Friday, May 29. 2009
A Call to Unity and the Mugwort Letters
Your comments on either are welcome.
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Thumbs up on "A call to unity." Mugwarts letter is very creative, but I fear it is presumptive. Can we know our own sins, yet we're willing to judge our Metropolitan?
#1
Antionymous
on
2009-05-29 13:48
What are you saying - are you calling for a mutiny against your Archbishop? How can you possibly connect the dots between what happened in the OCA and the situation with Antioch? One was clear financial malfeasance and cover-up; the other is politics and administrative governance. I think a letter like this is disgusting, if you are a priest. You are calling for mutiny and rebellion. Why donl;t you act like a man and resign if tou are so unhappy?
#2
Anonymous
on
2009-05-29 15:57
Smug, gratuitous, and over the top. Not helpful in our situation, if that is what it was meant to be.
#3
Peter
on
2009-05-29 18:02
this is a strange way of expression-i'm a bit confused-is this some sort of fictional writing playing off a harry potter fantasy??? if so-bizarre. who writes this stuff?
if its non-fiction... even worse, down right freaky-scary. either way-whats the deal?
(Editor's note: THe author, who wishes to remain anonymous, asks you to a look at "The Screwtape Letters" by C.S. Lewis.)
if its non-fiction... even worse, down right freaky-scary. either way-whats the deal?
(Editor's note: THe author, who wishes to remain anonymous, asks you to a look at "The Screwtape Letters" by C.S. Lewis.)
#4
BRAD
on
2009-05-29 18:09
To the priest calling for unity:
Please check your facts on the diocesan bishops how many priests they threw on the street with their families, too many.
Anonimous antiochian priest
Please check your facts on the diocesan bishops how many priests they threw on the street with their families, too many.
Anonimous antiochian priest
#5
Anonymous
on
2009-05-29 18:25
I don't care for this type of thing. Our dear Lewis didn't wield this literary type so directly at another person. The world may turn out to be more complicated than the depiction of an action we don't agree with being a Satanic plot. I for one am old enough to have seen something about which I was once certain turn out to be wrong. [Such as my Protestant upbringing.] No matter what I think of the current controversy, I argue for a bit more rhetorical restraint than this piece represents.
#6
Keith (Andrew)
on
2009-05-29 18:32
Brother, you said it ALL. The sad part is most will never see your post. Wish it could be mailed to all in the directory from "another" city. Board meeting this weekend sure to be a white wash. Loyalty to Damascus the "ring" of the day? Oh, that we were still united with England, No? Why not? The Patriarchates would ALL have encouraged it !
#7
Anonymous brother Priest
on
2009-05-29 20:43
Perhaps it's time to "hold our fire" for a bit until our bishops return from Damascus? If OCANews is correct in its assessment (and may it be so) Metropolitan PHILIP is about to have his plans thwarted, and there is every hope that things will be set aright. While it's dangerous, and most likely unfair, to point to him as the sole problem in all this, his known actions and words fairly draw the most scrutiny and criticism.
Would it not be fair, though, to wait and see what happens before continuing to repeat those criticisms over and over again?
Lord have mercy on our archdiocese
Would it not be fair, though, to wait and see what happens before continuing to repeat those criticisms over and over again?
Lord have mercy on our archdiocese
#8
anonymous antiochian handmaiden
on
2009-05-30 10:27
agreed on both counts
#9
Anonymous
on
2009-05-30 11:36
Well said "Antionymous" Unity and a common voice both now and especially in July. But it is my humble opinion that you may be going too far when you use CS Lewis in this manner. Let us leave Irony and Sarcasm aside and remain above reproach and blameless these issues are too serious bearing in mind remembering St Paul's admonition, " Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things."
#10
Fr John
on
2009-05-30 11:58
WARNING: MIXED METAPHORS AHEAD
Antionymous,
Does not the AOCA, as well as the rest of Orthodoxy, teach that all -- the laity, the clergy, and the hierarchs -- are the rational sheep of Christ the Good Shepherd? Doesn't the use of the adjective "rational" imply that Christ's rational sheep are to use their faculties in discerning whether or not a tree bears good fruit, as we are commanded by Our Lord God and Saviour Jesus Christ in Matt 7:16a, 20? While we are commanded not to judge, i.e., pronounce a sentence or condemn, we are commanded to discern. Step up and do as your Lord God and Saviour has commanded: call that which is evil "evil" and that which is good "good."
Antionymous,
Does not the AOCA, as well as the rest of Orthodoxy, teach that all -- the laity, the clergy, and the hierarchs -- are the rational sheep of Christ the Good Shepherd? Doesn't the use of the adjective "rational" imply that Christ's rational sheep are to use their faculties in discerning whether or not a tree bears good fruit, as we are commanded by Our Lord God and Saviour Jesus Christ in Matt 7:16a, 20? While we are commanded not to judge, i.e., pronounce a sentence or condemn, we are commanded to discern. Step up and do as your Lord God and Saviour has commanded: call that which is evil "evil" and that which is good "good."
#11
Mark C. Phinney
on
2009-05-31 04:49
The Board of Trustees meeting witnessed MP attck our twoChancellrs accusing them of sabbing him in th back.
The attack lasted for almost an hour and it was competely convoluted.
Sadly the two Chancellors who labore tirelessly to create the Constitution in accordance with the direction of MP were scolded and derided publicly for defending the content and terminology that MP himself provided to them.
How sad to see this public attack on two of the finest men of our Archdiocese. They were accused of violating their ethical duty, yet they fullfiled their ethical duty by informing the Board of Trustees of their Duties. Bob Koory offered his resignation and it was accepted. He left immediately. *How sad MP should have been the one leaving*.
The most outspoken critic was one of the women on the Board.
Do we have any MEN on the Board?
MP persisted in demanding a vote be taken to support the Feb 24 Resolution.
There was no vote taken.
If an open vote had mentaken he would possibly had gained a simply majority.
If a vote was taken by secret ballot, more than two-third would obviously have opposd the Resolution.
We will wait to see how our Diocesan Bishops are received. From all reports they will be warmly received.
The Archdiocesan Board wants to bein to collect a full tithe from all churches with no deductions.
Sadly two of th poorest givers to the Archdiocese are Troy and Livonia. Two Churches with the greatest voice and the poorest giving.
WE should discontinue representation based on REPORTED MEMBERSHIP andgo to a system based upon One Delegate for each Ten Thousand Dolloars. Every Parish below that should still have one vote.
MP should be t one removed not Bob Koory
The attack lasted for almost an hour and it was competely convoluted.
Sadly the two Chancellors who labore tirelessly to create the Constitution in accordance with the direction of MP were scolded and derided publicly for defending the content and terminology that MP himself provided to them.
How sad to see this public attack on two of the finest men of our Archdiocese. They were accused of violating their ethical duty, yet they fullfiled their ethical duty by informing the Board of Trustees of their Duties. Bob Koory offered his resignation and it was accepted. He left immediately. *How sad MP should have been the one leaving*.
The most outspoken critic was one of the women on the Board.
Do we have any MEN on the Board?
MP persisted in demanding a vote be taken to support the Feb 24 Resolution.
There was no vote taken.
If an open vote had mentaken he would possibly had gained a simply majority.
If a vote was taken by secret ballot, more than two-third would obviously have opposd the Resolution.
We will wait to see how our Diocesan Bishops are received. From all reports they will be warmly received.
The Archdiocesan Board wants to bein to collect a full tithe from all churches with no deductions.
Sadly two of th poorest givers to the Archdiocese are Troy and Livonia. Two Churches with the greatest voice and the poorest giving.
WE should discontinue representation based on REPORTED MEMBERSHIP andgo to a system based upon One Delegate for each Ten Thousand Dolloars. Every Parish below that should still have one vote.
MP should be t one removed not Bob Koory
#12
anonymous
on
2009-05-31 05:00
To a priest's call for Unity.
You sound paranoid and naive. Let me guess: you have 50 families in your parish, you wear a rasso and pony tail aroud town and you always complain how you are overworked and underpaid.
Try getting a real job. Are you always the victim? You sound like a marxist, stirring the uneducated masses. You, in your sactimonious wisdom, know what is best. You finally found a friend in a Diocean Bishop. Isn't that special.
Your call for rebellion and unity is misguided as is this website. Try growing your parish and not bad mouthing fellow priests.
You sound paranoid and naive. Let me guess: you have 50 families in your parish, you wear a rasso and pony tail aroud town and you always complain how you are overworked and underpaid.
Try getting a real job. Are you always the victim? You sound like a marxist, stirring the uneducated masses. You, in your sactimonious wisdom, know what is best. You finally found a friend in a Diocean Bishop. Isn't that special.
Your call for rebellion and unity is misguided as is this website. Try growing your parish and not bad mouthing fellow priests.
#13
Anonymous
on
2009-05-31 09:24
Sadly, MP is not giving up on this misadventure.
The finance of the Archdiocese remain cloaked.
Five of our Bishops are heading to Damscus at their own expense.
The BGC has organized 1015 people to followup the Bishops visit with men with FAT CHECKBOOKS
Given the presentation last Fall on the Balamand, i.e., to promote Lenbanese culture. To let the world know that the Lebanese are people of culture and education, etc.
Every word out of r salem's mouth was about being Arab or being Lebanese, it is a small wonder the Archdiocese is held captive by men educated there.
Why continue to support people with this agenda? Arab Culture?
Do we not have seminarians here on public assistance?
Do we not have a large numbe of seminarians NOT SCHOLARSHIPPED BY THE ARCHDIOCESE?
Do we not have a significant number of peoplehere who would like the opportunity to be better educated in their ORTHODOX FAITH to BETTER SERVE THE CHURCH AND OUR LORD.
Now the Board of trustees wants to increase the assessments by eliminted deductions for new construction, etc.
Why do the BGC parishes give so little? Why are they exempt from even what other parishes are require to give.
Before we chang our assessment, all parishes should be giving their required amount, espcially Detroit, Montreal and OK City.
Why do we tolerate a metropolitan who is power hungry. He says the system of the Orthodox Churc does not work then chastizes publically our beneficent Chancellors.
What MP means is the OrthodoxSystem doesnot work for someone who is power hungry.
It does not work for someone who is thirsty for control.
If PATRIARCH IGNATIUS WANTS TO FIX THE SITUATION IN NORTH AMERICA,THEN HE MUST RETIRE METROPOLITAN PHILIP.
OUR DIOCESAN BISHOPS MUST BE FULLY RESTORED TO THEIR OFFICE WITH ALL THE PEROGAIVES OF THEIR OFFICE.
A FULL AND COMPLETE OUTSIDE AUDIT MUST BE PERFORMED IMMEIATELY.
If Patriarch IGNATIUS listens to the fat wallets rather than to our Bishops we know the problem is not just in Englewood, Dtroit, OK CITY, and Montreal. We will know that the whole system is completely corrupt through and through.
For too long these overseas Metropolitans have been on the payroll of MP.
All members of the Order of St Ignatius must withold their contributions at once.
All private donations must cease at once.
All payment of parish assessments to he archdiocese must cease at once.
We can only be united where there is TRUTH, Honesty, Integrity, Transparency and most importantly a common vision --- serving th Holy Trinity...
The finance of the Archdiocese remain cloaked.
Five of our Bishops are heading to Damscus at their own expense.
The BGC has organized 1015 people to followup the Bishops visit with men with FAT CHECKBOOKS
Given the presentation last Fall on the Balamand, i.e., to promote Lenbanese culture. To let the world know that the Lebanese are people of culture and education, etc.
Every word out of r salem's mouth was about being Arab or being Lebanese, it is a small wonder the Archdiocese is held captive by men educated there.
Why continue to support people with this agenda? Arab Culture?
Do we not have seminarians here on public assistance?
Do we not have a large numbe of seminarians NOT SCHOLARSHIPPED BY THE ARCHDIOCESE?
Do we not have a significant number of peoplehere who would like the opportunity to be better educated in their ORTHODOX FAITH to BETTER SERVE THE CHURCH AND OUR LORD.
Now the Board of trustees wants to increase the assessments by eliminted deductions for new construction, etc.
Why do the BGC parishes give so little? Why are they exempt from even what other parishes are require to give.
Before we chang our assessment, all parishes should be giving their required amount, espcially Detroit, Montreal and OK City.
Why do we tolerate a metropolitan who is power hungry. He says the system of the Orthodox Churc does not work then chastizes publically our beneficent Chancellors.
What MP means is the OrthodoxSystem doesnot work for someone who is power hungry.
It does not work for someone who is thirsty for control.
If PATRIARCH IGNATIUS WANTS TO FIX THE SITUATION IN NORTH AMERICA,THEN HE MUST RETIRE METROPOLITAN PHILIP.
OUR DIOCESAN BISHOPS MUST BE FULLY RESTORED TO THEIR OFFICE WITH ALL THE PEROGAIVES OF THEIR OFFICE.
A FULL AND COMPLETE OUTSIDE AUDIT MUST BE PERFORMED IMMEIATELY.
If Patriarch IGNATIUS listens to the fat wallets rather than to our Bishops we know the problem is not just in Englewood, Dtroit, OK CITY, and Montreal. We will know that the whole system is completely corrupt through and through.
For too long these overseas Metropolitans have been on the payroll of MP.
All members of the Order of St Ignatius must withold their contributions at once.
All private donations must cease at once.
All payment of parish assessments to he archdiocese must cease at once.
We can only be united where there is TRUTH, Honesty, Integrity, Transparency and most importantly a common vision --- serving th Holy Trinity...
#14
anonymous
on
2009-05-31 14:38
Contrary to the lies being spread, MP did not fire our Chancellors -- He publically humiliated and chastised them.
His remarks were completely without substance.
He insisted the Board of Trustees vote on the Feb 24 Resolution of the Holy Synod.
At one point he stated Patriarch IGNATIUS was waiting for their vote.
Even when strongly coerced various members of the board of Trustees insisted to do so would further divide the Archdiocese and the Board of Trustees.
Given the remarks made a secret ballot would have shown 80-90 % opposed to the Feb 24 resolution.
It is highly unlikely the Patriarch askedfor or wanted a vote by the Board. MP was the one who needed it to validate his direction.
He did not get it! By NOT VOTING the Board showed how divisive the issue truly is.
Do we really want centralized control in the hands of a man who humiliates those who have served him faithfully for over twenty years.
As our father in Christ is this how we see God ---abusive and self-serving?
1. MP was unable to force the Diocesan Bishos to accept the Decision of the Adhoc Synod meeting on Feb 24th.
A meeting that a number of their Metropolitans were never informed of!
A meeting without a quorum.
A meeting that violated the Patriarchal Constitution and By-Laws.
A meeting that perhaps has inflamed the Metropolitans of the Holy Synod who were not invited.
2. MP was unable to get a concensus from the Board of Trustees on the Feb 24th decision.
3. MP, the Balamand Glee Club and wealthy members of the Board of Trustees will be going over to Damascus with their checkbooks in hand to try now to convince the fully assembled Holy Synod to uphold the illegal Decision of Feb 24th.
4. MP will now attempt to get the Holy Synod to bow down before the American Dollars. Will this now divide the Holy Synod as well?
5. MP will need to face the faithful at the National Convention.
The fathers of the Church tell us it takes a stroonger man to acknowledge his weaknesses.
Is MP strong enough to acknowledge his weakness?
His thirst for power?
His thirst for control?
His thrst for money?
His thirst for the accolades of the people?
A BISHOP RULES BY THE CONSENT OF THE PEOPLE.
WILL MP ADMIT HIS WEAKNESSES? ASK FOR FORGIVENESS AND STEP DOWN WITH GRACE?
A forced audit will not allow him to retire with any dignity....
His remarks were completely without substance.
He insisted the Board of Trustees vote on the Feb 24 Resolution of the Holy Synod.
At one point he stated Patriarch IGNATIUS was waiting for their vote.
Even when strongly coerced various members of the board of Trustees insisted to do so would further divide the Archdiocese and the Board of Trustees.
Given the remarks made a secret ballot would have shown 80-90 % opposed to the Feb 24 resolution.
It is highly unlikely the Patriarch askedfor or wanted a vote by the Board. MP was the one who needed it to validate his direction.
He did not get it! By NOT VOTING the Board showed how divisive the issue truly is.
Do we really want centralized control in the hands of a man who humiliates those who have served him faithfully for over twenty years.
As our father in Christ is this how we see God ---abusive and self-serving?
1. MP was unable to force the Diocesan Bishos to accept the Decision of the Adhoc Synod meeting on Feb 24th.
A meeting that a number of their Metropolitans were never informed of!
A meeting without a quorum.
A meeting that violated the Patriarchal Constitution and By-Laws.
A meeting that perhaps has inflamed the Metropolitans of the Holy Synod who were not invited.
2. MP was unable to get a concensus from the Board of Trustees on the Feb 24th decision.
3. MP, the Balamand Glee Club and wealthy members of the Board of Trustees will be going over to Damascus with their checkbooks in hand to try now to convince the fully assembled Holy Synod to uphold the illegal Decision of Feb 24th.
4. MP will now attempt to get the Holy Synod to bow down before the American Dollars. Will this now divide the Holy Synod as well?
5. MP will need to face the faithful at the National Convention.
The fathers of the Church tell us it takes a stroonger man to acknowledge his weaknesses.
Is MP strong enough to acknowledge his weakness?
His thirst for power?
His thirst for control?
His thrst for money?
His thirst for the accolades of the people?
A BISHOP RULES BY THE CONSENT OF THE PEOPLE.
WILL MP ADMIT HIS WEAKNESSES? ASK FOR FORGIVENESS AND STEP DOWN WITH GRACE?
A forced audit will not allow him to retire with any dignity....
#15
anonymous concerned Trsustee
on
2009-05-31 15:24
Given MP's defeat of a vote by the Board of Trustees for the Feb 24th Decision, he should know that he no longer knows the archdiocese anymore. Is hie going to get rid of all the board of trustees? No. He needs thir money.
Sadly, he will be gong to Damascus with 12-15 men with large bank accounts.
Perhaps we should let them py all the bills since they are determined to call the shots.
Sadly, he will be gong to Damascus with 12-15 men with large bank accounts.
Perhaps we should let them py all the bills since they are determined to call the shots.
#16
anonymous concerned Trsustee
on
2009-05-31 17:31
Peter, it could be helpful if it jolts us awake to the spiritual battle going on within the archdiocese. The ones really having fun right now are the evil ones serving the Evil One. I think one can rightfully argue that the temptations are for all of us and not just one person, but the point the author seems to be trying to make is that C.S. Lewis was on to something--that major events and crises have an ongoing spiritual battle behind them. In this way, the connections between the OCA and AOCANA are not as dichotomous as Anonymous would have them. I think that some have even noted the lack of auditing that occurs in the AOCANA. The similarities may turn out to be striking, except the AOCANA may turn out to be WORSE!
We needn't like the piece, but I think it has a place here on the website and it might do us all well to consider things from this angle. The point is not to judge +Philip's eternal future but to discern what has happened and what is right and wrong. If the three of you disagree with the anonymous author (and do we know he/she is a priest????) then we should support our contrary arguments, not just attack the author.
We needn't like the piece, but I think it has a place here on the website and it might do us all well to consider things from this angle. The point is not to judge +Philip's eternal future but to discern what has happened and what is right and wrong. If the three of you disagree with the anonymous author (and do we know he/she is a priest????) then we should support our contrary arguments, not just attack the author.
#17
Phileas
on
2009-05-31 19:47
As I have observed in other threads, the arguments about 'unity' evinced for the dethronement of our diocesan bishops in violation of the Holy Canons are the argument the Latins give for the universal ordinary jurisdiction of the Pope of Rome writ small.
When faced with a heresy, in this case an ecclesiological heresy, it is not called 'rebellion', it is called defending the Holy Orthodox Faith.
When faced with a heresy, in this case an ecclesiological heresy, it is not called 'rebellion', it is called defending the Holy Orthodox Faith.
#18
Subdeacon David [Yetter]
on
2009-05-31 20:24
A number of us never enjoyed the double talking Chancellors. However, their report was correct in every way our local attorneys agreed! Wish the 4 lawyers of TIMELINE could speak up. Their "locales" removed from their website? So their parish clergy would not receive the wrath of their despota. Met P is desperate and caused all of this for the lust of power. You see only bishops with a monastic experience or "ethos" are what is needed and badly missed! St Raphael pray for us as we are in trouble!!
#19
Anonymous Antiochian Parishioner
on
2009-05-31 23:43
A complete and thorough audit will prove to be a scandal for the whole Patriarchate not just for the AOCA and MP.
Hopefully, Patriarch IGNATIUS will see the magnitude of the events and attempt to minimize the impact and damage by seeking MP immediate retirement.
MP has divided his own synod.
He has divided the Board of Trustees.
He has divided the Archdiocese.
Even if he succeeds in gaining what he wants through the fat cats he takes with him, he will lose the war.
How? He may get what he wants from Damascus, but he has lost the love, respect and support of the people.
He must go....
Yes, it is a few priests with a mind set "not of the Church," but their poison impugns all of our emigrant priests. It impugns all graduates of the Balamand.
If MP and Patriarch IGNATIUS continue down this road together we will have no Archdiocese left, just empty Churches and buildings used for with Haflis, Casino Nights and Bingo to pay the bills and keep the club open.
The people who want to be ORTHODOX will leave. The ones who want to be just Arabs will stay.
Hopefully, Patriarch IGNATIUS will see the magnitude of the events and attempt to minimize the impact and damage by seeking MP immediate retirement.
MP has divided his own synod.
He has divided the Board of Trustees.
He has divided the Archdiocese.
Even if he succeeds in gaining what he wants through the fat cats he takes with him, he will lose the war.
How? He may get what he wants from Damascus, but he has lost the love, respect and support of the people.
He must go....
Yes, it is a few priests with a mind set "not of the Church," but their poison impugns all of our emigrant priests. It impugns all graduates of the Balamand.
If MP and Patriarch IGNATIUS continue down this road together we will have no Archdiocese left, just empty Churches and buildings used for with Haflis, Casino Nights and Bingo to pay the bills and keep the club open.
The people who want to be ORTHODOX will leave. The ones who want to be just Arabs will stay.
#20
anonymous
on
2009-06-01 03:48
mp's behavior and comments made him look like a fool.
Bob Koory and Charles Ajalat With their calm demeanor and well reasoned counsel showed them to be men of the Church.
Now we must see if the Patriarch and holy synod will make fools of themselves as well.
If they go with MP THE PEOPLE will go elsewhere.
Antioch's reputation is on the line!!!!!!!
Bob Koory and Charles Ajalat With their calm demeanor and well reasoned counsel showed them to be men of the Church.
Now we must see if the Patriarch and holy synod will make fools of themselves as well.
If they go with MP THE PEOPLE will go elsewhere.
Antioch's reputation is on the line!!!!!!!
#21
anonymous trustee of The LORD
on
2009-06-01 05:48
And yet another anonymous internet tough guy weighs in. I can understand a priest wishing to preserve anonymity, but what's your excuse?
#22
Scott Walker
on
2009-06-01 10:52
Oops....didn't you forget to insult his previous Protestant faith and the inability of his wife to properly prepare kibbi?
#23
Also Anonymous
on
2009-06-01 18:18
Ditto. Anybody remember the... behavior of Mark of Toledo towards Father Isaac Henke?
#24
Anonymous
on
2009-06-01 18:40
Sounds to me like fear is governing you, your reverence.
Obviously you are quite creative, and have a quick whit, yet if fear is your master, it will undermind
your best intentions and cloud your vision.
Where is repentence in this?
What does unity look like beyond either cowering in terror or standing in
fearful anger?
Obviously you are quite creative, and have a quick whit, yet if fear is your master, it will undermind
your best intentions and cloud your vision.
Where is repentence in this?
What does unity look like beyond either cowering in terror or standing in
fearful anger?
#25
Joshua Lambert
on
2009-06-03 05:42
The author does not allow comments to this entry
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