prepare the delegates, but I expect that only an official delegate may make a floor resolution. If any delegates need help, they should ask. I would suggest a series of resolutions: a resolution commending Protodeacon Eric Wheeler for exposing the fraud, a resolution commending Mark Stokoe for this site, a resolution commending the dozens of contributors to this site, a resolution commending Archbishop Job for speaking out publicly, a resolution thanking the former special commission that was wrongfully dissolved, a resolution requesting the members of the Synod to step down, a resolution supporting legal action against those who have breached their fiduciary obligations to the Church, a resolution to reduce the budget of the national church to the bare minimum until God raises up leaders who have the vision and the integrity to put the money to good use. Any delegate who intends to offer such a resolution should submit it as an agenda item lest the chair attempt to rule a motion out of order on technical grounds. If the chair rules a motion out of order a delegate should make a motion to overrule the chair. The motion to overrule the chair only requires a simple majority (See Roberts Rules of Order Online Section 21 http://www.rulesonline.com). If that motion is ruled out of order, a delegate should rise to a “point of order” to ask the chair for clarification on how to appeal the decision of the chair. If that does not work, a delegate can offer a motion to suspend the rules (Section 22). If none of this works and it becomes obvious that the chair refuses to follow any orderly rules for the meeting, that is the cue to cut the electricity to the chair’s microphone.
Point 4: I suspect that members of the SIC are aware of what is posted on this website, even if they do not read all of the messages directly. The question to pose to the SIC members is what type of report should the Church expect? After a year of extensive interviews and documentary review, I would expect a detailed report at least 100 pages long and with about 500 pages of supporting exhibits. A Church that waits three years for answers can reasonably expect that level of detail – at a minimum. The Church should not accept a short report that says “Lots of bad things happened in the past but the Church is now headed in the right direction and should move on.” It may take the SIC a long time to prepare a thorough report , but the committee is at a stage where it should be in a position to preview what it intends to say in the final report.
Point 5: Ultimately the proceedings will need to be brought in New York and will require a New York litigator. I am sure that there are many attorneys in the Church who would be willing to provide ideas and support from outside. In an ideal situation the lawyers on both sides would all be Orthodox and committed to follow the legal process with integrity. However, I expect that the Administration would rather hire mercenaries and waste another half million dollars of the Church’s money -- but that is just a hunch.
#88
Robert Wachter
on
2008-04-03 22:50
Mr. Wachter is a true gem of an attorney! Every one of his suggestions is terrific and should be followed. In the fullness of time, he would make the ideal legal adviser/counsel/Canonical expert to the OCA.
KRT
(Editor's note: The position of counsel has been filled. See OCA.org for details. He has been, and remains, a wonderful and hellpful advisor, and we all owe him a our thanks.)
KRT
(Editor's note: The position of counsel has been filled. See OCA.org for details. He has been, and remains, a wonderful and hellpful advisor, and we all owe him a our thanks.)
#89
Kenneth R. Tobin
on
2008-04-04 05:13
My understanding is that Fr. Rentel has been involved in far more canonical cases than the one you mentioned. He drew a stipend from Syosset and was listed as one of their employees. Hence, he was a staff member.
Sure, he might not be a "credentialed canonist" but how many of those actually exist today, and how does one become one? I don't see any Orthodox seminary in the English speaking world rushing to offer a doctorate in Canon Law. Do we have others in America who have the training to read and work with the original sources in their original languages? Who are familiar with Byzantine history and Byzantine legal coding? I don't see a big line of people with those qualifications, much less anyone willing to do just part-time for the piddles that Syosset pays. Simply put, I don't see any member of the Synod who has a terminal degree from the Pontifical Oriental institute in Byzantine studies. OK, academics doesn't make one a good person, but what it does do is teach a person that they can't, in fact, know everything about everything, and that they should recognize what they don't know and ask for (and listen to) the advice of others who do know. Otherwise, one ends up looking incredibly foolish. So ok, he's not a "credentialed canonist" (though whatever would we say if he did in fact get his degree in canon law at a Catholic school?) but he is the best we've got, and it really isn't at all that bad.
Sure, he might not be a "credentialed canonist" but how many of those actually exist today, and how does one become one? I don't see any Orthodox seminary in the English speaking world rushing to offer a doctorate in Canon Law. Do we have others in America who have the training to read and work with the original sources in their original languages? Who are familiar with Byzantine history and Byzantine legal coding? I don't see a big line of people with those qualifications, much less anyone willing to do just part-time for the piddles that Syosset pays. Simply put, I don't see any member of the Synod who has a terminal degree from the Pontifical Oriental institute in Byzantine studies. OK, academics doesn't make one a good person, but what it does do is teach a person that they can't, in fact, know everything about everything, and that they should recognize what they don't know and ask for (and listen to) the advice of others who do know. Otherwise, one ends up looking incredibly foolish. So ok, he's not a "credentialed canonist" (though whatever would we say if he did in fact get his degree in canon law at a Catholic school?) but he is the best we've got, and it really isn't at all that bad.
#90
Anonymous
on
2008-04-04 06:29
Mr Watcher,
Some time ago you mentioned preparing to post a document with commentary from Church fathers relevant to this crisis.
(Memory refresher: .)
I looked on Monachos and OrthodoxNet.com and couldn't find it. Could you please post a link, if you still have the document? I'd really appreciate it.
Many thanks!
Some time ago you mentioned preparing to post a document with commentary from Church fathers relevant to this crisis.
(Memory refresher: .)
I looked on Monachos and OrthodoxNet.com and couldn't find it. Could you please post a link, if you still have the document? I'd really appreciate it.
Many thanks!
#91
A Fellow Orthodox Christian
on
2008-04-04 09:55
Dear Kenneth,
If you read my post again, you will see I'm sure that I wasn't actually defending fundamentalist Orthodoxy, whatever that is (ROCOR? GOCs?), but rather suggesting there may be valid pastoral reasons for the reservations these bishops evidently have. I have seen the label "fundamentalist" (and "liberal" for that matter) used many times to exclude valid concerns from public debate in the church. Let's deal with the issues rather than indulge in ad hominem attacks.
And what I wrote, please understand, was intended as a plea, not a lecture. If it sounded otherwise may we put it down to the inadequacies of e-communication.
If you read my post again, you will see I'm sure that I wasn't actually defending fundamentalist Orthodoxy, whatever that is (ROCOR? GOCs?), but rather suggesting there may be valid pastoral reasons for the reservations these bishops evidently have. I have seen the label "fundamentalist" (and "liberal" for that matter) used many times to exclude valid concerns from public debate in the church. Let's deal with the issues rather than indulge in ad hominem attacks.
And what I wrote, please understand, was intended as a plea, not a lecture. If it sounded otherwise may we put it down to the inadequacies of e-communication.
#92
Anthony
on
2008-04-04 18:26
I'm in a parish and I regard the HC method as a a source of heresy. When we begin to doubt the historicity of the the OT we call into doubt the necessity of the Incarnation. Aside from that, I would have to seriously question the intellectual abilities of a priest who agrees with HC throry, since the conclusions of its most famous adherents have been debunked by archaeologists over and over again, beginning in the 19th century.
#93
Matt Karnes of Holy Trinity Cathedral in San Francisco
on
2008-04-05 02:32
I have met seminarians from St. Tikhon's, and there are quite a few of them who, for example, wish to go back to the penance system of St. John the Faster, believe that all non-Chalcedonians are monophysite heretics, and believe that the only true interpretation of Genesis 1 is young-earth creationism. If this is what the Antiochians want, then fine, but excuse me if I disagree that such makes "good pastors".
I do, in fact, want my priest to cognizant of Scripture in an actual and real way, and not try to teach me a bunch of outdated Protestant fundamentalism in a homily. I've been down that road, and it goes nowhere. And if we can't understand Scripture what can we understand?
The "good pastors" line that some Antiochian bishops are pulling is little more than an excuse for their own Fundamentalist leanings. They are being more than a little short-sighted, and I am afraid they are going to pay for this very soon.
I do, in fact, want my priest to cognizant of Scripture in an actual and real way, and not try to teach me a bunch of outdated Protestant fundamentalism in a homily. I've been down that road, and it goes nowhere. And if we can't understand Scripture what can we understand?
The "good pastors" line that some Antiochian bishops are pulling is little more than an excuse for their own Fundamentalist leanings. They are being more than a little short-sighted, and I am afraid they are going to pay for this very soon.
#94
Anonymous
on
2008-04-05 14:03
I am confused by your statement. Perhaps you did not read my above replies? In any case, my point was that I expect seminarians who take a course in biblical studies become familiar with all the various academic discussions. They do, in fact, have value, even the HC. There was good reasons why the theory was brought up, there are real issues with the text, and HC sought to understand them. Sure, large portions have been surpassed by recent scholarship, but that's what scholarship does.
I don't think that H-C is necessarily a heresy, anymore than I think it necessarily discounts the Incarnation. But then, I don't place the authority of Scripture merely on its literal historicity. Archeology does not "debunk" anything, nor does it "bunk" anything. There are major issues with the text (thinking primarily in terms of the Pentateuch here) which archeology does not, and can not, solve. HC tried to solve them, so did/does many other approaches. All have their limits and their usefulness. But I believe understanding these approaches (not necessarily agreeing to them entirely) is useful in better understanding Scripture and its purpose. Down the path of strict historical literalism, on the other hand, lies only a shallow pool of narrative irrelevance. Therefore, I believe that teaching Scripture in a way that allows only verbal plenary inspiration worrisome.
By the way, I've actually done biblical archeology. And it does not prove verbal plenary inspiration anymore than it proves HC. All it proves is that there is a whole lot more going on in the text than we ever thought possible before.
I don't think that H-C is necessarily a heresy, anymore than I think it necessarily discounts the Incarnation. But then, I don't place the authority of Scripture merely on its literal historicity. Archeology does not "debunk" anything, nor does it "bunk" anything. There are major issues with the text (thinking primarily in terms of the Pentateuch here) which archeology does not, and can not, solve. HC tried to solve them, so did/does many other approaches. All have their limits and their usefulness. But I believe understanding these approaches (not necessarily agreeing to them entirely) is useful in better understanding Scripture and its purpose. Down the path of strict historical literalism, on the other hand, lies only a shallow pool of narrative irrelevance. Therefore, I believe that teaching Scripture in a way that allows only verbal plenary inspiration worrisome.
By the way, I've actually done biblical archeology. And it does not prove verbal plenary inspiration anymore than it proves HC. All it proves is that there is a whole lot more going on in the text than we ever thought possible before.
#95
Anonymous
on
2008-04-06 12:51
The link got cut out — sorry. It's
http://tinyurl.com/49epa2
http://tinyurl.com/49epa2
#96
A Fellow Orthodox Christian
on
2008-04-06 14:30
The author does not allow comments to this entry
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