Friday, August 14. 2009
Philip Pulls First Year Students
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This is shocking and unbelievable. A disgrace! ANAXIOS! "You shall know them by their works." I am afraid that all the good work that +Philip has done over the years has now been eclipsed by the unethical, egotistical, and vengeful actions he's taken in the last year.
It seems the analysis of many on this site was dead on regarding the Metropolitan's dysfunctional conduct and comments in the last few months. Actions speak louder than words and it seems this latest action is in full accordance with the outrageous statements he's made recently. Something is indeed terribly wrong in the manner in which this hierarch is handling his sacramental duties and the size of his ego. Power corrupts and near absolute power corrupts significantly.
It seems the analysis of many on this site was dead on regarding the Metropolitan's dysfunctional conduct and comments in the last few months. Actions speak louder than words and it seems this latest action is in full accordance with the outrageous statements he's made recently. Something is indeed terribly wrong in the manner in which this hierarch is handling his sacramental duties and the size of his ego. Power corrupts and near absolute power corrupts significantly.
The megalomanical behavior of some of these church leaders is sickening.
+Phillip, Steve Mathews-Green's wife is getting ready to have a baby any minute. She, her unborn child, nor her family deserve kind of emotional upheaval and stress at such a critical time. Get over yourself and your anger at Mark Stokoe. The truth hurts no one. If its hurting you, perhaps you should examine your situation with your own spiritual father...do you have one? What are you teachinig your clergy? That if they get angry at someone, they can bully their way through whatever situation without regard for others? Unreal.
+Phillip, Steve Mathews-Green's wife is getting ready to have a baby any minute. She, her unborn child, nor her family deserve kind of emotional upheaval and stress at such a critical time. Get over yourself and your anger at Mark Stokoe. The truth hurts no one. If its hurting you, perhaps you should examine your situation with your own spiritual father...do you have one? What are you teachinig your clergy? That if they get angry at someone, they can bully their way through whatever situation without regard for others? Unreal.
#2
anonymous
on
2009-08-14 12:20
I'm glad everyone can see exactly what a "tyrant" Met. Philip is. He is proof that when we sing "Eis polla eiti DESPOTA," he is the "despot" being sung of.
Isn't it amazing how hierarchs love to hide the truth and suppress openness and transparency? Any of his new seminarians should tell him to go stick it in his mitre and become independent seminarians. I believe an appeal to Mr. Ajalat to pay for all the seminarians to study where they want may be the ticket.
Can any one else say, "Time for retirements?"
Isn't it amazing how hierarchs love to hide the truth and suppress openness and transparency? Any of his new seminarians should tell him to go stick it in his mitre and become independent seminarians. I believe an appeal to Mr. Ajalat to pay for all the seminarians to study where they want may be the ticket.
Can any one else say, "Time for retirements?"
#3
Anonymous
on
2009-08-14 12:25
Mark:
May God grant you many years!
-Joe
May God grant you many years!
-Joe
#4
Joseph
on
2009-08-14 12:35
We continue to pray for all our bishops, that they might be (as Saint Paul counseled Timothy): "blameless, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach, not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, but gentle, and not quarrelsome." (I Tim 3:2-3) And to all who are, we wholeheartedly say: Axios!
#5
Fr. Michael Molloy
on
2009-08-14 12:42
America's Bill of Rights in its Constitution safeguards the freedom of speech and the ability of the press to speak freely is a large part of that.
America has always been known for its freedom of speech and the ability of the press to be able to speak its mind.
Obviously, +Philip is angry. That is not new that people have become angry with Mark Stokoe, but there has also been much constructive praise for this site.
I can only sigh and say that I am not surprised that +Philip would do this.
It disrupts the lives of three seminarians and also my own trust I have in America's right to freedom of speech.
Mark is not officially speaking on behalf of the OCA.
Countless Antiochians have blogged on this site and the issue is not with this site but in trying to resolve the problems with the church and what the powers-that-be in the Orthodox world do with their power and control.
Patty Schellbach
America has always been known for its freedom of speech and the ability of the press to be able to speak its mind.
Obviously, +Philip is angry. That is not new that people have become angry with Mark Stokoe, but there has also been much constructive praise for this site.
I can only sigh and say that I am not surprised that +Philip would do this.
It disrupts the lives of three seminarians and also my own trust I have in America's right to freedom of speech.
Mark is not officially speaking on behalf of the OCA.
Countless Antiochians have blogged on this site and the issue is not with this site but in trying to resolve the problems with the church and what the powers-that-be in the Orthodox world do with their power and control.
Patty Schellbach
#6
Patty Schellbach
on
2009-08-14 12:42
"Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do. For they bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers." --Matt. 23:3-4
The scribes and the Pharisees are sitting in Moses's seat.
Dear seminarians, you will be in our prayers. Until the Lord may act, let us all keep our eyes firmly fixed on Him and not be deterred by the persecutions of this age.
"For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us." --Rom. 8:18
The scribes and the Pharisees are sitting in Moses's seat.
Dear seminarians, you will be in our prayers. Until the Lord may act, let us all keep our eyes firmly fixed on Him and not be deterred by the persecutions of this age.
"For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us." --Rom. 8:18
#7
Peter
on
2009-08-14 12:45
+Philip is creating a bigger problem for himself with this latest, stupid, move. Sooner or later he will have to slither off into retirement. Hopefully, sooner.
He doesn't seem to understand or relate to the real world. This latest atrocity punishes his own Antiochian students most of all, SVS and St Tikhon's to some degree, and his own standing within his archdiocese.
Maybe the Antiochian students will learn some Greek and transfer to the Greek Archdiocese where there is a lot less hierarchical shenanigans.
He doesn't seem to understand or relate to the real world. This latest atrocity punishes his own Antiochian students most of all, SVS and St Tikhon's to some degree, and his own standing within his archdiocese.
Maybe the Antiochian students will learn some Greek and transfer to the Greek Archdiocese where there is a lot less hierarchical shenanigans.
#8
Yanni
on
2009-08-14 13:02
Mark, continue to print the truth. Do not allow yourself to be bullied. You may suffer for it, I may suffer for it. But God will bless us all when you stand for what is right. (BUt please pray for us in the cross-hairs....)
#9
Antiochian Seminarian
on
2009-08-14 13:06
When the article came out by the Antiochian priest about MP's address to the Convention ("I'll Die When I Feel Like It"), I wanted to refer to an applicable line from the movie Gladiator. MP just keeps acting like a petty, tyrannical, tin-horn autocrat. It's like Abbot Touma's comments are completely ignored because the man is unwilling to change (I guess believing himself to be just fine the way he is, why mess with what's "working"?). He's just provided the perfect occasion to bring that quote up again:
"The time for honoring yourself will soon be at an end, Highness."
In response to this latest evidence of MP's inflexible tyranny, even Walid Khalife and his thugs won't be able to deflect what's coming.
For the time being, so that my priest won't get whacked, I'll just sign off as
"The time for honoring yourself will soon be at an end, Highness."
In response to this latest evidence of MP's inflexible tyranny, even Walid Khalife and his thugs won't be able to deflect what's coming.
For the time being, so that my priest won't get whacked, I'll just sign off as
#10
not MP's lapdog
on
2009-08-14 13:09
When is this going to STOP? Perhaps when His Beatitude realizes that the man he has left as Metropolitan is destroying the Antiochian archdiocese in North America...which, unfortunately, does not appear to be forthcoming any time soon.
Beyond the pastoral insensitivity of forcing new seminarians to make expensive and life-wrenching changes this close to the beginning of school, I don't understand how he actually has the authority to do this. If the bishops are in fact diocesans, then it is the bishops, not +Philip, who sends men to seminary. This seems to be far more than a slap at the editor of this website. It is a slap at the very diocesans whose status he theoretically had accepted at the archdiocesan convention. If +Philip can force this and win, then the diocesans are NOT sovereign in their own territories and +Philip IS the only "real" bishop in North America.
This is a very, very, bad development.
Beyond the pastoral insensitivity of forcing new seminarians to make expensive and life-wrenching changes this close to the beginning of school, I don't understand how he actually has the authority to do this. If the bishops are in fact diocesans, then it is the bishops, not +Philip, who sends men to seminary. This seems to be far more than a slap at the editor of this website. It is a slap at the very diocesans whose status he theoretically had accepted at the archdiocesan convention. If +Philip can force this and win, then the diocesans are NOT sovereign in their own territories and +Philip IS the only "real" bishop in North America.
This is a very, very, bad development.
#11
An Antiochian woman
on
2009-08-14 13:37
+Philip is a tyrant. These are the senseless, thrashing acts of a man incensed at the truth finding its way to the surface.
"We have nothing to hide" ain't real consistent with "Hammer seminaries because I don't like Stookey." The OCA wasn't too fond of Stookey once upon a time, either. Oh, but that was because he was shining the light of day into the OCA's sordid affairs. Coincidence? I think not.
I guess that we Antiochians ought to expect some more of these shenanigans, as all +Philip is doing is strengthening our will to bring even more truth to the surface.
"We have nothing to hide" ain't real consistent with "Hammer seminaries because I don't like Stookey." The OCA wasn't too fond of Stookey once upon a time, either. Oh, but that was because he was shining the light of day into the OCA's sordid affairs. Coincidence? I think not.
I guess that we Antiochians ought to expect some more of these shenanigans, as all +Philip is doing is strengthening our will to bring even more truth to the surface.
#12
Silouan James
on
2009-08-14 13:45
The Holy Synod of the Antiochian Church needs to speak with one voice and oppose the vindictive actions by Met. Philip and prevent this travesty from continuing. This incident will test the metal of the other bishops of the Synod and see where their loyalties lie; whether they have the courage and conviction to stand up for truth, righteousness, and the defense of innocence, or stay silent, compliant, and obedient to a metropolitan who's behaving like a tyrant. Your graces, show us that you are indeed the mirrors of Christ that you are called to be and are willing to pick up your crosses in defense of the innocent and all righteousness. We pray that the Holy Spirity will strengthen and help you to speak out and act against this vindictive and unjustifiable conduct by one of your own.
Anaxios! I am truly disgusted at this. Philip is a vindictive tyrant, pure and simple.
Let's start a fund so these students can stay at SVS, and tell Philip to stick his money where the sun don't shine. I'm sure the OCA will be happy to welcome these men into ministry after they graduate.
Let's start a fund so these students can stay at SVS, and tell Philip to stick his money where the sun don't shine. I'm sure the OCA will be happy to welcome these men into ministry after they graduate.
#14
JPS
on
2009-08-14 14:24
Bravo, Mark, for not giving in to blackmail, and shame on the OCA for asking you to do so!
(Editor's note: The Administration was relaying the message they were asked to relay, out of concern for the schools, to which the Metropolitan has a fiduciary responsibility as their President. I have often said, "Don't blame the messenger." I don't, nor should others. The responsible party here sits in Englewood, not Syosset. )
(Editor's note: The Administration was relaying the message they were asked to relay, out of concern for the schools, to which the Metropolitan has a fiduciary responsibility as their President. I have often said, "Don't blame the messenger." I don't, nor should others. The responsible party here sits in Englewood, not Syosset. )
This insensitivity is truly, truly appalling, at best. I was floored when I first got news of this, and am even more shocked as more and more information comes out. I pray that justice be done. I'm commenting anonymously because I'm local enough that I'm able to visit to their home parish easily.
#16
Anonymous
on
2009-08-14 14:51
Perhaps the met has a point. This site has made stoke more powerdful than the bishops themselves...and that isn't right. I fear the day when u idiots start calling mark vladiko.
(Editor's note:LOL. If any of that was true, you shouldn't you be referring to me as MARK, not mark?
(Editor's note:LOL. If any of that was true, you shouldn't you be referring to me as MARK, not mark?
#17
Ocanews must go
on
2009-08-14 14:54
Just a bit of history, Metr. Phillip did the same thing when he was upset by St. Vlad's over the Fr. Joseph Allen affair.
As the expression goes, "leopards don't change their spots." It would appear that Metr. Phillip has no intention of actually changing his spots. Since this is the case, I am really curious to know what all of the other diocesan bishops in the Antiochian Archdiocese think of this decision. Were they informed of it? Did they agree with it? And how about the board of trustees?
Metropolitan Phillip clearly did this unilaterally. He did the same thing 15 years ago. Has the church progressed so little that he can continue to pull stuff like this and everyone is going to stand by and let him get away with it?
I for one will now withhold my support from the Antiochian Archdiocese and the Order of St. Ignatius.
....
As the expression goes, "leopards don't change their spots." It would appear that Metr. Phillip has no intention of actually changing his spots. Since this is the case, I am really curious to know what all of the other diocesan bishops in the Antiochian Archdiocese think of this decision. Were they informed of it? Did they agree with it? And how about the board of trustees?
Metropolitan Phillip clearly did this unilaterally. He did the same thing 15 years ago. Has the church progressed so little that he can continue to pull stuff like this and everyone is going to stand by and let him get away with it?
I for one will now withhold my support from the Antiochian Archdiocese and the Order of St. Ignatius.
....
#18
Anon. Antiochian
on
2009-08-14 14:56
In this desperate act of power, Met Philip has revealed his true powerlessness. He cannot silence his critics. He cannot hide the problems of the Archdiocese. Therefore, he resorts to drastic measures -- to punishing third parties for whom he is supposed to be a shepherd and a father, in a futile attempt to just make it all go away. But it will not go away -- not now or ever. This is his great legacy.
I would encourage everyone who can to send money to St. Vladimir's and St. Tikhon's, to help compensate for the lost tuition. It might also be helpful to contact the President of Holy Cross, Fr. Nicholas Triantafilou, and encourage him to speak out against this sad action against SVS and STS and their students and families. He must be filled with sorrow to know that Met Philip intends to use his own institution against its sister seminaries.
I would encourage everyone who can to send money to St. Vladimir's and St. Tikhon's, to help compensate for the lost tuition. It might also be helpful to contact the President of Holy Cross, Fr. Nicholas Triantafilou, and encourage him to speak out against this sad action against SVS and STS and their students and families. He must be filled with sorrow to know that Met Philip intends to use his own institution against its sister seminaries.
#19
Ferris Haddad
on
2009-08-14 14:56
Dear Priests and Laity,
You don't become saints without suffering.
It might be the time to become a Saint.
Jacob Lee
You don't become saints without suffering.
It might be the time to become a Saint.
Jacob Lee
For months the Orthodox Attorneys have been holding back allowing +Philip “face-saving” room, only to be mocked and repeatedly rejected.
It’s about time that these attorneys take a page from the Tom Hagan character and give +Philip a Jack Woltz-like message. The time has come to “act like a man” and stand up to the crass materialistic director who needs the (figurative) head of someone dear to him delivered to send a message that his narcissistic attitude and abusive behavior will no longer be tolerated.
It’s about time that these attorneys take a page from the Tom Hagan character and give +Philip a Jack Woltz-like message. The time has come to “act like a man” and stand up to the crass materialistic director who needs the (figurative) head of someone dear to him delivered to send a message that his narcissistic attitude and abusive behavior will no longer be tolerated.
#21
Disgusted Antiochian Priest
on
2009-08-14 15:15
Assuming your query is not merely rhetorical ("When is this going to STOP?"), the answer is: when MP is gone.
#22
not MP's lapdog
on
2009-08-14 15:20
Mark: AXIOS! Keep up the good work. Let us pray for Philip, he is in dire need of the Lord's mercy. Unless he repents, he will be remembered for his calumnies and buffooneries, rather than his good works. I think we can all agree that Philip has beclowned himself.
Ach du liebe! How do things keep happening whenever we're either in the middle of a fast or about to celebrate a feast. (On 2nd thought, that pretty much describes every day in our Church.) On a brighter note, how cool that the child of this seminarian will be born in the shadow of Our Lady's Dormition! My kids were born on Dormition eve 3 years ago today. It's very nice that we can celebrate their birth as we celebrate the Mother of God's death.
#24
Rdr Mo
on
2009-08-14 15:36
It is difficult not to be saddened at the consequences of having spoken the truth when innocents are made to suffer for it. I offer thanks to Mark for this site and for the courage and fortitude required to stand up against wickedness, shallowness, and mafioso mentality.
Someone mentioned prior to convention that he hoped that MP's wizard staff would be broken ... harkening back to the imagery of the fallen wizard Saruman in Tolkien's Lord of the Rings stories. Honestly, I don't think MP has such powers and his persuasiveness is certainly not what it was. Reports indicated that his rhetorical abilities carried the day at convention but it takes more than a glib tongue to function as a true metropolitan. I think the case is more nearly that of the broken Saruman ... able to do no little amount of mischief back in Hobbiton. So you will know who I mean if I refer to MP as "Sharkey". I will keep praying for him. Every Sharkey has a Wormtongue. Maybe there is something "cursed" about the job and if so, may our good and holy bishops be kept safe from that curse.
Someone mentioned prior to convention that he hoped that MP's wizard staff would be broken ... harkening back to the imagery of the fallen wizard Saruman in Tolkien's Lord of the Rings stories. Honestly, I don't think MP has such powers and his persuasiveness is certainly not what it was. Reports indicated that his rhetorical abilities carried the day at convention but it takes more than a glib tongue to function as a true metropolitan. I think the case is more nearly that of the broken Saruman ... able to do no little amount of mischief back in Hobbiton. So you will know who I mean if I refer to MP as "Sharkey". I will keep praying for him. Every Sharkey has a Wormtongue. Maybe there is something "cursed" about the job and if so, may our good and holy bishops be kept safe from that curse.
#25
Monologistos
on
2009-08-14 15:43
This is just a very sad situation for those students. My thoughts and prayers are with them. I can't believe that a bishop (+MP) could be so vindictive. May our brothers and sisters in the Antiochian church soon be freed of this tyrant.
David Rudovsky
Carmichaels, Pa.
David Rudovsky
Carmichaels, Pa.
#26
Anonymous
on
2009-08-14 15:55
By the way, regarding the fantastic statement "I will die when I like", what occurs to me is Denethor, the poor mad steward of Gondor who refused to relinquish control of the throne when the King was at hand and chose instead suicide and attempted murder of his own son. I think it is time to grieve for Metropolitan Philip.
#27
Monologistos
on
2009-08-14 16:09
How to win friends and influence people, part 3, or is it part 4? If you can't force Damascus, the synod, the convention, why not just stomp on your future clergy? Then perhaps they will be loyal????
Lord, have mercy.
And what if Met Phil IS your local bishop???
Must be part 4.
Lord, have mercy.
And what if Met Phil IS your local bishop???
Must be part 4.
#28
pelagia
on
2009-08-14 16:21
Bravo "Stookey" 
.... He manipulates and undermines the ecclesiology his own eparchial synod, then tries bringing two seminaries to their knees. If HCHC administrators were men, they would refuse these transfers.
If the personality cult surrounding MP cares to read --this is an excellent article written by Metropolitan Photios ofthe Old Cal diocese of Marathon. Speaks volumes.
Hero Worshipping
The sickness of our Holy Struggle
By Bishop Photios of Marathon
"Trust ye not in princes, in the sons of men, in whom there is no salvation."
(Psalm 145:3)
We mustn't have absolute trust in human beings for our salvation, no matter what dignity they have. Human beings are changeable. Today they are saints, tomorrow - deniers. Today - sinners, tomorrow - righteous. We must have absolute trust in God, and in Him we must base our hopes of salvation. «Blessed is he of whom the God of Jacob is his help, whose hope is in the Lord his God» (Psalm 145:5). Human beings are often treacherous, and the one whom we admire today as a saint and virtuous, unfortunately we may see falling later, whereas someone else who didn't have a good reputation before may prove himself worthy in the circumstances and steady.
The Holy Struggle of the Genuine Orthodox Christians (G.O.C.) from the beginning until today has shown a great number of such examples. But if we search in depth through all the schisms that have taken place in the bosom of the G.O.C. we will find that it is the germ of hero-worshipping that is to blame. This germ coexists with us and when it finds us in favourable conditions, it causes the manifestation of the sickness. Well, let us examine these pestilential conditions, so that we can guard ourselves.
At the beginning of the manifestation of the disease there is required the presence of a spiritual father who has the reputation of being a virtuous man, albeit only in external appearance. It is not the essence that is significant but the external image. To have that it is sufficient not to have given cause for unfavourable comments.
Then it is necessary that this spiritual leader should have a close circle of spiritual sons around him who respect and esteem him. Up to a point, this is understandable.
However, this sickness is manifested when the spiritual sons are changed into disciples of the leader's person. This takes place as follows: The leader-spiritual father perhaps has some ability through which he attracts people. He may be ascetical, have fervent zeal, be an orator, or charitable. But he may also be simply clever, plotting several tricks through which he attracts the admiration of his spiritual sons. He may truly be virtuous at the beginning. However it is possible that he is full of hatred, carefully hiding his hate-filled side and overemphasizing some of his positive elements. Well, then, the germ of hero-worshipping surrounds such spiritual sons as belong to his immediate environment. It starts with flattery. When the elder's intimate environment is formed by monks or nuns, and the elder allows himself to be infected by the incense of those who cense him with flattery, then the sickness appears.
If the elder rejects flattery and breaks the cloud of the incense of flattery, and if he keeps the flatterers at a safe distance, then he is saved.
However, if the Elder does not oppose this, then, alas! a wicked circle is created in which the Elder inspires hero-worshipping in his worshippers and then gathers it back to himself from them like the incense of flattery. Then even if the elder is still virtuous, made dizzy by the cloud of flattery, he tends to believe himself that he has abilities which he does not have. He is convinced that he is a new Saint Mark Evgenikos, a new Saint Theodore the Studite, a new Saint Maximos the Confessor, a new pillar of Orthodoxy.
The close circle of disciples (the «Cherubim» and «Seraphim» of the Elder!) undertakes with zeal to advertise the admirable capabilities of the Elder to those who are found in the wider circle. For around the Leader's circle concentrical circles are formed. The widest of these consists of the «newly converted», to which the «rays» of the Elder reach after being intensified by their passage from the «Cherubim», «Seraphim», «seven-wing angels», etc. of the Elder. They characterize him as «The Teacher», «the Holy Father», «our Little Father» and «the Holy Elder». Above this proclaimed «saintly» Elder there is only God, from Whom he receives Divine inspirations. No Church Authority surpasses the «holy Elder», neither Bishops nor Synods. «Even if an angel from heaven» speaks to them against the teachings of the adorable person of the Elder «let it be anathema» for his disciples, who are subjected to the psychology of the mob.
The «Elder's» pictures cover completely the walls of his disciples, like the pictures of singers and athletes in the bedrooms of modern youth. And the hero-worshippers have in their cells more pictures of their «holy Elder» than icons of Christ!
They declare unblushingly that wherever their «Elder» goes, they will follow him even if he goes to Hell! Whatever the admirable «Elder» says is considered a dogma of faith. They invent yearly celebrations of the «Elder», icons of the elder are painted while he is still alive and after his death his bones are carried around in golden boxes like the ark of the testament! His grave is venerated and his personal objects are given as prizes. Nobody becomes accepted in the ranks of the disciples if they do not fall on their knees to venerate the imaginary icon which they have themselves created of their Elder.
The most tragic consequence is the effect on the person of the Elder himself, whom the flatterers of the close circle have created as another golden calf for veneration by the mob. Perhaps these flatterers have a greater responsibility than the Elder himself, who was driven by them to different illegal actions, such as schisms and divisions. They led him to believe that he himself is the «Saviour» of the Church!
Intense prayer and continuous attention is required so that nobody may be found in the situation of these people, and it is especially important that all our clergymen are afraid of the flatterers. Our ancient ancestors were correct when they stated that they «were afraid of the flatterers and they were in favour of the crows because the crows eat flesh while the flatterers tear the souls to pieces».
.... He manipulates and undermines the ecclesiology his own eparchial synod, then tries bringing two seminaries to their knees. If HCHC administrators were men, they would refuse these transfers.If the personality cult surrounding MP cares to read --this is an excellent article written by Metropolitan Photios ofthe Old Cal diocese of Marathon. Speaks volumes.
Hero Worshipping
The sickness of our Holy Struggle
By Bishop Photios of Marathon
"Trust ye not in princes, in the sons of men, in whom there is no salvation."
(Psalm 145:3)
We mustn't have absolute trust in human beings for our salvation, no matter what dignity they have. Human beings are changeable. Today they are saints, tomorrow - deniers. Today - sinners, tomorrow - righteous. We must have absolute trust in God, and in Him we must base our hopes of salvation. «Blessed is he of whom the God of Jacob is his help, whose hope is in the Lord his God» (Psalm 145:5). Human beings are often treacherous, and the one whom we admire today as a saint and virtuous, unfortunately we may see falling later, whereas someone else who didn't have a good reputation before may prove himself worthy in the circumstances and steady.
The Holy Struggle of the Genuine Orthodox Christians (G.O.C.) from the beginning until today has shown a great number of such examples. But if we search in depth through all the schisms that have taken place in the bosom of the G.O.C. we will find that it is the germ of hero-worshipping that is to blame. This germ coexists with us and when it finds us in favourable conditions, it causes the manifestation of the sickness. Well, let us examine these pestilential conditions, so that we can guard ourselves.
At the beginning of the manifestation of the disease there is required the presence of a spiritual father who has the reputation of being a virtuous man, albeit only in external appearance. It is not the essence that is significant but the external image. To have that it is sufficient not to have given cause for unfavourable comments.
Then it is necessary that this spiritual leader should have a close circle of spiritual sons around him who respect and esteem him. Up to a point, this is understandable.
However, this sickness is manifested when the spiritual sons are changed into disciples of the leader's person. This takes place as follows: The leader-spiritual father perhaps has some ability through which he attracts people. He may be ascetical, have fervent zeal, be an orator, or charitable. But he may also be simply clever, plotting several tricks through which he attracts the admiration of his spiritual sons. He may truly be virtuous at the beginning. However it is possible that he is full of hatred, carefully hiding his hate-filled side and overemphasizing some of his positive elements. Well, then, the germ of hero-worshipping surrounds such spiritual sons as belong to his immediate environment. It starts with flattery. When the elder's intimate environment is formed by monks or nuns, and the elder allows himself to be infected by the incense of those who cense him with flattery, then the sickness appears.
If the elder rejects flattery and breaks the cloud of the incense of flattery, and if he keeps the flatterers at a safe distance, then he is saved.
However, if the Elder does not oppose this, then, alas! a wicked circle is created in which the Elder inspires hero-worshipping in his worshippers and then gathers it back to himself from them like the incense of flattery. Then even if the elder is still virtuous, made dizzy by the cloud of flattery, he tends to believe himself that he has abilities which he does not have. He is convinced that he is a new Saint Mark Evgenikos, a new Saint Theodore the Studite, a new Saint Maximos the Confessor, a new pillar of Orthodoxy.
The close circle of disciples (the «Cherubim» and «Seraphim» of the Elder!) undertakes with zeal to advertise the admirable capabilities of the Elder to those who are found in the wider circle. For around the Leader's circle concentrical circles are formed. The widest of these consists of the «newly converted», to which the «rays» of the Elder reach after being intensified by their passage from the «Cherubim», «Seraphim», «seven-wing angels», etc. of the Elder. They characterize him as «The Teacher», «the Holy Father», «our Little Father» and «the Holy Elder». Above this proclaimed «saintly» Elder there is only God, from Whom he receives Divine inspirations. No Church Authority surpasses the «holy Elder», neither Bishops nor Synods. «Even if an angel from heaven» speaks to them against the teachings of the adorable person of the Elder «let it be anathema» for his disciples, who are subjected to the psychology of the mob.
The «Elder's» pictures cover completely the walls of his disciples, like the pictures of singers and athletes in the bedrooms of modern youth. And the hero-worshippers have in their cells more pictures of their «holy Elder» than icons of Christ!
They declare unblushingly that wherever their «Elder» goes, they will follow him even if he goes to Hell! Whatever the admirable «Elder» says is considered a dogma of faith. They invent yearly celebrations of the «Elder», icons of the elder are painted while he is still alive and after his death his bones are carried around in golden boxes like the ark of the testament! His grave is venerated and his personal objects are given as prizes. Nobody becomes accepted in the ranks of the disciples if they do not fall on their knees to venerate the imaginary icon which they have themselves created of their Elder.
The most tragic consequence is the effect on the person of the Elder himself, whom the flatterers of the close circle have created as another golden calf for veneration by the mob. Perhaps these flatterers have a greater responsibility than the Elder himself, who was driven by them to different illegal actions, such as schisms and divisions. They led him to believe that he himself is the «Saviour» of the Church!
Intense prayer and continuous attention is required so that nobody may be found in the situation of these people, and it is especially important that all our clergymen are afraid of the flatterers. Our ancient ancestors were correct when they stated that they «were afraid of the flatterers and they were in favour of the crows because the crows eat flesh while the flatterers tear the souls to pieces».
#29
John Peter Presson
on
2009-08-14 16:26
antiochp@scs-net.org
The email address on the Patriarchial Letterhead on their webpage.
I suggest writing the Patriarch and letting him and his staff know the feelings of the flock in North America.
In Christ,
Dn. Marty
Martin D. Watt, CPA
former Antiochian
The email address on the Patriarchial Letterhead on their webpage.
I suggest writing the Patriarch and letting him and his staff know the feelings of the flock in North America.
In Christ,
Dn. Marty
Martin D. Watt, CPA
former Antiochian
#30
Dn. Marty Watt
on
2009-08-14 17:12
Can It Be Known now ??? Pray this Truth is printed for all to see and know!
When the Joe Allen (mess) broke Met. Philip took out two seminarians, that we know of from personal knowledge, after finishing TWO years at St Vladimir's Seminary and insisted they complete their THIRD (and final year) at Hol Cross Greek Seminary. This is attested to by a classmate with the facts undisputable ! They could not graduate with their classmates. At least unmarried they suffered enough with this "despotic" move. All over Joe Allen and the Seminary refusing to have him teach there. He (J.A.) has never returned and Met. P. has never forgotten. Hang in there, Mark, as truth will never die!
When the Joe Allen (mess) broke Met. Philip took out two seminarians, that we know of from personal knowledge, after finishing TWO years at St Vladimir's Seminary and insisted they complete their THIRD (and final year) at Hol Cross Greek Seminary. This is attested to by a classmate with the facts undisputable ! They could not graduate with their classmates. At least unmarried they suffered enough with this "despotic" move. All over Joe Allen and the Seminary refusing to have him teach there. He (J.A.) has never returned and Met. P. has never forgotten. Hang in there, Mark, as truth will never die!
#31
Anonymous Mid-West
on
2009-08-14 17:19
What a..... little man. And Fr.Gregory Matthews-Green and his wife were very quiet about this entire mess and it is their son who suffers!
ANAXIOS!
ANAXIOS!
#32
Stephen Montgomery
on
2009-08-14 17:26
What can we, as laity, do to protest this dictator's behavior? He is going to destroy the archdiocese to satisfy his inflated ego. I'm so sad and discouraged. ..
#33
anon
on
2009-08-14 17:27
Now that Met P. has pulled out the Antiochian students, it is my guess this why Charles Ajalat resigned as chancellor. Just a guess. Also, this move shows everyone why people/priests write "anonymously"
#34
anon
on
2009-08-14 17:55
Yes, the big question here to me is where does Philip get the AUTHORITY to say who can go to the OCA's seminaries and who can't? I can see that if the Antiochians are paying the tuition he might be able to pull the students' scholarships, but how can he say, "You can't go to school here, you must now go to school over there."?
Another big question is how these students can suddenly, three weeks before the fall term, be admitted to Holy Cross? Is the Greek Archdiocese wading into this pool of madness and supporting Philip?!!
(Editor's note: The Archbishop made it clear that if the seminarians wanted scholarships or recognition from the Archdiocese these would only be available if they attended Holy Cross, not SVS or STS. They are free, of course, to attend any school they wish - but not as scholarshiped students in the Antiochian Archdiocese. And yes, Holy Cross will accept the young men. What is the alternative for them? Deny them a seminary education in the Orthodox tradition altogether?)
Another big question is how these students can suddenly, three weeks before the fall term, be admitted to Holy Cross? Is the Greek Archdiocese wading into this pool of madness and supporting Philip?!!
(Editor's note: The Archbishop made it clear that if the seminarians wanted scholarships or recognition from the Archdiocese these would only be available if they attended Holy Cross, not SVS or STS. They are free, of course, to attend any school they wish - but not as scholarshiped students in the Antiochian Archdiocese. And yes, Holy Cross will accept the young men. What is the alternative for them? Deny them a seminary education in the Orthodox tradition altogether?)
#35
Stu Harris
on
2009-08-14 18:07
Someone tried to tell me a day or so ago that +Philip had yanked the Antiochian seminarians from St Vlad's, and I dismissd the idea! He wouldn't do that. That would just prove true every (negative) thing said about him on this website and everywhere else. Shows what I know!
Met Philip has again revealed himself .... God have mercy on him, and all those who suffer under his pastorate.
And to those like Fr George Washburn who wonder why people with a view contrary to those of +Philip post anonymously, are you starting to get it *now*???
Met Philip has again revealed himself .... God have mercy on him, and all those who suffer under his pastorate.
And to those like Fr George Washburn who wonder why people with a view contrary to those of +Philip post anonymously, are you starting to get it *now*???
#36
Anonymously sad about it all
on
2009-08-14 18:56
I can't help but worry thinking of the sycophants wanting to please Henry II when he complained, "Will no one rid me of this turbulent priest?" You aren't Thomas Beckett but +Phillip is sounding more and more like Henry II. Be careful/
#37
Reader Nicholas Bailey
on
2009-08-14 19:08
Old men who care more about their power or legacy in their later years should be forced to retire. Some get sweeter with age. We need to pray and help those who this man and his cronies are willing to hurt for their own purposes. +MP is clearly vindictive -- this is not a sign of holiness. Lord have mercy on him, his cronies, their victims, and us all.
#38
MichaelPatrick
on
2009-08-14 19:16
Can we start a fund to support these seminarians who are being displaced, allowing them to attend at the schools where they matriculated?
#39
MichaelPatrick
on
2009-08-14 19:21
In shock by this latest travess of Church Life according to our Despot! Can we dare print, Mark, that the Vice President of the St Vladimir's Seminary Board has NEVER attended a meeting since the Fr Joseph Allen debacle ?
This a FACT and many know it! Can you imagine being an Officer of a local PTA and never attending yet elected time and time again as an Officer!
Only wonder if I see this TRUE fact in OCAnews! The only thing we have to fear is fear itself ? Don't be fearful and none of this would EVER be known (except by hearsay) were it not for OCA news and many, many know it!
(Editor's note: Would someone from the SVS Board or Administration care to comment on this allegation? If it is true, he has been unable to attend a meeting for a decade or more? Interesting.)
This a FACT and many know it! Can you imagine being an Officer of a local PTA and never attending yet elected time and time again as an Officer!
Only wonder if I see this TRUE fact in OCAnews! The only thing we have to fear is fear itself ? Don't be fearful and none of this would EVER be known (except by hearsay) were it not for OCA news and many, many know it!
(Editor's note: Would someone from the SVS Board or Administration care to comment on this allegation? If it is true, he has been unable to attend a meeting for a decade or more? Interesting.)
#40
Anonymous Priest & Parish
on
2009-08-14 19:29
Tyrant is too good a word. ... If the local Synod or the Synod at Damascus does not get rid of this man, the Archdiocese and Orthodoxy in general will be even deeper problems.
#41
Carl
on
2009-08-14 19:44
And what will MP do next if Mark still doesn't shut down his site, toilet-paper Metropolitan Jonah's house? Goodness, there needs to be a fast, effective way of dealing with bishops when they go off the rails. Untold harm has been done over the centuries by such men. My prayers go out for the vicitms of this old man's infantile tyrade. Shame!
#42
James P.
on
2009-08-14 20:05
It is time the clergy in the Antiochian Diocese and other clergy in support of them do the same thing as the Alaskan
clergy who stood their ground in the case of the tyranny of Soriach.
Mark keep going.
St. Herman lead us out of the poisons of decay in all churches.
God by with the families who need to go out another way to avoid these Herods and Pharoahs dressed us a somethings else.
Matushka Carol
Christmas Monastery.tv
clergy who stood their ground in the case of the tyranny of Soriach.
Mark keep going.
St. Herman lead us out of the poisons of decay in all churches.
God by with the families who need to go out another way to avoid these Herods and Pharoahs dressed us a somethings else.
Matushka Carol
Christmas Monastery.tv
The Bible, the Book of the Church, tells all Christians: "Dear friends, never take revenge; leave that to the righteous anger of God, for the Scriptures say, 'I will take revenge, I will pay them back,' says the Lord" (Romans 12:19). And it tells bishops and presbyters: "Fathers, do not embitter your children, or they will become discouraged" (Colossians 3:21). Metropolitan Philip's failure to put these words into practice, by engaging in vindictiveness over an ego brusied by open, honest inquiry easily answered by words of explanation rather than bullying innocent third parties, is unbecoming to a bishop. Even when maligned and persecuted, truly innocent people have nothing to fear from open, honest inquiry, as the truth will bear them out -- take Saint Nectarius of Aegina and his bishopric as an example. But bullying, blackmail and vindictiveness in a bishop only breed atheism. How is someone supposed to see and believe in Jesus Christ when those who are supposed to be his icons behave in such an un-Christlike manner? And we wonder why the Church is shrinking and the world is becoming so "post-Christian"?
#44
Gregory
on
2009-08-14 22:04
I think calling Phillip a tyrant is a touch to far. He seems to me a person who is easily offended and takes all disagreeing views and direct confrontation personally. He has a great amount of good for orthodoxy in NA and yet these actions these continuous, self destructive actions ruin his reputation.
For the second time SVS is harmed for the actions of one. Whether you are right or not, the way you handle the situation is completely wrong and divisive.
For the sake of your church, Phillip+ please retire and take to a ministry other than metropolitan's office, it is time to move on before people remember you as senile. There is still time while before history remembers you disfavorably.
For the second time SVS is harmed for the actions of one. Whether you are right or not, the way you handle the situation is completely wrong and divisive.
For the sake of your church, Phillip+ please retire and take to a ministry other than metropolitan's office, it is time to move on before people remember you as senile. There is still time while before history remembers you disfavorably.
#45
Reader Michael
on
2009-08-14 22:54
Anaxios! I used to really admire Metropolitan Philip because of his concern for evangelization, something which the Orthodox Churches got behind on for awhile. And of course his championing of Orthodox unity was inspiring to many.
It is clear that Metropolitan Philip has painted himself and the archdiocese into a corner. When he dies, things will get very, very nasty, I fear. And then, the vaunted unity of the AOCA will vanish completely.
....'
Metropolitan Philip seems to be the type that would ruin the reputations of seminarians who seek to transfer to another jurisdiction. Their situation is immensly difficult. I pray for them.
It is clear that Metropolitan Philip has painted himself and the archdiocese into a corner. When he dies, things will get very, very nasty, I fear. And then, the vaunted unity of the AOCA will vanish completely.
....'
Metropolitan Philip seems to be the type that would ruin the reputations of seminarians who seek to transfer to another jurisdiction. Their situation is immensly difficult. I pray for them.
#46
Ex aedibus
on
2009-08-14 23:35
I hope the freshmen are looking hard at their first taste of education to be clergy in the service of Philip. Further sessions of Philippian Orthodoxy to be absorbed at the "House of Studies". And they must know by now how many times to interrupt His remarks with applause? A little history might enlighten those being forced to uproot and move at a moment's notice, especially if there's a health issue. Some years ago at Ben Lomond, Fr. David Anderson got one of those calls. He was to move across the country to a new parish, in his case with a bedridden mother needing constant care along for the ride. When he objected Antoun rebuked him saying nothing was more important than the Church. Now we have philip and Antoun, Rome has Anderson. Who won that round?
Get ready; sooner or later the phone will ring.
I hope the Antiochian laity are appreciating what this means. Among other things, recall that English is not a high priority in the chapel at HC. That means the seminarians you (NOT Philip!) are paying to educate will have little idea as to what goes on liturgically during their education there. How often do you see your priest...About an hour on Sunday? The main event of worship has just been undermined for a whole class of seminarians, and you, by Philip. You need to let him know how much you like it. About this time I hope the young men and their families are realizing this might not be such a good deal after all. Philip (That is, the laity) may be paying the tuition now, but what price will the seminarians pay later? Or have they just learned and digested the first lesson: Go along and get along. If not yet, wait a few weeks. You will (you WILL) meet up with and approve of Joe Allen at the HOS. It was the Allen affair that sparked the last tantrum of Philip that had him yanking seminarians around. How much longer does this clown get tolerated?
Get ready; sooner or later the phone will ring.
I hope the Antiochian laity are appreciating what this means. Among other things, recall that English is not a high priority in the chapel at HC. That means the seminarians you (NOT Philip!) are paying to educate will have little idea as to what goes on liturgically during their education there. How often do you see your priest...About an hour on Sunday? The main event of worship has just been undermined for a whole class of seminarians, and you, by Philip. You need to let him know how much you like it. About this time I hope the young men and their families are realizing this might not be such a good deal after all. Philip (That is, the laity) may be paying the tuition now, but what price will the seminarians pay later? Or have they just learned and digested the first lesson: Go along and get along. If not yet, wait a few weeks. You will (you WILL) meet up with and approve of Joe Allen at the HOS. It was the Allen affair that sparked the last tantrum of Philip that had him yanking seminarians around. How much longer does this clown get tolerated?
#47
ba'ab
on
2009-08-14 23:45
I can't believe Fr. Garklavs, Fr. Kiskhovsky, and Metropolitan Jonah were willing to comply with Phillip's marching orders. Seriously?
Regardless of their "fiduciary responsibilities" (which, coincidentally, are tread upon far too often when convenient) they actually called you up and asked you for your "voluntary cooperation."
Does anyone else find that behavior just as disappointing as Phillip's, or is it just me?
Of course, we could be missing something. I'd love to see them post their side of the story here. But will we ever? No.
Regardless of their "fiduciary responsibilities" (which, coincidentally, are tread upon far too often when convenient) they actually called you up and asked you for your "voluntary cooperation."
Does anyone else find that behavior just as disappointing as Phillip's, or is it just me?
Of course, we could be missing something. I'd love to see them post their side of the story here. But will we ever? No.
#48
Rdr. Nilus
on
2009-08-15 05:10
It is time for the Holy Synod of the Antiochian Church to take constructive measures with His Beatitude to have MP retire. If this was done in any other institution, the person would have been fired. Since this is a church, MP should be forced to prostrate 1000 times in front of these students & beg for their forgiveness.
When these seminarians are priests, they will be sooooo proud of their "fearless" leader.
Metropolitan Philip - SHAME ON YOU!
When these seminarians are priests, they will be sooooo proud of their "fearless" leader.
Metropolitan Philip - SHAME ON YOU!
#49
Todd Petratis
on
2009-08-15 06:21
Met. Phillip is NOT an image of Christ among us. He is doing much harm to the Orhtodox church in this country just like the former OCA leaders. From what I have read and heard, he appears to be a power hungry despot. If ill tempered, self centered, and downright rude behavior were Christian values...then he'd be right for the job. Thankfully they are not and he really needs to go before his un-Christian behavior mars ALL Orthodox Christians in America.
Scott
Scott
#50
Scott Yonkin
on
2009-08-15 07:02
A lot less heirachical shenanigans? In the GOAA? The same Archdiocese that told the world converts are what's wrong with Orthodoxy in America? LOL! Trust me, as a member of the GOAA, just because our dirty laundry hasn't been hung out for the world to see yet, doesn't mean our laundry is any cleaner than anyone elses. I don't have a solution for these seminarians, but attending HCHC probably ain't it.
#51
Chuck Shingledecker
on
2009-08-15 08:21
This news is sick! And I mean SICK! What the hell is going on in our Church today? Political squabbles are one thing, of which I find sickening in itself, but pulling seminarians is whole another thing altogether. That sad thing is I don't think +MP is working alone in all this. Someone mentioned Saruman and Wormtongue, however it appears to me that +MP is Wormtongue to someone "higher" here. I find it hard to believe that the "Old World" Churches are positioning the E.P. as a pseudo-Pope, while in the country +MP now demands his seminarians attend HCHC, which BTW is under the E.P.
This is disgusting, and trying to blame Mark and this website for all his woes....THANK GOD for this website and thank God for the internet. These people are just irked that in our modern age information can be spread world wide in a matter of hours. Many in our Chuch would be much more comfortable in the "good old days" when people simply had to take the Church's word for everything "on faith"....
all I can say is THANK YOU to Mark for this website, for keeping all of us informed as to what is going on in the Church today. Don't give up and I will pass the word to friends to pray for you to have courage and not succumb to pressure which I'm sure will not be far behind.
In Christ
This is disgusting, and trying to blame Mark and this website for all his woes....THANK GOD for this website and thank God for the internet. These people are just irked that in our modern age information can be spread world wide in a matter of hours. Many in our Chuch would be much more comfortable in the "good old days" when people simply had to take the Church's word for everything "on faith"....
all I can say is THANK YOU to Mark for this website, for keeping all of us informed as to what is going on in the Church today. Don't give up and I will pass the word to friends to pray for you to have courage and not succumb to pressure which I'm sure will not be far behind.
In Christ
#52
Chuck Shingledecker
on
2009-08-15 08:30
As balanced voices that moderate like Charles Ajalat's have been sent away, look for public relations cow-pies like these to happen more often.
I ask you: would a married man ever, ever, ever dream of ordering a young family to move to a totally new town in the last month of a woman's pregnancy?
What we see here is a derangement of Christian sensitivities.
Also empty-nester married priests to serve as bishops, or we die. It is that plain.
I ask you: would a married man ever, ever, ever dream of ordering a young family to move to a totally new town in the last month of a woman's pregnancy?
What we see here is a derangement of Christian sensitivities.
Also empty-nester married priests to serve as bishops, or we die. It is that plain.
#53
Harry Coin
on
2009-08-15 08:54
I have been watching this unfold with mounting concern but as a new convert have refrained from commenting.
This, however, takes the cake. Punishing a loyal young family devoted to the Church because of Mr. Stokoe's largely accurate blogging is active and misdirected cruelty. Some of the other strange doings we read of are equally distressing.
The money-changers cannot remain in the Temple forever.
This, however, takes the cake. Punishing a loyal young family devoted to the Church because of Mr. Stokoe's largely accurate blogging is active and misdirected cruelty. Some of the other strange doings we read of are equally distressing.
The money-changers cannot remain in the Temple forever.
Lord Have Mercy!!! Has Met. Philip gone into the hostage-taking business??? There is an adage about Met. Philip's behaviour: "When in doubt, take a hostage". Patriarch Ignatius IV Chancellery should be flooded with calls, emails, petitions by every living Antiochian in America calling for his removal.
#55
Vladimir Bogoljubov
on
2009-08-15 10:26
This is it. I've had it. From here on, ALL my financial contributions will include a note stipulating that they are to be used for my parish ONLY.
If +MP wants to play the tyrant, he'll have to do so one someone else's dime.
If +MP wants to play the tyrant, he'll have to do so one someone else's dime.
#56
Edmund
on
2009-08-15 10:26
Mark, Thank you so much for your dedication to shining the light. Keep on keeping on.
#57
Anonymous
on
2009-08-15 10:58
But, Mark, didn't they themselves request that you stop publishing? I mean, it is one thing to say, "FYI, Met. Philip demands that you stop publishing, or else. Would you inform us as to your decision?" But it is another to say, "Met. Philip has a gun to our heads. Please just do whatever he wants, okay?"
I understand fiduciary responsibility — that's the first case — but the second case indicates total disagreement with the principles you and others stood by to bring the OCA through its crisis. They are entitled to such an opinion, but I find it disappointing.
Furthermore, I suppose that given your various roles you are used to interacting with top administrators. Still, a phone call from several of the head people at Syosset, including the Metropolitan, seems like an attempt to put the pressure on. Why else a call from all three?
All this seems implicit in the article. If it is not what you intended to convey, you might wish to revise your phrasing.
At least the matter of ecclesiastical discipline never came up — but, then, that is Apb. Job's exclusive prerogative, is it not? I wonder: did Met. Philip twist the Archbishop's arm as well — or does he not realize that some Churches really do have dioceses?
I understand fiduciary responsibility — that's the first case — but the second case indicates total disagreement with the principles you and others stood by to bring the OCA through its crisis. They are entitled to such an opinion, but I find it disappointing.
Furthermore, I suppose that given your various roles you are used to interacting with top administrators. Still, a phone call from several of the head people at Syosset, including the Metropolitan, seems like an attempt to put the pressure on. Why else a call from all three?
All this seems implicit in the article. If it is not what you intended to convey, you might wish to revise your phrasing.
At least the matter of ecclesiastical discipline never came up — but, then, that is Apb. Job's exclusive prerogative, is it not? I wonder: did Met. Philip twist the Archbishop's arm as well — or does he not realize that some Churches really do have dioceses?
#58
A Fellow Orthodox Christian
on
2009-08-15 11:04
"He doesn't seem to understand or relate to the real world"
Unfortunately, this describes a very large swathe of Orthodox America, I think Fr. Schmemann pointed this out in his journals...
Unfortunately, this describes a very large swathe of Orthodox America, I think Fr. Schmemann pointed this out in his journals...
#59
Moses
on
2009-08-15 12:02
The fact that you aknowledged that comment is enough to have me convinced Mark.
#60
Wow
on
2009-08-15 12:57
Is it too much to hope that Bishop +Thomas has at least asked the question, "Why, Your Eminence, are you punishing my seminarian, his pregnant wife, and their one-year old child for the actions of an OCA layman?" and that the bishops of the dioceses from which the two seminarians who had been making plans to attend St. Tikhon's have asked the corresponding question.
The fact that this action punishes our seminarians and their families much more harshly than it does the OCA, and harms them immeasurably more than it does the editor of this news service, suggests that Met. +Philip is so insulated from the life of the faithful and the clergy of the Archdiocese that he has become incapable of providing effective archpastoral care, not through sinfulness--though many have argued on this board that this, too, is the case--but through brute ignorance of the lives and circumstances of the ordinary clergy and faithful, in this case seminarians and their families.
The "our Father and" before the word Metropolitan rings hollow when our primate is commemorated at the Liturgy. A father knows and cares for his children.
The fact that this action punishes our seminarians and their families much more harshly than it does the OCA, and harms them immeasurably more than it does the editor of this news service, suggests that Met. +Philip is so insulated from the life of the faithful and the clergy of the Archdiocese that he has become incapable of providing effective archpastoral care, not through sinfulness--though many have argued on this board that this, too, is the case--but through brute ignorance of the lives and circumstances of the ordinary clergy and faithful, in this case seminarians and their families.
The "our Father and" before the word Metropolitan rings hollow when our primate is commemorated at the Liturgy. A father knows and cares for his children.
#61
Subdeacon David [Yetter]
on
2009-08-15 14:19
Not to gainsay in anyway what you said, but if +Philip pays the seminary bills, perhaps that is what he can hold over seminarians heads.
In any case, the man is delusional and out of touch of American cultural reality. North America is not Arabia felix.
In any case, the man is delusional and out of touch of American cultural reality. North America is not Arabia felix.
#62
Terry C. Peet
on
2009-08-15 16:40
Mark,
Do not loose your temerity, I was in the last "transfer" from Vlads and there is nothing new here just same old same old.
At baptism you know that we are all called to be Priest, Prophet and Kings in Christ, so you didn't get ordained...I think you are falling into the next vocation. A prophet tells the King the truth and usually looses his head after the telling. I would not be surprised if you soon received a letter from our new ambulance chaser (chancellor) citing slander or some sort of nonsense. Perhaps that is why Charles resigned, either way do not loose heart, and if you need an attorney I know two ex-chancellors that are available. lol!
Do not loose your temerity, I was in the last "transfer" from Vlads and there is nothing new here just same old same old.
At baptism you know that we are all called to be Priest, Prophet and Kings in Christ, so you didn't get ordained...I think you are falling into the next vocation. A prophet tells the King the truth and usually looses his head after the telling. I would not be surprised if you soon received a letter from our new ambulance chaser (chancellor) citing slander or some sort of nonsense. Perhaps that is why Charles resigned, either way do not loose heart, and if you need an attorney I know two ex-chancellors that are available. lol!
#63
Delegate #1
on
2009-08-15 18:12
Mark wrote, "The Administration was relaying the message they were asked to relay, out of concern for the schools, to which the Metropolitan has a fiduciary responsibility as their President. I have often said, "Don't blame the messenger." I don't, nor should others. The responsible party here sits in Englewood, not Syosset."
Yet Mark also wrote in the news piece, "Out of concern for the two schools - of which Metropolitan Jonah is the President - they asked for Stokoe’s voluntary cooperation to resolve the problem."
Ergo, it still seems to me that the administration did more than simply relay Met. Philip's message.
Yet Mark also wrote in the news piece, "Out of concern for the two schools - of which Metropolitan Jonah is the President - they asked for Stokoe’s voluntary cooperation to resolve the problem."
Ergo, it still seems to me that the administration did more than simply relay Met. Philip's message.
Does the metropolitan have the power to do this without the Synod? How much control does Metropolitan Philip have over how the archdiocese spends its funds? If this were a comparable decision in the OCA, wouldn't it need to come from the Synod and not Metropolitan Jonah?
#65
Benjamin Ignatius
on
2009-08-15 18:27
Be asswured the Greek Seminary and their Dean will do nothing! This has happened before with the Joe (Twice Married) Allen mess. All THREE seminaries have draped Hon. Doctorates on the Met. All politics for crossing our Despot. The Convention a self-abasing spectacle. No humility in evidence only power, wealth and a vacation resort to camaflogue the meetings.
As along as He is in power we will find easily accessible excuses to miss Chicago 2011! Indeed, Anaxios !!
As along as He is in power we will find easily accessible excuses to miss Chicago 2011! Indeed, Anaxios !!
#66
Anonymous Clergy (Two)
on
2009-08-15 18:29
To a few of us who were at SVS during the Joe Allen Affair, the wisdom of Fr Paul Tarazi might stand out: "THERE'S NOTHING NEW UNDER THE SUN." This is a very strikingly familiar tune, but the verse has changed. As a word of admoniition to those who would be vociferous in their cries; 1) Joe Allen in still a functioning priest; The classes sent to Holy Cross didn't return to SVS, the clergy who were suspended were not released for a couple of years.
It this turn of events in itself shocking? I hope so! Does it come as a surprise or could it have been anticipated? Only an ignorant blind person would be totally taken by surprise.
It this turn of events in itself shocking? I hope so! Does it come as a surprise or could it have been anticipated? Only an ignorant blind person would be totally taken by surprise.
#67
Anonymous Observer
on
2009-08-15 21:13
I would say that Metropolitan Philip has crossed the line, but he crossed the line a long time ago. This is simply the expected behavior once he got past the Archdiocesan Convention. Don't expect him to do anything different until he is brought to heal by higher powers or outside forces. I would not even be surprised if this was simply the prelude to Act 2 in the power grab. He's not done yet.
Please take a look at the most recent posting on my site.
-Jon
Please take a look at the most recent posting on my site.
-Jon
Hey Stookie: this posted at
http://ochlophobist.blogspot.com
+
14 August 2009
the AOANA latest - joseph allen affair tactics revisited, or, the times they aren't a changin'
It just keeps getting better and better, or worse and worse, depending upon one's mood.
Steve Mathewes, son of our most widely published Khouria, FM-G, has posted this on his Facebook page:
At the request of Met. PHILIP (the head of the Antiochian Orthodox Church in America), I am being sent to Holy Cross Seminary in Boston instead of St. Vladimir's in NY where we have already moved. And Jo is still ready to give birth any day. It's crazy and stressful, but we are making it work with the help of friends and family. Lord, grant me the patience, love and humility to get through this.
I cannot imagine being in this poor man's situation. I cannot imagine being in FM-G's situation either, knowing that a tyrant's hubris is interfering with something actually important and good - the birth of a grandbaby. I can imagine what my own mother would do if a corrupt, grasping hierarch were to interfere with the peace and well being of one of her soon to be among us grandchildren, and let's just say Mom's involvement would take care of many of the AOANA problems real quicklike, but then again she is an ex Navy nurse with the sort of maternal instincts that take care of threats to families in a manner that corresponds more to the whip side of Christ-like behavior.
This is an outline of the situation as best as I can make of it at the moment:
Metropolitan +Philip has been threatening the OCA with regard to the activities of Mark Stokoe.
Apparently +Philip thinks that ocanews.org is in some way connected to the OCA, or, at the very least, that the OCA has some means of control with regard to Mark Stokoe (I believe the popular pronunciation of his name is now "Stookey").
Indeed, there is supposedly talk from the highest levels in Englewood of a "liberal wing of the OCA conspiracy" against the AOANA. If it were not for the fact that innocent people are being hurt, I would find this very funny, because as anyone who knows anything about American Orthodoxy knows, if there were going to be a conspiracy against the AOANA from a "wing" of the OCA, it would be the conservative wing, not the liberal wing, but all that is beside the point, because if there are coherent "wings" in the OCA they are just learning to flap again after their own nightmare, and the notion that there is an OCA conspiracy against the AOANA is patently ridiculous. The OCA is still working hard to not self-destruct on its own.
+Philip has apparently met with +Jonah and asked about / insisted upon a hushing. +Philip threatened to pull AOANA seminarians out of OCA seminaries.
Syosset contacted Stokoe in May and relayed the threat. He was encouraged to cease publishing info concerning AOANA affairs, in order that action not be taken against SVS, STS, and the OCA. Stokoe reminded Syosset how Christians should respond to threats of blackmail and vengeance. It was suggested that Stokoe could be removed from the Metropolitan Council, at which point Stokoe reminded Syosset of how the whole Gregg Nescott affair played out. The discussion ended.
Apparently, AOANA officials have also been in contact with Fr. Chad Hatfield and Fr. John Behr of SVS, and Frs. Chad and John again, unsuccessfully, tried to inform a certain hierarch that they have no control over what Mark Stokoe writes on his website.
Thus, this week it was announced that all incoming AOANA M.Div. students at STS and SVS would be transferred to Holy Cross. This is in response to the supposed OCA complicity with the Stookey figure.
One hardly knows where to begin. +Philip has pulled this move before, when after the Joseph Allen affair he pulled all seminarians out of SVS.
One wonders why he did not pull all the seminarians out of the OCA sems, unless it was thought too complicated a move this close to the Fall semester. Perhaps that move is coming later on.
This particular move on the Met's part begs, again, the question of whether or not we have a real Synod. I understand that it is the Archdiocese who pays for the seminarian's education. Of course it is, the Archdiocese owns everything and pays for everything - the local dioceses do not have independent financial structures. +Philip and the Archdiocese, as far as tax documents are concerned, are the same entity. But from an Orthodox point of view, shouldn't the Synod as a whole decide where seminarians are headed, and shouldn't the local bishop be able to make the decision where his local seminarians attend seminary? It is right that a Metropolitan could unilaterally decide where another bishop's seminarians attend seminary?
This also highlights, yet again, how much the AOANA cares about the needs and concerns of women. While I do not suppose there is a huge number of incoming AOANA M.Div. students at the two sems, I suppose that most of them have spouses and some have children, and that moving and housing arrangements have already been made. In the case of the poor family mentioned above, the family already had moved, a baby is about to come, but this does not matter in comparison to a Metropolitan's will to exert control measures - no matter how futile those measures are. How in keeping with the Dormition fast to uproot families who are trying to give their lives in service to God, including a family about to welcome a baby, at the last minute, right before the Feast?
Ocanews.org is not going away. Other voices critical of the mafia control of the Archdiocese and the cult which supports it are not going to go away. Take Mark out of the equation, take an ochlophobist out of the equation, and there are ten more Orthodox folks who have had enough willing to fill in the ranks.
On a final note, allow me to say that while I cannot speak for anyone else involved in the public debate concerning these scandals, it is perhaps time that I say some things regarding myself. This week strange men came to my house asking strange questions of me, after doing some strange things in front of my yard with a tape recorder and pen and paper and then walking, quickly, in an odd route (I had them followed) where they were picked up by an odd vehicle - these were certainly not the usual casers we get in the neighborhood (I may post more concerning this event and other strange things that have happened to other folks who have criticized +Philip next week, as God allows). The local police were notified of this. My name is Owen White. I attend the Antiochian parish in Memphis, TN, a fact which is, I am sure, known by all who wish to know it by now. I am not, contrary to certain rumors, an internet pseudonym for Fr. Oliver Herbel. He is my godfather and my close friend. I live in a house that is now surely worth less than 100K. I lost my manufacturing job last year and am now a student trying to get into nursing school. My wife works for a local group of psychologists and mostly does billing for them. We have three small children, who are cared for at our home. We have little debt, and very little assets, and live what most people would think of as an irritatingly frugal life. I do not go to casinos or expensive resorts. I have a police record - the only times I have been arrested have been at pro-life rescues, where I was arrested with others for locking myself to an abortion clinic in order to prevent murder. On one of those occasions I (along with others) was beaten before the arrest by members of various pro-choice factions while the police watched. My father has also been beaten, and arrested, numerous times, also, always, for matters of conscience. My brother, a police officer, lives 2 blocks away from me, is abreast of the situation at hand, and watches over my family earnestly, something he has always done. I have heard the stories of the woman who asked too many questions of +Philip and had her house ransacked later. I suppose that most of us who dissent from the cult of +Philip have heard that story. My house is usually a disaster area with three small children under foot, so I would be interested to know what some ransackers could do with it. Anything anyone wants of me, well, they can come and take it. I have no abiding city and I do not trust in chariots. Belittle, threaten, excommunicate, steal, create some bureaucratic nonsense, kill. Do what you will. But one last thing, I have Welsh blood in me, and this ain't rural Syria. I come from a long, long line of people who are most comfortable with heels firmly dug.
There will be more details concerning this development regarding the seminarians on ocanews.org later today (here it is now). And there are some other, even more obscene, developments which will be brought to the light next week, as God allows.
ANAXIOS!
+
http://ochlophobist.blogspot.com
+
14 August 2009
the AOANA latest - joseph allen affair tactics revisited, or, the times they aren't a changin'
It just keeps getting better and better, or worse and worse, depending upon one's mood.
Steve Mathewes, son of our most widely published Khouria, FM-G, has posted this on his Facebook page:
At the request of Met. PHILIP (the head of the Antiochian Orthodox Church in America), I am being sent to Holy Cross Seminary in Boston instead of St. Vladimir's in NY where we have already moved. And Jo is still ready to give birth any day. It's crazy and stressful, but we are making it work with the help of friends and family. Lord, grant me the patience, love and humility to get through this.
I cannot imagine being in this poor man's situation. I cannot imagine being in FM-G's situation either, knowing that a tyrant's hubris is interfering with something actually important and good - the birth of a grandbaby. I can imagine what my own mother would do if a corrupt, grasping hierarch were to interfere with the peace and well being of one of her soon to be among us grandchildren, and let's just say Mom's involvement would take care of many of the AOANA problems real quicklike, but then again she is an ex Navy nurse with the sort of maternal instincts that take care of threats to families in a manner that corresponds more to the whip side of Christ-like behavior.
This is an outline of the situation as best as I can make of it at the moment:
Metropolitan +Philip has been threatening the OCA with regard to the activities of Mark Stokoe.
Apparently +Philip thinks that ocanews.org is in some way connected to the OCA, or, at the very least, that the OCA has some means of control with regard to Mark Stokoe (I believe the popular pronunciation of his name is now "Stookey").
Indeed, there is supposedly talk from the highest levels in Englewood of a "liberal wing of the OCA conspiracy" against the AOANA. If it were not for the fact that innocent people are being hurt, I would find this very funny, because as anyone who knows anything about American Orthodoxy knows, if there were going to be a conspiracy against the AOANA from a "wing" of the OCA, it would be the conservative wing, not the liberal wing, but all that is beside the point, because if there are coherent "wings" in the OCA they are just learning to flap again after their own nightmare, and the notion that there is an OCA conspiracy against the AOANA is patently ridiculous. The OCA is still working hard to not self-destruct on its own.
+Philip has apparently met with +Jonah and asked about / insisted upon a hushing. +Philip threatened to pull AOANA seminarians out of OCA seminaries.
Syosset contacted Stokoe in May and relayed the threat. He was encouraged to cease publishing info concerning AOANA affairs, in order that action not be taken against SVS, STS, and the OCA. Stokoe reminded Syosset how Christians should respond to threats of blackmail and vengeance. It was suggested that Stokoe could be removed from the Metropolitan Council, at which point Stokoe reminded Syosset of how the whole Gregg Nescott affair played out. The discussion ended.
Apparently, AOANA officials have also been in contact with Fr. Chad Hatfield and Fr. John Behr of SVS, and Frs. Chad and John again, unsuccessfully, tried to inform a certain hierarch that they have no control over what Mark Stokoe writes on his website.
Thus, this week it was announced that all incoming AOANA M.Div. students at STS and SVS would be transferred to Holy Cross. This is in response to the supposed OCA complicity with the Stookey figure.
One hardly knows where to begin. +Philip has pulled this move before, when after the Joseph Allen affair he pulled all seminarians out of SVS.
One wonders why he did not pull all the seminarians out of the OCA sems, unless it was thought too complicated a move this close to the Fall semester. Perhaps that move is coming later on.
This particular move on the Met's part begs, again, the question of whether or not we have a real Synod. I understand that it is the Archdiocese who pays for the seminarian's education. Of course it is, the Archdiocese owns everything and pays for everything - the local dioceses do not have independent financial structures. +Philip and the Archdiocese, as far as tax documents are concerned, are the same entity. But from an Orthodox point of view, shouldn't the Synod as a whole decide where seminarians are headed, and shouldn't the local bishop be able to make the decision where his local seminarians attend seminary? It is right that a Metropolitan could unilaterally decide where another bishop's seminarians attend seminary?
This also highlights, yet again, how much the AOANA cares about the needs and concerns of women. While I do not suppose there is a huge number of incoming AOANA M.Div. students at the two sems, I suppose that most of them have spouses and some have children, and that moving and housing arrangements have already been made. In the case of the poor family mentioned above, the family already had moved, a baby is about to come, but this does not matter in comparison to a Metropolitan's will to exert control measures - no matter how futile those measures are. How in keeping with the Dormition fast to uproot families who are trying to give their lives in service to God, including a family about to welcome a baby, at the last minute, right before the Feast?
Ocanews.org is not going away. Other voices critical of the mafia control of the Archdiocese and the cult which supports it are not going to go away. Take Mark out of the equation, take an ochlophobist out of the equation, and there are ten more Orthodox folks who have had enough willing to fill in the ranks.
On a final note, allow me to say that while I cannot speak for anyone else involved in the public debate concerning these scandals, it is perhaps time that I say some things regarding myself. This week strange men came to my house asking strange questions of me, after doing some strange things in front of my yard with a tape recorder and pen and paper and then walking, quickly, in an odd route (I had them followed) where they were picked up by an odd vehicle - these were certainly not the usual casers we get in the neighborhood (I may post more concerning this event and other strange things that have happened to other folks who have criticized +Philip next week, as God allows). The local police were notified of this. My name is Owen White. I attend the Antiochian parish in Memphis, TN, a fact which is, I am sure, known by all who wish to know it by now. I am not, contrary to certain rumors, an internet pseudonym for Fr. Oliver Herbel. He is my godfather and my close friend. I live in a house that is now surely worth less than 100K. I lost my manufacturing job last year and am now a student trying to get into nursing school. My wife works for a local group of psychologists and mostly does billing for them. We have three small children, who are cared for at our home. We have little debt, and very little assets, and live what most people would think of as an irritatingly frugal life. I do not go to casinos or expensive resorts. I have a police record - the only times I have been arrested have been at pro-life rescues, where I was arrested with others for locking myself to an abortion clinic in order to prevent murder. On one of those occasions I (along with others) was beaten before the arrest by members of various pro-choice factions while the police watched. My father has also been beaten, and arrested, numerous times, also, always, for matters of conscience. My brother, a police officer, lives 2 blocks away from me, is abreast of the situation at hand, and watches over my family earnestly, something he has always done. I have heard the stories of the woman who asked too many questions of +Philip and had her house ransacked later. I suppose that most of us who dissent from the cult of +Philip have heard that story. My house is usually a disaster area with three small children under foot, so I would be interested to know what some ransackers could do with it. Anything anyone wants of me, well, they can come and take it. I have no abiding city and I do not trust in chariots. Belittle, threaten, excommunicate, steal, create some bureaucratic nonsense, kill. Do what you will. But one last thing, I have Welsh blood in me, and this ain't rural Syria. I come from a long, long line of people who are most comfortable with heels firmly dug.
There will be more details concerning this development regarding the seminarians on ocanews.org later today (here it is now). And there are some other, even more obscene, developments which will be brought to the light next week, as God allows.
ANAXIOS!
+
#69
anonymous
on
2009-08-15 23:24
I am a woman and a member of the Antiochian Diocese. I am also a member of a parish founded by former Episcopalians. I thought we had left behind abusive Bishops, but apparently NOT!!
I ask you...is it true that +Phillip is in fact a member of SVS Board of Trustees? And the position he holds on that Board of Trustees is Vice President???
I am a simple woman. I truly believed our Orthodox leaders were true to Christ's teachings. +Phillip truly frightens me... my heart and prayers go out to the victims at SVS and STS.
I ask you...is it true that +Phillip is in fact a member of SVS Board of Trustees? And the position he holds on that Board of Trustees is Vice President???
I am a simple woman. I truly believed our Orthodox leaders were true to Christ's teachings. +Phillip truly frightens me... my heart and prayers go out to the victims at SVS and STS.
#70
Anonymous
on
2009-08-16 04:59
Do I live in a parallel universe? I don't even understand the language of what's going on here. +Phillip wants the OCA to "discipline" Mark Stokoe? What, he wants +Jonah to take him out behind the barn with a razor strap? Is he talking excommunication? On what basis? "And when He had said these things, one of the officers who stood by struck Jesus with the palm of his hand, saying, "Do You answer the high priest like that?" Jesus answered him, "If I have spoken evil, bear witness of the evil; but if well, why do you strike Me?" I do not understand, let me say that again, I do not understand the granting of power and authority to bishops that is completely outside what should be their sphere of influence. This whole thing, in my thinking, is an hilariously absurd demand. That anybody would take it seriously is beyond my comprehension. What makes it less funny and so sad though is his treatment of his own seminarian and the incredible strain he's put on him and his family to just pick up and move at an impossible time. And the seminarian picks up and moves. There is something wrong here. We must hold our bishops accountable for all things in which we grant them authority, not just money matters, but what they do with the lives of those who serve the church. We are not just pawns here, in some bishop's megalomaniacal game of God knows what, even though the actions of many of them (sorry, I do mean many) say otherwise. Talk about another huge can of worms. In my experience, I've learned to give bishops no authority over my personal life to protect myself, my family and my sanity. And that's just plain sad.
#71
Lisa Lowe
on
2009-08-16 08:48
I'd like to encourage all of these young men to petition their local OCA bishop for acceptance as Seminarians under the OCA. They are still free until ordination (then things get sticky). Why would you trust your future to a man who so easily abuses you and your family in the present? If he loved you, he would not do this. He doesn't deserve your loyalty. Through the prayers of the three young men in the fiery furnace!
Many Years to all the good and God loving bishops of Christ in the Americas!
Many Years to all the good and God loving bishops of Christ in the Americas!
#72
Fr. David Subu
on
2009-08-16 10:20
If the GOA has fewer "hierarchical shenanigans," it's only because the metropolitan archbishop and his suffragan metropolitans (why must the Greeks do everything backwards?) aren't allowed to make any real decisions. Instead, a group of elderly men in Istanbul, each of whom is titular head of a flock smaller than that of a typical American parish priest, reserves all important power for itself in a desperate but feeble attempt to maintain a semblance of relevance in the modern world.....
Sic semper tyrannis,
Nemo
Sic semper tyrannis,
Nemo
#73
Nemo
on
2009-08-16 12:34
Actually, Fr Joe Allen has returned to SVS. He made his first formal appearance there back in April, with Fr Elias Bitar, to pass along these threats from the Metropolitan.
#74
An East Coast Priest
on
2009-08-16 13:49
So what are the "newly re-crowned" Bishops doing about this?
They sent public letters when something effected their lives what will they do to defend the innocent now?
They sent public letters when something effected their lives what will they do to defend the innocent now?
Metropolitan PHILIP has not visited the St Vladimir's campus in the past year, not for a meeting of the Board of Trustees (of which he is vice chair, and Met. Jonah the chair) or for any other reason.
#76
little one
on
2009-08-16 16:04
"If HCHC administrators were men, they would refuse these transfers."
For what ourpose, to further punish innocent third parties by denying them ANY hope of a seminary education?
For what ourpose, to further punish innocent third parties by denying them ANY hope of a seminary education?
#77
Anonymous
on
2009-08-16 16:29
If this is a matter of finances and scholarships -- then that money could come from some other avenue -- correct? Have all three students already uprooted themselves or are any just too poor to be able to do that and so are still at STS/SVS?
#78
Curiouser and curiouser
on
2009-08-16 17:44
>>"Does the metropolitan have the power to do this without the Synod?"
You must be new here.
You must be new here.
#79
Curiouser and curiouser
on
2009-08-16 17:48
That is the $64,000 question....do we have a Local synod of Diocesan Bishops, or do we not? If this stands we do not, and God help us.
#80
JPS
on
2009-08-16 17:55
Dear "Ocanews must go,"
It's not that "this site" has "made" Mark more powerful than "the bishops." Rather, some bishops have made themselves less powerful than one layman with a website. How did they do this? By their behavior and by hiding the facts.
If a bishop is open and honest, if he welcomes audits and so on as ways to prove his righteousness and to end scandal — in that case, what can Mark possibly do to him? As we have seen, even if a bishop is guilty of something, he can often entirely disarm critics simply by admitting his guilt and asking forgiveness.
Truth is powerful, and some of our bishops have kicked that power to the curb. Mark just picked it up and put it online. It's theirs to take back — if they choose.
#81
A Fellow Orthodox Christian
on
2009-08-16 18:09
Subtle.
#82
A Fellow Orthodox Christian
on
2009-08-16 18:17
Also, were you threatened with removal from the Metropolitan Council, as The Ochlophobist has reported?
[ http://tinyurl.com/otqq4m ]
If not, you should quickly request a retraction.
(Editor's note: No retraction is necessary.)
[ http://tinyurl.com/otqq4m ]
If not, you should quickly request a retraction.
(Editor's note: No retraction is necessary.)
#83
A Fellow Orthodox Christian
on
2009-08-16 18:22
Apparently, you 'know' far more than I do re: GOAA shenanigans. I, also am a member of the GOAA, and know about some dirty laundry. We have our own Bp Demetry problems too, but they are covered up better.
In fact, I have commented to others that the GOAA has lots of internal problems, but to date do a better job of keeping things quiet.
In fact, I have commented to others that the GOAA has lots of internal problems, but to date do a better job of keeping things quiet.
#84
Yanni
on
2009-08-16 19:28
From what I hear, Bp. Thomas was livid when he heard about this.....what he'll do about it, is another question....
#85
Antionymous
on
2009-08-16 19:52
Tis true....
#86
Antionymous
on
2009-08-16 19:55
Free Speech, Freedom of Religion, Free Press these are some of the rights guaranteed in ourAmerican laws. Bishops who demand seminarians move toanother school with a very pregnant wife is not a loving, caring bishop, as we all know. This is just another example of why in the United States we need a "free church not under the authority of a foreign bishop." Metropolitan Philip in my opinion is a foreign bishop who wants to control the Antiochian Archdiocese and keep it under the Patria. of Antioch'scontrol. Holy Cross, too is under a foreign bishop. Met.Philip pays for male seminarians, not female seminiarns. The laity in the Orthodox Churches in various jurisdictions under foreign hierarchs need to see that there is a real need for a united Orthodox Church in America whose hierarchs are American born and honor the laws in the United States.
#87
anonymous
on
2009-08-16 20:30
I imagine they have objected, privately, and perhaps for quite some time. Publicly, I am not sure there is anything they can usefully do. Allowing complaints to leak would put the public spotlight on the seminarians even more brightly, and would have zero effect on their fates. It's not like the bishops can appeal to Damascus: MP controls the money, period.
Moreover, as Americans, I do not think we want them appealing to Damascus — asking the Patriarchate to step in and order the money of the Archdiocese to be spent in this way or that. It makes a mockery out of self rule: is the Patriarchate to manage the distribution of scholarship money to seminarians?
The issue here is that episcopal authority has been divided, but not the money; so we still have an overall power imbalance. That is something that has to be changed. In particular, as long as all property is in the hands of the Metropolitan, one can hardly speak of diocesans as having final authority in their territories.
In their amorphousness and unpredictability, the "Antiochian Attorneys" seem to have taken on a sort of folkloric status. Wherever and whoever they are, I hope that they are giving some attention to this matter.
Moreover, as Americans, I do not think we want them appealing to Damascus — asking the Patriarchate to step in and order the money of the Archdiocese to be spent in this way or that. It makes a mockery out of self rule: is the Patriarchate to manage the distribution of scholarship money to seminarians?
The issue here is that episcopal authority has been divided, but not the money; so we still have an overall power imbalance. That is something that has to be changed. In particular, as long as all property is in the hands of the Metropolitan, one can hardly speak of diocesans as having final authority in their territories.
In their amorphousness and unpredictability, the "Antiochian Attorneys" seem to have taken on a sort of folkloric status. Wherever and whoever they are, I hope that they are giving some attention to this matter.
#88
A Fellow Orthodox Christian
on
2009-08-16 20:49
"I'm Stokacus!"
(Editor's note: Well, I'm not. I am not a slave, except to Christ; I am not in rebellion to anybody or anything save the opression of sin; I have no intention of sailing away to home: nor of ending up crucified on the way to Rome. I am an Orthodox Christian who will defend the teachings and practices and traditions of his Church to the best of his abilities because it still makes a difference whether we do or not. It should make a difference to everyone, lest we allow these things to pass away in silence ....)
(Editor's note: Well, I'm not. I am not a slave, except to Christ; I am not in rebellion to anybody or anything save the opression of sin; I have no intention of sailing away to home: nor of ending up crucified on the way to Rome. I am an Orthodox Christian who will defend the teachings and practices and traditions of his Church to the best of his abilities because it still makes a difference whether we do or not. It should make a difference to everyone, lest we allow these things to pass away in silence ....)
I sincerely hope Metropolitan Jonah offers those students entrance into the OCA, and aid in paying for their tuition. They do not, at this stage, need a canonical release, so now would be a great time to place themselves under a bishop who does not resort to blackmail. May truth triumph!
#90
Very Rev. Abbot Tryphon
on
2009-08-16 22:03
The Mathewes-Green situation exactly reminded me of Fr David Anderson-- very similar circumstances -- except that Bp "Blackjack" Antoun was the trigger-man on that one. It is utterly stupifying to me that anyone would want to be ordained into this archdiocese under these circumstances. At least these seminarians are getting a lesson in what it means to be a priest in the Antiochian Archdiocese.
#91
Deja-vu all over again
on
2009-08-17 00:34
It is a true FACT that the Met. in all times I was a member of the Seminary Board never once attended any meeting.
A true "chess player", yes, he did come to be honored and dedicated the Auditorium given in his name! With funds given by whom?? We never were told. Some say from some Board of the Ant. Archd members> Others say from the Met's "special reserves" (never noted on ANY financial reports annual or otherwise.
He did come to Fr. Schmemman's funeral and recently came to be an "expert" on Chalcedon 28. But attend a Board meeting of the Sem. never. We know he "encouraged" Charles Ajalat, the late V.Chrmn of the Archd Board, Ernest Saykaly and Fr Geo, Corey (then editor of the WORD) to leave the Board.
He has "used" the Seminary when he has pleased and all know "pure politics" in having some Seminarians graduate from St. Vladimir's. Oh, forgot to mention he came to receive an Honorary Doctorate from a school he attended for less than a year while remaining Pastor of a parish in Cleveland, OH.
All THIS undisputed and knowlledgeable to many. But we cannot blame the Seminary as presurse internal and external have been evident for decades.
The TRUTH shall make all free. God keep OCANews viable for years to come!
A true "chess player", yes, he did come to be honored and dedicated the Auditorium given in his name! With funds given by whom?? We never were told. Some say from some Board of the Ant. Archd members> Others say from the Met's "special reserves" (never noted on ANY financial reports annual or otherwise.
He did come to Fr. Schmemman's funeral and recently came to be an "expert" on Chalcedon 28. But attend a Board meeting of the Sem. never. We know he "encouraged" Charles Ajalat, the late V.Chrmn of the Archd Board, Ernest Saykaly and Fr Geo, Corey (then editor of the WORD) to leave the Board.
He has "used" the Seminary when he has pleased and all know "pure politics" in having some Seminarians graduate from St. Vladimir's. Oh, forgot to mention he came to receive an Honorary Doctorate from a school he attended for less than a year while remaining Pastor of a parish in Cleveland, OH.
All THIS undisputed and knowlledgeable to many. But we cannot blame the Seminary as presurse internal and external have been evident for decades.
The TRUTH shall make all free. God keep OCANews viable for years to come!
#92
Anonymous
on
2009-08-17 00:40
Truly... if there is an effort to fight this, we really need to know where to send the FUNDS....
I can't speak for everyone here, but I will truly try to help in the expenses that have been ripped from these lives. Frankly, I would consider it an investment in the kingdom of God. Please, let us help...
I can't speak for everyone here, but I will truly try to help in the expenses that have been ripped from these lives. Frankly, I would consider it an investment in the kingdom of God. Please, let us help...
#93
Curiouser and curiouser
on
2009-08-17 00:43
This is the time. Will the OCA stand up and be the American Orthodox Church? For the American Church to be, there will be a conflict with the old world -- sort of like this. The people can help in this instance, but only with help from the clergy.
#94
R. Stevenson
on
2009-08-17 01:34
The seminarians obeyed. The consent (or at least acquiescence) of the governed is the source of authority.
Their position is understandable. I wouldn't be able to come up with the money for three years of seminary, either, and there are no doubt many other considerations besides finances--such as a call to serve. I'm also not suggesting that three men at the absolute bottom of the clerical ladder should take on their metropolitan. But as long as he is getting his way, he will have no incentive to change.
Their position is understandable. I wouldn't be able to come up with the money for three years of seminary, either, and there are no doubt many other considerations besides finances--such as a call to serve. I'm also not suggesting that three men at the absolute bottom of the clerical ladder should take on their metropolitan. But as long as he is getting his way, he will have no incentive to change.
#95
Morton
on
2009-08-17 04:51
What, pray tell, was +Jonah supposed to do?
These seminarians were AOCNA and phillip was footing the bill.
These seminarians were AOCNA and phillip was footing the bill.
#96
Steve
on
2009-08-17 06:37
Why would HCHC refusing a transfer doom these people from ever going to seminary? After all the OCA COULD simply offer them their own transfer, and heck even a FREE seminary education. I mean, if they're going to lose the money from these seminarians anyway, what would the OCA have to lose? It's obvious EP loyalists are slowly attempting to erode the OCA's standing, and this is just another sign of such things IMO.
The OCA could say, "well, we're not gonna get your money either way, so we'll transfer you to the OCA, and you can just come to St. Vlad's on "full scholarship!"
Or how about a fund raiser for these seminarians to attend St. Vlad's if indeed the OCA could not give them a free/scholarship education for political or practical reasons? I seriously doubt these young men will be a good fit at HCHC unless they're willing to convert ethnic identities. Besides HCHC costs a WHOLE lot more than St. Tikhon's or St. Vlad's, so in the end who's bearing the brunt of these extra costs? Is +MP going to pay for it, or does he expect the GOAA to simply absorb the difference? (which they could do, but my point is, if the GOAA can, why can't the OCA do the same and offer them full scholarship and transfer to the OCA?) Would that be just "too much" in the manners department? Politically unrealistic? I mean, I just don't get any of this. There is little argument that St. Vlad's the best seminarian in the country, so all of this is +MP's doing just because he doesn't like transperency and open and honest dialogue, and let's face it, free speech?
it's all very frustrating, and I'm sure for these seminarians, it's simply turning everything upside down. Way to get your future priests off to a good start. 'sigh'
The OCA could say, "well, we're not gonna get your money either way, so we'll transfer you to the OCA, and you can just come to St. Vlad's on "full scholarship!"
Or how about a fund raiser for these seminarians to attend St. Vlad's if indeed the OCA could not give them a free/scholarship education for political or practical reasons? I seriously doubt these young men will be a good fit at HCHC unless they're willing to convert ethnic identities. Besides HCHC costs a WHOLE lot more than St. Tikhon's or St. Vlad's, so in the end who's bearing the brunt of these extra costs? Is +MP going to pay for it, or does he expect the GOAA to simply absorb the difference? (which they could do, but my point is, if the GOAA can, why can't the OCA do the same and offer them full scholarship and transfer to the OCA?) Would that be just "too much" in the manners department? Politically unrealistic? I mean, I just don't get any of this. There is little argument that St. Vlad's the best seminarian in the country, so all of this is +MP's doing just because he doesn't like transperency and open and honest dialogue, and let's face it, free speech?
it's all very frustrating, and I'm sure for these seminarians, it's simply turning everything upside down. Way to get your future priests off to a good start. 'sigh'
#97
Chuck Shingledecker
on
2009-08-17 07:19
Worship in the main chapel at Holy Cross is 50% English, and nightly Compline in the small chapel is 100% English, so there is plenty of opportunity to experience the liturgical life of the Church, especially when one is attending multiple services every day for three years.
The Antiochian students will have no trouble learning liturgics, teleturgics and chanting. In addition to the required classes, they are allowed to serve according to the Antiochian tradition and given the head chanter's stand once a week, after which they participate in a weekly class on how to serve in the Antiochian style with a senior Antiochian priest.
They are also blessed to receive three years of instruction in Byzantine music -- something much more practical and fitting for service as a clergyman in the Antiochian Archdiocese than musical education in the Russian styles.
My Antiochian classmates at Holy Cross were and are highly competent chanters, liturgists, pastors and theologians.
The Antiochian students will have no trouble learning liturgics, teleturgics and chanting. In addition to the required classes, they are allowed to serve according to the Antiochian tradition and given the head chanter's stand once a week, after which they participate in a weekly class on how to serve in the Antiochian style with a senior Antiochian priest.
They are also blessed to receive three years of instruction in Byzantine music -- something much more practical and fitting for service as a clergyman in the Antiochian Archdiocese than musical education in the Russian styles.
My Antiochian classmates at Holy Cross were and are highly competent chanters, liturgists, pastors and theologians.
#98
HC Graduate
on
2009-08-17 07:28
Yes, I agree with you on your thoughts.
This whole debacle points to how are are not a united church here in America which remains uncanonical.
One bishop of one jurisdiction decides the fate of three seminarians attending the seminary of another jurisdiction. +Jonah remains powerless or quiet or noncomittal and informally or formally "abdicates" his authority to another bishop of another jurisdication because the seminarians do not belong to his jurisdiction but attend the seminary of his own jurisdiction.
Would the true jurisdiction of the Orthodox Christians stand up?
And this is the problem, because no clerics are solving this problem any time soon.
We have SCOBA, made up of several jurisdictions and thus the question remains unanswered.
The Orthodox Church just continues to flounder in this uncanonical situation where one bishop easily asserts, or usurps, the power of another bishop.
This problem is not Stokoe's, not +Jonah's, not +Philip's, but the lack of resolve from SCOBA and the bishops of the old country to work out the canonicity of what should be one united church in America.
I don't know; a "tyrannical" situation of America being ruled by England did not sit well with the patriots who wanted independence from the old county.
I think our story about Orthodoxy in America is definitely still being written.
Patty Schellbach
This whole debacle points to how are are not a united church here in America which remains uncanonical.
One bishop of one jurisdiction decides the fate of three seminarians attending the seminary of another jurisdiction. +Jonah remains powerless or quiet or noncomittal and informally or formally "abdicates" his authority to another bishop of another jurisdication because the seminarians do not belong to his jurisdiction but attend the seminary of his own jurisdiction.
Would the true jurisdiction of the Orthodox Christians stand up?
And this is the problem, because no clerics are solving this problem any time soon.
We have SCOBA, made up of several jurisdictions and thus the question remains unanswered.
The Orthodox Church just continues to flounder in this uncanonical situation where one bishop easily asserts, or usurps, the power of another bishop.
This problem is not Stokoe's, not +Jonah's, not +Philip's, but the lack of resolve from SCOBA and the bishops of the old country to work out the canonicity of what should be one united church in America.
I don't know; a "tyrannical" situation of America being ruled by England did not sit well with the patriots who wanted independence from the old county.
I think our story about Orthodoxy in America is definitely still being written.
Patty Schellbach
#99
Patty Schellbach
on
2009-08-17 07:48
Agree with Reader Nilus. Mark. A few students were inconvenienced with a politically unfortunate move by the foolish and vindictive action of a bishop. Another SVS student not too long ago committed suicide because of the foolish inattention and cover-up of some other clergy and school administration.
Then there are the many walking wounded over the years who have been abused and humiliated by the unpastoral actions of those who choose denial of problems and isolating and shaming those needing help, rather than pastoring them to wholeness. Shame on all of the so-called shepherds and clergy , not just the ones who scapegoat themselves by their own foolish actions, but to the clever ones who keep quiet and get away clean, smelling like a rose!
Then there are the many walking wounded over the years who have been abused and humiliated by the unpastoral actions of those who choose denial of problems and isolating and shaming those needing help, rather than pastoring them to wholeness. Shame on all of the so-called shepherds and clergy , not just the ones who scapegoat themselves by their own foolish actions, but to the clever ones who keep quiet and get away clean, smelling like a rose!
#100
Ever and anon.
on
2009-08-17 07:56
Learn from this: Dr. John Boojamra was the head of the AOCA's Dept. of Christian Education for many years. He was also a teacher at St. Vladimir's Seminary. He knew Met. Philip, Joe Allen and how the AOCA worked very well. He also disagreed with + Philip's stand on Joe Allen. + Philip did everything he could to marginalize John. John never went public with what + Philip did to him. John came down with a serious illness and died. He was explicit in his wishes and will that Met. Philip, Joe Allen nor anyone from the AOCA archdiocese attend his funeral. And so it was!
#101
Anonymous
on
2009-08-17 07:58
Their behavior was not only disappointing, but disgusting. But then when has there ever been any inclination to stand up to hierarchical bullying and blackmail? Cow towing is a conditioned response expected of all Orthodox Christians when faced with authority--especially the authority of bishops. Only a saintly few of the hierarchy resist the impulse to command it at their whim, thereby mocking the example of their Lord. Their real "Lord" is the autocratic tradition they have inherited from various secular states to which many, if not most, of their predecessors have been more than happy to surrender their souls.
Lord have mercy!
KRT
Lord have mercy!
KRT
#102
Kenneth R. Tobin
on
2009-08-17 08:24
An excellent suggestion! I've done the following and suggest it for any non-Antiochian priests reading this: add the name of Metropolitan Philip to your list of those among the living to be commemorated during the proskemedia and appropriate litanies in the divine services (NB--those in the Antiochian Archdiocese will already be commemorating him as the Primate, if not the local bishop; hence, "non-Antiochian priests").
To paraphrase: "something is rotten in the state of Damascus." It's not my place to say just what, and some things are obvious just on the face of it. But prayer, above all else, is needed for HE +Philip, as well as for the whole Archdiocese. But I am personally fearful for His Eminence and my parish and I together will be offering prayers for the good of his soul.
To paraphrase: "something is rotten in the state of Damascus." It's not my place to say just what, and some things are obvious just on the face of it. But prayer, above all else, is needed for HE +Philip, as well as for the whole Archdiocese. But I am personally fearful for His Eminence and my parish and I together will be offering prayers for the good of his soul.
#103
Fr. Dennis Buck
on
2009-08-17 08:33
Regarding the Antiochian Archdiocese, all of the blood, sweat and tears will be for naught until these dioceses are able to keep their own monies received from their parishes. It is utopian to believe that the Synod will function as a Synod while one of its Bishops controls almost all of the money.
Want to fix this mess? Appeal to the Synod of Antioch to make Bishops Thomas, Alexander, etc Metropolitans with their own purses. This will only steamline the way the Patriarchate is ordered in Lebanon and Syria anyways. Or possibly the diocesan bishops can have their own treasury OCA style, but eventually in view of a future merger of an American Orthodox Church why not make the Antiochian Bishops (and the OCA and other Jurisdictional Bishops for that matter) Metropolitans so as to create a level playing field with the Greeks. Otherwise all of this will continue ad infintitum both within the AOANA, and in North America.
Want to fix this mess? Appeal to the Synod of Antioch to make Bishops Thomas, Alexander, etc Metropolitans with their own purses. This will only steamline the way the Patriarchate is ordered in Lebanon and Syria anyways. Or possibly the diocesan bishops can have their own treasury OCA style, but eventually in view of a future merger of an American Orthodox Church why not make the Antiochian Bishops (and the OCA and other Jurisdictional Bishops for that matter) Metropolitans so as to create a level playing field with the Greeks. Otherwise all of this will continue ad infintitum both within the AOANA, and in North America.
#104
Aristobolus
on
2009-08-17 08:38
9:22AM Pacific time, Aug 17, 2009
I just got off the phone with Bishop Antoun in Englewood. I called to express my dismay at the +MP's action, i.e., using the seminarians as pawns to punish others.
I gave +Antoun my name and diocese. He demanded to know what parish I was from. I told him I did not care to say because I feared reprisals against my priest. I was calm. He quickly became upset, saying he could not trust anyone on the phone, and he again demanded that I tell him my parish. When I refused, upon restating to him the purpose for my call, he hung up.
At no time during the call could I discern any interest in what I might say. The attitude was US vs THEM, and I guess +Antoun found me standing with the enemy. I'm saddened and a bit hurt, but I've resolved to wait these impostors out until holy men can take their thrones. They don't own the church and neither do we. It belongs to our precious Lord and savior. Glory to God for all things!
I just got off the phone with Bishop Antoun in Englewood. I called to express my dismay at the +MP's action, i.e., using the seminarians as pawns to punish others.
I gave +Antoun my name and diocese. He demanded to know what parish I was from. I told him I did not care to say because I feared reprisals against my priest. I was calm. He quickly became upset, saying he could not trust anyone on the phone, and he again demanded that I tell him my parish. When I refused, upon restating to him the purpose for my call, he hung up.
At no time during the call could I discern any interest in what I might say. The attitude was US vs THEM, and I guess +Antoun found me standing with the enemy. I'm saddened and a bit hurt, but I've resolved to wait these impostors out until holy men can take their thrones. They don't own the church and neither do we. It belongs to our precious Lord and savior. Glory to God for all things!
#105
MichaelPatrick
on
2009-08-17 09:35
God bless Metropolitan PHILIP for his efforts, I personally wouldn't want to go to St. Tikon anyways...it's to secluded and living with no women around will basically force me to be a monk. Just my personal opinion.
#106
William
on
2009-08-17 10:20
MP should understand that if he should manage to silence Mark in some way, others are prepared to take up that cross. It has gone too far for the repetition of scandals caused by MP to be swept away with politeness, for faithful Orthodox be silenced. While the scandals to the faithful caused by MP are of long standing, these most recent provocations reached crisis level when our metropolitan attempted to change the ecclesiastical structure of Orthodoxy and the nature of the episcopacy simply as a means to consolidating his personal power in the name of a false unity. After seemingly endless intrigue, it took the Holy Synod of Antioch and repeated direct interventions by the Patriarch of Antioch to stop Philip's onslaught. Now, by interfering with the education of seminarians, he once again is acting as if he were Pope. It is not simply micro-management here ... it is a transgression against the authority of diocesan bishops that is being played out.
The various humiliations of good men and women by our loose canon metropolitan are in some ways peripheral to the central issue of defending the faith. The nature of the Episcopacy, of Orthodox ecclesiology, cannot be separated from our understanding of the Faith. Philip's machinations and intrigues in this regard are an attack not only on the faithful but upon the Faith. It has gone too far for him to retire with his good name. He has no good name except among his sycophants who are blinded by their own rebellion against God ... and some by simple ignorance or innocence. Granted, I don't want to see the faithful be made to suffer (more) by MP but he cannot be allowed to misuse his office to change the Faith once received from the apostles.
We will conserve the Orthodox Faith. We will not receive changes made that violate the conciliar nature of the episcopacy, that attack the catholicity of our Lord's Church. Therefore, we will persevere and endure in prayer and faithfulness. We will uphold and comfort our faithful bishops, priests, deacons and laity who suffer for the sake of the Gospel ... even as the Holy Spirit gives comfort to those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake. I pray that Metropolitan Philip's ears be opened to hear our Lord's words: "Why do you persecute my church?" Clearly, St. Paul's example gives us great hope for both ourselves and for our failing metropolitan.
The various humiliations of good men and women by our loose canon metropolitan are in some ways peripheral to the central issue of defending the faith. The nature of the Episcopacy, of Orthodox ecclesiology, cannot be separated from our understanding of the Faith. Philip's machinations and intrigues in this regard are an attack not only on the faithful but upon the Faith. It has gone too far for him to retire with his good name. He has no good name except among his sycophants who are blinded by their own rebellion against God ... and some by simple ignorance or innocence. Granted, I don't want to see the faithful be made to suffer (more) by MP but he cannot be allowed to misuse his office to change the Faith once received from the apostles.
We will conserve the Orthodox Faith. We will not receive changes made that violate the conciliar nature of the episcopacy, that attack the catholicity of our Lord's Church. Therefore, we will persevere and endure in prayer and faithfulness. We will uphold and comfort our faithful bishops, priests, deacons and laity who suffer for the sake of the Gospel ... even as the Holy Spirit gives comfort to those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake. I pray that Metropolitan Philip's ears be opened to hear our Lord's words: "Why do you persecute my church?" Clearly, St. Paul's example gives us great hope for both ourselves and for our failing metropolitan.
#107
Monologistos
on
2009-08-17 10:54
"But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, Hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in."
- Matt. 23:13 (lectionary reading for August 17)
- Matt. 23:13 (lectionary reading for August 17)
#108
Stephen Schumacher
on
2009-08-17 10:54
I posted above my concern over whether the Greek Archdiocese is "wading into this pool of madness" by immediately accepting the OCA seminarians into Holy Cross just three weeks prior to the start of the school term. In both my under graduate and graduate programs I had to apply several months before starting school and go through a long acceptance process. And more to the point, at no time did acceptance and University A guarantee that I was also accepted at University B.
Why is the Greek Archdiocese inserting itself into this mess? Why the special treatment to these students and the slap it makes at the OCA? Why isn't Holy Cross treating these students as normal applicants and have them apply for admission for next year as they would require for anyone else? It appears they are bowing Philip's demands. Why? Resentment of the OCA? Payola? Shouldn't SCOBA be involved in this decision?
The application and acceptance process with deadlines for Holy Cross are given here:
http://www.hchc.edu/holycross/admissions/apply.html
Why is the Greek Archdiocese inserting itself into this mess? Why the special treatment to these students and the slap it makes at the OCA? Why isn't Holy Cross treating these students as normal applicants and have them apply for admission for next year as they would require for anyone else? It appears they are bowing Philip's demands. Why? Resentment of the OCA? Payola? Shouldn't SCOBA be involved in this decision?
The application and acceptance process with deadlines for Holy Cross are given here:
http://www.hchc.edu/holycross/admissions/apply.html
#109
Stu Harris
on
2009-08-17 11:37
+Phillip is not footing the bill, unless you are saying it is coming out of HIS pocket. It is the honest and decent people of the diocese that are footing the bill. If it were not for the laos, +Phillip would have zilch to offer. Should this not be a decision of the Board of Trustees and not just this individual? Does he not have to answer to the BOT? Men, speak up and let your voices be heard. Otherwise you are just puppets to this mans actions. Synod of Bishops, speak up and be heard or you will be likewise.
#110
H. Pukita
on
2009-08-17 11:37
He was just using a figure of speech Mark. He was referring to you being made out to be a target.
#111
Kevin Klein
on
2009-08-17 11:41
And, of course, by disregarding the "request" of Metropolitan Philip for a transfer and staying at an OCA seminary, they would most likely relinquish all hope of being ordained a priest in the AONA.
Dn. Marty Watt
Martin D. Watt, CPA
Dayton, Ohio
Dn. Marty Watt
Martin D. Watt, CPA
Dayton, Ohio
#112
Dn. Marty Watt
on
2009-08-17 11:51
Ah the wonderful and inspiring legacy of a true visionary has yet another glorious accomplishment to be praised. ...
Certainly not unexpected and yet another pathetic sad example of how a servant of Christ is not to act. I wonder how many stumbling blocks this now makes for those on the road to finding the True Faith?
Certainly not unexpected and yet another pathetic sad example of how a servant of Christ is not to act. I wonder how many stumbling blocks this now makes for those on the road to finding the True Faith?
#113
Kevin Kirwan
on
2009-08-17 12:23
My dear friend and respected seminarian,
With all due respect and love, God will bless us all when WE ALL stand for what is right.
Father Mark
St Stephen the First Martyr Orthodox Mission
Lima OH
+
With all due respect and love, God will bless us all when WE ALL stand for what is right.
Father Mark
St Stephen the First Martyr Orthodox Mission
Lima OH
+
I wish this could be true, but I fear that, just as with politics (Chicago, Louisiana, etc.) the MACHINE lives long after the kingfish, etc has gone to his reward.
Lord, have mercy.
So, with that reality facing us, WHO will defang them and drive them away? Who would have a whip? "The evil that men do...."
Lord, have mercy.
So, with that reality facing us, WHO will defang them and drive them away? Who would have a whip? "The evil that men do...."
#115
pelagia
on
2009-08-17 12:37
Thanks for sharing. Now for something actually intelligent...
#116
Anonymous
on
2009-08-17 12:39
Petty, vindictive behavior is equally possible for married bishops as it is for celibates. Sometimes, it's even a greater possibility because not only can the married bishop be vindictive on his own initiative, but a weak-minded married bishop can be vindictive by being urged on by his vindictive wife.
Married bishops are not the solution; encouraging a native and flourishing monastic infrastructure in this country is. And, no, Fr. Ephraim's "We Only Speak Greek Here" roadside Mt. Athos museums don't count.
Sic semper tyrannis,
Peter
Married bishops are not the solution; encouraging a native and flourishing monastic infrastructure in this country is. And, no, Fr. Ephraim's "We Only Speak Greek Here" roadside Mt. Athos museums don't count.
Sic semper tyrannis,
Peter
#117
Nemo
on
2009-08-17 12:57
The Antiochians will soon be in the midst of their own "financial crisis" if they intend to send all of their seminarians to Holy Cross. That place costs an arm and a leg. Good Luck!
#118
oca seminarian
on
2009-08-17 13:29
>>"they would most likely relinquish all hope of being ordained a priest in the AONA."
You say that as if it were a bad thing.
You say that as if it were a bad thing.
#119
Anonymous
on
2009-08-17 13:45
To all the clergy, hierarchs, and faithful of the Antiochian Orthodox Church, St. Ambrose said it best: "Not only for every idle word must man give an account, but for every idle silence."
Not in this archdiocese!
#121
Phileas
on
2009-08-17 15:04
In the interest of accuracy, Saint Vladimir's Seminary does offer courses in Byzantine chant (a curricular requirement for seminarians from the Antiochian jurisdiction), Serbian chant (a curricular requirement for seminarians from the Serbian jurisdiction) and Byzantine notation, as well as course in Russian "obikhod" (common) chant (a curricular requirement for seminarians from the OCA).
#122
Gregory
on
2009-08-17 16:06
Why is the Greek Archdiocese helping with this? The future is, unfortunately, now! Everything is laid out nicely here:
http://www.goarch.org/archdiocese/documents/chambesy
Read the documents. Think about who will be "chairing" these Assemblies. Note who defines canonical. Think about how long the OCA will be on the "list" without our old dear friends the Antiochians.
It really is not surprising that the Greek Archdiocese would work against the vision of a Local Church in these United States. But it is beyond sad that Fr. Alexander Schmemann's student, Metropolitan Philip, has forgotten what he learned and where he learned it.
This Chambessy document is the REAL news of the day. Not whether this Archpriest or that is implicated in this scandal or that.
http://www.goarch.org/archdiocese/documents/chambesy
Read the documents. Think about who will be "chairing" these Assemblies. Note who defines canonical. Think about how long the OCA will be on the "list" without our old dear friends the Antiochians.
It really is not surprising that the Greek Archdiocese would work against the vision of a Local Church in these United States. But it is beyond sad that Fr. Alexander Schmemann's student, Metropolitan Philip, has forgotten what he learned and where he learned it.
This Chambessy document is the REAL news of the day. Not whether this Archpriest or that is implicated in this scandal or that.
#123
Neither Jew nor Greek
on
2009-08-17 17:00
Being that Metro. Philip has done this sort of thing before (trying to hurt the OCA and /or the Seminaries) I think it would be very wise that these institutions to come up with a legal and binding aggrement that the Antiochian Archdiocese...(i.e. Me myself, +Philip) ought to be required to pay for three years of education once a student is excepted wither that student attends all three years or leaves becuase +Philip has another pitty party.
Bubba
P.S. Call the laywers fast!
Bubba
P.S. Call the laywers fast!
#124
Bubba
on
2009-08-17 17:17
We truly don't need those students. If there tuition is significant, the OCA can have a Truth Appeal and I'll give to it.
MP seems to forget what country he operates within, and moreover, the God he serves. Is he a god of truth or a god of lies and coverups? Antitheists have an easy answer to hullaboo such as this... God can't appreciate that. ...ergo, God can't appreciate the actions taken by MP.
Any soul searching within the AOCA seminarians? If so, just keep in mind MP is a human being, clearly capable of error, and he has an obvious limitation to his powers.
my thoughts for what they are worth...
MP seems to forget what country he operates within, and moreover, the God he serves. Is he a god of truth or a god of lies and coverups? Antitheists have an easy answer to hullaboo such as this... God can't appreciate that. ...ergo, God can't appreciate the actions taken by MP.
Any soul searching within the AOCA seminarians? If so, just keep in mind MP is a human being, clearly capable of error, and he has an obvious limitation to his powers.
my thoughts for what they are worth...
#125
Daniel E. Fall
on
2009-08-17 19:09
The above is true as I am a witness and amongst those who left Fr. Allen's parish with many others. Met. P. went to the funeral home not the funeral in B'klyn. They did, indeed, cause him much stress seeking to find a new "Christian Dept. Chrmn", despite his knowledge and learning. Probably the best lay theologian in modern Antiochian times! He deserved better informing his "former" best friend, J. Allen, that he was wrong to remarry and to a divorced women, whose 1st husband was a former parish council chairman, no less !!
#126
Anonymous - Englewood
on
2009-08-17 19:31
Truly, what did you expect from Bp Black Jack? Very simple person but helpful to Met Philip who'd rather "be away".
Tune in ANTIOCHIAN website and read a most evading statement by the Met. on this matter!
One thing true he always wanted a seminary of his own but knowing the "cost"{. Perhaps w/ Fr Joe Allen as "first Dean"? The Antiochian Hse of Studies his alternative?
Years ago he "paraded" this idea. So much for his idle "talk" he enjoys on Orthodox Unity. Every jurisdiction needs its own Seminary, right? An excuse being their "music" is different! How naive we are supposed to be !
Tune in ANTIOCHIAN website and read a most evading statement by the Met. on this matter!
One thing true he always wanted a seminary of his own but knowing the "cost"{. Perhaps w/ Fr Joe Allen as "first Dean"? The Antiochian Hse of Studies his alternative?
Years ago he "paraded" this idea. So much for his idle "talk" he enjoys on Orthodox Unity. Every jurisdiction needs its own Seminary, right? An excuse being their "music" is different! How naive we are supposed to be !
#127
Anonymous Priest
on
2009-08-17 19:39
Well, note the link. Considering the author's "Why I Am Not a Part of World Orthodoxy" blog-post — in which we hear from a man who left ROCOR in 2000 because it was too Ecumenist — maybe there is more than just a figure of speech in play here.
In any event, let me highlight something: Mark has here given the definitive answer to accusations of democratic or liberal motivations.
"I am an Orthodox Christian who will defend the teachings and practices and traditions of his Church to the best of his abilities because it still makes a difference whether we do or not. It should make a difference to everyone, lest we allow these things to pass away in silence ...."
One may agree or disagree with Mark's conclusions — but nothing can be said against these criteria for action. This is pure patristics.
In any event, let me highlight something: Mark has here given the definitive answer to accusations of democratic or liberal motivations.
"I am an Orthodox Christian who will defend the teachings and practices and traditions of his Church to the best of his abilities because it still makes a difference whether we do or not. It should make a difference to everyone, lest we allow these things to pass away in silence ...."
One may agree or disagree with Mark's conclusions — but nothing can be said against these criteria for action. This is pure patristics.
#128
A Fellow Orthodox Christian
on
2009-08-17 20:29
Sure William, but these young men did want to go to St. Tikhon's and St. Vlad's and — having gotten a blessing to go — they organized their lives accordingly. And then, at the last second, they were told to go to someplace totally different, forcing them to move all their stuff and scramble for housing and who knows what else.
I know you try to look on the bright side for Met. Philip, but please review your words a bit more before you post!
I know you try to look on the bright side for Met. Philip, but please review your words a bit more before you post!
#129
A Fellow Orthodox Christian
on
2009-08-17 20:40
Meh. This sounds like SCOBA with marginally more specific missions.
"The Episcopal Assemblies do not deprive the Member Bishops of their administrative competencies and canonical character, nor do they restrict their rights in the Diaspora. The Episcopal Assemblies aim to form a common position of the Orthodox Church on various issues."
In other words, even more non-binding position papers. And they keep this up until the Great and Holy Council arrives. Regrettably, by that time the English language may have changed so much that no one will be able to read the older position papers.
The OCA will have its spot as long as the Russians have a say. If the Russians don't support the OCA as an autocephalous Church, then they're putting into question their ability to grant autocephaly. (Thus, as of a few months ago, the Patriarchal parishes in the US started commemorating Met. Jonah.)
Incidentally, I don't see where it is that "canonical" is defined.
Finally, I don't understand how America and Canada ended up together with Central America. Wouldn't it make more sense to separate the American regions roughly according to shared language?
Wait — I see it all now! The EP is part of the North American Union conspiracy. Somebody call Lou Dobbs!
"The Episcopal Assemblies do not deprive the Member Bishops of their administrative competencies and canonical character, nor do they restrict their rights in the Diaspora. The Episcopal Assemblies aim to form a common position of the Orthodox Church on various issues."
In other words, even more non-binding position papers. And they keep this up until the Great and Holy Council arrives. Regrettably, by that time the English language may have changed so much that no one will be able to read the older position papers.
The OCA will have its spot as long as the Russians have a say. If the Russians don't support the OCA as an autocephalous Church, then they're putting into question their ability to grant autocephaly. (Thus, as of a few months ago, the Patriarchal parishes in the US started commemorating Met. Jonah.)
Incidentally, I don't see where it is that "canonical" is defined.
Finally, I don't understand how America and Canada ended up together with Central America. Wouldn't it make more sense to separate the American regions roughly according to shared language?
Wait — I see it all now! The EP is part of the North American Union conspiracy. Somebody call Lou Dobbs!
#130
A Fellow Orthodox Christian
on
2009-08-17 21:23
I'm posting my delayed message here, since I can't get onto most of the articles comments sections at this time. I was away for 2 weeks, and I strongly urge all of you, given the opportunity, to use time away to stay away from your computers and take a break. It is very healing and refreshing, and you come back rested and ready to resume this difficult situation.
I hope this finds all of you back home safely from the convention and well rested. It was so much fun to see people from all over, especially those from far away. We missed many of you there, but we do understand that different circumstances kept you from attending.
I want to give a great big thank you to our hosts, St. Michael Orthodox Church in Van Nuys, CA. Every event, every church service, every meal, and the hotel facilitities - it was all perfect - so wonderfully coordinated and organized. You all worked so hard to make it a nice week for us, and your hospitality was the best, even though you worked under very difficult circumstances. Thank you again, and I hope your committee was able to get
away to a quiet vacation spot for some much needed and well deserved R/R.
Well, the convention is over, but the battle goes on and has expanded to include, educate and inform more people. I had the opportunity to talk with many clergy and laity during the week, especially on Friday afternoon. They were very disappointed and saddened at the General Assembly Meeting, and we have to keep working at this until things are done right. It truly is up to the laity to do what must be done, as our clergy are at the mercy of undeserved punishments for speaking out, so we will be their voices and their support system.
I will be sharing many thoughts with you as time goes on, as I think the more we express ourselves via this wonderful website, the more someone will listen to us, give us credibility and help us to do the right thing for God's Holy Church. Other than the posting I did in preparation for the convention, I have held off the temptation to state my comments. However, after the way we were treated at the general assembly, I don't think any of us can afford to be silent any longer.
I encourage all of you to post your comments, read ethe website dialy, write articles, letters, reflections, etc. - anything that we can share with one another. Some of you may have seen or heard something that we didn't all observe, and this way we can share those individual experiences with each other. I only ask you to do the following so we can be truly effective:
1. Keep your comments professional and Christian
2. Be sure you have accurate information
3. Always uphold the virtues of honesty, ethical behavior and God's Will for our future
4. Always maintain what is best for the whole Archdiocese
5. Let your words reflect our Holy, Orthodox love for God, while expressing your concerns and suggestions for the future restoration of peace, truth and joy into our parishes everywhere.
This is God's Archdiocese, entrusted to all of us, clergy and laity, and we must work hard together to return it to the house of worship that it hsould alwaqys have been.
God bless you and keep you all safe and well. May HIS Will prevail.
I hope this finds all of you back home safely from the convention and well rested. It was so much fun to see people from all over, especially those from far away. We missed many of you there, but we do understand that different circumstances kept you from attending.
I want to give a great big thank you to our hosts, St. Michael Orthodox Church in Van Nuys, CA. Every event, every church service, every meal, and the hotel facilitities - it was all perfect - so wonderfully coordinated and organized. You all worked so hard to make it a nice week for us, and your hospitality was the best, even though you worked under very difficult circumstances. Thank you again, and I hope your committee was able to get
away to a quiet vacation spot for some much needed and well deserved R/R.
Well, the convention is over, but the battle goes on and has expanded to include, educate and inform more people. I had the opportunity to talk with many clergy and laity during the week, especially on Friday afternoon. They were very disappointed and saddened at the General Assembly Meeting, and we have to keep working at this until things are done right. It truly is up to the laity to do what must be done, as our clergy are at the mercy of undeserved punishments for speaking out, so we will be their voices and their support system.
I will be sharing many thoughts with you as time goes on, as I think the more we express ourselves via this wonderful website, the more someone will listen to us, give us credibility and help us to do the right thing for God's Holy Church. Other than the posting I did in preparation for the convention, I have held off the temptation to state my comments. However, after the way we were treated at the general assembly, I don't think any of us can afford to be silent any longer.
I encourage all of you to post your comments, read ethe website dialy, write articles, letters, reflections, etc. - anything that we can share with one another. Some of you may have seen or heard something that we didn't all observe, and this way we can share those individual experiences with each other. I only ask you to do the following so we can be truly effective:
1. Keep your comments professional and Christian
2. Be sure you have accurate information
3. Always uphold the virtues of honesty, ethical behavior and God's Will for our future
4. Always maintain what is best for the whole Archdiocese
5. Let your words reflect our Holy, Orthodox love for God, while expressing your concerns and suggestions for the future restoration of peace, truth and joy into our parishes everywhere.
This is God's Archdiocese, entrusted to all of us, clergy and laity, and we must work hard together to return it to the house of worship that it hsould alwaqys have been.
God bless you and keep you all safe and well. May HIS Will prevail.
To all!
Metropolitan PHILIP has the iscretion to have Antiochian seminarians attend which every seminary He desires. If Metropolitan JONAH will not intervene for Mark Stoke and this website to cese stop interferring in the Antiochian archdiocese then MEtropolitan PHILIP is right to hodl the OCA accountable, why should we the Antiochian archdiocese then support OCA seminariwes if they are not willing to address the issue, which effect Antiochian-OCA relatians.
Maybe the OCA will get the message when the money goes to the Greeks
MEtropolitan PHILIP have just exercise his right, since the archdiocese is paying fo the education. /This is called be obedient to your MEtropolitan
Many years to Metropolitan PHILIP and all of the Antiochian Bishops of the God Protected Antiochian Archdiocese.
Metropolitan PHILIP has the iscretion to have Antiochian seminarians attend which every seminary He desires. If Metropolitan JONAH will not intervene for Mark Stoke and this website to cese stop interferring in the Antiochian archdiocese then MEtropolitan PHILIP is right to hodl the OCA accountable, why should we the Antiochian archdiocese then support OCA seminariwes if they are not willing to address the issue, which effect Antiochian-OCA relatians.
Maybe the OCA will get the message when the money goes to the Greeks
MEtropolitan PHILIP have just exercise his right, since the archdiocese is paying fo the education. /This is called be obedient to your MEtropolitan
Many years to Metropolitan PHILIP and all of the Antiochian Bishops of the God Protected Antiochian Archdiocese.
#132
Michael Srour
on
2009-08-18 00:09
Most holy Theotokos save us!
#133
Anonymous
on
2009-08-18 00:27
If being "foreign" made bishops evil, then the Church should decanonize Saints Raphael, John the Wonderworker, Tikhon, and Nicolai. Please protest people's actions, not their nationalities. The events of the past year have brought about some interest in articles that were written in Arabic, such as the ones by Metropolitan George (Khodr) and Abbot Touma (Bittar). People in North America should conclude from such contributions that those in the Middle East can be quite sympathetic with their wishes for good canonical order and -at least in the case of Aboot Touma- a united Orthodox Church on the continent. Being born overseas should not be equated with being power hungry and lacking understanding. It is possible to be born in America and possess those vices.
#134
Elias
on
2009-08-18 03:23
To Michael Srour:
You would not feel the same if this directly affected you or one of your loved ones. Don't be blinded by what others have to say and really think about the sitaution. Have some compassion esp. for the family that was already moved in to St. Vlads and is about to give birth.Think of them, not yourself.
To William:
Many men choose to go St Tikhon's because of its location away from distractions such as big cities and all that is wrong in America. The distractions in our lives are sent by Satan to keep us from praying and becoming closer to Christ.
You would not feel the same if this directly affected you or one of your loved ones. Don't be blinded by what others have to say and really think about the sitaution. Have some compassion esp. for the family that was already moved in to St. Vlads and is about to give birth.Think of them, not yourself.
To William:
Many men choose to go St Tikhon's because of its location away from distractions such as big cities and all that is wrong in America. The distractions in our lives are sent by Satan to keep us from praying and becoming closer to Christ.
#135
Hush, hush
on
2009-08-18 06:07
Mr Srour,
There is no "issue" to address. The OCA has no affiliation with or control over ocanews.org, and Mark Stokoe has every right as an American citizen to print information and comments about the AOANA. Therefore +Philip's action is nothing but childish lashing out.
What does he have to fear? That the same kind of information about misdeeds in the central administration of the OCA that finally brought reform to that jurisdiction might come out on this site about the AOANA?
Why else would he be concerned about what is printed here?
There is no "issue" to address. The OCA has no affiliation with or control over ocanews.org, and Mark Stokoe has every right as an American citizen to print information and comments about the AOANA. Therefore +Philip's action is nothing but childish lashing out.
What does he have to fear? That the same kind of information about misdeeds in the central administration of the OCA that finally brought reform to that jurisdiction might come out on this site about the AOANA?
Why else would he be concerned about what is printed here?
#136
JPS
on
2009-08-18 06:55
I really agree with your comments, Elias.
Good for you. Yes, it is the actions not the nationalities.
What is the problem here in America with its Orthodoxy?
Perhaps it is just the LACK OF RESOLVE TO BE UNITED IN ONE ORTHODOX ADMINISTRATION. How will that ever happen?
The patriots fighting the American War of Independence had a GREAT EDGE: THEY HAD THE RESOLVE!! They WANTED their independence and freedom from England! They achieved it!
With all the talent, power, authority, and leadership in the Orthodox Church in ALL its jurisdictions here in America, WE LACK THE RESOLVE!!
It apparently is not a big deal to have five different Orthodox administrations here in America even though it is uncanonical.
We tolerate and enable this uncanonical situation.
I really don't know how to go about solving the problem of getting us MORE RESOLVED in having a unified Orthodox Church, but several blogs on this site have given great suggestions.
The patriots in the American War of Independence found a way. THEY WERE RESOLVED TO DO IT!!! They WORKED at it! A Declaration of Independence was written up before we actually secured that independence. Books were written; Patrick Henry said, GIVE ME LIBERTY OR GIVE ME DEATH.
Countless examples are with us in America in the determining of our independent fate. There was suffering. There were difficulties. There was the Crossing of the Delaware in which the mission almost failed. But RESOLVE WENT FORWARD.
THERE WAS RESOLVE TO BE FREE and INDEPENDENT.
God help us here with our moving to administrative unity in America.
I DON'T SEE THE RESOLVE to form one unified Orthodox administration AND I don't know how to create it.
Patty Schellbach
Good for you. Yes, it is the actions not the nationalities.
What is the problem here in America with its Orthodoxy?
Perhaps it is just the LACK OF RESOLVE TO BE UNITED IN ONE ORTHODOX ADMINISTRATION. How will that ever happen?
The patriots fighting the American War of Independence had a GREAT EDGE: THEY HAD THE RESOLVE!! They WANTED their independence and freedom from England! They achieved it!
With all the talent, power, authority, and leadership in the Orthodox Church in ALL its jurisdictions here in America, WE LACK THE RESOLVE!!
It apparently is not a big deal to have five different Orthodox administrations here in America even though it is uncanonical.
We tolerate and enable this uncanonical situation.
I really don't know how to go about solving the problem of getting us MORE RESOLVED in having a unified Orthodox Church, but several blogs on this site have given great suggestions.
The patriots in the American War of Independence found a way. THEY WERE RESOLVED TO DO IT!!! They WORKED at it! A Declaration of Independence was written up before we actually secured that independence. Books were written; Patrick Henry said, GIVE ME LIBERTY OR GIVE ME DEATH.
Countless examples are with us in America in the determining of our independent fate. There was suffering. There were difficulties. There was the Crossing of the Delaware in which the mission almost failed. But RESOLVE WENT FORWARD.
THERE WAS RESOLVE TO BE FREE and INDEPENDENT.
God help us here with our moving to administrative unity in America.
I DON'T SEE THE RESOLVE to form one unified Orthodox administration AND I don't know how to create it.
Patty Schellbach
#137
Patty Schellbach
on
2009-08-18 07:51
Well you are rather missing the point Michael. In some parts of the world we don't snuff out dissent because we don't like it. +Phillip's request that +JONAH silence this website is completely out of bounds. +Phillip holding the OCA seminaries accountable for this website is light years out of bounds (ahem...that means WAY out of bounds.) It's stupid and revealing...VERY revealing. Bishops using blackmail! That is NOT behavior "beyond reproach."
I say let Holy Cross have your archdiocese's future indentured servants. You seem to forget that this website was instrumental in starting the OCA down a healthy track. God willing it will do the same for the AOCNA. If you stifle such needed reforms (e.g. external audits), you will see a mass migration to the OCA.
The future does not belong to +Phillip and his brand of leadership...not at all.
I say let Holy Cross have your archdiocese's future indentured servants. You seem to forget that this website was instrumental in starting the OCA down a healthy track. God willing it will do the same for the AOCNA. If you stifle such needed reforms (e.g. external audits), you will see a mass migration to the OCA.
The future does not belong to +Phillip and his brand of leadership...not at all.
#138
irenaios
on
2009-08-18 08:07
An Open Letter to Antiochian
Orthodox Christian Archdiocese
I am a cradle Orthodox of Lebanese descent. I am a member of the Order of St. Ignatius and have served the Church on parish councils many times throughout the years.
I am writing as a concerned member of our God-protected Archdiocese. At the present time there is a crisis of confidence in the administration of our Archdiocese. I have pondered over writing this letter and had originally decided against it, hoping that the situation would be solved. However, the latest action of Metropolitan Phillip in removing incoming students from St. Tikhom and St. Vladimir Seminaries was the straw that broke this camel's back. Such an act of pettiness, due to the publication of news by the website www.ocanews.org, was an action beneath the dignity of our Metropolitan. I did not attend the Archdiocese Convention, however I have read the reports of the General Assembly and have spoken to a number of people who did attend. If half of what I read and heard is true, the actions of Metropolitan Phillip were disgraceful. His actions at the Convention in shutting off legitimate debate and side-stepping questions are not the actions of a leader who has the interest of the Archdiocese at heart. His apparent assumption of omnipotence by declaring he would decide when he would die may or may not have been a blunder of speech, but it is shocking coming from a man of God. There is no denying that Metropolitan Phillip has done much to improve our Archdiocese, but he did not do it alone. What has been done was by the grace of God and the innumerable contributions of countless laymen and clergy. It would appear that Metropolitan Philip has succumbed to the idea that he alone is the Archdiocese and can do no wrong.
I am not a theologian nor an expert on Canon Law but I am perceptive enough to know that if the present state of affairs is not changed and if nothing is done it will cause irreparable damage to our Archdiocese.
What needs to be done is simple, and should not cause a problem to anyone who holds the interest of the Archdiocese as paramount:
First, put the rumors of financial impropriety to rest by having an independent CPA firm to audit the finances of the Archdiocese for the past three years and make the results of the audit public by publishing in the Word magazine and having the results posted on the Archdiocese website.
Second, publish the Constitution of the Archdiocese (both versions) on the Website. At this time, I cannot locate the documents.
Third, make sure that the appointment and election of the members of the Board of Trustees represents fairly each Diocese of the Archdiocese and conforms to our Constitution and New York state law.
These changes in the administration of the Archdiocese will go far to dispel the controversy and disunity with which we are faced. Thoughtful dissent is not an act of defiance but instead comes from concern for the Archdiocese.
I have decided not to sigh this letter, since I do not want my views to cause harm to others. In view of the apparent vindictiveness of Metropolitan Philip, it is it only course that I can take, even though I normally do not approve of anonymouse letters.
- A concerned member of the Archdiocese
Orthodox Christian Archdiocese
I am a cradle Orthodox of Lebanese descent. I am a member of the Order of St. Ignatius and have served the Church on parish councils many times throughout the years.
I am writing as a concerned member of our God-protected Archdiocese. At the present time there is a crisis of confidence in the administration of our Archdiocese. I have pondered over writing this letter and had originally decided against it, hoping that the situation would be solved. However, the latest action of Metropolitan Phillip in removing incoming students from St. Tikhom and St. Vladimir Seminaries was the straw that broke this camel's back. Such an act of pettiness, due to the publication of news by the website www.ocanews.org, was an action beneath the dignity of our Metropolitan. I did not attend the Archdiocese Convention, however I have read the reports of the General Assembly and have spoken to a number of people who did attend. If half of what I read and heard is true, the actions of Metropolitan Phillip were disgraceful. His actions at the Convention in shutting off legitimate debate and side-stepping questions are not the actions of a leader who has the interest of the Archdiocese at heart. His apparent assumption of omnipotence by declaring he would decide when he would die may or may not have been a blunder of speech, but it is shocking coming from a man of God. There is no denying that Metropolitan Phillip has done much to improve our Archdiocese, but he did not do it alone. What has been done was by the grace of God and the innumerable contributions of countless laymen and clergy. It would appear that Metropolitan Philip has succumbed to the idea that he alone is the Archdiocese and can do no wrong.
I am not a theologian nor an expert on Canon Law but I am perceptive enough to know that if the present state of affairs is not changed and if nothing is done it will cause irreparable damage to our Archdiocese.
What needs to be done is simple, and should not cause a problem to anyone who holds the interest of the Archdiocese as paramount:
First, put the rumors of financial impropriety to rest by having an independent CPA firm to audit the finances of the Archdiocese for the past three years and make the results of the audit public by publishing in the Word magazine and having the results posted on the Archdiocese website.
Second, publish the Constitution of the Archdiocese (both versions) on the Website. At this time, I cannot locate the documents.
Third, make sure that the appointment and election of the members of the Board of Trustees represents fairly each Diocese of the Archdiocese and conforms to our Constitution and New York state law.
These changes in the administration of the Archdiocese will go far to dispel the controversy and disunity with which we are faced. Thoughtful dissent is not an act of defiance but instead comes from concern for the Archdiocese.
I have decided not to sigh this letter, since I do not want my views to cause harm to others. In view of the apparent vindictiveness of Metropolitan Philip, it is it only course that I can take, even though I normally do not approve of anonymouse letters.
- A concerned member of the Archdiocese
#139
Anonymous
on
2009-08-18 08:20
Since when is reporting news in accordance with freedom of the Press "interfering" with another Archdiocese? If the AOAA doesn't like bad news to be reported in the free press in this country, then maybe they should STOP DOING bad things to be reported. Plain and simple. If the clergy don't want "freedom of the press" so we can watch and read what it is they're doing, then maybe they should all move to some country that doesn't have a free press . . . but even then, that might not be enough. Iran doesn't have a free press either, but that didn't stop millions of people from protesting and getting the word out to the world via the internet. All that only ceased when the government put a total black out on the internet itself. Is that sort of dictatorship REALLY what +MP and his supporters, and the heirarchy of the Church at large really want? Not just a theocracy, but a theocracy where all disenting opinions are "put down"? Isn't that what the Temple priests and Rome did with Jesus? Put him down as a radical preaching weird things and proclaiming stuff like, oh His Kingdom is not of the world.
The Church of Christ is not the Roman Empire, never was, despite how close the Church and Rome were for hundreds of years. It was ALWAYS Christ's Church, and only His Church, it never belonged to the Emperor, the state, the Patriarchs, Popes, or anyone else. It belongs to Jesus the Messiah, and until the Church begins to act like it lives in His presence, then it is OUR responsibility to stand up and report what the heck is going on. It's funny that the only people who are against the free press are the people who are always doing things that are either questionable, or flat our illegal. You never hear law abiding, Christ like individuals saying things like "stop reporting our good behavior or I'll pray for you!!!" It's always "stop reporting our bad behavior or I'll do something bad to you!" BIG difference.
The Church of Christ is not the Roman Empire, never was, despite how close the Church and Rome were for hundreds of years. It was ALWAYS Christ's Church, and only His Church, it never belonged to the Emperor, the state, the Patriarchs, Popes, or anyone else. It belongs to Jesus the Messiah, and until the Church begins to act like it lives in His presence, then it is OUR responsibility to stand up and report what the heck is going on. It's funny that the only people who are against the free press are the people who are always doing things that are either questionable, or flat our illegal. You never hear law abiding, Christ like individuals saying things like "stop reporting our good behavior or I'll pray for you!!!" It's always "stop reporting our bad behavior or I'll do something bad to you!" BIG difference.
#140
Chuck Shingledecker
on
2009-08-18 08:38
This message from Mr Srour is, I believe, both correct and somewhat irrelevant.
I have not the slightest doubt---as I have told the many inquirers in my parish---that the Metropolitan was fully within his canonical rights with respect to our three seminarians.
However, unless I am mistaken, the objection raised here most often is directed, not to the Metropolitan's canonical rights, but to the hardships experienced by the seminarians themselves. The Metropolitan is being accused, not of overstepping his canonical rights, but of inadequate pastoral sensitivity toward the needs of these seminarians and their families.
He is being portrayed as a vindictive, insensitive man who care very little for others. Give me a break. How do we explain the pastoral successes of the past 30 years on a shaky hypothesis like that?
There is no doubt that Englewood now has a publican relations nightmare on its hands right now. (I believe there has been more negative comment on this point than on any other over the past year.)
I must confess, for my part, the suspicion that the Metropolitan was not made aware---ahead of time---of the practical difficulties that would result from his decision. Thus, if there was a pastoral failing here, it should be ascribed, not to the Metropolitan, but to the process by which information comes to the Metropolitan.
Nor am I blaming his advisors. This appears to be a problem, rather, with the process itself. That is to say, it should be understood as further evidence that the mechanisms of the Archdiocese have not yet been adjusted to accommodate the extraordinary rapid growth of the Archdiocese.
Three or four gears are usually adequate for the average automobile, but Metropolitan Philip, for the past several years, has been driving an 18-wheeler.
On this site, some time ago, I argued that the folks at Englewood are dreadfully overworked---especially Bishop Antoun, on whose desk all these tangled and complicated matters eventually find their way. As I mentioned here some time ago, I do not know how Bishop Antoun maintains his sanity, trying to deal with pastoral assignments for hundreds of clergy, parishes, and missions across this whole massive continent. I think on this each day, when I come to Bishop Antoun's name (always with affection, for he ordained me) in my prayer list.
Let me suggest that, instead of ascribing ill will in difficulties of this sort, we try to think more constructively how to improve the structure itself. How do we get the Metropolitan a better transmission system?
I repeat here my own suggestion that clergy assignments (including decisions about seminarians) would best be handled by the "local synod" as a whole, so that such judgments are graced with maximum wisdom.
I have not the slightest doubt---as I have told the many inquirers in my parish---that the Metropolitan was fully within his canonical rights with respect to our three seminarians.
However, unless I am mistaken, the objection raised here most often is directed, not to the Metropolitan's canonical rights, but to the hardships experienced by the seminarians themselves. The Metropolitan is being accused, not of overstepping his canonical rights, but of inadequate pastoral sensitivity toward the needs of these seminarians and their families.
He is being portrayed as a vindictive, insensitive man who care very little for others. Give me a break. How do we explain the pastoral successes of the past 30 years on a shaky hypothesis like that?
There is no doubt that Englewood now has a publican relations nightmare on its hands right now. (I believe there has been more negative comment on this point than on any other over the past year.)
I must confess, for my part, the suspicion that the Metropolitan was not made aware---ahead of time---of the practical difficulties that would result from his decision. Thus, if there was a pastoral failing here, it should be ascribed, not to the Metropolitan, but to the process by which information comes to the Metropolitan.
Nor am I blaming his advisors. This appears to be a problem, rather, with the process itself. That is to say, it should be understood as further evidence that the mechanisms of the Archdiocese have not yet been adjusted to accommodate the extraordinary rapid growth of the Archdiocese.
Three or four gears are usually adequate for the average automobile, but Metropolitan Philip, for the past several years, has been driving an 18-wheeler.
On this site, some time ago, I argued that the folks at Englewood are dreadfully overworked---especially Bishop Antoun, on whose desk all these tangled and complicated matters eventually find their way. As I mentioned here some time ago, I do not know how Bishop Antoun maintains his sanity, trying to deal with pastoral assignments for hundreds of clergy, parishes, and missions across this whole massive continent. I think on this each day, when I come to Bishop Antoun's name (always with affection, for he ordained me) in my prayer list.
Let me suggest that, instead of ascribing ill will in difficulties of this sort, we try to think more constructively how to improve the structure itself. How do we get the Metropolitan a better transmission system?
I repeat here my own suggestion that clergy assignments (including decisions about seminarians) would best be handled by the "local synod" as a whole, so that such judgments are graced with maximum wisdom.
#141
Father Patrick Reardon
on
2009-08-18 09:03
Michael Srour,
You and Met Philip are both mistaken: Met Jonah has no authority whatsoever over Mark Stokoe. What makes you think the OCA administration can simply "silence" Mark? Don't you think, if they had that power, Met Herman and Bob Kondratick would have used it, rather than allow Mark to make the truth about them known? If the OCA couldn't silence Mark about their own mess, there's no way than can do it now, about a mess that isn't theirs.
And what's with this idea that OCA seminaries should be punished? What did they ever do? Were they educating their students to disrespect Met Philip? No. In fact, Met Philip himself is the Vice President of the St. Vladimir's Board of Trustees.
Anyway, if Met Philip is really innocent and Mark Stokoe is really just spreading filth, then why doesn't Met Philip take the high road and ignore him? Why give him legitimacy by trying to silence him? And why make innocent seminarians, their wives, and their children pawns, to be moved and sacrificed whenever one man wishes? This is all shameful, and you, Mr. Srour, should be ashamed of yourself for supporting such behavior.
You and Met Philip are both mistaken: Met Jonah has no authority whatsoever over Mark Stokoe. What makes you think the OCA administration can simply "silence" Mark? Don't you think, if they had that power, Met Herman and Bob Kondratick would have used it, rather than allow Mark to make the truth about them known? If the OCA couldn't silence Mark about their own mess, there's no way than can do it now, about a mess that isn't theirs.
And what's with this idea that OCA seminaries should be punished? What did they ever do? Were they educating their students to disrespect Met Philip? No. In fact, Met Philip himself is the Vice President of the St. Vladimir's Board of Trustees.
Anyway, if Met Philip is really innocent and Mark Stokoe is really just spreading filth, then why doesn't Met Philip take the high road and ignore him? Why give him legitimacy by trying to silence him? And why make innocent seminarians, their wives, and their children pawns, to be moved and sacrificed whenever one man wishes? This is all shameful, and you, Mr. Srour, should be ashamed of yourself for supporting such behavior.
#142
Ferris Haddad
on
2009-08-18 09:15
Dear Elias,
Thank you for your wise and timely comments. Indeed, sin and error knows no national, racial or ethnic boundaries. What we may have here may be more of cultural misunderstandings than anything else. I am thinking that the distinction should be between western and "old-country" cultures, attitudes and expectations--not necessarily regarding ecclesiology but more so regarding the general approach to authority. I am cradle and I am off-the-boat naturalized citizen. Yet, I think I have accepted and internalized the American/Anglophone attitude to individual freedom and to authority. Indeed, no kings or foreign potentates for me and nobody is my master except the Lord. However, I can understand if other foreigners like me have not accepted western political beliefs and assimilated like I have. Perhaps, personal loyalty to a leader is an indispensable part of their cultural and psychological makeup; thus, you have expressions of loyalty and obeisance to Metropolitan Philip that grate on my ears but perhaps are purely normal in another culture.
What we have is truly a hodgepodge where stereotypes cannot hold. I see that variety in the postings of Michael Srour and Samia Habib above, or those of Father Matta Koury in The Antiochian blog (http://www.theantiochian.com/site/?p=505) and Archimandrite Touma (Bittar). So, the bottom line for me is that, at this time, it may be sufficient to better understand each other and to make allowances for these cultural differences. This is in no way to say that I approve Metropolitan Philip's actions that have been critiqued at length; I am saying that I can understand a bit better the words and actions of his supporters.
Thank you for your wise and timely comments. Indeed, sin and error knows no national, racial or ethnic boundaries. What we may have here may be more of cultural misunderstandings than anything else. I am thinking that the distinction should be between western and "old-country" cultures, attitudes and expectations--not necessarily regarding ecclesiology but more so regarding the general approach to authority. I am cradle and I am off-the-boat naturalized citizen. Yet, I think I have accepted and internalized the American/Anglophone attitude to individual freedom and to authority. Indeed, no kings or foreign potentates for me and nobody is my master except the Lord. However, I can understand if other foreigners like me have not accepted western political beliefs and assimilated like I have. Perhaps, personal loyalty to a leader is an indispensable part of their cultural and psychological makeup; thus, you have expressions of loyalty and obeisance to Metropolitan Philip that grate on my ears but perhaps are purely normal in another culture.
What we have is truly a hodgepodge where stereotypes cannot hold. I see that variety in the postings of Michael Srour and Samia Habib above, or those of Father Matta Koury in The Antiochian blog (http://www.theantiochian.com/site/?p=505) and Archimandrite Touma (Bittar). So, the bottom line for me is that, at this time, it may be sufficient to better understand each other and to make allowances for these cultural differences. This is in no way to say that I approve Metropolitan Philip's actions that have been critiqued at length; I am saying that I can understand a bit better the words and actions of his supporters.
#143
Carl
on
2009-08-18 09:24
A rather disingenuous explanation (with no mention of the threats to the OCA hierarchy of course) is now to be found over on the official Archdiocesan website entitled "Statement Issued by Metropolitan's Office Regarding Placement of Antiochian Seminarians." ( http://www.antiochian.org/node/20271 )
Perhaps it is just me, bit I almost get the impression that Philip is enjoying this entirely self-induced fiasco - much like a bored cat toying with mice. I pray to God that he will soon repent of treating these future priests and their families in such a shameful manner.
Perhaps it is just me, bit I almost get the impression that Philip is enjoying this entirely self-induced fiasco - much like a bored cat toying with mice. I pray to God that he will soon repent of treating these future priests and their families in such a shameful manner.
#144
Heracleides
on
2009-08-18 10:09
A rather disingenuous explanation (with no mention of the threats to the OCA hierarchy of course) is now to be found over on the official Archdiocesan website entitled "Statement Issued by Metropolitan's Office Regarding Placement of Antiochian Seminarians." ( http://www.antiochian.org/node/20271 )
Perhaps it is just me, but I am getting the impression that Philip is enjoying this entirely self-induced fiasco - much like a bored cat toying with mice. I pray to God that he will soon repent of treating these future priests and their families in such a shameful manner.
Heracleides
Perhaps it is just me, but I am getting the impression that Philip is enjoying this entirely self-induced fiasco - much like a bored cat toying with mice. I pray to God that he will soon repent of treating these future priests and their families in such a shameful manner.
Heracleides
#145
Heracleides
on
2009-08-18 10:12
What we need is someone in the Greek Archdioces to step up and fulfill the prophetic role like Mark Stokoe.....Harry Coin? 
#146
Antionymous
on
2009-08-18 10:55
Fr Patrick, why do you continue to excuse Met Philip with "Oh, we grew too fast...it's the system's fault... the Met just didn't think about the practical difficultes..."? That is just nonsense. He is a calculating, vindictive despot. If my 3 yr old threw a tantrum like this, he would have been disciplined and given a visit to the "time out" chair. But as Metropolitan, +Philip gets excused for recurring poor manners and outrageously unChristian behavior.
To the Local Antiochian Synod - when will you start acting like one? The Archdiocese needs to make sure nothing like this happens again.
To the Local Antiochian Synod - when will you start acting like one? The Archdiocese needs to make sure nothing like this happens again.
#147
Anonymously sad about it all
on
2009-08-18 12:19
Earlier I stated that Philip beclowned himself. Now I go further: he is nothing but a gangster and as long as he is allowed to function in such a manner, those in his church are complicit in his malfeasance.
Nobody is fooled by his latest rationalization. He's not even a good liar anymore.
Nobody is fooled by his latest rationalization. He's not even a good liar anymore.
#148
George Michalopulos
on
2009-08-18 12:24
And can we believe it? Now the excuse is the chanting,...oh, yes, and balancing the number of students at each seminary. GIVE ME A BREAK!! I never saw the item where Philip threatened to pull the seminarians unless OCAnews.org was silenced. Did I miss it? Could I be directed to it? Perhaps it needs prominent placement now, beside this latest rationalization.
"As ye have done it to the least of these...."
And am I crazy, or did Met Phil ACTUALLY say that Steve Mathewes-Green and his very pregnant wife were planning to go to HC all the time, and maybe got confused and moved on the campus of the wrong seminary? REALLY???
And another thing: is there some site where I can get the email addresses for each bishop and the Patriarch? Perhaps they would appreciate direct contact from the little people, expressing our dismay and despair at this and other actions.
And I will you my saint's name until my Bishop says it is ok to come out!
"As ye have done it to the least of these...."
And am I crazy, or did Met Phil ACTUALLY say that Steve Mathewes-Green and his very pregnant wife were planning to go to HC all the time, and maybe got confused and moved on the campus of the wrong seminary? REALLY???
And another thing: is there some site where I can get the email addresses for each bishop and the Patriarch? Perhaps they would appreciate direct contact from the little people, expressing our dismay and despair at this and other actions.
And I will you my saint's name until my Bishop says it is ok to come out!
#149
pelagia
on
2009-08-18 12:27
Michael,
sic- "This is called be obedient to your MEtropolitan."
Is this what you were doing when I watched you physically haul a delegate off the floor of the General Convention, committing battery under California law? You're lucky that the guy you manhandled didn't sue the crap out of you and your parish for your actions. He certainly had every legal standing to do so.
Thuggish behavior such as yours has no place in this Archdiocese and, by taking such actions against a fellow Christian, you have completely marginalized anything you might have to say.
sic- "This is called be obedient to your MEtropolitan."
Is this what you were doing when I watched you physically haul a delegate off the floor of the General Convention, committing battery under California law? You're lucky that the guy you manhandled didn't sue the crap out of you and your parish for your actions. He certainly had every legal standing to do so.
Thuggish behavior such as yours has no place in this Archdiocese and, by taking such actions against a fellow Christian, you have completely marginalized anything you might have to say.
#150
James
on
2009-08-18 12:49
Yeesh. Sorry about the bold. Next time I'll preview.
#151
A Fellow Orthodox Christian
on
2009-08-18 12:56
Why continue to send money to MP who answers to NO ONE?
Resign from the Order of St Ignatius and support St Vladimir's and St Tikhon's Seminaries. Both are hurting financially.
MP has $20 million in the bank.
Do the people who donated that money have any say about how it is used?
Before you say yes, ask WHY HE IS AFRAID OF AN EXTERNAL AUDIT?
No checks to Englewood.
Send checks to the seminaries and to the seminarians.
Resign from the Order of St Ignatius and support St Vladimir's and St Tikhon's Seminaries. Both are hurting financially.
MP has $20 million in the bank.
Do the people who donated that money have any say about how it is used?
Before you say yes, ask WHY HE IS AFRAID OF AN EXTERNAL AUDIT?
No checks to Englewood.
Send checks to the seminaries and to the seminarians.
#152
betrayed once again
on
2009-08-18 13:00
Doesn't Metropolitan Philip realize that NOBODY believes him any more. Teaching seminarians Syro/Byzantine chants or whatever, is a poor excuse for his vindictive move toward St. Tikhon's and St. Vladimir's. It is simply too little and far too late. He has exhausted his credibility. He is spiteful and vindictive, and I am anon. and intended to remain that way until he is gone.
#153
anon
on
2009-08-18 13:48
Article 6: "It examines and determines the canonical status of local communities in the Region that have no reference to the most holy autocephalous Orthodox Churches."
#154
Neither Greek nor Jew
on
2009-08-18 13:49
It's exactly episodes like these that cause people NOT to trust our hierarchs. How can anyone trust a man who acts in such a manner? It's petty & sick. Then to justify this by envoking the Syro-Greek cultural relation is really ridiculous. Seminarians at SVS or STOTS have been taught their Byzantine music and chanting. The truth is that at Holy Cross, the Antiochian students are treated as 2nd class students and the cost is double what SVS is.
It really is time for + Philip to retire and a sane, American hierarch become Metropolitan. How long does the favorite son of the AOCA, Bishop Basil, have to wait?
It really is time for + Philip to retire and a sane, American hierarch become Metropolitan. How long does the favorite son of the AOCA, Bishop Basil, have to wait?
#155
Anonymous
on
2009-08-18 13:54
Fr Patrick,
I think that you are certainly on to something.
The Archdiocese of today is nothing like it was 30 years ago. The difficulty lies in the fact that just as the Archdiocese has changed tremendeously, so too must the leadership change. Now, not necessarily the persons, but the style and the mechanisms of leadership. It is a fact that the older one gets the more difficult change becomes. This is the main issue with our "local synod". As you know we have added more "wheels" to the the truck, to expand on your metaphor, but they are not really connected to the drive train, they are just coasting along, they are there for support and show. When they are all cleaned up and "shiney" at those hierarchical Divine Liturgies they certainly are a spectacle to see, but it is just that a spectacle. The engine is still connected only to +PHILIP. Our bishops know this, everyone knows this, the question is, will our beloved Metropolitan share the engine power? So far all we have seen is that he tried to reduce their authority using the Synod of Antioch, not much sharing going on there!
And as an aside, it wouldn't surprise me if he did not even know about the Matthews-Greens expecting a baby, he probably only found out after he made the decision and felt that he could not retract his decision for fear of loosing face.
I fear that our father in Christ is getting older and more inflexible, what he needs is a loving synod to care for him and allow him to gracefully enter into retirement but alas most of them are embittered either recently or in the years past as an "auxiliary".
I think that you are certainly on to something.
The Archdiocese of today is nothing like it was 30 years ago. The difficulty lies in the fact that just as the Archdiocese has changed tremendeously, so too must the leadership change. Now, not necessarily the persons, but the style and the mechanisms of leadership. It is a fact that the older one gets the more difficult change becomes. This is the main issue with our "local synod". As you know we have added more "wheels" to the the truck, to expand on your metaphor, but they are not really connected to the drive train, they are just coasting along, they are there for support and show. When they are all cleaned up and "shiney" at those hierarchical Divine Liturgies they certainly are a spectacle to see, but it is just that a spectacle. The engine is still connected only to +PHILIP. Our bishops know this, everyone knows this, the question is, will our beloved Metropolitan share the engine power? So far all we have seen is that he tried to reduce their authority using the Synod of Antioch, not much sharing going on there!
And as an aside, it wouldn't surprise me if he did not even know about the Matthews-Greens expecting a baby, he probably only found out after he made the decision and felt that he could not retract his decision for fear of loosing face.
I fear that our father in Christ is getting older and more inflexible, what he needs is a loving synod to care for him and allow him to gracefully enter into retirement but alas most of them are embittered either recently or in the years past as an "auxiliary".
#156
Delegate #1
on
2009-08-18 13:56
Fr. Patrick, with all due respect...I do not believe the problem is whether +Phillip's seminarians are going to have a rough go of it getting down to Boston...by rather WHY the Met is having them do this to begin with.
No mention is made by the Archdiocese of the fact (or is Stokoe lying?) that he was doing this as a means to punish the OCA's inability or unwillingness to silence Stokoe. THIS, in my mind, is the REAL problem here.
+Phillip has spilled his "little" scandal onto the OCA and is holding it accountable for his own mess. It IS revealing, but not of a communication problem amongst the overworked in Englewood.
He has no business trying to hurt the OCA or her seminaries.
Of course, maybe Stokoe is lying? That, however and sadly, doesn't seem to make nearly as much sense as the likelihood that +Phillip would try and strongarm the OCA with this sort of thing.
I do not envy your position Fr. Patrick...I want you to know that it is very delicate for the very reasons I note here. You and the AOCNA have my sincere prayers...but I believe it is time to stand up for the truth and for transparency.
No mention is made by the Archdiocese of the fact (or is Stokoe lying?) that he was doing this as a means to punish the OCA's inability or unwillingness to silence Stokoe. THIS, in my mind, is the REAL problem here.
+Phillip has spilled his "little" scandal onto the OCA and is holding it accountable for his own mess. It IS revealing, but not of a communication problem amongst the overworked in Englewood.
He has no business trying to hurt the OCA or her seminaries.
Of course, maybe Stokoe is lying? That, however and sadly, doesn't seem to make nearly as much sense as the likelihood that +Phillip would try and strongarm the OCA with this sort of thing.
I do not envy your position Fr. Patrick...I want you to know that it is very delicate for the very reasons I note here. You and the AOCNA have my sincere prayers...but I believe it is time to stand up for the truth and for transparency.
#157
irenaios
on
2009-08-18 14:02
Samia - I was at the same Conv. as you. It's nice to see planned social events and long time "friends" embracing each other. This is mt fourth (and probably last) convention. As to the parish sponsoring it, hard work yes, but a hotel in the great L.A. are would have been better. More attendees for spec. events plus meetings! No decent place to eat. The "Lakeview" bery costly and tired of Starbucks. Go out in the 112 heat to find a plaza wiuth sandwiches! Sorry, I wasn't that impressed and have seen beautiful hotels before!
As to "meetings", such time wasted with already printed reports distributed. Wed. meetings a waste as nothing discussed referred to at report time.
Civility with the Met. dominating "all"! I've seen better at a model railroad convention that had financial leadership problems, that I attended with my husband. We could have LEARNED something from the respect and demeanor of "delegates". No one signed in to the assemblies in P.S. with proxy env. in the hands of the respective clergy. Disenfranchised delegates when it came to a vote (?)on the audit. You can be assured the "Board" will never act on this as the Metropolitan will always claim, "the delegateswb did'nt want it!" Thank you opening false words b y Mr Laham. Good try Bishop Mark!
As to "meetings", such time wasted with already printed reports distributed. Wed. meetings a waste as nothing discussed referred to at report time.
Civility with the Met. dominating "all"! I've seen better at a model railroad convention that had financial leadership problems, that I attended with my husband. We could have LEARNED something from the respect and demeanor of "delegates". No one signed in to the assemblies in P.S. with proxy env. in the hands of the respective clergy. Disenfranchised delegates when it came to a vote (?)on the audit. You can be assured the "Board" will never act on this as the Metropolitan will always claim, "the delegateswb did'nt want it!" Thank you opening false words b y Mr Laham. Good try Bishop Mark!
#158
Anonymous
on
2009-08-18 14:25
I like the fact that "Ocanews must go" was changed to "Ocanews must go on" due to the fact that on is used as the preposition before the date. Classic.
#159
anonymous jokester
on
2009-08-18 16:11
I can understand your frustration with the Antiochians and your awareness of the many shortcomings of the OCA (thanks, OCANEWS!) but where does your bashing of Elder Ephraim and the monasteries he has established in this country come from?
I'm American. I'm not Greek. I don't speak Greek.
Elder Ephraim is my spiritual Grandfather. One of his spiritual sons is my spiritual Father. I and my family have been blessed beyond words through the ministrations of Elder Ephraim, and his spiritual sons and daughters (the Archimandrites, Priests, Abbesses, monks and nuns) here in America.
Your "And, no, Fr. Ephraim's 'We Only Speak Greek Here' roadside Mt. Athos museums don't count," shows not only your xenophobia but your willful ignorance bordering on the demonic.
Pittsburgh Magazine recently interviewed Troy Polamalu of the Super Bowl Champion Pittsburgh Steelers. Here we have a Samoan-American Californian, former evangelical Protestant who not only converted to Orthodoxy, but became a spiritual son of Elder Ephraim.
Read on and you will see how the MONASTERIES of Elder Ephraim count in a big way, not just for an NFL superstar but to regular ol' American Orthodox joes like myself.
The full interview can be read here:
http://www.wqed.org/mag/features/0809/troy-polamalu-pittsburgh-steelers-safety.php
I'm American. I'm not Greek. I don't speak Greek.
Elder Ephraim is my spiritual Grandfather. One of his spiritual sons is my spiritual Father. I and my family have been blessed beyond words through the ministrations of Elder Ephraim, and his spiritual sons and daughters (the Archimandrites, Priests, Abbesses, monks and nuns) here in America.
Your "And, no, Fr. Ephraim's 'We Only Speak Greek Here' roadside Mt. Athos museums don't count," shows not only your xenophobia but your willful ignorance bordering on the demonic.
Pittsburgh Magazine recently interviewed Troy Polamalu of the Super Bowl Champion Pittsburgh Steelers. Here we have a Samoan-American Californian, former evangelical Protestant who not only converted to Orthodoxy, but became a spiritual son of Elder Ephraim.
Read on and you will see how the MONASTERIES of Elder Ephraim count in a big way, not just for an NFL superstar but to regular ol' American Orthodox joes like myself.
The full interview can be read here:
http://www.wqed.org/mag/features/0809/troy-polamalu-pittsburgh-steelers-safety.php
#160
Anonymous
on
2009-08-18 17:19
And a subdeacon who was suspended because HE was divorced!
Welcome to sexual ethics 101 as taught by Metropolitan Philip.
Welcome to sexual ethics 101 as taught by Metropolitan Philip.
#161
Phileas
on
2009-08-18 17:43
Are MP and Bp Antoun and their cronies so clueless?
If the Metropolitan of the OCA could control Mark Stokoe, then Metropolitan Herman would still be in charge.
If it were reasonable to believe
the OCAnews (Orthodox Christian for Accountability)
was controlled by the OCA (Orthodox Church in America),
then it would also be reasonable to believe that AOCANA (Association of Orthodox Christian Attornies of North America)
is controlled by AOCANA (Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America).
One would also assume theantiochian.org was under the direct control of the AOCANA as well.
Then again the latter is more likely than the former.
It is very sad that MP and Bp Antoun are punishing the seminaries and the students because they are totally out of touch with reality.
They have no concept of the modern world.
Please do not continue to support the AOCANA or the Order of St Ignatius UNTIL MP and Bp ANTOUN are GONE, GONE, GONE
They only have as much authority as we allow them to have.
If the Metropolitan of the OCA could control Mark Stokoe, then Metropolitan Herman would still be in charge.
If it were reasonable to believe
the OCAnews (Orthodox Christian for Accountability)
was controlled by the OCA (Orthodox Church in America),
then it would also be reasonable to believe that AOCANA (Association of Orthodox Christian Attornies of North America)
is controlled by AOCANA (Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America).
One would also assume theantiochian.org was under the direct control of the AOCANA as well.
Then again the latter is more likely than the former.
It is very sad that MP and Bp Antoun are punishing the seminaries and the students because they are totally out of touch with reality.
They have no concept of the modern world.
Please do not continue to support the AOCANA or the Order of St Ignatius UNTIL MP and Bp ANTOUN are GONE, GONE, GONE
They only have as much authority as we allow them to have.
#162
anon and anon
on
2009-08-18 20:03
Fr. Pat,
You know I love you. Like you, I try to give our Metropolitan the benefit of any doubt. The problem for many of us with this and other of his actions recently (as well as in the past when he has been questioned) is that His Eminence makes it so difficult to believe what he says. The official explanation...
"While all three schools have helped us in accomplishing this task for generations of clergymen, we feel Holy Cross most closely mirrors the practices and customs of the Patriarchate of Antioch in general and the Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America in particular."
...sounds reasonable enough, but we are being asked to believe that somehow this thought just occurred to him (or Bp. Antoun or whoever else decides such matters). Was this an oversight? If so, say so! We all make mistakes and oversights. I want to believe him; I really do! But I think you'd have to admit that his actions of late are making it increasingly difficult to do so.
When this is added to the very legitimate questions arising from the Episcopal "crisis" and the outright unilateral dismissal of a duly seconded motion at the convention I confess that my sense of confidence and trust is eroding. I truly wish it were not. A degree of outrage at those who would question the motives of His Eminence is fully understandable. What I find increasingly difficult to understand is the lack of transparency in the affairs of the Archdiocese. We must avoid even the appearance of evil. This doesn’t need to be a scandal, but sadly the lack of transparency has turned it into one.
Many years and good health to you, Father!
You know I love you. Like you, I try to give our Metropolitan the benefit of any doubt. The problem for many of us with this and other of his actions recently (as well as in the past when he has been questioned) is that His Eminence makes it so difficult to believe what he says. The official explanation...
"While all three schools have helped us in accomplishing this task for generations of clergymen, we feel Holy Cross most closely mirrors the practices and customs of the Patriarchate of Antioch in general and the Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America in particular."
...sounds reasonable enough, but we are being asked to believe that somehow this thought just occurred to him (or Bp. Antoun or whoever else decides such matters). Was this an oversight? If so, say so! We all make mistakes and oversights. I want to believe him; I really do! But I think you'd have to admit that his actions of late are making it increasingly difficult to do so.
When this is added to the very legitimate questions arising from the Episcopal "crisis" and the outright unilateral dismissal of a duly seconded motion at the convention I confess that my sense of confidence and trust is eroding. I truly wish it were not. A degree of outrage at those who would question the motives of His Eminence is fully understandable. What I find increasingly difficult to understand is the lack of transparency in the affairs of the Archdiocese. We must avoid even the appearance of evil. This doesn’t need to be a scandal, but sadly the lack of transparency has turned it into one.
Many years and good health to you, Father!
#163
Brian
on
2009-08-18 20:06
The last part of you comment is totally uncalled for. Geronta Ephraim has humbly worked to establish monastic houses where many, many, many souls have found the Lord. Disagree if you will about the choice of language, but to call those holy places "museums" as if to imply spiritual coldness and indifference, is a great injustice to all of us, hundreds if not thousands, who have found in these monasteries a spiritual home. But, I suppose you are free to ridicule Fr. Ephraim.
#164
Anonymous
on
2009-08-18 20:31
Yes, an Istanbul Orthodox mafia led by an Ecumenical "Patriarch" that has just defrocked Fr. Daniel Byantoro, the founder and faithful stalwart of the Indonesian Orthodox Church. For the record, this abuse was immediately and formally nullified by Met. Hilarion of ROCOR who is Fr. Dan's patron. The EP then sent Met. Hilarion an obsequious letter of disappoint full of insincere, pious drivel. The sooner we stop looking to Istanbul for world leadership, the better.
#165
Anon.
on
2009-08-18 20:37
The desire to have our seminarians formed in the "Syro-Byzantine" tradition, rather than Slavic tradition (and it's more than chant--at points where Greek and Slavic liturgical practice varies, we Antiochians tend to follow the Greek practice) might be a reasonable argument for sending future seminarians to Holy Cross, or for a decision to send the three entering seminary this year to Holy Cross had it taken at the time they were given blessings to attend another seminary. It is not a reasonable argument--indeed there is no reasonable argument--for suddenly telling young men, young families, who had been making plans to attend a seminary they had received a blessing to attend to drop those plans, and on three weeks notice make housing and moving arrangements to attend a different seminary.
Is the Archdiocese bearing the cost of the Matthewes-Green family's move from Westchester Co. to Brookline? If not, is the extra exposure to Greek liturgics really of such benefit to a future priest in our Archdiocese that it is worth the extra cost to them (even leaving aside the already much remarked needless hardship of forcing a family to move when they are about to bring a child into the world)? If the Archdiocese did pay the cost, adding that to the much higher tuition costs at Holy Cross, is the extra exposure to Greek liturgics really of such benefit to the Archdiocese to justify the extra expenditure of money?
Similarly, is the Archdiocese reimbursing the other seminarian(s?) who had planned to attend St. Tikhon's for extra expenses incurred by the hastily decreed change of plans?
I am sure if we are--or even if we aren't, HC being much more expensive than SVS or STOS--Met. +Philip would tell us we have no right to second-guess his cost-benefit analysis, because he is paying for them to attend seminary. No he is not. We , the donors who put money in the Seminarian Tray, the donors whose parish donations make up the required amount if their parish's tray comes up short, the donors who gave to the Order of St. Ignatius or whatever other appeals are used to support seminarians, are paying for them to attend seminary. And whether out of pique at Mark Stokoe, or a sudden aversion to exposing our seminarians to All-Night Vigils, Met. +Philip is wasting our money. No, not our money, not his money, the Church's money.
Given the intent of Canon 26 of Chalcedon "that the goods of the Church not be squandered, nor reproach brought upon the priesthood", while it certainly possible for a bishop (or priest or layman with fiduciary responsibilities) to waste Church monies legally under secular law, one might wonder whether it is possible to do so under canon law, and if not, whether wasting Church money is not always sinful, whether voluntary or involuntary.
Is the Archdiocese bearing the cost of the Matthewes-Green family's move from Westchester Co. to Brookline? If not, is the extra exposure to Greek liturgics really of such benefit to a future priest in our Archdiocese that it is worth the extra cost to them (even leaving aside the already much remarked needless hardship of forcing a family to move when they are about to bring a child into the world)? If the Archdiocese did pay the cost, adding that to the much higher tuition costs at Holy Cross, is the extra exposure to Greek liturgics really of such benefit to the Archdiocese to justify the extra expenditure of money?
Similarly, is the Archdiocese reimbursing the other seminarian(s?) who had planned to attend St. Tikhon's for extra expenses incurred by the hastily decreed change of plans?
I am sure if we are--or even if we aren't, HC being much more expensive than SVS or STOS--Met. +Philip would tell us we have no right to second-guess his cost-benefit analysis, because he is paying for them to attend seminary. No he is not. We , the donors who put money in the Seminarian Tray, the donors whose parish donations make up the required amount if their parish's tray comes up short, the donors who gave to the Order of St. Ignatius or whatever other appeals are used to support seminarians, are paying for them to attend seminary. And whether out of pique at Mark Stokoe, or a sudden aversion to exposing our seminarians to All-Night Vigils, Met. +Philip is wasting our money. No, not our money, not his money, the Church's money.
Given the intent of Canon 26 of Chalcedon "that the goods of the Church not be squandered, nor reproach brought upon the priesthood", while it certainly possible for a bishop (or priest or layman with fiduciary responsibilities) to waste Church monies legally under secular law, one might wonder whether it is possible to do so under canon law, and if not, whether wasting Church money is not always sinful, whether voluntary or involuntary.
#166
Subdeacon David [Yetter]
on
2009-08-18 20:42
I'm sure that Holy Cross would be glad to give any money to the seminarians if a note was included requesting that it be used for that purpose. Perhaps someone could call and confirm that?
#167
BJ
on
2009-08-18 20:49
Re: Bishop Demetri. I was in the room when Sarah Hodges stood up to speak. I have never met her, and could barely see her from the other side of the room, but I want to commend her for her presentation. She was respectful, polite, calm, very strong in the information she was trying to share with others. She is the model of what every Orthodox Christian should be - simply loving God enough to insist that the right thing be done. There were many people in the assembly room who laughed at her, made crude jokes, shouted out rude comments to her. They were hardly what I would call representative of our faith, especially the priest sitting at the table next to mine who yelled out loudly, "Get out of our Archdiocese." Sarah was doing the right thing, and she never wavered in her quest to have justice done, and yet MP allowed these people to make fun of her. If he truly cared, MP would have asked/told the rude, disrespectful people to leave the room and return when and if they could behave like mature adults. I also heard people shouting out near her something rude about women - don't know who they were, but this kind of behavior should not be tolerated in a general assembly Church Meeting. This is the kind of behavior that goes on at political conventions, not Church conventions. The new chancellor was well prepared to respond to her, as he begged MP to allow him to answer. He immediately said "it was the Patriarch's decision." How do we know that? Has anyone contacted the Patriarch or the Holy Synod of Antioch to determine if this was truly his wish and what other options were available? Many things were said in those two days that were not accurate, and those of us who took good notes and were aware of individual situations know the truth. Was this another way to control the situation and avoid voting on it? If the Patriarch truly wants Bishop Demetri to return to active duty, let him find a place for him and pay his salary. We have laws in our country to protect people against those who break the laws, and honoring laws and accepting consequences is what avoids chaos, which is what our Archdiocese is in right now. God bless you, Sarah, for continuing to respond to the chancellor and to MP, even though it was very clear they were determined to dismiss this subject quickly. It's very sad that because MP didn't agree with her, that he took the perogative to not vote on the matter and move on to other work. Sarah followed proper procedures, remained calm, professional and Christian and was still hushed up and turned down. I guess it doesn't matter how you present your case. How many times has this happened in this past, with or without our knowledge, and how many times will it continue to happen in the future? When people react this way, they are hiding something. What is it? I'm sorry I didn't get to meet Sarah later, but I hope that chance will come up in the future. Sarah Hodges - you rock.
Troy Polamalu is Orhodox? I've wondered if Orthodoxy would be very appealing to Polynesians in Hawaii (yeah I see he was born in CA but it brings up the same questions). If a foreign ethnicity was not pushed it would certainly work -- although giving up plate lunches for a good, solid percent of the year might be difficult. But thank you for the heads up.
#169
R. Stevenson
on
2009-08-18 22:51
It has little to do with "manners" and everything to do with finances. The seminary has a massive budget deficit, and most OCA students are incurring massive amounts of debt simply to be here. It is impractical, and unjust to the existing OCA students, to suddenly offer full scholarships to a handfull of antiochian students in a very difficult situation without also being able to offer the same scholarship to the existing OCA seminarians.
#170
Anonymous
on
2009-08-18 22:52
>>"Doesn't Metropolitan Philip realize that NOBODY believes him any more."
Umm, no. Isn't this obvious?
Umm, no. Isn't this obvious?
#171
Anonymous
on
2009-08-18 23:11
Yes, Michael Srour, I too witnessede the poor spectacle at the Convention. As Co-Chair of the onv. you and the lawyer friend from L.A. should have known better. All you had to do was ask that the 13pg reports on AUDITS NEEDED be distributed out in the hallway. An observing Bishop tried to intercede.
What do YOU know that you wanted to HIDE ?? Again, shame on you and this host committee! Your a computer wonder, we're told, then please apply to work in Englewood with your "God protected friends", as if the rest of us were not God protecrted! So pleased the manhandled were also God protected.
What do YOU know that you wanted to HIDE ?? Again, shame on you and this host committee! Your a computer wonder, we're told, then please apply to work in Englewood with your "God protected friends", as if the rest of us were not God protecrted! So pleased the manhandled were also God protected.
#172
Anonymous
on
2009-08-19 00:35
This may sound odd given the current climate but if Metropolitan Philip is any or all of the things he has been called on this and other www sites wouldn't Christian mercy compel us to pray for him?
I'm not speaking of suspending constructive critique or foregoing speaking the truth in love, honesty (seasoned with a goodly amount of self awareness) is vitally important in these times. Yet if one is convinced that Metropolitan Philip is on the wrong track, that he is doing destructive things, wouldn't it also compel those same people to intercede on his behalf if for no other reason then to free him from darkness?
The desire to crush, kill, and feel powerful can often be masked by a feeling of righteousness. In all the comments posted and even the anonymous thoughts of our hearts we need to take care not to relish these events. If we believe that sin is present we should point it out but with sadness and the hope that we, too, may not fall. At all costs we need to starve off any part of us that lusts for the kill or sees these times like a wolf in the presence of a wounded animal.
Metropolitan Philip will stand before God for all he says and does but we also should remember that so will we.
Fr John Chagnon
St. Elias Orthodox Church
LaCrosse, WI
I'm not speaking of suspending constructive critique or foregoing speaking the truth in love, honesty (seasoned with a goodly amount of self awareness) is vitally important in these times. Yet if one is convinced that Metropolitan Philip is on the wrong track, that he is doing destructive things, wouldn't it also compel those same people to intercede on his behalf if for no other reason then to free him from darkness?
The desire to crush, kill, and feel powerful can often be masked by a feeling of righteousness. In all the comments posted and even the anonymous thoughts of our hearts we need to take care not to relish these events. If we believe that sin is present we should point it out but with sadness and the hope that we, too, may not fall. At all costs we need to starve off any part of us that lusts for the kill or sees these times like a wolf in the presence of a wounded animal.
Metropolitan Philip will stand before God for all he says and does but we also should remember that so will we.
Fr John Chagnon
St. Elias Orthodox Church
LaCrosse, WI
Silly, sillier and silliest. Why is it that everytime His Eminence attempts to explain himself this progression is always in play?
Petty vindictive retaliation is one thing but compounding the offense with a deceitful explanation just makes it worse.
I prefer he would merely carry out his deeds without the aid of ridiculous and awkward justifications.
Leave bad enough alone.
Petty vindictive retaliation is one thing but compounding the offense with a deceitful explanation just makes it worse.
I prefer he would merely carry out his deeds without the aid of ridiculous and awkward justifications.
Leave bad enough alone.
#174
Kevin Kirwan
on
2009-08-19 07:06
I joined the Orthodox Church a number of years ago shortly after the EOC became part of the Antiochians. I went to seminary. Despite my desire to turn over ever rock and search every corner for the "Truth". I still do not understand why one has to become "Greek" or "Lebanese" or "Russian" in order to considered "truly" part of the church.
My prayer and hope is that the Church would truly become one united church, instead of this defacto denominalization that has occurred. A church that celebrates its multiplicity of cultures in one tradition. Through the prayers of the Holy Fathers, Lord Jesus Christ save us. Amen.
My prayer and hope is that the Church would truly become one united church, instead of this defacto denominalization that has occurred. A church that celebrates its multiplicity of cultures in one tradition. Through the prayers of the Holy Fathers, Lord Jesus Christ save us. Amen.
#175
Deacon
on
2009-08-19 07:46
Anonymous,
This was intelligent because I'm not a monk, I am struggling to be a good christian but NOT a monastic. Yes we can incorporate monasticism in our lives if we choose, but Christ did not say to live like a monastic because many of the things that monastics do is not what everyday people do in society. I'm not going to be a monastic and also be a salesman - doesn't work like that. How can you be a monastic and be married. how can you be a monastic and yet be in a community where you are tempted by everyday things as simple as pumping gas station, driving off and getting rear ended and you get in a verbal argument. Shall I be quiet and pray for the individual while he yells at me. How can i be a monastic when I want to be married, or choose to be married to a woman. How can I be a monastic when we watch t.v. and see racy commercials. how can i be a monastic when i try to hustle to make a living to pay the bills and sometimes as a salesman you have to say things to get the sale. Is that Christian - to embellish a bit or say what people want to hear when you know otherwise. It's a doggy dog world and we who CHOOSE to stay in society must do what we need to do and ask for repentence and try our best to live, work in society and be the best Christian possible. If I wanted to be a monastic i would live in a remote space ALONE like they did a 1,000 years ago.
This was intelligent because I'm not a monk, I am struggling to be a good christian but NOT a monastic. Yes we can incorporate monasticism in our lives if we choose, but Christ did not say to live like a monastic because many of the things that monastics do is not what everyday people do in society. I'm not going to be a monastic and also be a salesman - doesn't work like that. How can you be a monastic and be married. how can you be a monastic and yet be in a community where you are tempted by everyday things as simple as pumping gas station, driving off and getting rear ended and you get in a verbal argument. Shall I be quiet and pray for the individual while he yells at me. How can i be a monastic when I want to be married, or choose to be married to a woman. How can I be a monastic when we watch t.v. and see racy commercials. how can i be a monastic when i try to hustle to make a living to pay the bills and sometimes as a salesman you have to say things to get the sale. Is that Christian - to embellish a bit or say what people want to hear when you know otherwise. It's a doggy dog world and we who CHOOSE to stay in society must do what we need to do and ask for repentence and try our best to live, work in society and be the best Christian possible. If I wanted to be a monastic i would live in a remote space ALONE like they did a 1,000 years ago.
#176
William
on
2009-08-19 08:26
The whole "Syro-Byzantine" excuse is a complete joke! HCHC isn't exactly the the mecca of Byzantine Chant in the in this country, or anywhere else for that matter. Heck, the last I was told, it is not even a required course for seminarians, but it is an elective. That goes to show just how "serious" HCHC takes Byzantine Chant. Has Met. Phillip even HEARD the GOA's "Byzantine Chant" tradition in the last 50 years? For those of us who actually attempt to learn traditional Byzantine Chant in opposition to the majority of the GOA, this excuse is simply laughable. There are a few really good psaltis who have come out of HCHC, but as far as I know, they graduated years back when it was a required course. Today all the great cantors in the GOA learned in Greece, or were taught by someone who learned in Greece. Put another way, NO ONE is going to HCHC to learn Byzantine Chant. Period!
#177
Chuck Shingledecker
on
2009-08-19 08:38
"This also highlights, yet again, how much the AOANA cares about the needs and concerns of women."
I know the author of the previous post is referring to the seminarian wives affected by +Philip's decision, but I'm going to jump off this for a moment.
Not too many years ago I made the decision to apply to seminary. I received my Bishop's blessing, followed all requirements, etc., etc. However a short time later I received a letter from +Philip's offices informing me that there were not enough funds available to assist me in any financial way. I was a little disappointed but just worked harder that summer and received a some help from my home parish.
When I arrived at seminary and began learning the ropes, I realized that NONE of the antiochian women seminarians received any aid, while ALL of the men had. Now, I'm not here to argue women's rights or anything of that sort. But it just struck me as a bit of a slap in the face back then. I know it's important to fund young men, both single and married, for future ministry in the church. But I wonder why it's so unimportant to Englewood to cultivate theologically educated women. There are other positions in the parish: christian education, liturgical music, evangelism, and even being the priest's wife that would greatly benefit.
Ultimately, we gals may have lucked out in that we didn't have to rake the leaves at the Metropolitan's residence in Englewood. And the seminary was very kind to us, but just like the rest of the OCA seminarians who are just as poor as the antiochian guys, we gals had to earn our tuition on our own.
I know the author of the previous post is referring to the seminarian wives affected by +Philip's decision, but I'm going to jump off this for a moment.
Not too many years ago I made the decision to apply to seminary. I received my Bishop's blessing, followed all requirements, etc., etc. However a short time later I received a letter from +Philip's offices informing me that there were not enough funds available to assist me in any financial way. I was a little disappointed but just worked harder that summer and received a some help from my home parish.
When I arrived at seminary and began learning the ropes, I realized that NONE of the antiochian women seminarians received any aid, while ALL of the men had. Now, I'm not here to argue women's rights or anything of that sort. But it just struck me as a bit of a slap in the face back then. I know it's important to fund young men, both single and married, for future ministry in the church. But I wonder why it's so unimportant to Englewood to cultivate theologically educated women. There are other positions in the parish: christian education, liturgical music, evangelism, and even being the priest's wife that would greatly benefit.
Ultimately, we gals may have lucked out in that we didn't have to rake the leaves at the Metropolitan's residence in Englewood. And the seminary was very kind to us, but just like the rest of the OCA seminarians who are just as poor as the antiochian guys, we gals had to earn our tuition on our own.
#178
anon antiochian gal
on
2009-08-19 09:07
Very well said Fr.John. We should all pray that our Lord will help Met. Philip come to repentance. However until that repentance is demonstrated, I believe we have a collective responsibility not to enable him to continue to harm the Church.
#179
Marc Trolinger
on
2009-08-19 09:23
Can I please just make it clear that only about 2/3 of the seminarians (in an MDiv. program) are on the scholarship? All this talk about who pays what--keep in mind that some of these future clergy are at seminary on their own dime.
#180
Anonymous
on
2009-08-19 09:27
I want sincerely to express my gratitude to all those who responded to my recent message.
Let me mention why I speak with circumspection in these troubled times: Metropolitan Philip is not in his prime. It is statistically improbable that he will be our Archbishop much longer. This is a reasonable hypothesis, no matter how one feels about it, nor is it disrespectful to the Metropolitan to mention this circumstance.
However I may assess recent decisions of the Metropolitan, this Archdiocese is going to outlive him (even if I don't!). Throughout the difficult business of this past year, I have tried to keep one question vividly in my mind: What sort of Archdiocese will we have after Metropolitan Philip is gone? I have steadfastly tried not to say anything which would weaken or hurt the Archdiocese.
Father George Shaloub and I have had occasion to converse on this subject. Both of us are concerned that this Archdiocese may tear itself apart by reason of the controversies of this troubled year.
He and I are resolved that this must not happen, but we fear that it might. Indeed, in my two decades in the service of this Archdiocese, I have never seen it so torn with strife and bad feelings. This is dreadfully troubling.
I am not afraid of Metropolitan Philip, nor has he ever---by the slightest hint or suggestion---given me a reason to be. He has ever treated me with pastoral solicitude and respect.
If I should feel some disposition to criticize Metropolitan Philip in public, I would feel an enormous restraint. It is not that I fear Metropolitan Philip, but I fear God.
I cannot forget that Metropolitan Philip consecrated the Sacred Chrism that I have spread on the brow of hundreds of new Orthodox Christians over the past 20 years. And each time I unfold the antimins on our parish altar, I see his name there, authorizing our congregation's celebration of the Holy Eucharist. I should at least respect these two facts, which go to the heart of our identity.
All of these considerations make me very concerned for my pastoral responsibilities in these difficult times. This is why I have not posted a single word anonymously on these blog sites: We have an Archdiocese to protect. Let's not destroy it. We want it to be here long after Metropolitan Philip is no longer our Archbishop.
Meanwhile, I thank all of you for your kind restraint in not commenting on my remark: "There is no doubt that Englewood now has a publican relations nightmare on its hands right now."
Instead of thinking it a mistake that I wrote "publican" in place of "public," you probably presume that I meant, "This whole business is driving me to drink."
Let me mention why I speak with circumspection in these troubled times: Metropolitan Philip is not in his prime. It is statistically improbable that he will be our Archbishop much longer. This is a reasonable hypothesis, no matter how one feels about it, nor is it disrespectful to the Metropolitan to mention this circumstance.
However I may assess recent decisions of the Metropolitan, this Archdiocese is going to outlive him (even if I don't!). Throughout the difficult business of this past year, I have tried to keep one question vividly in my mind: What sort of Archdiocese will we have after Metropolitan Philip is gone? I have steadfastly tried not to say anything which would weaken or hurt the Archdiocese.
Father George Shaloub and I have had occasion to converse on this subject. Both of us are concerned that this Archdiocese may tear itself apart by reason of the controversies of this troubled year.
He and I are resolved that this must not happen, but we fear that it might. Indeed, in my two decades in the service of this Archdiocese, I have never seen it so torn with strife and bad feelings. This is dreadfully troubling.
I am not afraid of Metropolitan Philip, nor has he ever---by the slightest hint or suggestion---given me a reason to be. He has ever treated me with pastoral solicitude and respect.
If I should feel some disposition to criticize Metropolitan Philip in public, I would feel an enormous restraint. It is not that I fear Metropolitan Philip, but I fear God.
I cannot forget that Metropolitan Philip consecrated the Sacred Chrism that I have spread on the brow of hundreds of new Orthodox Christians over the past 20 years. And each time I unfold the antimins on our parish altar, I see his name there, authorizing our congregation's celebration of the Holy Eucharist. I should at least respect these two facts, which go to the heart of our identity.
All of these considerations make me very concerned for my pastoral responsibilities in these difficult times. This is why I have not posted a single word anonymously on these blog sites: We have an Archdiocese to protect. Let's not destroy it. We want it to be here long after Metropolitan Philip is no longer our Archbishop.
Meanwhile, I thank all of you for your kind restraint in not commenting on my remark: "There is no doubt that Englewood now has a publican relations nightmare on its hands right now."
Instead of thinking it a mistake that I wrote "publican" in place of "public," you probably presume that I meant, "This whole business is driving me to drink."
#181
Father Patrick Reardon
on
2009-08-19 09:35
The Syro-Byzantine......WHAAAAT?? If there were such a thing, is there any reason at all to think Philip would know anything about it? The "Antiochian" patriarchate is more Slavic than most. It was invented by the Russians about a hundred years ago to keep it from being completely Greek. No wonder HC looks so sensible to him.
It seems that just a few days ago the "Auxilliary" bishops were vindicated as "diocisan" ones. Maybe if they acted like one they'd get treated like one? One or all need to call Antoun or whoever answers phones there, and announce that the seminarian from X-diocese will be attending whatever seminary he was originally intended to. The tuition will be in the hands of the seminary, now. If not, the archdiocese will receive that much less money as the diocese will pay it. Understand? Let the bishops act like bishops. Then they'll be taken more seriously by everyone including Philip. Waiting for it to happen.
It seems that just a few days ago the "Auxilliary" bishops were vindicated as "diocisan" ones. Maybe if they acted like one they'd get treated like one? One or all need to call Antoun or whoever answers phones there, and announce that the seminarian from X-diocese will be attending whatever seminary he was originally intended to. The tuition will be in the hands of the seminary, now. If not, the archdiocese will receive that much less money as the diocese will pay it. Understand? Let the bishops act like bishops. Then they'll be taken more seriously by everyone including Philip. Waiting for it to happen.
#182
Ba'ab
on
2009-08-19 11:29
Re: transcripts of motion on Bishop Demetri - MP responded to Sarah Hodges by saying, "In the spirit of charity, in the spirit of charity, personally, I'd like to help him." The spirit of charity is not just about money. It's about doing the right thing, about kindness, consideration, treating others with respect. We can do things for Bishop Demetri in a charitable way without making him an active bishop again. Who knows how the vote would have gone, but MP didn't allow it. "I spoke. I don't want to vote on it." Where was his charitable attitude towards the entire Archdiocese, and to this young woman who maintained an appropriate attitude during the entire lengthy exchange, despite the mistreatment on the part of many clergy/laity? I guess only his voice mattered in that room filled with many delegates who travelled long distances and spent lots of money to do so, in order to be in attendance, and then to be treated that way. In these economic times, I'm sure it was a great hardship for many, especially if they had to leave family members behind, take 3-4 planes from the east coast and deal with airport delays, etc. Charity begins within the walls of our Archdiocese, where we treat one another in the way we would want to be treated.
We happened to have met Fr. Daniel. Can more info about this disaster be provided?
Many thanks and please, everyone, keep Fr. Daniel, his work and his parishioners in your prayers. Indonesia is a very difficult mission field.
Many thanks and please, everyone, keep Fr. Daniel, his work and his parishioners in your prayers. Indonesia is a very difficult mission field.
#184
pelagia
on
2009-08-19 12:37
Just for the sake of some info to William. St.Tikhons Seminary has graduated over 300. Mostly OCA. Maybe 5 became monks because thats what they wanted to be before they went to the Seminary.No one in the monastery persuaded them. The vast majority who became Priest had no problem finding a wife,even though they were "way out there" in South Canaan. Many had girlfriends from their own parish,hometown,or met a girl while on a choir mission trip...or,who came to the Monastery Pilgrimmage on Memorial Day.Probably 98% of the priests from St.Tikhons Seminary were and are married. Just thought you would like to know.............
#185
Anon
on
2009-08-19 13:59
The scholarship is there to help provide the archdiocese with priests. Male seminarian who are not on priestly tract, don't recieve a scholarship either....
#186
Antionymous
on
2009-08-19 14:02
William,
All of us, whether monastic or not, are called to live the same life. We are all called to the same standards. We are all called to resist temptation, even if the manners of resisting it are different. Monastics are tempted by the same things we are. St. John of the Ladder compares the monastery to a rock tumbler. In your example, yes when other people get mad at us, we should be silent and pray for them. Christ told us to turn the other cheek. We, as Christians, are called not to live as the world lives, but as God calls us to live.
In Christ,
Justin
All of us, whether monastic or not, are called to live the same life. We are all called to the same standards. We are all called to resist temptation, even if the manners of resisting it are different. Monastics are tempted by the same things we are. St. John of the Ladder compares the monastery to a rock tumbler. In your example, yes when other people get mad at us, we should be silent and pray for them. Christ told us to turn the other cheek. We, as Christians, are called not to live as the world lives, but as God calls us to live.
In Christ,
Justin
#187
Justin
on
2009-08-19 14:19
Fr. Patrick,
And here I thought "publican" was a clever play on words.
It is my understanding that Sacred Chrism can only be consecrated by autocephalous churches. Thus wouldn't the Sacred Chrism used by Antiochians have been consecrated by the Patriarch of Antioch, or is this another canonical innovation found in the AOANA, or, is my understanding of these matters incorrect?
In any event, I was Chrismated with Sacred Chrism which had been consecrated by a man reported to have been a drunken abuser who occasionally went for male gardeners and who handed his Synod over to another man who nearly drove it into the ground. I do not consider my Chrismation "invalid" or some such because of this. I am glad that men exposed the lies and violences that needed exposing. I am glad that there is more sound rule now in that Synod. There have been the names of imposters and fiends on antimins before. I think it a rather Orthodox thing to admit as much without questioning the "validity" of the Mysteries of altar and font.
As for Father George Shaloub, if he defends Klinger in the altar, then why should an Orthodox Christian want to be in communion with him? At a certain point things reach a level of ridiculous which demands a, albeit Christian in circumspection, ridicule and rejection.
We have heard for years a bragging on the part of +MP concerning how the AOANA was at the forefront of discerning and presenting an "American Orthodoxy" and now we find that this provides for us an obvious attempt to reduce and control the rule of fellow bishops, Klingerdoxy, mobsters, the unmitigated hubris of a fourth verse of Many Years, the dismissing of Sarah Hodges' concerns, the rejection of audits, and much more of the like. It seems to me perfectly in keeping with Orthodox identity to cry ANAXIOS when the situation becomes this unOrthodox.
All that said, I am also concerned about what will happen in the AOANA when +MP retires. I see no reason why his replacement might not continue the awful culture we see running the AOANA. Perhaps a parting of ways is not the worst scenario. Perhaps the "American Orthodoxy" of a group of folks that seem increasingly committed to circling their wagon around Arab ethnicity should be allowed to run its course on its own. They could take +Antoun, and leave us with some of the non-gambling bishops. I seriously doubt this scenario would ever play out, but I frankly think it might be better than what lies ahead.
And here I thought "publican" was a clever play on words.
It is my understanding that Sacred Chrism can only be consecrated by autocephalous churches. Thus wouldn't the Sacred Chrism used by Antiochians have been consecrated by the Patriarch of Antioch, or is this another canonical innovation found in the AOANA, or, is my understanding of these matters incorrect?
In any event, I was Chrismated with Sacred Chrism which had been consecrated by a man reported to have been a drunken abuser who occasionally went for male gardeners and who handed his Synod over to another man who nearly drove it into the ground. I do not consider my Chrismation "invalid" or some such because of this. I am glad that men exposed the lies and violences that needed exposing. I am glad that there is more sound rule now in that Synod. There have been the names of imposters and fiends on antimins before. I think it a rather Orthodox thing to admit as much without questioning the "validity" of the Mysteries of altar and font.
As for Father George Shaloub, if he defends Klinger in the altar, then why should an Orthodox Christian want to be in communion with him? At a certain point things reach a level of ridiculous which demands a, albeit Christian in circumspection, ridicule and rejection.
We have heard for years a bragging on the part of +MP concerning how the AOANA was at the forefront of discerning and presenting an "American Orthodoxy" and now we find that this provides for us an obvious attempt to reduce and control the rule of fellow bishops, Klingerdoxy, mobsters, the unmitigated hubris of a fourth verse of Many Years, the dismissing of Sarah Hodges' concerns, the rejection of audits, and much more of the like. It seems to me perfectly in keeping with Orthodox identity to cry ANAXIOS when the situation becomes this unOrthodox.
All that said, I am also concerned about what will happen in the AOANA when +MP retires. I see no reason why his replacement might not continue the awful culture we see running the AOANA. Perhaps a parting of ways is not the worst scenario. Perhaps the "American Orthodoxy" of a group of folks that seem increasingly committed to circling their wagon around Arab ethnicity should be allowed to run its course on its own. They could take +Antoun, and leave us with some of the non-gambling bishops. I seriously doubt this scenario would ever play out, but I frankly think it might be better than what lies ahead.
Well. Samia, most all I've talked to agree with your analysis. BUT ... you explain the Met. actions with such "simplicity". It is He who welcomed those who sided on the part of Bp Demetri! He could have curtailed the "display of sad unChristian" behavior, No ?? Recall how he congratulated the son of late Chancellor John Khouri, BECAUSE he agreed with him. He is and always has beeen a charmer AT THE MICROPHONE (WITNESSED IT COUNTLESS TIMES).
He was called to be a Statesman (to the UN from Lebanon?) and we have had a CEO these many years. Time for change. Remember
Cardinal Mahoney retires next year at "75"!
May the choir (not Balamand) echo ANAXIOS! Three Times !!!
He was called to be a Statesman (to the UN from Lebanon?) and we have had a CEO these many years. Time for change. Remember
Cardinal Mahoney retires next year at "75"!
May the choir (not Balamand) echo ANAXIOS! Three Times !!!
#189
Anonymous (Western Diocese)
on
2009-08-19 17:35
"Sacred Chrism can only be consecrated by autocephalous churches."
Yes, several kind people have written to set me straight on this point.
Yes, several kind people have written to set me straight on this point.
#190
Father Patrick Reardon
on
2009-08-19 19:07
Istanbul's abuse of Fr. Daniel goes back a decade. They have coveted what they would not support and have done nothing but stand in the way. This is in contradiction to Bp./Met. Maximos of Pittsburgh's kind and loving support all these years despite Istanbul's unbridled hegemony and arrogance toward the good peoples of Indonesia and Fr. Dan whose only crime is to have loved those not worthy of that love.
Fr. Dan is a kind and loving soul who has no malice in him. On the contrary, Istanbul, directly and through surrogates, has done nothing but bully, cajole, threaten, withhold, yell, scream, rumormonger, gossip, steal, turn brother against brother... list the vices. They have attempted to bribe the Indonesian government officials to overturn Fr. Dan's long-sought official legal status in Indonesia in circumstances unique to the religious traditions of that land. They have attempted to seize property. In short, Istanbul has shown only contempt for the venerable Orthodox traditions regarding incarnation of culture, and instead, treat Indonesia like a new Hellenistic field of conquest... citing its right to rule "barbarian lands".
The Istanbul religious mafia, also called the Ecumenical Patriarchate, has sold its soul and the fruits of its behaviors exhibits this, sadly. Their abuse of Fr. Dan is a good example of the debauched state of that portion of world Orthodoxy that should be shouted from the rooftops. Repentance and reform must occur.
Fr. Dan is a kind and loving soul who has no malice in him. On the contrary, Istanbul, directly and through surrogates, has done nothing but bully, cajole, threaten, withhold, yell, scream, rumormonger, gossip, steal, turn brother against brother... list the vices. They have attempted to bribe the Indonesian government officials to overturn Fr. Dan's long-sought official legal status in Indonesia in circumstances unique to the religious traditions of that land. They have attempted to seize property. In short, Istanbul has shown only contempt for the venerable Orthodox traditions regarding incarnation of culture, and instead, treat Indonesia like a new Hellenistic field of conquest... citing its right to rule "barbarian lands".
The Istanbul religious mafia, also called the Ecumenical Patriarchate, has sold its soul and the fruits of its behaviors exhibits this, sadly. Their abuse of Fr. Dan is a good example of the debauched state of that portion of world Orthodoxy that should be shouted from the rooftops. Repentance and reform must occur.
#191
Anon.
on
2009-08-19 20:00
FINALLY. The causes of SVS's decades of silence are beginning to emerge. It appears that all who worked there and were aware of these dysfunctions were enablers in their silence. It would appear that keeping ones job was more important than speaking the truth. Those with theological knowledge have a greater responsibility to speak the truth. Had more of them risked their jobs to speak up, perhaps much of the current angst could have been avoided? Who among them stood with those of us who were skewered? With Dcn. Eric? ?Instead, the coveted their jobs more than truth. This kind of dysfunctional silence cannot be allowed to masquerade as piety. A thorough revamping of SVS must occur before we can truly emerge healthier. Right now I fear SVS continues enable the dysfunction. These revelations are no doubt just the tip of the iceberg. Thank you who are willing to share. Please keep going.
#192
Anon.
on
2009-08-19 20:24
Fr. Patrick, please.
I don't believe you are an idiot. Nor do I believe you are a liar, so can you in all good conscience say, unambiguously, that it was an oversight? You cannot be stupid enough to believe that.
I appreciate that you perceive some need to do some damage control for the archdiocese here. Maybe you even feel some personal loyalty to Metropoiitan Philip.
But you and everyone defending him now need to be clear. His actions are harming the church. It is harming individuals within the church. You are putting your own ministry and those given into your hands at risk. How will you answer to our Lord at the Judgement for supporting actions like these?
I sign my letters with my real name with the expectation that when it gets back to Englewood my priest will get a letter forbidding me communion, because I disagree with Metropolitan Philip and his actions. Do you support that? What about when and if he does the same thing to my family, who stand by me in this? How many souls must be wrought out of the church to satisfy Philips need to control before you and others like you will stop defending him?
I don't even discuss what I do here with my own priest and spiritual father, because I do not want Metropolitan Philips wrath to fall on him, and you KNOW it would Father Patrick. PLEASE, you are an intelligent and godly man by all accounts, how can you continue to defend this behavior?
Our life's calling, ALL our lives calling, whether clergy or laity (and I think we sometime make too much of that distinction in this country and think hierarch instead of abouna) is to advance the Gospel of Jesus Christ. If I who am a sinner, can see more clearly what this is doing than our own clergy, how much can we advance the Gospel to those outside the faith? For the sake of the Holy God we purport to serve, we have had to have police protection for one of our bishops from a member of our own board of trustees? And we are shamed before the whole world with this!
Father, please stop defending this.
I don't believe you are an idiot. Nor do I believe you are a liar, so can you in all good conscience say, unambiguously, that it was an oversight? You cannot be stupid enough to believe that.
I appreciate that you perceive some need to do some damage control for the archdiocese here. Maybe you even feel some personal loyalty to Metropoiitan Philip.
But you and everyone defending him now need to be clear. His actions are harming the church. It is harming individuals within the church. You are putting your own ministry and those given into your hands at risk. How will you answer to our Lord at the Judgement for supporting actions like these?
I sign my letters with my real name with the expectation that when it gets back to Englewood my priest will get a letter forbidding me communion, because I disagree with Metropolitan Philip and his actions. Do you support that? What about when and if he does the same thing to my family, who stand by me in this? How many souls must be wrought out of the church to satisfy Philips need to control before you and others like you will stop defending him?
I don't even discuss what I do here with my own priest and spiritual father, because I do not want Metropolitan Philips wrath to fall on him, and you KNOW it would Father Patrick. PLEASE, you are an intelligent and godly man by all accounts, how can you continue to defend this behavior?
Our life's calling, ALL our lives calling, whether clergy or laity (and I think we sometime make too much of that distinction in this country and think hierarch instead of abouna) is to advance the Gospel of Jesus Christ. If I who am a sinner, can see more clearly what this is doing than our own clergy, how much can we advance the Gospel to those outside the faith? For the sake of the Holy God we purport to serve, we have had to have police protection for one of our bishops from a member of our own board of trustees? And we are shamed before the whole world with this!
Father, please stop defending this.
I appreciate your comments, and I think they point to what's ultimately a strawman argument. It may well be that His Eminence sees this as an issue of charity, but the comment is unfortunate because it is an unfair portrayal of those who disagree with a decision that seems obviously imprudent as "uncharitable." This is the strawman: that those who oppose His Grace remaining a bishop are unloving, or even judgmental, bitter, and hateful. This is a false portrayal and, ultimately, an injustice to those who disagree with His Eminence. It is overly simplistic to lay before us only two choices: either ignore the serious concerns regarding His Grace as if they did not happen in order to show "charity," or be hateful and unloving. I don't know of anyone who has demonized or condemned His Grace Bishop Demetri, but loving him and hoping for the salvation of his soul-- and even hoping he finds a way to serve the Church in a capacity other than as a bishop-- does not require that one ignores the fact that he does not meet the requirements to remain a bishop. Such a decision is not "uncharitable," unless one is therefore willing to argue that the Church itself is also "uncharitable" to refuse to place a married man, or a woman, or another man compromised in a public fashion in that sacred role. Not just anyone is approved and called to that function in the Church. The historic requirements regarding character are clear, and if one condemns the opinions of those who find this scandalous, then one, by the same token, must find the Church's canonical limits scandalous as well. It seems that our Synod may have intended "charity" by eschewing a trial and only laying down the expectation that His Grace Bishop Demetri only be retired, but it appears that that "charity" was unfortunately taken advantage of. Again, I shake my head. After what the Roman Church has had to endure for similar behavior, why would anyone, even desire to alter the Church's historic system of accountability?
#194
Brian Jackson
on
2009-08-19 21:28
I believe we need to act on higher standards even if we believe that others are not.
My mother used to say "God's mill grinds slow but exceedingly fine". Sometimes we desire quick action and speedy resolution but perhaps God wants the mill to grind slowly to allow time for His purposes to be accomplished. They will.
Fr John Chagnon
St. Elias Orthodox Church
LaCrosse, WI
My mother used to say "God's mill grinds slow but exceedingly fine". Sometimes we desire quick action and speedy resolution but perhaps God wants the mill to grind slowly to allow time for His purposes to be accomplished. They will.
Fr John Chagnon
St. Elias Orthodox Church
LaCrosse, WI
It should be pretty clear to anyone reading here that Met. Philip and + Antoun need to retire. What, are they going to be in their grave still trying to hold on to absolute power? The AOCA Board of Trustees is nothing more than a "rubber stamp." Com'on people - WAKE UP! It's time for accountability and openness. The OCA has learned this.
Here's what should happen:
1) the retirement of + Philip & + Antoun.
2) the Board of Trustees must become an "ACTIVE" board
3) fiduciary responsibilities must be adhered to (full & complete independent audits)
4) election of a new Met. who really is what an American AOCA wants - + Basil
5) breaking away from the rule of "old country" bishops and joining a true autocephalous Orthodox Church (OCA) for independent operation
Here's what should happen:
1) the retirement of + Philip & + Antoun.
2) the Board of Trustees must become an "ACTIVE" board
3) fiduciary responsibilities must be adhered to (full & complete independent audits)
4) election of a new Met. who really is what an American AOCA wants - + Basil
5) breaking away from the rule of "old country" bishops and joining a true autocephalous Orthodox Church (OCA) for independent operation
#196
Anonymous
on
2009-08-20 07:56
Good point! I'm told that a year at HC costs around $30,000, a year at SVS around $15,000, and a year at St. Tikhon's around $7500.
And +MP has the termerity to complain about the cost of an audit?
And +MP has the termerity to complain about the cost of an audit?
#197
Jimmy the Greek
on
2009-08-20 09:46
Byzantine chant is most certainly still required for seminarians at Holy Cross. Six semesters of it.
Not every student is equally musically gifted (or hard working), but the required courses, chant groups, choirs and many extracurricular opportunities, including the rich exchange of knowledge amongst students from throughout the world, make it very easy to learn. There are, in fact, quite a number of excellent chanters who have graduated from Holy Cross in the last 10 years, including ones throughout the US, Greece, Cyprus, Lebanon, Syria and elsewhere.
In recent years, the Antiochian students' choir in particular has flourished. At times, Thursday's Vespers were simply astounding. That's thanks to very gifted students from Balamand and special courses that are offered to teach Byzantine chant in English.
There's already enough divisiveness surrounding this scandal, and this thread, without patently false, ignorant conjecture.
Not every student is equally musically gifted (or hard working), but the required courses, chant groups, choirs and many extracurricular opportunities, including the rich exchange of knowledge amongst students from throughout the world, make it very easy to learn. There are, in fact, quite a number of excellent chanters who have graduated from Holy Cross in the last 10 years, including ones throughout the US, Greece, Cyprus, Lebanon, Syria and elsewhere.
In recent years, the Antiochian students' choir in particular has flourished. At times, Thursday's Vespers were simply astounding. That's thanks to very gifted students from Balamand and special courses that are offered to teach Byzantine chant in English.
There's already enough divisiveness surrounding this scandal, and this thread, without patently false, ignorant conjecture.
#198
HC Graduate
on
2009-08-20 11:59
How heart breaking. What can be done? Anything practcial, other than the obvious: sharing and praying?
Who, pray tell, would be in line to be the next EP?
Who, pray tell, would be in line to be the next EP?
#199
pelagia
on
2009-08-20 13:46
Regarding Samia Habib comments, is speaking for Bishop JOSEPH since her son (Michael) is Bishop Joseph Assistant?
#200
Anonymous
on
2009-08-20 17:29
With al Respect regarding Fr. George, Jamie Farr AKA Klinger is a member of the antiochian Archdiocese and one of the founding MEmbers of St. Michael antiochian ORthodox Church in Van Nuys, CA and attend Liturgy on a regular basis
#201
Anonymous
on
2009-08-20 20:41
Dear Fr. Patrick,
A small correction: Metropolitan Philip does not consecrate Holy Chrism, since this is a rite only of autocephalous churches. All archdioceses of Antioch receive Holy Chrism from Patriarch Ignatius. However, His Beatitude, for his own reasons, chooses to receive and distribute the Holy Christ consecrated by the Patriarch of Constantinople. So, Metropolitan Philip has no more to do with the Chrism than you or I. As for the antimension, it is not valid without a saint's relic in it (if not in the Altar during its consecration). Did His Eminence put a relic in yours?
The rabbit hole runs deep, my brother.
A small correction: Metropolitan Philip does not consecrate Holy Chrism, since this is a rite only of autocephalous churches. All archdioceses of Antioch receive Holy Chrism from Patriarch Ignatius. However, His Beatitude, for his own reasons, chooses to receive and distribute the Holy Christ consecrated by the Patriarch of Constantinople. So, Metropolitan Philip has no more to do with the Chrism than you or I. As for the antimension, it is not valid without a saint's relic in it (if not in the Altar during its consecration). Did His Eminence put a relic in yours?
The rabbit hole runs deep, my brother.
#202
anonymous Antiochian priest
on
2009-08-20 21:23
The comment about the seminarians having to move just before classes begin could be a hardship - and their friends and family may take this personally. These points are valid. However, we must be obedientant ot our MEtropolitan - even if we do nto agree with his decission. My only criticism, on this they should have informed the students earlier before they moved in to the Seminary would have been better.
#203
Anonymous
on
2009-08-21 00:23
I must take exception to the comments of Mr. Stokoe concerning the decision of Metropolitan Philip to send some of his seminarians to Holy Cross Greek Orthodox School of Theology. There is no question that St. Vladimir’s has long been one of the great centers of Orthodox theological education. The faculty of St. Tikhon’s also deserves recognition for the advances that they have made to earn a place among the finest seminaries in the Orthodox world. However, as a graduate of Holy Cross I have always felt that the exposure to Byzantine chants and liturgical style that I received from my time at Holy Cross made me a much better Antiochian priest because I was immersed in Byzantine chant and liturgical style in Brookline.
There is no question that worship is central to the Orthodox Faith. It is not enough that a candidate for the Priesthood of the Antiochian Archdiocese understand the dogmatic teachings of the Church, he must also internalize the spirit of Byzantine Orthodoxy in order to may conduct the liturgical life according to the practices of the Archdiocese. The style of worship sets the whole tone of the life of an Orthodox parish and unites it with the larger community of the diocese, archdiocese and patriarchate. Faithful adherence to the liturgical practices of the Archdiocese also prevents the faithful of a parish from falling into excessive devotion to the individual style of a particular priest. Nothing disturbs the life of a parish more than the arrival of a new priest who alters the liturgical rhythm of the community. However if a new priest follows practices that the faithful already know because they are standard for the rest of the Archdiocese this potential source of disruption can be avoided. Thus, it is essential that every candidate for the Priesthood in the Antiochian Archdiocese have extensive experience of the particular liturgical usage of the Antiochian tradition. This includes several important elements of worship such as the organization of the services, the Byzantine style of chanting and the movement and gestures of the clergy during worship. Thus, I believe that an Antiochian seminarian must live and make his own the various elements that constitute the Antiochian expression of Orthodoxy. This tradition, which dates back to the Apostles, has played a major role in the development of Orthodox worship. Indeed, historians agree that the Liturgies of Sts. John Chrysostom and Basil grew out of the ancient practice of the Church of Antioch. Although there are minor differences, the liturgical traditions of the Patriarchate of Constantinople are essentially the same as that of the Church of Antioch. Although there is no question that they are Orthodox, the liturgical customs of the Russian Church differ significantly from the practices of the Antiochian and Greek Orthodox expressions of Orthodoxy. For this reason, it is much easier for a seminarian to embrace the liturgical practice followed by the Antiochian Archdiocese at Holy Cross Greek Orthodox School of Theology. At Holy Cross, he will become skilled at leading worship using the chant, gestures, and rhythm of Byzantine worship because he will experience it daily it in the Holy Cross Chapel.
It is only right and proper that the Metropolitan of the Antiochian Archdiocese determine where his seminarians should study. Unlike some other Orthodox jurisdictions, the Antiochian Archdiocese provides a full scholarship and living expenses for its seminarians. As a result it is possible for an Antiochian seminarian to complete his studies without the crushing burden of debt from loans used to pay his seminary expenses. The Metropolitan and his advisors are able to study each individual student to determine where he should receive his seminary education. As they must obey their Metropolitan when they complete their seminary education and are assigned to a parish, those wishing to enter the priesthood must obey the Metropolitan when assigned to a particular seminary.
I also object to the tone of some of the postings and found on the web site, “Orthodox Christians for Accountability.” It is possible for Orthodox Christians to disagree on administrative matters while showing proper respect for each other, and for our hierarchs. Some of the writings on this web site go beyond a discussion of issues and engage in mean and nasty attacks on Metropolitan Philip and his clergy. Allowing a discussion of complex issues to degenerate down to name calling by persons who lack the courage to identify themselves is not acceptable for discussions among Orthodox Christians. Largely because of the dedicated service of Metropolitan Philip, the Antiochian Archdiocese has undergone a period of rapid growth and change. Once we were a relatively small jurisdiction led by one man, who devoted his life to the service of his flock. Now we are a large Archdiocese with a Metropolitan and six Diocesan Bishops. It was inevitable that there would be misunderstandings and difficulties as we evolved so quickly. That is why I have always believed that matters concerning the authority of the Metropolitan and his Bishops should decided by the Metropolitan and his Bishops under the guidance of the Patriarch and Holy Synod of Antioch. Certainly, such complex matters should not be subject to the ranting and raving of a group of unidentified people writing in a very confrontational manner on a web site managed by someone who is not even a part of our Archdiocese. I frankly wonder what makes Mark Stokoe a great authority how the Antiochian Archdiocese should manage its affairs. Mr. Stokoe considers himself a journalist, but his commentaries transgress the boundary between professional journalism and polemics. They are more worthy of a supermarket tabloid than serious reporting. In any case, they display a spirit that is neither Orthodox nor Christian.
I also believe that just as my Parish Council manages the financial affairs of my parish, that the Board of Trustees should manage the financial affairs of the Archdiocese. I am not an accountant, but the yearly financial statements of the Archdiocese seem very complete to me. The Board of Trustees is elected by the faithful at the Archdiocese Convention specifically to manage the temporal affairs of the Archdiocese. They should decide any matter concerning the finances of the Archdiocese including whether or not we need an outside audit. Certainly such important matters should not be determined by a group of people who pass out a statement full of unsubstantiated accusations of irregularity, but who lack the courage to identify themselves.
Finally, Stokoe and the people who have written such terrible things about our Metropolitan have done a great disservice to the cause of Orthodox unity in this country. He has fed the division of American Orthodoxy by his attacks against the leadership of our Archdiocese.
I can write from over thirty years of personal experience that the Metropolitan Philip described on “Orthodox Christians for Accountability” is not the Metropolitan Philip that I know. The Metropolitan Philip that I know is decisive as any effective leader should be. However, he is also kind and cares deeply about the welfare of his clergy. I have always found that in times of difficulty I could turn to him and he would give me a fair hearing and sound advice. Every time that I have spoken with him, he has made me feel that he really cared about what I had to say. I realize that our Archdiocese has become so large that it is difficult for many clergy to get to know the Metropolitan the way that I was able to get to know him when there were less than 100 priests thirty years ago. That is the price that we have paid for the growth that has taken place under his leadership. Even those who do not know the Metropolitan well should have the decency to give him the benefit of the doubt and should reject the absurd attacks found in postings on the Internet by people who lack the courage to identify themselves. Instead, everyone should trust in God that He will take care of His Antiochian Archdiocese and show proper respect for the Metropolitan and his Bishops. For over 30 years Metropolitan Philip has been my spiritual father. I have not agreed with ever decision that he has made, but I still love and respect him as I love and respect my own father, who also made decisions that I did not always accept.
Sincerely
Archpriest John W. Morris
There is no question that worship is central to the Orthodox Faith. It is not enough that a candidate for the Priesthood of the Antiochian Archdiocese understand the dogmatic teachings of the Church, he must also internalize the spirit of Byzantine Orthodoxy in order to may conduct the liturgical life according to the practices of the Archdiocese. The style of worship sets the whole tone of the life of an Orthodox parish and unites it with the larger community of the diocese, archdiocese and patriarchate. Faithful adherence to the liturgical practices of the Archdiocese also prevents the faithful of a parish from falling into excessive devotion to the individual style of a particular priest. Nothing disturbs the life of a parish more than the arrival of a new priest who alters the liturgical rhythm of the community. However if a new priest follows practices that the faithful already know because they are standard for the rest of the Archdiocese this potential source of disruption can be avoided. Thus, it is essential that every candidate for the Priesthood in the Antiochian Archdiocese have extensive experience of the particular liturgical usage of the Antiochian tradition. This includes several important elements of worship such as the organization of the services, the Byzantine style of chanting and the movement and gestures of the clergy during worship. Thus, I believe that an Antiochian seminarian must live and make his own the various elements that constitute the Antiochian expression of Orthodoxy. This tradition, which dates back to the Apostles, has played a major role in the development of Orthodox worship. Indeed, historians agree that the Liturgies of Sts. John Chrysostom and Basil grew out of the ancient practice of the Church of Antioch. Although there are minor differences, the liturgical traditions of the Patriarchate of Constantinople are essentially the same as that of the Church of Antioch. Although there is no question that they are Orthodox, the liturgical customs of the Russian Church differ significantly from the practices of the Antiochian and Greek Orthodox expressions of Orthodoxy. For this reason, it is much easier for a seminarian to embrace the liturgical practice followed by the Antiochian Archdiocese at Holy Cross Greek Orthodox School of Theology. At Holy Cross, he will become skilled at leading worship using the chant, gestures, and rhythm of Byzantine worship because he will experience it daily it in the Holy Cross Chapel.
It is only right and proper that the Metropolitan of the Antiochian Archdiocese determine where his seminarians should study. Unlike some other Orthodox jurisdictions, the Antiochian Archdiocese provides a full scholarship and living expenses for its seminarians. As a result it is possible for an Antiochian seminarian to complete his studies without the crushing burden of debt from loans used to pay his seminary expenses. The Metropolitan and his advisors are able to study each individual student to determine where he should receive his seminary education. As they must obey their Metropolitan when they complete their seminary education and are assigned to a parish, those wishing to enter the priesthood must obey the Metropolitan when assigned to a particular seminary.
I also object to the tone of some of the postings and found on the web site, “Orthodox Christians for Accountability.” It is possible for Orthodox Christians to disagree on administrative matters while showing proper respect for each other, and for our hierarchs. Some of the writings on this web site go beyond a discussion of issues and engage in mean and nasty attacks on Metropolitan Philip and his clergy. Allowing a discussion of complex issues to degenerate down to name calling by persons who lack the courage to identify themselves is not acceptable for discussions among Orthodox Christians. Largely because of the dedicated service of Metropolitan Philip, the Antiochian Archdiocese has undergone a period of rapid growth and change. Once we were a relatively small jurisdiction led by one man, who devoted his life to the service of his flock. Now we are a large Archdiocese with a Metropolitan and six Diocesan Bishops. It was inevitable that there would be misunderstandings and difficulties as we evolved so quickly. That is why I have always believed that matters concerning the authority of the Metropolitan and his Bishops should decided by the Metropolitan and his Bishops under the guidance of the Patriarch and Holy Synod of Antioch. Certainly, such complex matters should not be subject to the ranting and raving of a group of unidentified people writing in a very confrontational manner on a web site managed by someone who is not even a part of our Archdiocese. I frankly wonder what makes Mark Stokoe a great authority how the Antiochian Archdiocese should manage its affairs. Mr. Stokoe considers himself a journalist, but his commentaries transgress the boundary between professional journalism and polemics. They are more worthy of a supermarket tabloid than serious reporting. In any case, they display a spirit that is neither Orthodox nor Christian.
I also believe that just as my Parish Council manages the financial affairs of my parish, that the Board of Trustees should manage the financial affairs of the Archdiocese. I am not an accountant, but the yearly financial statements of the Archdiocese seem very complete to me. The Board of Trustees is elected by the faithful at the Archdiocese Convention specifically to manage the temporal affairs of the Archdiocese. They should decide any matter concerning the finances of the Archdiocese including whether or not we need an outside audit. Certainly such important matters should not be determined by a group of people who pass out a statement full of unsubstantiated accusations of irregularity, but who lack the courage to identify themselves.
Finally, Stokoe and the people who have written such terrible things about our Metropolitan have done a great disservice to the cause of Orthodox unity in this country. He has fed the division of American Orthodoxy by his attacks against the leadership of our Archdiocese.
I can write from over thirty years of personal experience that the Metropolitan Philip described on “Orthodox Christians for Accountability” is not the Metropolitan Philip that I know. The Metropolitan Philip that I know is decisive as any effective leader should be. However, he is also kind and cares deeply about the welfare of his clergy. I have always found that in times of difficulty I could turn to him and he would give me a fair hearing and sound advice. Every time that I have spoken with him, he has made me feel that he really cared about what I had to say. I realize that our Archdiocese has become so large that it is difficult for many clergy to get to know the Metropolitan the way that I was able to get to know him when there were less than 100 priests thirty years ago. That is the price that we have paid for the growth that has taken place under his leadership. Even those who do not know the Metropolitan well should have the decency to give him the benefit of the doubt and should reject the absurd attacks found in postings on the Internet by people who lack the courage to identify themselves. Instead, everyone should trust in God that He will take care of His Antiochian Archdiocese and show proper respect for the Metropolitan and his Bishops. For over 30 years Metropolitan Philip has been my spiritual father. I have not agreed with ever decision that he has made, but I still love and respect him as I love and respect my own father, who also made decisions that I did not always accept.
Sincerely
Archpriest John W. Morris
#204
Fr. John W. Morris
on
2009-08-21 07:10
Lord bless you and all your who take courageous stances, having "counted the cost."
#205
Antionymous
on
2009-08-21 08:29
And other times, we are fighting God and his will and don't let the mill grind if we can help it! My guess is that too often this is more the case. God's will be done...just not while we (and that sure includes the hierarchs) have an agenda!?
#206
Anonymously sad about it all
on
2009-08-21 12:43
Dear Fr. John,
While it is true that we must always wait on the Lord, it is also true that the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth, is very active in the Church.
We are each called by the Holy Spirit to contribute to the Body of Christ in a unique way. The laity of the Church are far more important in this regard than those who are called into Holy Orders seem to understand. We are all part of the priesthood of the New Coventant, and must work together to bring the full Gospel to those who hunger for the Truth.
In this regard we must always keep our focus on the Big Picture, which is the Kingdom of God. As Orthodox Christian we have been blessed with the fullness of God's revelation, so we must strive to be faithful and zealous in sharing this treasure with other seekers. We cannot accept the leadership of those who do not understand the magnitute of the calling we have been given.
If we take our Faith and calling seriously, we must not enable those who would thwart the Holy Spirit, and the work of the Church.
Your Brother in Christ,
Marc
While it is true that we must always wait on the Lord, it is also true that the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth, is very active in the Church.
We are each called by the Holy Spirit to contribute to the Body of Christ in a unique way. The laity of the Church are far more important in this regard than those who are called into Holy Orders seem to understand. We are all part of the priesthood of the New Coventant, and must work together to bring the full Gospel to those who hunger for the Truth.
In this regard we must always keep our focus on the Big Picture, which is the Kingdom of God. As Orthodox Christian we have been blessed with the fullness of God's revelation, so we must strive to be faithful and zealous in sharing this treasure with other seekers. We cannot accept the leadership of those who do not understand the magnitute of the calling we have been given.
If we take our Faith and calling seriously, we must not enable those who would thwart the Holy Spirit, and the work of the Church.
Your Brother in Christ,
Marc
#207
Marc Trolinger
on
2009-08-21 16:44
Dear Fr. John,
Bless!
While I sincerely seek your blessing, I also must respond as honestly as I know. I saw an essay you wrote on "theAntiochian.com" some time ago. There, as here, I see you protray yourself as presenting a 'third way' a 'humble way' avoiding the bombastic extremes, yet the point of that essay, as this one, was clear--your third way is simply a smoother way of telling everyone to shut up and accept the serious problems with trust that are developing. I am not defending every statement on this site, but I do defend the overall goodness of my brothers and sisters developing, at times clumsily, some system of accountability which will ultimately benefit our beloved Church and God-Protected Archdiocese. You speak of excessive "polemics" and "namecalling" on this site, while--in the same statement no less--you stoop to accusing your brothers and sisters of lacking a spirit which is Orthodox or Christian. You refer to legitimate complaints of the outraged as "ranting and raving" and point to the anonymity of some posters as indicating a lack of courage. Your smooth words do not hide your own "ranting and raving." Whether or not a particular posting strikes you as a supermarket tabloid in tone is not as important to most readers as whether or not the information is true. Mr. Stokoe's postings caused at least as much disruption to the pseudo-peace the OCA used to experience, but this disruption was later seen to be just what was necessary to reveal the truth of things. As I recall, his postings were pretty much shown to be accurate, and the OCA is better for it. "Is this information true?" is my only question, and the only question of most readers. If it is not true, it seems that this could be better demonstrated by increased transparency--such as that which would be afforded by an independent audit--rather than accusatory responses which really serve no purpose. Forgive me, please for any unnecessary offense or anger, but also listen to me, please, and to others on this site, in regard to our deepest desire to see the Archdiocese prove her trustworthiness by increased transparency and accountability.
(Editor's note: "Pretty much accurate?" "Accurate" would be more accurate.)
Bless!
While I sincerely seek your blessing, I also must respond as honestly as I know. I saw an essay you wrote on "theAntiochian.com" some time ago. There, as here, I see you protray yourself as presenting a 'third way' a 'humble way' avoiding the bombastic extremes, yet the point of that essay, as this one, was clear--your third way is simply a smoother way of telling everyone to shut up and accept the serious problems with trust that are developing. I am not defending every statement on this site, but I do defend the overall goodness of my brothers and sisters developing, at times clumsily, some system of accountability which will ultimately benefit our beloved Church and God-Protected Archdiocese. You speak of excessive "polemics" and "namecalling" on this site, while--in the same statement no less--you stoop to accusing your brothers and sisters of lacking a spirit which is Orthodox or Christian. You refer to legitimate complaints of the outraged as "ranting and raving" and point to the anonymity of some posters as indicating a lack of courage. Your smooth words do not hide your own "ranting and raving." Whether or not a particular posting strikes you as a supermarket tabloid in tone is not as important to most readers as whether or not the information is true. Mr. Stokoe's postings caused at least as much disruption to the pseudo-peace the OCA used to experience, but this disruption was later seen to be just what was necessary to reveal the truth of things. As I recall, his postings were pretty much shown to be accurate, and the OCA is better for it. "Is this information true?" is my only question, and the only question of most readers. If it is not true, it seems that this could be better demonstrated by increased transparency--such as that which would be afforded by an independent audit--rather than accusatory responses which really serve no purpose. Forgive me, please for any unnecessary offense or anger, but also listen to me, please, and to others on this site, in regard to our deepest desire to see the Archdiocese prove her trustworthiness by increased transparency and accountability.
(Editor's note: "Pretty much accurate?" "Accurate" would be more accurate.
)
#208
Brian Jackson
on
2009-08-21 20:24
Anon from #201,
Well, by all means then. Perhaps we should let every famous layperson stroll into the altar and sign the Gospel book for a photo shoot.
And God forbid the local bishop ever express concern over that sort of thing. As the Detroit mafia has made clear - that is not his place in the fanciful world of Klingerdoxy.
Good grief.
Well, by all means then. Perhaps we should let every famous layperson stroll into the altar and sign the Gospel book for a photo shoot.
And God forbid the local bishop ever express concern over that sort of thing. As the Detroit mafia has made clear - that is not his place in the fanciful world of Klingerdoxy.
Good grief.
What's the matter priest John... nobdy left on "The Antiochian" to read your propaganda pieces? I for one am not swayed by your screed to join you in worshipful devotion of bishop Philip.
Yes, you may consider this one of those confrontational rants and raves by an anonymous Internet poster.
Heracleides
Yes, you may consider this one of those confrontational rants and raves by an anonymous Internet poster.
Heracleides
#210
Heracleides
on
2009-08-22 01:09
"Lord, I call upon Thee, hear me! Hear me, O Lord…"
“For our father and Metropolitan Phillip, for our Bishop Mark, for the honorable priesthood, the deaconate in Christ, and for all the clergy and the people, let us pray to the Lord…”
“Among the first be mindful, O Lord, of our father and Metropolitan Phillip and our Bishop ____ whom do Thou grant to Thy holy churches in peace, safety, honor, health, and length of days, rightly dividing the Word of Thy Truth.
I have prayed these prayers more time than I can remember. Rarely (although I confess there have been times) do I pray these words in a rote manner without involving my heart. But this weekend, the words of these prayers took on a new urgency and fervency for me.
There have been some, shall we say, more reasonable voices on this blog who have encouraged us to pray for our Metropolitan, for our Archdiocese, and for the entire Church. I’d like to add my voice to theirs.
One does not have to agree with his actions in order to pray for him. Over the years I have discovered a ‘funny’ thing about prayer offered in fervency and with faith: it brings Light and Grace both to the ones who pray and to the ones for whom we pray. This Light and Grace is the Word of God, the very presence of God Himself, who is “sharper than any two-edged sword…able to discern the thoughts and intentions of the heart.” Although we may have very reasonable suspicions, this something that we are not qualified to do.
The Light and Grace of God operates in two ways according to the disposition of the one exposed to Him:
“And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.”
Some want to complain, some want to protest. I would not deny that it may well be our duty to do so. But allow me to suggest that the best, most effective, most righteous thing we can do that will always bring the Light and Grace we seek is heed the advice I have often seen on the home screen of my daughter-in-law’s cell phone. Every time she opens it she sees a little reminder she has placed there for herself: one simple word, “Pray!”
“In peace let us pray to the Lord.” When we hear these words of the Litany let us take them to heart. "With all our soul and all our mind let us pray…"
It is above all else our duty to so for His Eminence, for our bishops, for the Archdiocese, and for all the clergy and the people for the sake of Christ and His holy Church.
Lord, have mercy.
“For our father and Metropolitan Phillip, for our Bishop Mark, for the honorable priesthood, the deaconate in Christ, and for all the clergy and the people, let us pray to the Lord…”
“Among the first be mindful, O Lord, of our father and Metropolitan Phillip and our Bishop ____ whom do Thou grant to Thy holy churches in peace, safety, honor, health, and length of days, rightly dividing the Word of Thy Truth.
I have prayed these prayers more time than I can remember. Rarely (although I confess there have been times) do I pray these words in a rote manner without involving my heart. But this weekend, the words of these prayers took on a new urgency and fervency for me.
There have been some, shall we say, more reasonable voices on this blog who have encouraged us to pray for our Metropolitan, for our Archdiocese, and for the entire Church. I’d like to add my voice to theirs.
One does not have to agree with his actions in order to pray for him. Over the years I have discovered a ‘funny’ thing about prayer offered in fervency and with faith: it brings Light and Grace both to the ones who pray and to the ones for whom we pray. This Light and Grace is the Word of God, the very presence of God Himself, who is “sharper than any two-edged sword…able to discern the thoughts and intentions of the heart.” Although we may have very reasonable suspicions, this something that we are not qualified to do.
The Light and Grace of God operates in two ways according to the disposition of the one exposed to Him:
“And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.”
Some want to complain, some want to protest. I would not deny that it may well be our duty to do so. But allow me to suggest that the best, most effective, most righteous thing we can do that will always bring the Light and Grace we seek is heed the advice I have often seen on the home screen of my daughter-in-law’s cell phone. Every time she opens it she sees a little reminder she has placed there for herself: one simple word, “Pray!”
“In peace let us pray to the Lord.” When we hear these words of the Litany let us take them to heart. "With all our soul and all our mind let us pray…"
It is above all else our duty to so for His Eminence, for our bishops, for the Archdiocese, and for all the clergy and the people for the sake of Christ and His holy Church.
Lord, have mercy.
#211
Brian Van Sickle
on
2009-08-23 20:12
I agree with MP's reason with regard to Byz traditions to move seminarians to Holy Cross. I have personally witnessed the distructive influences of OCA (Russian tradition) trained priests (over many years) on traditionally Byz churches. People become confused, it leads to discord, and one's familiar traditions and cultures become irradicated. We need to return to staying familiar and this can only be accomplished by producing new clergy from within our own parishes and training them in accordance to each of their own traditions. I am sure the Russian - Slav churches would feel the same about having a Byz educated priest in their church. It doesn't make sense. MP makes sense. In fact we should also think about removing our children from other denominational schools, and open more Orthodox schools.
#212
Anom
on
2009-08-25 06:59
And even more of a joke, at the Antiochian Village where they
have their yearly choir conferences, a LOT of the music was Russian when I was there. Jim Meena, choir director and one of
the instructors, ALWAYS wanted to pull out Tchaikovsky's Liturgy,
and we were told on numerous occasions that this was MP's
favorite!
So his yanking the seminarians has NOTHING to do with any
goshawful Nassar-Kazan music or even Greek-Byzantine indoctrination, but everything with his trying to hurt the OCA,
although they have nothing to do with Mark's heroic efforts.
.....
I swear, all those guys get "miteritis" they put on the miter, the heads keep swelling, and the brains leak out their ears. That's why there needs to be another level of hierarchy above the bishops --- the over-50 women of the church!!!! Take names, kick
bootay!! These creepy bishops would be gone in 2 seconds flat!
Pauline Costianes
have their yearly choir conferences, a LOT of the music was Russian when I was there. Jim Meena, choir director and one of
the instructors, ALWAYS wanted to pull out Tchaikovsky's Liturgy,
and we were told on numerous occasions that this was MP's
favorite!
So his yanking the seminarians has NOTHING to do with any
goshawful Nassar-Kazan music or even Greek-Byzantine indoctrination, but everything with his trying to hurt the OCA,
although they have nothing to do with Mark's heroic efforts.
.....
I swear, all those guys get "miteritis" they put on the miter, the heads keep swelling, and the brains leak out their ears. That's why there needs to be another level of hierarchy above the bishops --- the over-50 women of the church!!!! Take names, kick
bootay!! These creepy bishops would be gone in 2 seconds flat!
Pauline Costianes
#213
Pauline Costianes
on
2009-08-27 12:01
Well, thanks so much for demonstrating so clearly the heresy of phyletism in your remarks! (look it up if you don't know what
it means).
With that kind of attitude, it's no wonder we've made
practically no headway with any kind of Orthodox unity in this country.
You said it yourself " one's familiar traditions and cultures". Whether "Russian" or "Byzantine", it's only "tradition"
with a little "t", not HOLY TRADITION. When you make idols
out of styles of chant, calendars, iconography,language, etc, you have left True Orthodoxy, and have embarked on the journey to Planet Phyletism. Shame, shame, shame on you!!! No wonder
you didn't sign your name to your post!
it means).
With that kind of attitude, it's no wonder we've made
practically no headway with any kind of Orthodox unity in this country.
You said it yourself " one's familiar traditions and cultures". Whether "Russian" or "Byzantine", it's only "tradition"
with a little "t", not HOLY TRADITION. When you make idols
out of styles of chant, calendars, iconography,language, etc, you have left True Orthodoxy, and have embarked on the journey to Planet Phyletism. Shame, shame, shame on you!!! No wonder
you didn't sign your name to your post!
#214
Pauline Costianes
on
2009-09-02 10:24
This morning I went on the Archdiocese website and saw the photo and article about Fr. Patrick Reardon, including all his writings, his bio and his reflection on the convention. This is not the first time that people, clergy and laity, have been featured on the first page - people who either are in the inner circle or have praised MP for all of his wonderful accomplishments. When will everyone else, who doesn't exactly praise him or belong to the inner circle, be featured? There are other lpeople who have wonderful things to say and have made great accomplishments, and yet they don't get the attention that the great brown nosers do. Doesn't sound so fair to me? How about hearing about those others - let's be fair and see both sides of the story. Or are those "other" people being hidden because they don't agree with MP? I thought we weren't hiding anything?
I do not see good or truth in any of these situations. I see a Greek circle dance period! Weaving in and out those who support Clergy Sexual Abuse and silencing of victims. The training begins in this dance to break the hand and start the dance and wave the handerchief wherever the poisonous leaders turn who abuse their power. You must follow their wave or you are seen to be out of the dance whatever seminary they might be attending.
Do not forget, it was Holy Cross Greek Orthodox Seminary that wanted to confer an honorary degree on Roman Catholic Cardinal Law AFTER
all the terrible soul murders were known of the Clergy Sexual Abuse in Boston.
ANON not dancing any more
Do not forget, it was Holy Cross Greek Orthodox Seminary that wanted to confer an honorary degree on Roman Catholic Cardinal Law AFTER
all the terrible soul murders were known of the Clergy Sexual Abuse in Boston.
ANON not dancing any more
#216
Anonymous
on
2009-09-08 19:46
You're right about some of the convention features not being what they should have been. But we have to give some praise to our host parish. When they started working on the convention 3-4 years ago, they did not have this dark cloud hanging over them. Their job was to coordinate and organize the entire week of events, and they did a fine job. They also had to get all their plans approved thru the Archdiocese Dept. of Convention Planning, and perhaps their requirements were more involved. Their job was not to run the General Assembly and have it turn out the way we thought it would. That was up to the people running the meeting. So let's be kind to our host parish and give them the proper credit for working under the dark cloud that remains and will be here for a very long time. Kudos to our Host Parish - they worked very hard.
Dear Michael,
You are partly right. MP has the canonical right to do what he thinks is best. But with that privilege and right comes responsibility - fatherly, shepherdly and pastorally - to be considerate of our seminarians and not use them as pawns, and not use the OCA as another pawn to fulfill his own demands. The seminarians and the OCA have nothing to do with this mess we are in, and they should not be punished for something they didn't cause. Because he is in his position, he should be the first one to insist that the righteous and holy will of God be done, not the will of MP, who obviously stops at nothing to use his power to his own advantage. When you make random, reckless decisions, you are not being responsible, and therefore, he only makes it very clear that he truly doesn't care what people think of his decisions, and that he truly doesn't care about anyone but himself. The Archdiocese revolves around him and his own needs, and forget about ministering to his sheep. That's where the real issue is, and that is what is so upsetting to people. You should look more objectively and stop following this tyrant who cares nothing for anyone. If it's not in his plan, then it goes out the window and many people suffer for it. Is that the kind of faith we want to evangelize to others - fear and intimidation? He'll even go after you if you say anything against him, and then who will finally choose to follow.
You are partly right. MP has the canonical right to do what he thinks is best. But with that privilege and right comes responsibility - fatherly, shepherdly and pastorally - to be considerate of our seminarians and not use them as pawns, and not use the OCA as another pawn to fulfill his own demands. The seminarians and the OCA have nothing to do with this mess we are in, and they should not be punished for something they didn't cause. Because he is in his position, he should be the first one to insist that the righteous and holy will of God be done, not the will of MP, who obviously stops at nothing to use his power to his own advantage. When you make random, reckless decisions, you are not being responsible, and therefore, he only makes it very clear that he truly doesn't care what people think of his decisions, and that he truly doesn't care about anyone but himself. The Archdiocese revolves around him and his own needs, and forget about ministering to his sheep. That's where the real issue is, and that is what is so upsetting to people. You should look more objectively and stop following this tyrant who cares nothing for anyone. If it's not in his plan, then it goes out the window and many people suffer for it. Is that the kind of faith we want to evangelize to others - fear and intimidation? He'll even go after you if you say anything against him, and then who will finally choose to follow.
I feel compelled to reply to your comment. It's very hard to speak on behalf of someone else unless you are inside their heart and their brain to know what they are truly feeling and thinking, and to understand their concerns. Since I am not inside the heart or mind of Bishop JOSEPH or my son, Michael, I cannot and am not speaking for them. Remember the story in the Bible of the young man who was born blind, and people wanted to know who sinned, he or his parents. Then he was miraculously healed, and people wanted to know how the healing took place and who healed him. Their response: (paraphrased) We do not know, but yes, he is our son, he was blind from birth and now he sees. We don't know how this happened, but he is of age. Ask him yourself, let him speak for himself. I do not speak on behalf of anyone else, and you can feel free to ask Bishop JOSEPH and/or Michael. They are of age - let them speak for themselves, if they choose. If not, it's their decision. I repeat - I only speak on behalf of myself.
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