Friday, April 3. 2009
Editorial
Your reactions to the Editorial, or to the Post Gazette story, are welcome here.
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Absolutely true! Good news!
It is good to see this new growth - the Church is alive and growing. + Seraphim is a fine example of a humble, well-educated bishop who can easily help in the NY/NJ area or other.
The OCA is recovering and will grow. The Holy Spirit moves in mysterious ways!
It is good to see this new growth - the Church is alive and growing. + Seraphim is a fine example of a humble, well-educated bishop who can easily help in the NY/NJ area or other.
The OCA is recovering and will grow. The Holy Spirit moves in mysterious ways!
#1
Anonymous
on
2009-04-03 06:31
I agree this is "good news" for a change, but hardly cause for a major celebration. One wonders if it would even have happened without the glare of Mark's steely gaze upon the Pittsburgh vacancy. Furthermore, we will have to see how the new bishop preforms (one hopes not like a head in the clouds monastic)--since we have all been very disappointed in other situations, even when conciliarity seemed to have been used, i.e. the election of Tikhon in the Diocese of the West.
As for Canada, it amuses me that a vicar bishop has been selected for Quebec City, of all places! I know Quebec City, I live there a few months of the year, and I have yet to find an OCA presence there despite occasional rumors that a mission somewhere exits. Maybe the new bishop will start a real parish. Heaven knows, the Roman Catholic Church has collapsed in Quebec so there should be plenty of room for growth.
So, all in all, one cheer--but not three.
KRT
As for Canada, it amuses me that a vicar bishop has been selected for Quebec City, of all places! I know Quebec City, I live there a few months of the year, and I have yet to find an OCA presence there despite occasional rumors that a mission somewhere exits. Maybe the new bishop will start a real parish. Heaven knows, the Roman Catholic Church has collapsed in Quebec so there should be plenty of room for growth.
So, all in all, one cheer--but not three.
KRT
#2
Kenneth R. Tobin
on
2009-04-03 07:23
Dear Ken,
Quebec City is served by Archpriest Anatoly Melnik of Montreal's Sts. Peter and Paul Sobor. His contact information is found under the parish directory listings on the OCA website. I have heard that the mission has a liturgy monthly, at this point; but check with Fr. Anatoly, a very fine priest, originally from Ukraine, and fluent in English. (I don't know if he has any French.) Hope that helps.
Fr. Philip
Quebec City is served by Archpriest Anatoly Melnik of Montreal's Sts. Peter and Paul Sobor. His contact information is found under the parish directory listings on the OCA website. I have heard that the mission has a liturgy monthly, at this point; but check with Fr. Anatoly, a very fine priest, originally from Ukraine, and fluent in English. (I don't know if he has any French.) Hope that helps.
Fr. Philip
#3
Igumen Philip (Speranza)
on
2009-04-03 08:32
I think having a Quebec bishop will allow the OCA to minister to one of the major ethnic groups on this continent that does not have a large Orthodox presence. We have Mexican, Alaskan (if Native Americans can be grouped together), now Quebecois, what is next?
Hopefully this bishop can help in the missionary work there! He can speak the language, he understands the Quebec mindset, and seems to be a devoted monastic. Also, Canada is largely split geographically (1000km gap between the 2 groups of parishes), this will hopefully free one of the 2 bishops to minister to the larger west.
Seigneur, prends pitié!
Hopefully this bishop can help in the missionary work there! He can speak the language, he understands the Quebec mindset, and seems to be a devoted monastic. Also, Canada is largely split geographically (1000km gap between the 2 groups of parishes), this will hopefully free one of the 2 bishops to minister to the larger west.
Seigneur, prends pitié!
#4
Reader Michael
on
2009-04-03 09:19
The Orthodox Church in America is a small pond. The newly elected bishops reflect both the geographic, and cultural, and global hopes of a faith which could unite in love a world in need of knowing and experiencing the compassion and unique individual saving power of Jesus Christ.
(My) prayer for God to strengthen our concern and prayerful advocacy for victims of clergy sexual abuse continues. It is only in bringing a 'safe house' administration to the OCA Synod of Bishops whereby instead of revictimzation and victims being persecuted for the faith, that a turn around from the protecting features of a men's club will bring about enlightment in this new order of the day.
Where is the budget to help victims of clergy abuse?
What elements are in place to have a clean temple after the soiling the retired bishops made in God's house?
(My) prayer for God to strengthen our concern and prayerful advocacy for victims of clergy sexual abuse continues. It is only in bringing a 'safe house' administration to the OCA Synod of Bishops whereby instead of revictimzation and victims being persecuted for the faith, that a turn around from the protecting features of a men's club will bring about enlightment in this new order of the day.
Where is the budget to help victims of clergy abuse?
What elements are in place to have a clean temple after the soiling the retired bishops made in God's house?
Quebec City is the capital city of the province of Quebec, which province has a very significant portion of the population of Canada. I guess that this might be a factor in the choice of Quebec, and major political significance. Canada is an officially bi-lingual country and the Archdiocese has been gradually trying to strengthen its presence among French-speaking people in Canada and to encourage French-language initiatives, including French-language articles in its publication The Canadian Orthodox Messenger, etc.
We are quietly establishing a significant number of missions which will of necessity be unimpresive and small, given our scattered population, beginning from the grassroots, with few resources. We support these efforts wherever they begin and they often flourish best in smaller centres which have neigbourhoods and communities where people can connect more easily than in big cities. We love one another as a family and thank God for the abundant signs of spiritual life and growth, nurtured by Vladyka Seraphim, with a view to embracing all of those who are seeking God and the fullness of life in Him. Connecting to, receiving from, and serving the long-suffering aboriginal peoples of Canada is another concern of some of us in being an Orthodox presence to all peoples and cultures in our country.
Our Archdiocese is reputed to be the largest in the world geographically but our beloved Archbishop makes an effort to be in each area of the country as often as possible. I have little doubt that an auxiliary bishop, long-needed, will strengthen greatly the Church in Canada. Thank you to the Holy Synod of Bishops for respecting and fulfilling the request of the faithful, clergy and bishop of the Archdiocese of Canada.
I (and I assume most of those in the Archdiocese of Canada) rejoice at the approval of Fr. Irenee, a French Canadian, a humble, loving man, whom we regard highly. This is a very forward-looking development and a great encouragement to us.
Contact information for the Orthodox presence in Quebec City can be found under "Directory" on the Archdiocese of Canada website at www.archdiocese.ca
We are quietly establishing a significant number of missions which will of necessity be unimpresive and small, given our scattered population, beginning from the grassroots, with few resources. We support these efforts wherever they begin and they often flourish best in smaller centres which have neigbourhoods and communities where people can connect more easily than in big cities. We love one another as a family and thank God for the abundant signs of spiritual life and growth, nurtured by Vladyka Seraphim, with a view to embracing all of those who are seeking God and the fullness of life in Him. Connecting to, receiving from, and serving the long-suffering aboriginal peoples of Canada is another concern of some of us in being an Orthodox presence to all peoples and cultures in our country.
Our Archdiocese is reputed to be the largest in the world geographically but our beloved Archbishop makes an effort to be in each area of the country as often as possible. I have little doubt that an auxiliary bishop, long-needed, will strengthen greatly the Church in Canada. Thank you to the Holy Synod of Bishops for respecting and fulfilling the request of the faithful, clergy and bishop of the Archdiocese of Canada.
I (and I assume most of those in the Archdiocese of Canada) rejoice at the approval of Fr. Irenee, a French Canadian, a humble, loving man, whom we regard highly. This is a very forward-looking development and a great encouragement to us.
Contact information for the Orthodox presence in Quebec City can be found under "Directory" on the Archdiocese of Canada website at www.archdiocese.ca
#6
Spencer Estabrooks
on
2009-04-03 11:44
I'm glad to see Bishop Seraphim (ret) of Japan is officially on board. Long time coming. He seems like a delightful fellow, with a fun weblog. I hope some diocese gets to profit from his talents; I'm jealous.
#7
Ba'ab
on
2009-04-03 11:44
Mark,
Thank you for a fine and accurate editorial! I agree that things are more hopeful now, what with three new bishops, all with theological education from an accredited seminary (+Tikhon and +Nikolai weren't the only bishops lacking this credential; there are still active ones in our midst today!) and chosen according to the model of conciliarity that is in line with the Holy Scriptures and Orthodox Tradition! Hopefully, the working through during this crisis will provide a model, an example, and a hope to our suffering brothers and sisters in the Antiochian Archdiocese! May all the anonymous and pessimistic "Chicken Littles" who consistently bash and berate this website take notice!
Thank you for a fine and accurate editorial! I agree that things are more hopeful now, what with three new bishops, all with theological education from an accredited seminary (+Tikhon and +Nikolai weren't the only bishops lacking this credential; there are still active ones in our midst today!) and chosen according to the model of conciliarity that is in line with the Holy Scriptures and Orthodox Tradition! Hopefully, the working through during this crisis will provide a model, an example, and a hope to our suffering brothers and sisters in the Antiochian Archdiocese! May all the anonymous and pessimistic "Chicken Littles" who consistently bash and berate this website take notice!
#8
David Barrett
on
2009-04-03 12:21
Thank you gentlemen, one and all, for your information and insights. It sounds like a very positive development!
KRT
KRT
#9
Kenneth R. Tobin
on
2009-04-03 12:41
The theological education is great, but it isn't the first item on my list of virtues - humility is. I know Bishop Seraphim and he is truly a humble and contrite man, in addition to being brilliant.
#10
Rich
on
2009-04-03 13:55
David, as one of your Antiochian brothers, I am gladend by this news. AXIOS!. However, I'm not sure we in Antioch are suffering just yet. Personally, I've had one of the most spiritually fruitful Lenten journey's ever because I used the occurences as a meditation on my own sins and failures. If this be suffering, I'll have more.
I don't think I'm alone either I fully expect, trusting in God, that whatever comes out of the Englewood meeting will work for good. I am equally sure that suffering may yet come but pray that they do not. Either way, we must continue to work to submit to the love of Christ and express that love in whatever way we are called to. Including saying no to episcopal mistakes.
Thank you for your prayers and concern. Together, in Christ, we will triumph.
I don't think I'm alone either I fully expect, trusting in God, that whatever comes out of the Englewood meeting will work for good. I am equally sure that suffering may yet come but pray that they do not. Either way, we must continue to work to submit to the love of Christ and express that love in whatever way we are called to. Including saying no to episcopal mistakes.
Thank you for your prayers and concern. Together, in Christ, we will triumph.
#11
Michael Bauman
on
2009-04-03 17:18
Just as a note, according to +Nikolai's biography on the OCA website, he graduated from Christ the Saviour Seminary in PA, and did post-graduate work at the Theological Faculty of the Serbian Orthodox Church in Belgrade, Yugoslavia. Were these facts overlooked?
(Editor's note: The official biography on the OCA site is in error. I very specifically said an "accredited" Orthodox Seminary, which Christ the Saviour is not. As the seminary itself notes on its website: "The Seminary cannot be compared to the theological academies of Europe nor is it comparable even to other Orthodox theological schools in America." Their humility and candor in this regard is both admirable and refreshing.
As for the Bishop's "post-graduate work", that did not happen in Belgrade. He was never accepted into the Theological Faculty as a student, as he did not graduate from an accredited Seminary. The school has no official record of him, but many remember he audited classes for some time, hoping to be accepted. )
(Editor's note: The official biography on the OCA site is in error. I very specifically said an "accredited" Orthodox Seminary, which Christ the Saviour is not. As the seminary itself notes on its website: "The Seminary cannot be compared to the theological academies of Europe nor is it comparable even to other Orthodox theological schools in America." Their humility and candor in this regard is both admirable and refreshing.
As for the Bishop's "post-graduate work", that did not happen in Belgrade. He was never accepted into the Theological Faculty as a student, as he did not graduate from an accredited Seminary. The school has no official record of him, but many remember he audited classes for some time, hoping to be accepted. )
#12
Anonymous
on
2009-04-03 19:53
While I think a seminary education can be helpful, it is the least of the qualifications for being a bishop. Seminaries have only existed for a few centuries. I am pretty sure St. Timothy didn't graduate from the theology faculty in Athens. And as for being accredited, I have to ask by whom? The Protestants, Catholics, Unitarians, and pagans sitting on the various accreditation boards? I am not saying Seminary is useless, I am saying it isn't as important as some people think it is. Some very good pastors have never been to seminary, and in their humility bemoan their inadequacy, wishing they had been able to go to seminary. Some very bad pastors are very proud of their M.Div., TH.M., and D.Phil. Seminary doesn't make a good bishop or a good priest. The Spirit of God, and hard work, and much prayer does.
(Editor's note: Agreed, but then St. Basil the Great and St. Gregory the Theologian, among many others, did study in Academe ( in their case, literally) so it seems a good model. Moreover, since we do not control the Spirit of God, we can create an environment to encourage the prayer, and hard work you mention, and a school to explain to students why that is important and how it has been done, and then showing them how to do it, seems the best way forward, no? )
(Editor's note: Agreed, but then St. Basil the Great and St. Gregory the Theologian, among many others, did study in Academe ( in their case, literally) so it seems a good model. Moreover, since we do not control the Spirit of God, we can create an environment to encourage the prayer, and hard work you mention, and a school to explain to students why that is important and how it has been done, and then showing them how to do it, seems the best way forward, no? )
The reason a "solid" Orthodox theological education is necessary (graduation from a recognized Orthodox seminary - degreed) is because the majority of Americans are educated and have attended colleges for a BA/BS, Masters or PH.D. A bishop lacking strong educational credentials is a "weak-sister' in American society. The analogy has been made many times, "Would you hire a doctor or lawyer who wasn't degreed? How about being well-read without a degree?" You know the answer. "Brain surgery for Dummies."
#14
Anonymous
on
2009-04-05 10:36
Given that these are early days in our church's recovery and that critical work remains to be done...
At this time can we afford to lose Fr. Michael Tassos?
Fr. Tassos has demonstrated his competence, professionalism and high standard of ethics.
Today it would seem to me entirely reasonable and indeed a necessary use of our OCA resources to employ Fr. Michael Tassos so as to enable him to continue the excellent work he has begun.
At this time can we afford to lose Fr. Michael Tassos?
Fr. Tassos has demonstrated his competence, professionalism and high standard of ethics.
Today it would seem to me entirely reasonable and indeed a necessary use of our OCA resources to employ Fr. Michael Tassos so as to enable him to continue the excellent work he has begun.
#15
Mary James
on
2009-04-05 11:56
We need to be clear(er) that Jordanville is not an accredited graduate school.
#16
Anonymous
on
2009-04-05 12:04
Sorry, anonymous. but the majority of Americans do not possess even a BA or a BS, let alone advanced degrees, so your argument fails on the basis of fact. More important, humility and kindness are not included in academic curricula, and these two qualities are more critical in a priest or a bishop than any amount of book learning. Looking over the saints, while there are people of great learning among them, (Sts. Basil, Gregory and Paul come immediately to mind) most of them were not blessed with the opportunity to study at all. Think of St. Peter being so honest about St. Paul's writings being difficult to understand. No, advanced education may be necessary for clerics in American society, but it is nowhere near sufficient.
#17
Scott Walker
on
2009-04-05 13:48
A hearty CONGRATULATIONS! MANY YEARS! and GOD BLESS!
#18
Anon
on
2009-04-05 14:52
Sorry Scott; having a bishop who is leading the church and people in Orthodox theology without the proper education is just ridiculous. In this day and age, we can't afford nice, long-beards making theological/church decisions who are less educated than "most" in the parishes. Again, next time you need surgery, have your local barber do it. The OCA's experience with + Tikhon of the West and + Nicolai of the far North have been disasters!
#19
Anonymous
on
2009-04-05 15:55
Ironic...
In the AOCA, the laity are decrying the denigration of the episcopacy that occurred when their bishops were 'deposed' to assistant-bishop status. They are calling for an end to the practice, and a return to correct diocesan structure. They want a reconnection with the ancient Christian understanding of the 'bishop as pastor.'
In the OCA, the laity are celebrating the creation/reception of two new assistant bishops. They see the new para-ecclesial bishops as totally normal - maybe even a celebration of American diversity. They want more hierarchical liturgies.
I think the Antiochians have got it right this time around.
(This is posted anonymously because, no matter what the propaganda may say, there is no 'openness' in the OCA. Dissent is still not permitted. The pious elite harbor hatred towards those who publicly disagree. And our bishops, instead of fighting the haters and protecting the dissenters, exhort us to "find silence." Hesychist theology is no excuse for quashing thoughtful disagreement.)
In the AOCA, the laity are decrying the denigration of the episcopacy that occurred when their bishops were 'deposed' to assistant-bishop status. They are calling for an end to the practice, and a return to correct diocesan structure. They want a reconnection with the ancient Christian understanding of the 'bishop as pastor.'
In the OCA, the laity are celebrating the creation/reception of two new assistant bishops. They see the new para-ecclesial bishops as totally normal - maybe even a celebration of American diversity. They want more hierarchical liturgies.
I think the Antiochians have got it right this time around.
(This is posted anonymously because, no matter what the propaganda may say, there is no 'openness' in the OCA. Dissent is still not permitted. The pious elite harbor hatred towards those who publicly disagree. And our bishops, instead of fighting the haters and protecting the dissenters, exhort us to "find silence." Hesychist theology is no excuse for quashing thoughtful disagreement.)
#20
Silenced
on
2009-04-05 16:10
Dear "Silenced:"
Hesychast spirituality has nothing to do with quashing dissent, prophetic or otherwise; and anyone who tries to misuse it in that way simply doesn't understand it. The bottom line is that the hesychast seeks to do what what, through the Prophet, God says to do: "Be still and know that I am God" (Ps.46[45]:10) and "meditate within your heart on your bed, and be still" (Ps.4:4). To do what it is our part to do in silencing all the voices within us (especially our own), so as to hear that "still small voice" of God (1 Kings 19:12) if and as He chooses to speak; to do what it is our part to do in clearing our inner sight of all that is not God and/or of God, so as to gain (if God graciously grants it and not otherwise) some small glimpse of the uncreated Light...that (in admittedly oversimplified terms) is hesychasm. It's not a tool, not a gimmick, not a magic formula; it's just taking God at the word He speaks in Jeremiah 29:13, "And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart."
Fr. Philip
Hesychast spirituality has nothing to do with quashing dissent, prophetic or otherwise; and anyone who tries to misuse it in that way simply doesn't understand it. The bottom line is that the hesychast seeks to do what what, through the Prophet, God says to do: "Be still and know that I am God" (Ps.46[45]:10) and "meditate within your heart on your bed, and be still" (Ps.4:4). To do what it is our part to do in silencing all the voices within us (especially our own), so as to hear that "still small voice" of God (1 Kings 19:12) if and as He chooses to speak; to do what it is our part to do in clearing our inner sight of all that is not God and/or of God, so as to gain (if God graciously grants it and not otherwise) some small glimpse of the uncreated Light...that (in admittedly oversimplified terms) is hesychasm. It's not a tool, not a gimmick, not a magic formula; it's just taking God at the word He speaks in Jeremiah 29:13, "And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart."
Fr. Philip
#21
Igumen Philip (Speranza)
on
2009-04-05 17:07
Lots of talk about the value of education!!!
I'm glad to see that everyone on this forum is so supportive of seminary education. I guess that means that once my fellow seminarians and I have graduated and are ordained we will get the proper respect and...yes, I will say it...finacial support that a properly educated Orthodox priest is deserving of, right? I think it only fair that if such high standards are placed on us, then we should expect to recieve the same amount of respect (and money) as others in our educational bracket. Am I right? Wrong? Are the pious long-beards looking better to you now? Last I heard they were a lot cheaper. Ask anyone in ROCOR.
Another thing. When you talk of education what matters? We have guys at seminary who have MDivs from evangelical protestant seminaries, and are only expected to attend seminary for one year. What about roman catholic priests who are simply vested into the clergy? What are your thoughts on these things? Is one year of seminary enough for a former pentecostal with an MDiv.? He's educated, right? No? And RCs spend more time in seminary than anyone else, so do they need an Orthodox education, or not?
I have far too long dominated the conversation. What are your thoughts on the matter?
I'm glad to see that everyone on this forum is so supportive of seminary education. I guess that means that once my fellow seminarians and I have graduated and are ordained we will get the proper respect and...yes, I will say it...finacial support that a properly educated Orthodox priest is deserving of, right? I think it only fair that if such high standards are placed on us, then we should expect to recieve the same amount of respect (and money) as others in our educational bracket. Am I right? Wrong? Are the pious long-beards looking better to you now? Last I heard they were a lot cheaper. Ask anyone in ROCOR.
Another thing. When you talk of education what matters? We have guys at seminary who have MDivs from evangelical protestant seminaries, and are only expected to attend seminary for one year. What about roman catholic priests who are simply vested into the clergy? What are your thoughts on these things? Is one year of seminary enough for a former pentecostal with an MDiv.? He's educated, right? No? And RCs spend more time in seminary than anyone else, so do they need an Orthodox education, or not?
I have far too long dominated the conversation. What are your thoughts on the matter?
#22
Anon. Seminarian
on
2009-04-05 17:09
Well, now, when I read about the "occasional rumors" re: a mission in Quebec city, I figured I simply must respond - lighthearted response, of course. Still, the record must be set straight for the sake of faithful who might be in search of a spiritual home.
The history of Holy Trinity mission in Quebec city, as served by SS Peter & Paul cathedral in Montreal, dates to 1952. The mission served Russian Orthodox faithful on a regular basis (vigil and Liturgy roughly once a month, plus key celebrations such as Sunday of the Cross, Holy Week services, etc., services celebrated in the All-Saints chapel of the Anglican church located in the old city) thru the late 1970's, by which time the mission shrunk to below critical mass. At the time, the mission had been served by various clergy such as Abp Sylvester (Haruns) and Fr Oleg Boldireff of blessed memory, and a young Fr John Tkachuk (recently in the news as a member of the SIC). I remember those days well, how as a 3-year old, I burned my fingers playing with a candle during Easter night!
The mission was dormant for over a quarter century until kick-started in 2005 by Fr Anatoliy Melnyk and ... yours truly from SS Peter & Paul Cathedral in Montreal, with services every 3 or 4 months.
For over two years now the mission has been served by ... Fr Irénée Rochon (yes, the same recently elected bishop) and retired priest Fr Nectaire Femenias.
Mr Eastabrooks refers to the directory on the Archdiocese, but I found the information to be somewhat correct. The information on the OCA is more up-to-date at:
http://www.oca.org/DIRlisting.asp?SID=9&KEY=OCA-CA-QUEHTM
I will be happy to send Mr Tobin (or anyone else interested) information on upcoming services at the mission in Quebec city; the next one is Lazarus Saturday, and probably Bright Saturday after that (to be confirmed). Or one can contact Fr Nectaire per the oca web site information. The services are now held roughly once a month, usually on a Saturday, in the Greek Orthodox church of the Annunciation, and attended by roughly 40 faithful. Although I live in Montreal (where I conducted the choir at SSPeter & Paul in the 1990's), I am down in Quebec city for most services to handle reading and choir duties. Services celebrated mostly in church slavonic. Welcome to all!
The history of Holy Trinity mission in Quebec city, as served by SS Peter & Paul cathedral in Montreal, dates to 1952. The mission served Russian Orthodox faithful on a regular basis (vigil and Liturgy roughly once a month, plus key celebrations such as Sunday of the Cross, Holy Week services, etc., services celebrated in the All-Saints chapel of the Anglican church located in the old city) thru the late 1970's, by which time the mission shrunk to below critical mass. At the time, the mission had been served by various clergy such as Abp Sylvester (Haruns) and Fr Oleg Boldireff of blessed memory, and a young Fr John Tkachuk (recently in the news as a member of the SIC). I remember those days well, how as a 3-year old, I burned my fingers playing with a candle during Easter night!
The mission was dormant for over a quarter century until kick-started in 2005 by Fr Anatoliy Melnyk and ... yours truly from SS Peter & Paul Cathedral in Montreal, with services every 3 or 4 months.
For over two years now the mission has been served by ... Fr Irénée Rochon (yes, the same recently elected bishop) and retired priest Fr Nectaire Femenias.
Mr Eastabrooks refers to the directory on the Archdiocese, but I found the information to be somewhat correct. The information on the OCA is more up-to-date at:
http://www.oca.org/DIRlisting.asp?SID=9&KEY=OCA-CA-QUEHTM
I will be happy to send Mr Tobin (or anyone else interested) information on upcoming services at the mission in Quebec city; the next one is Lazarus Saturday, and probably Bright Saturday after that (to be confirmed). Or one can contact Fr Nectaire per the oca web site information. The services are now held roughly once a month, usually on a Saturday, in the Greek Orthodox church of the Annunciation, and attended by roughly 40 faithful. Although I live in Montreal (where I conducted the choir at SSPeter & Paul in the 1990's), I am down in Quebec city for most services to handle reading and choir duties. Services celebrated mostly in church slavonic. Welcome to all!
#23
Michael Woinowsky-Krieger
on
2009-04-05 19:47
I won't have my barber do surgery, anonymous. That's silly and you know it. But for life-changing, serious spiritual business, I would far rather listen to my uneducated patron saint, Seraphim of Sarov, over the entire faculty of St. Vlad's and St. Tikhon's chanting together along with musical accompaniment by the New York Philharmonic. And once, again, most Americans have neither a BA nor a BS, much less graduate degrees. Your argument still fails, as it is based upon a false premise.
#24
Scott Walker
on
2009-04-05 20:59
One more point, anonymous. Nikolai and Tikhon were not disasters because of their lack of a seminary education. They were disasters because they failed in humility, in patience, in kindness and in love for their flock. Seminary cannot fix these failures, absent humility and love.
#25
Scott Walker
on
2009-04-05 21:02
The value of a higher education, in my opinion, is more than just the education. Lots of people can sit on their duff and twiddle their thumbs and still manage to graduate from high school, and even college. In order to succeed in a graduate degree the student must posses qualities beyond just rote memorization of facts. Graduate studies demands not only critical thinking skills (i.e. the ability to evaluate BS), but also critical self-reflection, honesty in research, and the ability to not only understand an abstract complex problem, but also to express that problem clearly and concisely in written form. So I don't particularly care if the bishops got their higher degrees in theology (though that's nice) or at an Orthodox school (which is also nice), I care whether or not the brain on their shoulders is able to, say, quickly evaluate the two sides of an issue and understand the larger ramifications of all possibilities. If a person has masters/doctoral degrees it is more likely that they have learned how to do this.
#26
Anonymous
on
2009-04-06 05:17
You address the "cost" of education. Yes, education does cost and some bishops are able to subsidize their seminarians fully, others cannot. This, however, isn't the issue. Your argument is, "Isn't better to have an uneducated priest or bishop than no priest or bishop?" From the earliest times there have been educated and uneducated clergy. Following these people, the uneducated have been responsible for a myriad of issues hurting the Church. Bottom line is, we're in an educated society and we expect our leaders to be well-educated.
RC clerics are received via profession of faith and vesting in Russian tradition. In Greek tradition, via chrismation, profession of faith and vesting.
Many students who have theological degrees from Protestant or RC institutions, only need to have their theology "tweeked" regarding their false beliefs. 80-90% of what they were taught is acceptable via an Orthodox perspective.
RC clerics are received via profession of faith and vesting in Russian tradition. In Greek tradition, via chrismation, profession of faith and vesting.
Many students who have theological degrees from Protestant or RC institutions, only need to have their theology "tweeked" regarding their false beliefs. 80-90% of what they were taught is acceptable via an Orthodox perspective.
#27
Anonymous
on
2009-04-06 06:36
PUT YOUR NAME DOWN!!!!
Dude, if you've decided to join the priesthood for the monetary aspects.....BAD CAREER CHOICE. Cause that's not going to happen, not today, tomorrow, or 50 years from now. You've had your calling for some other reason I'll assume. Why don't you press on with that calling and not worry about the money.
After that initial comment, I sure hope you'll never be the priest in my church. Your degree will mean nothing if you aren't humble and loving for those in your flock. A degree only takes you so far my friend. After that, it's hard work, initiative, and common sense. And it doesn't seem you have those at this point. Pay your dues and live poor like most of us have in our lives; then you can require someone pay the "finacial support that a properly educated Orthodox priest is deserving of."
Just a gee whiz question, what is an educated Orthodox priest worth these days????
WOW, that's what seminarians really think???? Money????
Dude, if you've decided to join the priesthood for the monetary aspects.....BAD CAREER CHOICE. Cause that's not going to happen, not today, tomorrow, or 50 years from now. You've had your calling for some other reason I'll assume. Why don't you press on with that calling and not worry about the money.
After that initial comment, I sure hope you'll never be the priest in my church. Your degree will mean nothing if you aren't humble and loving for those in your flock. A degree only takes you so far my friend. After that, it's hard work, initiative, and common sense. And it doesn't seem you have those at this point. Pay your dues and live poor like most of us have in our lives; then you can require someone pay the "finacial support that a properly educated Orthodox priest is deserving of."
Just a gee whiz question, what is an educated Orthodox priest worth these days????
WOW, that's what seminarians really think???? Money????
#28
Michael Livosky
on
2009-04-06 07:40
Arius was well educated for his time. So was Marcion. So was Tertullian. So was Pelagius. So was Origen. So were the bishops who assented to union with Rome at the Council of Florence. Are you beginning to see a pattern here, Anonymous?
I'm not knocking education, but, by itself, it's not enough. An educated scoundrel is a more dangerous scoundrel, as current financial events should make obvious. Humility and love. Jesus talks a lot about those, but there is not one word in the gospels about higher education. By the way, do you have a name? Want to share it?
I'm not knocking education, but, by itself, it's not enough. An educated scoundrel is a more dangerous scoundrel, as current financial events should make obvious. Humility and love. Jesus talks a lot about those, but there is not one word in the gospels about higher education. By the way, do you have a name? Want to share it?
#29
Scott Walker
on
2009-04-06 10:22
NOt this seminarian. I too found Seminarian #1's comment offensive. Most of my mates have sacrificed much to be here for love of God and Church, and are willing to sacrifice more for the chance to serve God's people.
#30
Another Seminarian
on
2009-04-06 12:09
Thanks for the unnecessary primer on hesychasm. I know what it is, in fact I've heard Metropolitan Jonah's traveling stump speech on the subject several times now. My reference to hesychasm wasn't a theological one, rather, it was a complaint about how Metropolitan Jonah (and other bishops) have basically said the following at some point or another:
'It is key for us as Orthodox Christians to put aside any doubts we may have. In order to find silence, we must put away our "self-righteous anger" (+MJ) stop our criticism, and live singularly in trust and love.'
I agree with that in theory, but at the same time, as a member of Christ's eucharistic community, I will not tolerate a sermon on hesychasm being used as an tool for blocking criticism and dissent. In fact, I will not tolerate any bishop using any excuse to block criticism and dissent. For too long have criticism and dissent been maligned as sinful or destructive. What about those critics and dissenters who are now lauded as heros? Have our bishops not yet learned from the example of Protodeacon Eric Wheeler, John Kozey, and OCANews' role in what Mark Stokoe refers to as "the Time of Troubles"?
It would seem to me that the Time of Troubles is nowhere near over.
But this is a diversion. My post was about how troubling it is to see the OCA going around creating more Bishops-Without-Dioceses (I'm assuming the Retired Bishop of Sendai will soon become the Bishop of Newark, or perhaps Bishop of Syosset) especially when the Antiochians are in an uproar over the same thing.
(editor's note: My total aversion to vicars or auxiliaries appointed by diocesan bishops is well known. I have much, but not total, aversion to those passed through by Diocesan Councils. I have no trouble with those chosen by dioceses.
But in point of fact, the Antiochians are not in uproar about the "same thing". In their case, clergy are not being made auxiliary bishops, but those enthroned as diocesan bishops are being made auxiliaries. Whatever one thinks about that issue, it is clearly a whole 'nother issue altogether!
'It is key for us as Orthodox Christians to put aside any doubts we may have. In order to find silence, we must put away our "self-righteous anger" (+MJ) stop our criticism, and live singularly in trust and love.'
I agree with that in theory, but at the same time, as a member of Christ's eucharistic community, I will not tolerate a sermon on hesychasm being used as an tool for blocking criticism and dissent. In fact, I will not tolerate any bishop using any excuse to block criticism and dissent. For too long have criticism and dissent been maligned as sinful or destructive. What about those critics and dissenters who are now lauded as heros? Have our bishops not yet learned from the example of Protodeacon Eric Wheeler, John Kozey, and OCANews' role in what Mark Stokoe refers to as "the Time of Troubles"?
It would seem to me that the Time of Troubles is nowhere near over.
But this is a diversion. My post was about how troubling it is to see the OCA going around creating more Bishops-Without-Dioceses (I'm assuming the Retired Bishop of Sendai will soon become the Bishop of Newark, or perhaps Bishop of Syosset) especially when the Antiochians are in an uproar over the same thing.
(editor's note: My total aversion to vicars or auxiliaries appointed by diocesan bishops is well known. I have much, but not total, aversion to those passed through by Diocesan Councils. I have no trouble with those chosen by dioceses.
But in point of fact, the Antiochians are not in uproar about the "same thing". In their case, clergy are not being made auxiliary bishops, but those enthroned as diocesan bishops are being made auxiliaries. Whatever one thinks about that issue, it is clearly a whole 'nother issue altogether!
#31
Silenced
on
2009-04-06 13:16
Wow. You guys totally didn't get it. I guess another thing we can say about education is that it doesn't automatically enable a person to get the gist of what someone else is trying to say. What I was getting at with my post is the simple fact that there is a lot that people expect out of us (being in seminary is very difficult, expecially if you have a family, etc.) but expect nothing of themselves when it comes to "taking care of" their priests. One would simply think that people would appreciate thier priests more considering the amount of education they have and what they have gone through to become "eligable" to serve the Church. Get it now? Don't be so dense. I'm not in this for the money.
And NO I will not give my name. I have learned about more than just Church history and theology in my years at seminary, and I will not make THAT mistake. Especially not around this loving bunch of people.
And NO I will not give my name. I have learned about more than just Church history and theology in my years at seminary, and I will not make THAT mistake. Especially not around this loving bunch of people.
#32
Anon. Seminarian
on
2009-04-06 13:31
"You have not chosen me...I have chosen you." Indeed,God will choose whom He will,not because of education (Yes,that is important ),but because God can see whats in the heart of the one he chooses.As one old monk replied to a comment that a Priest needs to be educated: "since when does the mind take precedent over the heart?"
#33
Anon
on
2009-04-06 13:36
If you know the meaning of hesychasm, why did you then deliberately misuse the word? Because either you do not in fact know what it means (otherwise you would not have used it so inappropriately to characterise the content of what you call Metropolitan Jonah's "stump speech"), or you are engaging in what you think is clever mud-slinging. Words have both correct denotations and correct connotations. Your misuse of the word "hesychasm" carries neither. If you're going to comment publicly (or privately, for that matter), you have a responsibility under the virtue of justice as well as the virtue of charity to be speaking the truth (Eph.4:15,25) accurately and honestly, especially when it comes to your brothers and sisters in Christ who are hesychast monastics on the Holy Mountain and elsewhere. Maybe the Bishops aren't trying to silence you personally as much as they are trying to defend the proper use of language.
Fr. Philip
Fr. Philip
#34
Igumen Philip (Speranza)
on
2009-04-06 15:15
"I guess that means that once my fellow seminarians and I have graduated and are ordained we will get the proper respect and...yes, I will say it...finacial support that a properly educated Orthodox priest is deserving of, right? I think it only fair that if such high standards are placed on us, then we should expect to recieve the same amount of respect (and money) as others in our educational bracket. Am I right? Wrong?"
Dude, read what you said. It doesn't take an education to understand what you said. That's a pretty clear statement with parentheses on the (and money). That's the gist of it pal.
Let me put in simple terms for you (the educated) to understand....I spent 22 years in the US Air Force, 22 years away (and at times FAR AWAY) from my family, 8 deployments in support of a war or 2. Don't comment on how hard it is for a married seminarian.
The expectations of those in the military are just as high and most likely higher than what you'll ever go through in your lifetime. People die if you don't do your job. One would simply think that people would appreciate the military as a whole instead of complaining about wars that are of none of their doing. Oh yeah and by the way, most of them aren't educated. Most of them are young kids dying for their country's values.
Let me offer you some advice from a non-school educated man. Don't bring up money and pay if you don't mean it. Cause those of us who aren't educated take that as your word.
Dude, read what you said. It doesn't take an education to understand what you said. That's a pretty clear statement with parentheses on the (and money). That's the gist of it pal.
Let me put in simple terms for you (the educated) to understand....I spent 22 years in the US Air Force, 22 years away (and at times FAR AWAY) from my family, 8 deployments in support of a war or 2. Don't comment on how hard it is for a married seminarian.
The expectations of those in the military are just as high and most likely higher than what you'll ever go through in your lifetime. People die if you don't do your job. One would simply think that people would appreciate the military as a whole instead of complaining about wars that are of none of their doing. Oh yeah and by the way, most of them aren't educated. Most of them are young kids dying for their country's values.
Let me offer you some advice from a non-school educated man. Don't bring up money and pay if you don't mean it. Cause those of us who aren't educated take that as your word.
#35
Michael Livosky
on
2009-04-06 18:50
I'm hoping that some knowledgeable person can inform us about the average wages of Orthodox priests a)newly ordained, b)after ten years, c)after twenty years in 1)GOA, 2)Antioch, 3)OCA, 4)ROCOR, 5)MP. I have heard that there are astonishing differences...
Hierodeacon Amvrosi
Hierodeacon Amvrosi
#36
Anonymous
on
2009-04-06 21:24
i think it is interesting that the most news, the best news, that has come out about these bishops is from mark. bravo.
what does it say about these sob's that even good news like this is being held close. they could have easily written about these 3 bishops the way mark did, but nooooooooooooooooooooo they'd rather revert to old models.
what does it say about these sob's that even good news like this is being held close. they could have easily written about these 3 bishops the way mark did, but nooooooooooooooooooooo they'd rather revert to old models.
#37
no name
on
2009-04-07 07:04
There are a few infamous priest-destroying parishes, but in my experience, albeit limited, this characterization of the active laity in our parishes seems really 'off.'
Our priests make sacrifices to attend seminary and continue to make material sacrifices throughout their lives. I think most parishioners are conscious of this and greatly appreciate our priests. The energy and talents that the priests I have known bring to all aspects of community life and to building up the parish as both a physical and spiritual home are prodigious.
Compensation is a challenge and is a test of our commitment. In my small parish, we are moving as fast and systematically as we can to bring our priest's compensation into line with OCA guidelines. At my former, larger, parish, we were working on the same thing.
Maybe I've got blinders on, but I don't see widespread lack of appreciation for our priests. I see love and care.
Our priests make sacrifices to attend seminary and continue to make material sacrifices throughout their lives. I think most parishioners are conscious of this and greatly appreciate our priests. The energy and talents that the priests I have known bring to all aspects of community life and to building up the parish as both a physical and spiritual home are prodigious.
Compensation is a challenge and is a test of our commitment. In my small parish, we are moving as fast and systematically as we can to bring our priest's compensation into line with OCA guidelines. At my former, larger, parish, we were working on the same thing.
Maybe I've got blinders on, but I don't see widespread lack of appreciation for our priests. I see love and care.
#38
Rebecca Matovic
on
2009-04-07 07:41
Yes, those were my exact words. If they were spoken, rather than written, then you would have known what I was getting at. I guess thats my fault, but I was sure that people would understand where I was coming from. One comes across a lot of horror stories here at Seminary, and I was just pointing out the fact that a lot more is required of us in order to be eligable to serve the Church than some people require of themselves when it comes to acceptable clergy compensation. The OCA is notorious for not paying their priests. Its a running joke between us and seminarians from other jurisdictions. For instance, the GOA requries a certain degree of education, but they also require that their priests make a certain salary. The OCA has no such guidlines in place. Whatever. My post was just my reasction to everyone stressing the need for highly educated clergy. Yes, I meant to ruffle some feathers, but I also thought that people would understand my point. I was wrong. It happens.
#39
Anon. Seminarian
on
2009-04-07 20:10
The author does not allow comments to this entry
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