Sunday, November 9. 2008
Commentary by Mark Stokoe
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Great commentary Mark! Hear, hear! Amen, Amen, Amen!
Archbishop JOB has indeed shown himself to be a man of integrity, courage, and love for truth, Christ, the Church, and the sheep. He is a faithful and true shepherd who can be trusted to lead the OCA. He has my wholehearted endorsement.
Archbishop JOB has indeed shown himself to be a man of integrity, courage, and love for truth, Christ, the Church, and the sheep. He is a faithful and true shepherd who can be trusted to lead the OCA. He has my wholehearted endorsement.
Mark,
No one could have said it better, more succinctly, or more logically than you have! May it be God's will that +Archbishop Job is our next Metropolitan, for he is a man of truth, and, as we know from the Gospel, Christ is the Truth (Jn 14:6)! Therefore, +Archbishop Job is a man of Christ, and is the best choice for Metropolitan!
In Christ,
No one could have said it better, more succinctly, or more logically than you have! May it be God's will that +Archbishop Job is our next Metropolitan, for he is a man of truth, and, as we know from the Gospel, Christ is the Truth (Jn 14:6)! Therefore, +Archbishop Job is a man of Christ, and is the best choice for Metropolitan!
In Christ,
#2
David Barrett
on
2008-11-09 15:44
Bravo Mark! Your commentary precisely reflects the feelings of the clear majority of those us following this debacle over the past several years. Although I am not a delegate, I would without hesitation nominate His Grace Bishop Job as Metropolitan. We are praying that the first ballot will be overwhelming - a miracle of unanimity for this fine man.
In particular I agree with your statement To the OCA's many critics, at home and abroad, these are signs of turmoil and impending collapse. But unto them which are called, to paraphrase St. Paul, it is the Power of God, and the Wisdom of God working among us. The turmoil of the last three years signals not our impending collapse, but the first signs of our renewed life.
Let us proceed with faith and confidence that a new day has dawned for the OCA!
In particular I agree with your statement To the OCA's many critics, at home and abroad, these are signs of turmoil and impending collapse. But unto them which are called, to paraphrase St. Paul, it is the Power of God, and the Wisdom of God working among us. The turmoil of the last three years signals not our impending collapse, but the first signs of our renewed life.
Let us proceed with faith and confidence that a new day has dawned for the OCA!
#3
Rich Kendall
on
2008-11-09 16:24
While I worry this 'commentary' is another (albeit subtle) step in the transformation of OCANews.org into Mr. Stokoe's personal propoganda machine, I must agree with the message nonetheless.
Archbishop Job has grown up in our community. He suffered for his integrity during this crisis. He has shown himself to truly be the best candidate for this office at this time. I pray the Holy Spirit reveals this truth to the Church when it gathers to make this decision.
Nilus Klingel
St. Andrew's Church, Dix Hills, NY
Student at Syracuse University
Archbishop Job has grown up in our community. He suffered for his integrity during this crisis. He has shown himself to truly be the best candidate for this office at this time. I pray the Holy Spirit reveals this truth to the Church when it gathers to make this decision.
Nilus Klingel
St. Andrew's Church, Dix Hills, NY
Student at Syracuse University
#4
Reader Nilus Klingel
on
2008-11-09 16:52
Sorry to burst your bubble, but + Job is not the best candidate. It's nice to see that you can use this forum for your own political desires, but it will ultimately be the Holy Spirit who decides. In 1970, + Theodosius was the best choice. He fell into misusing his office because CHECKS AND BALANCES were removed. Same with + Herman. Now, to decide who is the "BEST" choice to lead the OCA, it's none of those on the SOB. The "BEST" choice would be + Basil Essey of the Antiochians. Not only would he be the best choice for the OCA, but he would be the "BEST" and ONLY choice to be Patriarch of ALL the Orthodox in America. Choosing him would unite the Antiochians & OCA; he is well versed in all things of the OCA, Antiochians and Greeks; he is above reproach and a brilliant theologian & diplomat and has all the qualities necessary to lead for many years.
THIS would be the best choice for the OCA!
(Editor's note: But since that is not possible, requiring as it would a release from the Antiochian Archdiocese which would not be forthcoming, it is not the best. Perhaps I should have been clearer, that Archbishop Job is the best possible candidate.)
THIS would be the best choice for the OCA!
(Editor's note: But since that is not possible, requiring as it would a release from the Antiochian Archdiocese which would not be forthcoming, it is not the best. Perhaps I should have been clearer, that Archbishop Job is the best possible candidate.)
#5
Anonymous
on
2008-11-09 17:44
I have been most encouraged by the order of meetings at the upcoming AAC. The election of the Metropolitan is one of the last items on the agenda, and thus there is hope and time that the Holy Spirit can work among all the delegates and lead them to the best choice for the future of our Church.
I believe that choice that seems best to me is in fact ArchBishop Job.
Also, take note, for those who cannot attend, that audio recordings from the various sessions at the AAC will be available from ancientfaithradio.com.
And finally over the course of the last 3 years reading this web site blog and other postings, it seems that the Holy Spirit speaks through us all in the common vibe and perspectives found initially only here, but slowly the HS is making way on the oca.org site as well. Praise be to God! Thank you all for ministering to me.
I believe that choice that seems best to me is in fact ArchBishop Job.
Also, take note, for those who cannot attend, that audio recordings from the various sessions at the AAC will be available from ancientfaithradio.com.
And finally over the course of the last 3 years reading this web site blog and other postings, it seems that the Holy Spirit speaks through us all in the common vibe and perspectives found initially only here, but slowly the HS is making way on the oca.org site as well. Praise be to God! Thank you all for ministering to me.
Amen to (all of) that!
Alex
Alex
#7
Anonymous
on
2008-11-09 18:43
I nearly agree with everything you said Mark, but for the fact the Metropolitan Council has not done everything it ought to have done and has plenty of opportunities for continued complacency and complicity.
First, to your main theme on the next Met., I agree that either completely fresh blood or Abp. Job are the best options for Metropolitan. As much as I have wondered why Abp. Job behaves so weakly; the reasons have become quite clear. Rather than demanding audits, he had to ask a [weak] question. This would never do in the business world. Someone has to take a stand. I fear that Abp. Job would fail to implement the decisions of the AAC. We know from the 9th AAC that those decisions were not implemented, nor were they adjusted, they were in fact, ignored for convenience sake. I'm not blaming Job, but I honestly worry whether he will put his fist down when needed, or if he'd rather take a three year long route.
If the Synod goes away from the people again, I would say the AAC will probably collapse this time. In fact, the beginning of the churches entire collapse could begin. I myself will certainly consider the Antiochians at that juncture and I really love my parish.
Who would stay?
Onto those things I disagree with.. There are clear ethical problems recently disclosed here that the MC has done nothing or said nothing to address and their complacency hasn't been fully addressed as causal in the scandal.
One of them was the treatment of Fr. Dresko and perhaps a few others. Somehow we in the Orthdox faith believe its okay for an honest priest to be discharged without any source of sustinence. We must say, 'Well, he is a priest, so he can get by on the Gospel'. This trend will probably continue. That is okay, for all you folks that think unemployment compensation is bad, the other option are complicit and complacent employees and that only costs a couple million dollars per scandal! Wow. Can you say an open issue? In the context of reducing funding to 50 bucks, that'll certainly offer a wage for a fired priest discharged for honesty, huh?
Another was the removal of Fr. Searfoorce. Even you haven't editorialized on this instance much lately, Mark. Water under the bridge? What part of a scandal have I created in my mind? A Bishop removes an MC member for tough talk in tough times and everyone says nothing, does nothing cuz he's a Bishop and heaven forbid we ruffle those feathers! More of the same old OCA and the MC says nothing. Not even thanks for putting your head on the chopping block good priest. its a head shaker and clearly we learn nothing for the dollars Kondratick cashed and Herman looked past.. Fire anyone that speaks tough or out of turn. To suggest the priest should have believed the 2nd SIC would succeed is as bizarre as canning him.
Going back to the Dresko point above, the likelihood that we put more priests on the street with a funding change without any concern for their well being puts me at odds with the mentality of the church. I don't recall any Gospel lessons that suggest we should fire our priests and make them homeless for the Grace of God. Beyond that, we establish the reasons for complicity!!!!
Rocket science for the stupid. Make a priest fully subordinate to his master and pray the master is a good guy or we all get screwed in the process. Ain't my idea of Christianity.
One resolution ought to be making it possible for a cca/mc priest to be discharged and still collect a small wage from the OCA. This sure would help stop the baloney and is a big reason it happened. Now, many of you will jump on this and suggest an honest priest is a simple thing.
The honest priest's family can certainly survive on the Word of God alone! Food is after all such a moribund idea.
..my thoughts..
More ironing required..its a wrinkly organization.
(editor's note: It is not the MC's role to place priests in parishes. That is the diocesan Bishop's role. Nor is it the place for the MC to determine who represents a diocese. That is the diocese's decision. The MC can only determine if the rules were followed, and in this case, they were. )
First, to your main theme on the next Met., I agree that either completely fresh blood or Abp. Job are the best options for Metropolitan. As much as I have wondered why Abp. Job behaves so weakly; the reasons have become quite clear. Rather than demanding audits, he had to ask a [weak] question. This would never do in the business world. Someone has to take a stand. I fear that Abp. Job would fail to implement the decisions of the AAC. We know from the 9th AAC that those decisions were not implemented, nor were they adjusted, they were in fact, ignored for convenience sake. I'm not blaming Job, but I honestly worry whether he will put his fist down when needed, or if he'd rather take a three year long route.
If the Synod goes away from the people again, I would say the AAC will probably collapse this time. In fact, the beginning of the churches entire collapse could begin. I myself will certainly consider the Antiochians at that juncture and I really love my parish.
Who would stay?
Onto those things I disagree with.. There are clear ethical problems recently disclosed here that the MC has done nothing or said nothing to address and their complacency hasn't been fully addressed as causal in the scandal.
One of them was the treatment of Fr. Dresko and perhaps a few others. Somehow we in the Orthdox faith believe its okay for an honest priest to be discharged without any source of sustinence. We must say, 'Well, he is a priest, so he can get by on the Gospel'. This trend will probably continue. That is okay, for all you folks that think unemployment compensation is bad, the other option are complicit and complacent employees and that only costs a couple million dollars per scandal! Wow. Can you say an open issue? In the context of reducing funding to 50 bucks, that'll certainly offer a wage for a fired priest discharged for honesty, huh?
Another was the removal of Fr. Searfoorce. Even you haven't editorialized on this instance much lately, Mark. Water under the bridge? What part of a scandal have I created in my mind? A Bishop removes an MC member for tough talk in tough times and everyone says nothing, does nothing cuz he's a Bishop and heaven forbid we ruffle those feathers! More of the same old OCA and the MC says nothing. Not even thanks for putting your head on the chopping block good priest. its a head shaker and clearly we learn nothing for the dollars Kondratick cashed and Herman looked past.. Fire anyone that speaks tough or out of turn. To suggest the priest should have believed the 2nd SIC would succeed is as bizarre as canning him.
Going back to the Dresko point above, the likelihood that we put more priests on the street with a funding change without any concern for their well being puts me at odds with the mentality of the church. I don't recall any Gospel lessons that suggest we should fire our priests and make them homeless for the Grace of God. Beyond that, we establish the reasons for complicity!!!!
Rocket science for the stupid. Make a priest fully subordinate to his master and pray the master is a good guy or we all get screwed in the process. Ain't my idea of Christianity.
One resolution ought to be making it possible for a cca/mc priest to be discharged and still collect a small wage from the OCA. This sure would help stop the baloney and is a big reason it happened. Now, many of you will jump on this and suggest an honest priest is a simple thing.
The honest priest's family can certainly survive on the Word of God alone! Food is after all such a moribund idea.
..my thoughts..
More ironing required..its a wrinkly organization.
(editor's note: It is not the MC's role to place priests in parishes. That is the diocesan Bishop's role. Nor is it the place for the MC to determine who represents a diocese. That is the diocese's decision. The MC can only determine if the rules were followed, and in this case, they were. )
#8
Daniel E. Fall
on
2008-11-09 18:50
If the bishops truly take responsibility for their failures and welcome the truth, as they say they do, they should endorse Archbishop Job, the only one among them who actively strove for that truth and was proven right.
#9
Karina Ross
on
2008-11-09 18:56
Mark,
I agree with you wholeheartedly. Job is our best choice for Metropolitan. I can not add more to the reasons you gave for electing him to the position.
I agree with you wholeheartedly. Job is our best choice for Metropolitan. I can not add more to the reasons you gave for electing him to the position.
#10
Sam osman
on
2008-11-09 19:06
Allow me to add my wholehearted "amen," Mark! There is much, much wisdom in your words, and it is my fervent prayer that, if this course of action be the divine will, the Holy Spirit will cause the entire Council to do precisely as you will do. Grant it, O Lord!
#11
ejv
on
2008-11-09 19:33
Of course Stokoe is voting for his Bishop. Stokoe is Job's lapdog.
(editor's note: LOL. You clearly do not know me!)
(editor's note: LOL. You clearly do not know me!)
#12
Anonymous
on
2008-11-09 21:03
Oh noes, another election 
Just when you thought it was safe to go on the internets... Mark is right. It would be a shame if the one Bishop who seemed to not only grasp the wrongness but be willing to do something about it were not to be elected. I can't imagine any of the other candidates being capable of restoring a sense of trust.
Just when you thought it was safe to go on the internets... Mark is right. It would be a shame if the one Bishop who seemed to not only grasp the wrongness but be willing to do something about it were not to be elected. I can't imagine any of the other candidates being capable of restoring a sense of trust.
#13
Timothy Capps, Esq.
on
2008-11-09 22:37
Shanghai, 2008.11.10 Monday evening Shanghai Time
Dear Mark,
Thank you for your astute observations.
I have been following the OCA in all of its peregrinations for soon 40 years, both from within the United States, when I lived there, and now from China, my home. I almost married into one of the princely OCA dynasty families so that I can speak with a great deal of insight into the situation, both past and present. I would like to take this opportunity to give a rather biaised but factual historical assesment of the deluge which has swept over it -- it was a dleuge of its own making.
1. Metropolitan Theodosius was a creation and almost an imposed choice of the late Fs. Schmemann and Meyendorf. During the height of their powers, they were known as the "married metropolitans" of the church. They and their proteges engineered the "synodal" selection of Theodosius because he was intellectually "challenged", weak, ineffective, and had all the good qualities required of a stand-in candidate aka figurehead, to be quite frank.
2. It has been absolutely incredible, at least for me, during all of the past two years, to watch this psuedo-religious soap opera unfold to say how the post-Schemann and post-Meyendorf crowd have so strongly lamented the "how did we get into this mess". Forgive the simplistic answer but you got into this mess because you helped engineer this mess. You need to take ownership for your deeds, even post factum. Theodosius was as intellectually challenged as it comes.
3. The election of Herman was an in-camera revolt against the Schemannites and the Meyendorfites and the St. Vladimir's crowd that had taken over the OCA. It was in sort a victory of the children of the late 19th century immigrants over the First Immigration Russians who had deposited themselves in American circua 1930-1955 and who had rather directly taken the Metropolia for themselves. It was a predictable "va-et-vient" as the French say...or as we say here in China, the "feng shui" went back and forth.
4. The only thing that Theodosius did for himself was to get up in the morning and go to bed at night. Otherwise, for a fact, he decided nothing and deferred in all instances to the other eminences grise already in place.
5. Herman inherited a leaking, careening, moldy, worm-infested SS OCA Titanic that was already heading for the iceberg. In his shoes and with his personality, I am not sure what he could have done to right this vessel. It was already on the way to the bottom of its moral abyss. He was morally and socially and ethically in over his Metropolitan's klobuk, so to speak. So he bifurcated which is what, forgive me, what most cowards do.
6. Now, the selection of a Metropolitan. Nearly all of the Synod has been contaminated by its own form of moral inefficiency and corruption. Like it or now, Bishop Hilarion would have been a good clean choice. Or even Metropolitan Hilarion of ROCOR would have been a good choice.
7. Archbishop Job has moral character and excellent moral fiber, without a doubt. He has not come across, however, as a strong leader, but he has come across as a honest leader. He has weakened at times (like when he bowed before the worst bishop that the Orthodox Church in America has ever had , aka Nikolai the Import). In any case, for many reasons he reminds me of Patriarch Tikhon (Beliavin). And he is not indebted to the Schmennanites and the Meyendorfites and that crowd nor to the St. Tikhon's crowd but only to his diocese, to himself and to his Creator.
America, last week you elected one great man from Chicago. Now it's time to elect another.
Xiao Ling Tong
Nanjing Bei Lu
Shanghai, China
Dear Mark,
Thank you for your astute observations.
I have been following the OCA in all of its peregrinations for soon 40 years, both from within the United States, when I lived there, and now from China, my home. I almost married into one of the princely OCA dynasty families so that I can speak with a great deal of insight into the situation, both past and present. I would like to take this opportunity to give a rather biaised but factual historical assesment of the deluge which has swept over it -- it was a dleuge of its own making.
1. Metropolitan Theodosius was a creation and almost an imposed choice of the late Fs. Schmemann and Meyendorf. During the height of their powers, they were known as the "married metropolitans" of the church. They and their proteges engineered the "synodal" selection of Theodosius because he was intellectually "challenged", weak, ineffective, and had all the good qualities required of a stand-in candidate aka figurehead, to be quite frank.
2. It has been absolutely incredible, at least for me, during all of the past two years, to watch this psuedo-religious soap opera unfold to say how the post-Schemann and post-Meyendorf crowd have so strongly lamented the "how did we get into this mess". Forgive the simplistic answer but you got into this mess because you helped engineer this mess. You need to take ownership for your deeds, even post factum. Theodosius was as intellectually challenged as it comes.
3. The election of Herman was an in-camera revolt against the Schemannites and the Meyendorfites and the St. Vladimir's crowd that had taken over the OCA. It was in sort a victory of the children of the late 19th century immigrants over the First Immigration Russians who had deposited themselves in American circua 1930-1955 and who had rather directly taken the Metropolia for themselves. It was a predictable "va-et-vient" as the French say...or as we say here in China, the "feng shui" went back and forth.
4. The only thing that Theodosius did for himself was to get up in the morning and go to bed at night. Otherwise, for a fact, he decided nothing and deferred in all instances to the other eminences grise already in place.
5. Herman inherited a leaking, careening, moldy, worm-infested SS OCA Titanic that was already heading for the iceberg. In his shoes and with his personality, I am not sure what he could have done to right this vessel. It was already on the way to the bottom of its moral abyss. He was morally and socially and ethically in over his Metropolitan's klobuk, so to speak. So he bifurcated which is what, forgive me, what most cowards do.
6. Now, the selection of a Metropolitan. Nearly all of the Synod has been contaminated by its own form of moral inefficiency and corruption. Like it or now, Bishop Hilarion would have been a good clean choice. Or even Metropolitan Hilarion of ROCOR would have been a good choice.
7. Archbishop Job has moral character and excellent moral fiber, without a doubt. He has not come across, however, as a strong leader, but he has come across as a honest leader. He has weakened at times (like when he bowed before the worst bishop that the Orthodox Church in America has ever had , aka Nikolai the Import). In any case, for many reasons he reminds me of Patriarch Tikhon (Beliavin). And he is not indebted to the Schmennanites and the Meyendorfites and that crowd nor to the St. Tikhon's crowd but only to his diocese, to himself and to his Creator.
America, last week you elected one great man from Chicago. Now it's time to elect another.
Xiao Ling Tong
Nanjing Bei Lu
Shanghai, China
Dear Editor:
Not true. Anyone can be nominated from the floor for Metropolitan. Just as + Hilarion, if elected, would have to obtain a canonical release from the ROC to serve, same with + Basil or any other bishop. You are completely sold on + Job, but you and your cronies are wrong. + Job has done well in the Midwest - why ruin a good thing?
Not true. Anyone can be nominated from the floor for Metropolitan. Just as + Hilarion, if elected, would have to obtain a canonical release from the ROC to serve, same with + Basil or any other bishop. You are completely sold on + Job, but you and your cronies are wrong. + Job has done well in the Midwest - why ruin a good thing?
#15
Anonymous
on
2008-11-10 06:27
Nice alias:
Some of what you state is accurate, most is not.
1) Frs. Schmemann & Meyendorff did support + Theodosius for Met over + Dimitri in 1970, but SO DID THE ENTIRE SOB. + Theodosius was clearly the best candidate at the time. He embodied the best hope of an American church transitioning from the old Metropolia. And yes, Frs. Schmemann & Meyendorff were "THE" checks & balances for the SOB. When the SOB threw them out of their meetings, checks and balances ceased and the result is the corruption we have seen since the early 1990's.
2) The "mess" was created by fallen human nature with a lack of checks & balances. And yes, + Herman was a reaction against St. Vladimir's primarily due to jealousy and pride. As we have seen, + Herman's corrupt rule and "creative" LLC financing at STOTS was ten times worse than anything under + Theodosius. (Remember, RSK was a product of STOTS and put in power by + Herman)
3) Both + Hilarion's would have been a disaster for the OCA. An outside candidate may be a good choice, but someone with a true vision of an American Orthodox Church is absolutely necessary. The lack of good and serious candidates should be troubling to all. Time to go to married bishops!
Some of what you state is accurate, most is not.
1) Frs. Schmemann & Meyendorff did support + Theodosius for Met over + Dimitri in 1970, but SO DID THE ENTIRE SOB. + Theodosius was clearly the best candidate at the time. He embodied the best hope of an American church transitioning from the old Metropolia. And yes, Frs. Schmemann & Meyendorff were "THE" checks & balances for the SOB. When the SOB threw them out of their meetings, checks and balances ceased and the result is the corruption we have seen since the early 1990's.
2) The "mess" was created by fallen human nature with a lack of checks & balances. And yes, + Herman was a reaction against St. Vladimir's primarily due to jealousy and pride. As we have seen, + Herman's corrupt rule and "creative" LLC financing at STOTS was ten times worse than anything under + Theodosius. (Remember, RSK was a product of STOTS and put in power by + Herman)
3) Both + Hilarion's would have been a disaster for the OCA. An outside candidate may be a good choice, but someone with a true vision of an American Orthodox Church is absolutely necessary. The lack of good and serious candidates should be troubling to all. Time to go to married bishops!
#16
Anonymous
on
2008-11-10 06:47
Your thoughts and the entire article were excellent Mark.
From withIN the OCA---Archbishop JOB is the only sensible candidate.
From OUTside the OCA---Metropolitan HILARION of the Synod Abroad, (which I still think could further Orthodox unity in America more than we'll ever know).
But above all---May HIS will be done...and may we be attuned to His will in all things!
Come O Holy Spirit and fill the hearts and minds of all Thy faithful people and enkindle in us the FIRE of truth and the BRIGHTNESS of the Father's Only Begotten Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ, that we may all be accountable to Him now and for all Eternity for our thoughts, words, and deeds and have mercy upon us when we fail!
In His great mercy,
Fr. Pius, priestmonk
From withIN the OCA---Archbishop JOB is the only sensible candidate.
From OUTside the OCA---Metropolitan HILARION of the Synod Abroad, (which I still think could further Orthodox unity in America more than we'll ever know).
But above all---May HIS will be done...and may we be attuned to His will in all things!
Come O Holy Spirit and fill the hearts and minds of all Thy faithful people and enkindle in us the FIRE of truth and the BRIGHTNESS of the Father's Only Begotten Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ, that we may all be accountable to Him now and for all Eternity for our thoughts, words, and deeds and have mercy upon us when we fail!
In His great mercy,
Fr. Pius, priestmonk
#17
Fr Pius
on
2008-11-10 09:04
"[Archbishiop Job is] is not indebted to the Schmemannites and the Meyendorfites nor to the St. Tikhon's crowd, but only to his diocese, himself and to His Creator."
Amen!
Romans 13:8 says Owe no man anything but to love one another; for he that loves another has fulfilled the Law.
Isn't it Archbishop Job who wrote the music for the verse (John 13:34) *A new Commandment I give to you that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another*?
Archbishop Job apparently has his loyalty attached only to God and God's people, to serve them both as owing them the same love with which God has loved us in Christ, a love with no strings attached.
This love is a love far above worldly loyalties to
respected academicians or the loyalty to an denigrated ethnic group, for it encompasses all of humanity. Archbishop Job has this love in his heart, evidenced by his stand for truth.
Amen!
Romans 13:8 says Owe no man anything but to love one another; for he that loves another has fulfilled the Law.
Isn't it Archbishop Job who wrote the music for the verse (John 13:34) *A new Commandment I give to you that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another*?
Archbishop Job apparently has his loyalty attached only to God and God's people, to serve them both as owing them the same love with which God has loved us in Christ, a love with no strings attached.
This love is a love far above worldly loyalties to
respected academicians or the loyalty to an denigrated ethnic group, for it encompasses all of humanity. Archbishop Job has this love in his heart, evidenced by his stand for truth.
#18
Ever and anon.
on
2008-11-10 09:15
Rules were followed so that makes everything okay?
If my boss sets a rule and I follow it that's okay?
You've got me feeling like Lou Dobbs.
Removing Searfoorce from the MC followed the rules? Can you expound? The Diocesan Bishop can remove anyone anytime if he doesn't like something said? There is a problem with that.
Removing Dresko from the cca without any means for the bread on is table followed the rules? Some rules we live by...
I'm not sure what rules you are trying to defend when clearly change is needed.
(Editor's note: To be clear, Dan, I did not say I supported the removal of Fr. Seerforce - I simply reported that it was done in conformity with the rules in place. I do not like those rules, but until they are changed, there we are. Change is clearly needed.
If my boss sets a rule and I follow it that's okay?
You've got me feeling like Lou Dobbs.
Removing Searfoorce from the MC followed the rules? Can you expound? The Diocesan Bishop can remove anyone anytime if he doesn't like something said? There is a problem with that.
Removing Dresko from the cca without any means for the bread on is table followed the rules? Some rules we live by...
I'm not sure what rules you are trying to defend when clearly change is needed.
(Editor's note: To be clear, Dan, I did not say I supported the removal of Fr. Seerforce - I simply reported that it was done in conformity with the rules in place. I do not like those rules, but until they are changed, there we are. Change is clearly needed.
#19
Daniel E. Fall
on
2008-11-10 11:47
Let us continue to pray as we have been at our Liturgies these past weeks for the Holy Spirit to fill the hearts and minds of all gathered in Pittsburgh for all of the work of the Church, including selection of a new Metropolitan. Let us remember our Church in our prayers that all may contribute to her witness for Christ in our land. And let us be assured of the unfolding of God's Providence throughout our lives, our history and our future.
In Christ's love,
Fr. William
In Christ's love,
Fr. William
#20
Archpriest William DuBovik
on
2008-11-10 13:07
Dear Mark,
Thank you for a clear directive.
I believe that Archbishop Job is the best person for the job. In the back of my mind is the familiar quote by Winston Churchill: "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others." (not exact, I'm sure)
I also believe in the so-called law of unintended consequences. When H. Ross Perot ran as a third party candidate, many Conservatives and Republicans, disillusioned with the encumbant, supported him. By doing so, by splitting the votes and weakening solidarity, Bill Clinton was elected. When I argued with my mother-in-law (a life-long conservative Republican, from a family of Republicans) that a vote for Perot was a vote for Clinton, she left the room.
What I mean is this: if well-intentioned delegates in the first ballot place the names of anyone else other than Archbishop Job, the assembly will surely be forced to undergo the second ballot.
So, I urge all delegates, if it does not violate their consciences, to rise up as one and submit the name of +Job of Chicago.
Any name from outside our Synod of Bishops, is voting for H. Ross Perot. It is not the best use of a ballot.
Finally, I stand with the Very Rev. Dr. Col. Alexander Webster regarding Archbishop Job, and echo: "I, too, proclaim him."
Thank you for a clear directive.
I believe that Archbishop Job is the best person for the job. In the back of my mind is the familiar quote by Winston Churchill: "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others." (not exact, I'm sure)
I also believe in the so-called law of unintended consequences. When H. Ross Perot ran as a third party candidate, many Conservatives and Republicans, disillusioned with the encumbant, supported him. By doing so, by splitting the votes and weakening solidarity, Bill Clinton was elected. When I argued with my mother-in-law (a life-long conservative Republican, from a family of Republicans) that a vote for Perot was a vote for Clinton, she left the room.
What I mean is this: if well-intentioned delegates in the first ballot place the names of anyone else other than Archbishop Job, the assembly will surely be forced to undergo the second ballot.
So, I urge all delegates, if it does not violate their consciences, to rise up as one and submit the name of +Job of Chicago.
Any name from outside our Synod of Bishops, is voting for H. Ross Perot. It is not the best use of a ballot.
Finally, I stand with the Very Rev. Dr. Col. Alexander Webster regarding Archbishop Job, and echo: "I, too, proclaim him."
#21
Archpriest John T. Bacon
on
2008-11-10 13:48
Bravo Mike!
By the way, pairing +Job and +Jonah on the second ballot (should it come to that) is a masterly stroke.
Best wishes,
By the way, pairing +Job and +Jonah on the second ballot (should it come to that) is a masterly stroke.
Best wishes,
#22
Carl
on
2008-11-10 15:37
let me get this straight... because +Job sought accountability and vocally stood atop a public revolt of disapproval of his administrative juridiction, he is qualified to lead the very diverse and challeging membership of the OCA?
when exactly did +Job intercede exactly? -considering these misuses occurred prior to +Hermans tenure as metropolitan, he had to have some clue something was amiss, i'd say for at least several years prior to this coming to public attention.
we would be nuts to elect any of these hierarchs as metropolitan- +Job included. -these are the leaders who held their tongues until they themselves were put on the line.
when exactly did +Job intercede exactly? -considering these misuses occurred prior to +Hermans tenure as metropolitan, he had to have some clue something was amiss, i'd say for at least several years prior to this coming to public attention.
we would be nuts to elect any of these hierarchs as metropolitan- +Job included. -these are the leaders who held their tongues until they themselves were put on the line.
#23
herman
on
2008-11-10 18:33
What I read at this website, in general, sounds like behind-the-scenes vote canvassing for a new CEO of a secular corporation. Irrelevantly and anachronistically, I would prefer that a Metropolitan be chosen on the basis of his fidelity to the traditions of the Holy Orthodox Church, coupled with his pious lifestyle and obvious love for Christ. That would entail a different set of criteria, however, than the set promulgated on the Internet. Who would be God's preference for our new Metropolitan, I do not know. I'll just pray that God's will vanquish human considerations throughout the AAC. May His will be done, rather than man's.
#24
Antonia Colias
on
2008-11-10 19:30
Bishop Ilarion, Bishop Basil, married bishops, laymen... Why don't you simply elect Obama to be your next Metropolitan? You can then baptize and ordain him. That would resolve so many problems! State control over the OCA affairs! True democracy for the True Church of America!
#25
Louis Merton
on
2008-11-10 20:21
While reading another forum, I noticed a most impressive response to Mr Stokoe. Since he's taken his stand for the Bishop of the Midwest as Metropolitan.
Hopefully, the woman on that list doesn't mind that I stole her thunder. This is one of the best responses I've seen in months. Please enjoy (I will quote her on this):
"Which member of the Synod "has shown, from the beginning of the scandal, that he was willing to seek the truth?" Was this the same man who apologized for ignoring the truth when Mark first brought it to his attention several years ago?
Which member of the Synod was "the only man willing to suffer the abuse and contempt of his fellow bishops?" Was this the same man who led the charge to oust a fellow bishop and who subsequently apologized and prostrated himself, because "no one cautioned him that there might be a canonical violation regarding interference into the life of
another diocese?"
Which member of the Synod "demonstrated a dogged insistence that the allegations of financial impropriety be investigated and proven" and would, therefore, make an effective Metropolitan? Would this be the same man who not too long ago said: "I regret that I have been unable
to do more to bring this crisis, for us in the Midwest now two and one-half years old, to an end" and "I seek to retire from the active episcopate (God-willing) in three years, two months and one week (as of this writing). I am not capable – mentally, physically or spiritually to serve beyond that."
Which man has consistently "demonstrated integrity?" Would this be the same man who secretly videotaped one of his own during a commission of a crime?
Which man demonstrated "time and time again that he is willing to lay even his episcopacy on the line in defense of his flock?" Was this the same man, who when confronted with the possibility of deposition, said he was "hardly in a position to maintain a hard-line position?"
Which man demonstrated "a commitment to the pursuit of truth, no matter the cost?" Would this be the same man that said: "I know that people want to show support for my unworthiness, and their intentions are good, but inadvertently they make life more difficult for me."
Which man is up to the task of being the new Metropolitan? The man who said, "I seek to retire as the Archbishop of Chicago and the Midwest and live out my days in peace and repentance?"
Mark asks: "Are we going to repeat the mistakes of our recent
history?" - Apparently.
Michael Livosky
Hopefully, the woman on that list doesn't mind that I stole her thunder. This is one of the best responses I've seen in months. Please enjoy (I will quote her on this):
"Which member of the Synod "has shown, from the beginning of the scandal, that he was willing to seek the truth?" Was this the same man who apologized for ignoring the truth when Mark first brought it to his attention several years ago?
Which member of the Synod was "the only man willing to suffer the abuse and contempt of his fellow bishops?" Was this the same man who led the charge to oust a fellow bishop and who subsequently apologized and prostrated himself, because "no one cautioned him that there might be a canonical violation regarding interference into the life of
another diocese?"
Which member of the Synod "demonstrated a dogged insistence that the allegations of financial impropriety be investigated and proven" and would, therefore, make an effective Metropolitan? Would this be the same man who not too long ago said: "I regret that I have been unable
to do more to bring this crisis, for us in the Midwest now two and one-half years old, to an end" and "I seek to retire from the active episcopate (God-willing) in three years, two months and one week (as of this writing). I am not capable – mentally, physically or spiritually to serve beyond that."
Which man has consistently "demonstrated integrity?" Would this be the same man who secretly videotaped one of his own during a commission of a crime?
Which man demonstrated "time and time again that he is willing to lay even his episcopacy on the line in defense of his flock?" Was this the same man, who when confronted with the possibility of deposition, said he was "hardly in a position to maintain a hard-line position?"
Which man demonstrated "a commitment to the pursuit of truth, no matter the cost?" Would this be the same man that said: "I know that people want to show support for my unworthiness, and their intentions are good, but inadvertently they make life more difficult for me."
Which man is up to the task of being the new Metropolitan? The man who said, "I seek to retire as the Archbishop of Chicago and the Midwest and live out my days in peace and repentance?"
Mark asks: "Are we going to repeat the mistakes of our recent
history?" - Apparently.
Michael Livosky
#26
Michael Livosky
on
2008-11-10 20:26
Do you know the problem with your aspersions like "lap dog"? You lack any facts or validity to support your assertions. If Mark is a lap dog, then prove it with convincing argument. Sarcasm is not an inspirational force and proves nothing, other than that you are being sarcastic. It can only harm and tear down others unnecessarily. whether you agree with him or not, Mark made his reasons clear. His reasons are worthy of respect when presented respectfully, which they were. When will you people learn that fewer and fewer people are listening to your unsupported innuendo. If you have a different point of view that you wish to be considered, then present it with facts. Otherwise, you give us no reason to listen to your nonsensical writing. Rather, take the high ground and let the dialogue continue. We have only just begun. We need to create a culture of constructive dialogue to replace this culture of fear, control and power which is collapsing, thankfully.
#27
Anon.
on
2008-11-10 21:33
There seems to be many who just aren't sure who should be the next Met of the OCA. After all the OCA has been through, this is normal. What delegates should consider, if a long-term person hasn't manifested themselves, then look for a short-term (3-4 year) Met who will bring stability & credibility. Between now and the next AAC, a real search and evaluation of candidates should take place. It really is time to unite the OCA and Antiochians.
#28
Anonymous
on
2008-11-11 07:10
Who was it that made the Theotokos worthy to bear the Divine Son of God? Who was it that gave her the strength, mentally, spiritually and physically to say Yes to God?
Who was it that chose her to be a mother to the developing
God/Man come to earth? Who was it that gave her the
desire to see her Son complete His mission, even as she watched Him dying on the cross?
Who is then that can strengthen the new Metropolitan to be a true shepherd, a protector and a leader of God's flock?
Have we lost faith in the God, who bases His choice on purity of heart and not on administrative skills, educational qualifications or personal charisma?
Psalm 27;1 God is my strength and my salvation: whom then shall I fear. May this then be the hallmark verse of our next
Metropolitan.
Who was it that chose her to be a mother to the developing
God/Man come to earth? Who was it that gave her the
desire to see her Son complete His mission, even as she watched Him dying on the cross?
Who is then that can strengthen the new Metropolitan to be a true shepherd, a protector and a leader of God's flock?
Have we lost faith in the God, who bases His choice on purity of heart and not on administrative skills, educational qualifications or personal charisma?
Psalm 27;1 God is my strength and my salvation: whom then shall I fear. May this then be the hallmark verse of our next
Metropolitan.
#29
Ever and anon.
on
2008-11-11 10:12
Mark,
Thank you for putting words to my own thoughts!
I hope and pray that all who will be voting for a nominee and subsequently, for the Metropolitan of the OCA will see that all the things said and done (whether you agree or disagree with them) by his eminence Archbishpo JOB during the scandal were said and done out of love. Love for God, the church and his fellow human beings. I don't know if one of the other candidants can honestly say the same thing.
Sometimes we all stumble when trying to lead a moral and good life. I can only imagine what my fellow parishioners and friends could say about me if I were to find myself under a microscope such as the good Archbishop has been under for the past three years. I do know that I would not have half as good a defense as he.
I pray that everyone judging him will hold the same glaring light on themselves. Not very comfortable, is it? It's tough to be human; especially nowadays.
Thank you for putting words to my own thoughts!
I hope and pray that all who will be voting for a nominee and subsequently, for the Metropolitan of the OCA will see that all the things said and done (whether you agree or disagree with them) by his eminence Archbishpo JOB during the scandal were said and done out of love. Love for God, the church and his fellow human beings. I don't know if one of the other candidants can honestly say the same thing.
Sometimes we all stumble when trying to lead a moral and good life. I can only imagine what my fellow parishioners and friends could say about me if I were to find myself under a microscope such as the good Archbishop has been under for the past three years. I do know that I would not have half as good a defense as he.
I pray that everyone judging him will hold the same glaring light on themselves. Not very comfortable, is it? It's tough to be human; especially nowadays.
#30
Jeannie Markvan
on
2008-11-11 10:15
VERY WELL SAID. the election of our Met. must be completely, unabashedly, unequivically UNBIASED and above all made with a reasonable mind. I find thise degree of blind faith-like support and seemingly political veneration for +Job troubling. +Job is not the best leader of the OCA nor is he even a candidate based on his own submission of his intent to retire. a vote for +Job is a toss-away vote.
#31
Herman
on
2008-11-11 10:29
Steven,
Re: "...over the course of the last 3 years reading this web site blog and other postings, it seems that the Holy Spirit speaks through us all in the common vibe and perspectives found initially only here"
Lord, have mercy! As a reader of the postings over the past 3 years, it seems that there is another "little s" spirit speaking other than the Holy Spirit.
At this late stage of the game, I think there should be more fear dread and trembling on the part of the OCA, prayers and fasting that despite the sins committed over the course of these years by both clergy and laity, despite the lack of repentance on the parts of some loud and influential clergy and laity, that God may yet have mercy on his lost and confused flock.
Self congratulation about a common "vibe" and the "Holy Spirit" speaking through us seems to me more to be more of the same sowing of the seeds of pride, delusion and unrepentance that have brought the OCA to the brink in the first place.
Re: "...over the course of the last 3 years reading this web site blog and other postings, it seems that the Holy Spirit speaks through us all in the common vibe and perspectives found initially only here"
Lord, have mercy! As a reader of the postings over the past 3 years, it seems that there is another "little s" spirit speaking other than the Holy Spirit.
At this late stage of the game, I think there should be more fear dread and trembling on the part of the OCA, prayers and fasting that despite the sins committed over the course of these years by both clergy and laity, despite the lack of repentance on the parts of some loud and influential clergy and laity, that God may yet have mercy on his lost and confused flock.
Self congratulation about a common "vibe" and the "Holy Spirit" speaking through us seems to me more to be more of the same sowing of the seeds of pride, delusion and unrepentance that have brought the OCA to the brink in the first place.
#32
Anonymous
on
2008-11-11 13:02
Could it be that All Caps Anonymous Guy has finally found the caps lock key? It certainly reads like his inimitable style. Enquiring minds want to know.
#33
Scott Walker
on
2008-11-11 13:54
I must say that I am surprisingly encouraged by the openness and seemingly humility of our church leaders leading to / during the AAC. I don't think its any coincidence that having removed four bishops this past year, the members of the Synod are acting as they truly are. Each man is a superior pastor, and, I believe, cares deeply about the church. For the first time, there doesn't seem to be an air of personal agenda and in strife. I am greatly encouraged by this. +Herman was a true cancer (and thief). What is a shame though is that none of these men spoke up when they should have and questioned the finances. This said, the time to move forward has come. I think whoever is elected understands this. And, for this one time, I'm not opposed to placing the top three names in a chalice. At the last AAC, you kind of knew that +Herman would be Metropolitan. Here, it is undecided. God will decide, and, like the stock market, I believe that our lows will propel us to new heights, albeit a few years from now. I'm greatly encouraged and look forward to the new Metropolitan, whoever he may be.
#34
Anonymous
on
2008-11-11 21:20
Dear Mark,
I just read your 'Letter from Pittsburg'. After listening to the podcasts on Anc. Faith Radio and the 'press releases' on OCA.org; I want to thank you first of all for filling in the bare skeleton presented on both these sources. The podcasts omit any "q&a" sections, and end with the formal remarks of the speaker, so there is no way to get a feeling of how the speaker was received.
Except through your synthesis and analyis of the events. Thanks, again for filling in the blanks. Thanks also for confirming for me that my impressions of the podcasts were correct. I too saw archbishop Dmitri's comments as limited to "move on." I was interested to hear his reception was tepid. Also; your summary of Bishop Johah's presentation confirmed that my misgivings were valid.
Since I chose not to attend the ACC, I am thankful for the means available to be kept up to date, like the podcasts, but I am even more thankful that you will continue to provide news that does not make it to the podcast or to (the good old, same old) oca.org
( I would know nothing of Archbishop Seraphim's decision if not for you !)
Thanking you again for your good work.
I just read your 'Letter from Pittsburg'. After listening to the podcasts on Anc. Faith Radio and the 'press releases' on OCA.org; I want to thank you first of all for filling in the bare skeleton presented on both these sources. The podcasts omit any "q&a" sections, and end with the formal remarks of the speaker, so there is no way to get a feeling of how the speaker was received.
Except through your synthesis and analyis of the events. Thanks, again for filling in the blanks. Thanks also for confirming for me that my impressions of the podcasts were correct. I too saw archbishop Dmitri's comments as limited to "move on." I was interested to hear his reception was tepid. Also; your summary of Bishop Johah's presentation confirmed that my misgivings were valid.
Since I chose not to attend the ACC, I am thankful for the means available to be kept up to date, like the podcasts, but I am even more thankful that you will continue to provide news that does not make it to the podcast or to (the good old, same old) oca.org
( I would know nothing of Archbishop Seraphim's decision if not for you !)
Thanking you again for your good work.
#35
anon
on
2008-11-11 23:30
Curious that nobody keeps in mind (or risks admitting it) that this entire website is biased, and reflects the web owner's perspectives which, in turn, are supported by readers who share his views. That is the nature of personally-constructed websites. I express neither surprise nor complaint. I'm not familiar with any "balanced" websites about the OCA, so this one is "as good as it gets."
If Vladyka Dmitri elicited a "tepid" reponse, I can't refrain from asking readers to imagine themselves at the age of eighty-six, in faltering health, and required to compose and deliver a comparatively momentous speech. I would expect most of us to fare similarly.
Do people in the OCA lust for a noose and lynching? I think so. Just levy the civil penalties available for documentable fiscal crimes, no matter who the perpetrator(s). Just elect a Metropolitan who has no ties to the crimes.
Oh yes. Will somebody please inform me of when repentance and forgiveness were removed from the basic list of Christian core characteristics? Around here, when someone counsels those virtues, people guffaw.
(editor's note: on the contrary, this website and most of the writers on it have been counseling repentance and forgiveness for three years. No one has yet repented, let alone confessed, so forgiveness is difficult to achieve, unless of course, forgiveness does not require the latter in any form. While a pleasant thought, perhaps, it is not the Orthodox tradition. And if adhearance the words of Christ ( "Repent, for the kingdom of God) makes one "bloodthirsty for vengence", well, so be it. But I do not think it does. )
If Vladyka Dmitri elicited a "tepid" reponse, I can't refrain from asking readers to imagine themselves at the age of eighty-six, in faltering health, and required to compose and deliver a comparatively momentous speech. I would expect most of us to fare similarly.
Do people in the OCA lust for a noose and lynching? I think so. Just levy the civil penalties available for documentable fiscal crimes, no matter who the perpetrator(s). Just elect a Metropolitan who has no ties to the crimes.
Oh yes. Will somebody please inform me of when repentance and forgiveness were removed from the basic list of Christian core characteristics? Around here, when someone counsels those virtues, people guffaw.
(editor's note: on the contrary, this website and most of the writers on it have been counseling repentance and forgiveness for three years. No one has yet repented, let alone confessed, so forgiveness is difficult to achieve, unless of course, forgiveness does not require the latter in any form. While a pleasant thought, perhaps, it is not the Orthodox tradition. And if adhearance the words of Christ ( "Repent, for the kingdom of God) makes one "bloodthirsty for vengence", well, so be it. But I do not think it does. )
#36
Antonia Colias
on
2008-11-12 07:44
Well Mark -- after a well reasoned argument on behalf of Vladyka Job, looks like the Holy Spirit thought better of it. What happens now?
(Editor's note: My reasoning was predicated on the experiences of the past three years which saw the Synod fighting change whenever it good, and agreeing to change only when forced by necessity, events, negative publicity or the like, to do so. I thought it would be the same at the Council, and so encouraged the course I did, expecting that real change would come in 2011. God clearly had a more urgent timetable, for the Bishops suddenly and publicly have embraced change. Works for me.)
(Editor's note: My reasoning was predicated on the experiences of the past three years which saw the Synod fighting change whenever it good, and agreeing to change only when forced by necessity, events, negative publicity or the like, to do so. I thought it would be the same at the Council, and so encouraged the course I did, expecting that real change would come in 2011. God clearly had a more urgent timetable, for the Bishops suddenly and publicly have embraced change. Works for me.)
#37
Ok, Now What
on
2008-11-12 15:36
I am disappointed to read my post so caricatured. Repentance is not for our bishops, solely. Repentance includes users of this website, and OCA members everywhere who judged each other as if we were God. Repentance is for everybody.
Further, I know of no clairvoyant who can judge the depth or sincerity of our bishops' individual repentance. This is arrogance morphed into madness to claim that we know.
(Editor's note: No caricature was intended. I, too agree that repentance is for everybody. And as for "judging" the depth or sincerity of anybody's repentence, I think one can get a pretty good sense from t what they say about it. Just talk to them.)
Further, I know of no clairvoyant who can judge the depth or sincerity of our bishops' individual repentance. This is arrogance morphed into madness to claim that we know.
(Editor's note: No caricature was intended. I, too agree that repentance is for everybody. And as for "judging" the depth or sincerity of anybody's repentence, I think one can get a pretty good sense from t what they say about it. Just talk to them.)
#38
Antonia Colias
on
2008-11-13 10:06
Has anyone thought to, maybe, ask His Eminence Job about what he may or may not "owe" to Fr.'s Schmemann and Meyendorf? I think there may have been a common vision for the Church on this continent, and a common sense of what the Liturgy is about, though Job studied at STS. I studied under the two departed Deans and I know Job, though not well--not as well as I'd like--and I have served with him once or twice. Certainly in terms of liturgics, no SVS man would have any qualms.
BTW--check the date. I'm obviously NOT writing in order to "campaign." I saw and spoke to +Job after the election, and he seemed genuinely joyful, and, in fact, relieved, as I later heard he was.
BTW--check the date. I'm obviously NOT writing in order to "campaign." I saw and spoke to +Job after the election, and he seemed genuinely joyful, and, in fact, relieved, as I later heard he was.
#39
Fr. Dennis Buck
on
2008-11-13 22:19
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