Monday, October 11. 2010
+Philip's Interview
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Well here is something I don't understand. Bishop Phillip says he is worth millions. How can an Orthodox monk who took a vow of poverty be worth millions? Something is not quite right here.
(Editor's note: Only Great Schema monks make vows of poverty:
"Question: Do you renounce the world and the things which are in the world, according to the commandment of the Lord?"
This particular vow is what distinguishes monks of the Great Schema from monks of the Small Schema (the monk of the Small Schema does not make this vow) and the Rasophore monk. The Rasophore does not make formal vows at all. Hence, the Archbishop,as a rasophore monk, has made no vow of poverty.
Of course, the question is still valid. How does even a rasophore acquire, even after 40 years, "a few million dollars" from "gifts"? And of course, as the Metropolitan says, you will never find out, because he has drawn a "red line" over those portions of the Archdiocese's funds. As the Metropolitan said: " How much money I have is my business, how much money I have.")
(Editor's note: Only Great Schema monks make vows of poverty:
"Question: Do you renounce the world and the things which are in the world, according to the commandment of the Lord?"
This particular vow is what distinguishes monks of the Great Schema from monks of the Small Schema (the monk of the Small Schema does not make this vow) and the Rasophore monk. The Rasophore does not make formal vows at all. Hence, the Archbishop,as a rasophore monk, has made no vow of poverty.
Of course, the question is still valid. How does even a rasophore acquire, even after 40 years, "a few million dollars" from "gifts"? And of course, as the Metropolitan says, you will never find out, because he has drawn a "red line" over those portions of the Archdiocese's funds. As the Metropolitan said: " How much money I have is my business, how much money I have.")
#1
Anonymous
on
2010-10-11 09:28
A very interesting interview and it is commendable that Met. Philip was so willing to answer so many questions. As always, one leaves with the sense of questions that could have been asked or should have been asked, but weren't but all-in-all and nice set of questions, and answers. It still leaves me with the feeling that while the Met. doesn't want Antioch to play games with the Archdiocese of NA, still, he wants to play games with the bishops, parishes and clergy. Two things I would have welcomed, first, that he and the board was willing to have a total audit of the the funds of the Archdiocese; secondly, a statement from him that he is going to allow clergy who have earned their retirements to actually receive their retirements, in a vested account, not at his whim or his discretion. Finally, it would have been nice to see him take a greater leadership role in one Orthodox Church in North America, rather than to appear as a pawn of powers across the seas. Still, an engaging interview.
#2
Sean O'Clare
on
2010-10-11 09:53
Serious, this headline is misguided. He did not slam them, I listened to the entire audio file and he just disagreed with them on specific areas in regards to structure i.e. Metropolitans.
You are persecuting this man for no reason by labeling this article that way.
Mark, I really like this website due to the freedom of speech here but what he said is 100% agreeable on every level.
How can someone find argument with what he said, if so please post.
NOTE: please don't use the examples of canon and consecrated etc. just listen to these words, they are to preserve this Archdiocese. AND whatever money he has is his own business and no one elses. Even if he kept his personal wealth he can cause it's his. That is flat out ignorance at best to think anyone has the right to audit this man's personal accounts. I back him 100%!
(Editor's note: I suggest you re-read the interview again. To label the OCA as " not ready for autocephaly" is a slam. To criticize the GOA as possessing a system that is " contrary to Orthodox ecclesiology" is a slam. To call Bishop Mark's repeated use of wedding imagery to describe the relationship between a bishop and his diocese a "monstrosity" is a slam. I appreciate the Metropolitan's frankness, but a slam is a slam. Moreover, his finances, by his own admission, are not his own. He claims to own nothing, but everything is in the name of the Archdiocese, which he says is "Archbishop Philip Saliba". Confused? This is for the Archdiocese to straighten out - or not; all I can say is that we had a Metropolitan and Chancellor who made the same claim, that the millions of dollars of gifts given to the Church through them could not be audited or examined in any way in 1999. Didn't work out so well for us, but best of luck to you.)
You are persecuting this man for no reason by labeling this article that way.
Mark, I really like this website due to the freedom of speech here but what he said is 100% agreeable on every level.
How can someone find argument with what he said, if so please post.
NOTE: please don't use the examples of canon and consecrated etc. just listen to these words, they are to preserve this Archdiocese. AND whatever money he has is his own business and no one elses. Even if he kept his personal wealth he can cause it's his. That is flat out ignorance at best to think anyone has the right to audit this man's personal accounts. I back him 100%!
(Editor's note: I suggest you re-read the interview again. To label the OCA as " not ready for autocephaly" is a slam. To criticize the GOA as possessing a system that is " contrary to Orthodox ecclesiology" is a slam. To call Bishop Mark's repeated use of wedding imagery to describe the relationship between a bishop and his diocese a "monstrosity" is a slam. I appreciate the Metropolitan's frankness, but a slam is a slam. Moreover, his finances, by his own admission, are not his own. He claims to own nothing, but everything is in the name of the Archdiocese, which he says is "Archbishop Philip Saliba". Confused? This is for the Archdiocese to straighten out - or not; all I can say is that we had a Metropolitan and Chancellor who made the same claim, that the millions of dollars of gifts given to the Church through them could not be audited or examined in any way in 1999. Didn't work out so well for us, but best of luck to you.)
#3
Happy
on
2010-10-11 10:00
Regarding the finances, money specifically given to the Orthodox Church is considered "his" (+Phillip's) money? No one has the right to ask him about it? No audit will ever be done regarding money people gave to the CHURCH? If they ask him about it he will tell them to "go jump" (I assume off a bridge?)
No external audit even for the remaining accounts and finances or the Diocese! What are they hiding?
This is beyond belief!
Thank you AFR for this revealing interview.
No external audit even for the remaining accounts and finances or the Diocese! What are they hiding?
This is beyond belief!
Thank you AFR for this revealing interview.
#4
Annonymous
on
2010-10-11 10:22
I highly commend Kevin Allen on his skill as an interviewer. He did all a great service in conducting this interview. Kevin's skill as an interviewer is among the best of which I am aware. I thoroughly enjoy all his programs on his podcast, "The Illumined Heart" even when it is about a topic for which I do not think (at the outset) I have an interest. Once the interview is over, I realize my interest has been piqued by his skill. May God bless Kevin to continue such work, and AFR for providing an outlet for all of us to be benefited by it.
That said, I am extremely disappointed by the answers to Kevin's questions given by Metropolitan PHILIP. I am, to speak bluntly, angered by +PHILIP's all-but solemn promise to oust +MARK (disclosure: who is my bishop) from his episcopal throne--for which no canonical or ethical warrant has ever been given (though perhaps I lack awareness that such warrant exists). +PHILIP's artless innuendos and implicit allegations against +MARK, egregiously unethical, do not constitute such warrant. +PHILIP's public expression of his personal net worth I also found highly distasteful.
I continue to pray for +PHILIP in my personal prayers. And I fervently wish for his retirement to some quiet monastery where he can do no further mischief--and for his replacement.
That said, I am extremely disappointed by the answers to Kevin's questions given by Metropolitan PHILIP. I am, to speak bluntly, angered by +PHILIP's all-but solemn promise to oust +MARK (disclosure: who is my bishop) from his episcopal throne--for which no canonical or ethical warrant has ever been given (though perhaps I lack awareness that such warrant exists). +PHILIP's artless innuendos and implicit allegations against +MARK, egregiously unethical, do not constitute such warrant. +PHILIP's public expression of his personal net worth I also found highly distasteful.
I continue to pray for +PHILIP in my personal prayers. And I fervently wish for his retirement to some quiet monastery where he can do no further mischief--and for his replacement.
First, I think the interview was interesting. Metropolitan PHILIP is correct what he does with his eprsonal money I.e. Gift, etc is his person business, no different than what our local Priest do with the Gift they get for sacramental services or blessing homes. That is gift to THEM and it is no one business what they do with it. Metropolitan I stated on his death this money goes to the archdiocese.
Second, I noticed that many comments on this website site the LEtter of the law of the canons. IMost the bishops in the antiochian PAtriachate are not monks (I could only think of three that are). So using monastic criteria is not a valid point. Are all other Bishops monks?
Editor's note: All bishops have taken at least the first monastic vows, at least nominally.)
Second, I noticed that many comments on this website site the LEtter of the law of the canons. IMost the bishops in the antiochian PAtriachate are not monks (I could only think of three that are). So using monastic criteria is not a valid point. Are all other Bishops monks?
Editor's note: All bishops have taken at least the first monastic vows, at least nominally.)
#6
Anonymous
on
2010-10-11 11:30
I will only grace Metropolitan Philip with one compliment and something he nailed. The use of old country languages is harmful to Orthodoxy.
On other matters, such as Orthodox org charts, I'm highly skeptical about gamesmanship.
And before anyone suggests an American Patriarch, I hope a thorough review of the pros and cons is heavily weighed. I'm not sure it'd be a good thing.
Can anyone say ouzo shortage? My apologies in advance.
On other matters, such as Orthodox org charts, I'm highly skeptical about gamesmanship.
And before anyone suggests an American Patriarch, I hope a thorough review of the pros and cons is heavily weighed. I'm not sure it'd be a good thing.
Can anyone say ouzo shortage? My apologies in advance.
#7
Daniel E. Fall
on
2010-10-11 11:49
MP maliciously undercut Bishop Mark last fall when he encouraged parishes to embrace an orderly manner of managing parish funds as part of their fiduciary responsibility.
MP financial policy "two signatures on every check"!
That did not stop Fr Joseph Antypas from sucking a dead woman's name on checks as well as his own!
That did not stop the treasurer in Toledo from forging other Parish Council members names as reported at a meeting of St George parishioners chaired by bishop Mark!
What was the last year the Diocese of Toledo had 1000 attendees?
MP does not even know the cost of a gallon of milk or a loaf of bread!!!!!
MP is attempting to silence any voice asking for financial accountability - ost especially if he is a Bishop wedded to his Diocese.
If Metropolitan Philip is wed to 9 (NINE) Dioceses then he is the polygamist.
Where did he get his theological degree? Maybe Walid traffics theological degrees.
When will the people of the AOCA wake up?
Why does the Patriarch sit comfortably in his fortified PALACE while one of his bishops, the first convert bishop in north america for Antioch, sit idle while this character assasination takes place?
Why, oh why would anyone give another penny to this tyrant! ....
MP financial policy "two signatures on every check"!
That did not stop Fr Joseph Antypas from sucking a dead woman's name on checks as well as his own!
That did not stop the treasurer in Toledo from forging other Parish Council members names as reported at a meeting of St George parishioners chaired by bishop Mark!
What was the last year the Diocese of Toledo had 1000 attendees?
MP does not even know the cost of a gallon of milk or a loaf of bread!!!!!
MP is attempting to silence any voice asking for financial accountability - ost especially if he is a Bishop wedded to his Diocese.
If Metropolitan Philip is wed to 9 (NINE) Dioceses then he is the polygamist.
Where did he get his theological degree? Maybe Walid traffics theological degrees.
When will the people of the AOCA wake up?
Why does the Patriarch sit comfortably in his fortified PALACE while one of his bishops, the first convert bishop in north america for Antioch, sit idle while this character assasination takes place?
Why, oh why would anyone give another penny to this tyrant! ....
#8
Anonymous
on
2010-10-11 11:59
What propaganda! A vain attempt to rewrite history. Insisting on proper ecclesiology is an insult to those who know Orthodox ecclesiology.
Metropolitan Philip’s only regard for the sacred canons is how to use them in arbitrary ways. When +Philip requested and enacted the establishment of diocese and enthronement of diocesan bishops he unknowingly relinquished authority over those diocese. He can’t accept responsibility for his own actions. Such is the hazard of having years of unbridled power.
He wants to make Bishop Mark out to be incompetent or at best ineffective because +Mark will not cow tail to +Philip’s Arab buddies. To infer that +Mark was negligent over the financial embezzlement at His Cathedral is nonsense. In fact +Mark wanted full financial restitution while +Philip imposed his will to accept a smaller settlement. Why? To satisfy friends of friends. What about the serious financial questions being stonewalled in Troy, where +Philip’s main man forged the signature of the deceased treasurer with impunity? Knowledgeable insiders maintain possible financial shenanigans perpetrated by the priest and a well known archdiocesan trustee member. Yet these issues have gone uninvestigated because +Philip is blocking +Mark and those within the parish. There have been other parish embezzlements that have been kept from public exposure. If +Philip had true concern for accountability he would have embraced +Mark’s financial directive to his parishes instead of issuing a papal-like retraction. Contending that instead of spending money on audits, such money could go to better use for seminarians, the poor and for clergy retirement, consider the following: Only those seminarians that +Philip endorses get financial assistance. The local bishop is unable to make the decision based on his personal knowledge of the student. There has been no accounting for the money collected through the “Food for the Hungry” project. The Antiochian Archdiocese is the only major Orthodox jurisdiction in North America that does not have a vested retirement for its clergy. What is given is solely at the subjective discretion of the metropolitan. Good luck to those priests who aren’t in his favor.
+Philip’s opposition to the EA is based on his historical low regard and jealousy of the Greeks. In addition unlike the 1994 bishops assembly at the Village, +Philip is no longer in contention to succeed the aged chairman.
+Philip’s primary concern is maintaining authority and monetary control. Not only is it impossible for him to understand the dynamics of parishes and clergy that he’s not had contract with in years if ever, but such is not the historical structure of the church. Bishops are to be in seas that enable them to have regular interaction with parish clergy and laity. With his assertion that “members of the holy synod were upset” that American bishops wrote they are “wedded” to their diocese, perhaps the synod is again guilty of not reading (as they did not read documents from Chambesy) the praxis that was issued to the most recently consecrated bishops of NA and sleep-walking through the election, calling, consecration and enthronement of these same bishops. Among honest men, words reflect true meaning and are testament of character.
When +Philip said, “It depends on how much authority you give this bishop” this directly infers that Orthodoxy has different levels of hierarchical function. It does not. The only auxiliary bishops canonically provided are to assist primates of autocephalous churches. “We practice the canons of the Church perfectly in the Archdiocese,” please then just for one explain Joseph Allen? The answer is not “oiconomia” because such is setting aside the canons.
What has taken place over the past two years is likened to a “Greek” tragedy. The one thing +Philip says he wanted to preserve, unity of the archdiocese, has been seriously hurt. Because of limited travel he has lost the confidence of the silent majority of clergy and laity within and without the archdiocese that he once effectively led. Why? Only +Philip and God know. If he was sincere in saying “I am the least among my brothers. I am the servant of God’s servants” then before he irreparably destroys all credibility and leaves the legacy of a wounded archdiocese, he needs to talk privately with each local bishop and make peace by working thorny issues out in a respectful, equitable Orthodox manner. Using ill conceived power will only bear further hardship. Bishops must show all men that they are men of peace, concord and pure Orthodoxy.
Metropolitan Philip’s only regard for the sacred canons is how to use them in arbitrary ways. When +Philip requested and enacted the establishment of diocese and enthronement of diocesan bishops he unknowingly relinquished authority over those diocese. He can’t accept responsibility for his own actions. Such is the hazard of having years of unbridled power.
He wants to make Bishop Mark out to be incompetent or at best ineffective because +Mark will not cow tail to +Philip’s Arab buddies. To infer that +Mark was negligent over the financial embezzlement at His Cathedral is nonsense. In fact +Mark wanted full financial restitution while +Philip imposed his will to accept a smaller settlement. Why? To satisfy friends of friends. What about the serious financial questions being stonewalled in Troy, where +Philip’s main man forged the signature of the deceased treasurer with impunity? Knowledgeable insiders maintain possible financial shenanigans perpetrated by the priest and a well known archdiocesan trustee member. Yet these issues have gone uninvestigated because +Philip is blocking +Mark and those within the parish. There have been other parish embezzlements that have been kept from public exposure. If +Philip had true concern for accountability he would have embraced +Mark’s financial directive to his parishes instead of issuing a papal-like retraction. Contending that instead of spending money on audits, such money could go to better use for seminarians, the poor and for clergy retirement, consider the following: Only those seminarians that +Philip endorses get financial assistance. The local bishop is unable to make the decision based on his personal knowledge of the student. There has been no accounting for the money collected through the “Food for the Hungry” project. The Antiochian Archdiocese is the only major Orthodox jurisdiction in North America that does not have a vested retirement for its clergy. What is given is solely at the subjective discretion of the metropolitan. Good luck to those priests who aren’t in his favor.
+Philip’s opposition to the EA is based on his historical low regard and jealousy of the Greeks. In addition unlike the 1994 bishops assembly at the Village, +Philip is no longer in contention to succeed the aged chairman.
+Philip’s primary concern is maintaining authority and monetary control. Not only is it impossible for him to understand the dynamics of parishes and clergy that he’s not had contract with in years if ever, but such is not the historical structure of the church. Bishops are to be in seas that enable them to have regular interaction with parish clergy and laity. With his assertion that “members of the holy synod were upset” that American bishops wrote they are “wedded” to their diocese, perhaps the synod is again guilty of not reading (as they did not read documents from Chambesy) the praxis that was issued to the most recently consecrated bishops of NA and sleep-walking through the election, calling, consecration and enthronement of these same bishops. Among honest men, words reflect true meaning and are testament of character.
When +Philip said, “It depends on how much authority you give this bishop” this directly infers that Orthodoxy has different levels of hierarchical function. It does not. The only auxiliary bishops canonically provided are to assist primates of autocephalous churches. “We practice the canons of the Church perfectly in the Archdiocese,” please then just for one explain Joseph Allen? The answer is not “oiconomia” because such is setting aside the canons.
What has taken place over the past two years is likened to a “Greek” tragedy. The one thing +Philip says he wanted to preserve, unity of the archdiocese, has been seriously hurt. Because of limited travel he has lost the confidence of the silent majority of clergy and laity within and without the archdiocese that he once effectively led. Why? Only +Philip and God know. If he was sincere in saying “I am the least among my brothers. I am the servant of God’s servants” then before he irreparably destroys all credibility and leaves the legacy of a wounded archdiocese, he needs to talk privately with each local bishop and make peace by working thorny issues out in a respectful, equitable Orthodox manner. Using ill conceived power will only bear further hardship. Bishops must show all men that they are men of peace, concord and pure Orthodoxy.
#9
A Philadelphia Canonist
on
2010-10-11 12:08
Gee, maybe after using +Nikolai as a "character witness" in the situation about +Archbishop Seraphim, +Philip can also use +Nikolai to bolster his shoddy claims, hmmm??
#10
David Barrett
on
2010-10-11 12:54
Wonderful interview....candid and direct. i respect and love our dear metropolitan. i am thankful that he is going to remove bishop mark from this diocese. my only concern is where sayidna philip will put him for fear of destroying another region with bishop mark's shortcomings.
#11
Anonymous
on
2010-10-11 13:31
someone aought to slam mark stokoe...
(Editor's note: It's been done. On a regular basis if you read some other websites.
)
(Editor's note: It's been done. On a regular basis if you read some other websites.
)
#12
Anonymous
on
2010-10-11 13:32
The TRUTH of the lack of response to AOCNA Mid West P. Life gatherings is Met. Philip HIMSELF!
Do we FORGET the small MidWest parish that took on such an undertaking a few yrs back? Met. P. was to be honored and the entire Ad book gave him congrats on his Anniv. celebration.
Did he show up NO!
But he that Fall went to Detroit for a large very ethnic parish ADULATION dinner.
Met. P. quotes the economy as a reason when he needs it! So he will come to the MidWest with a new Bishop to INSPIRE them (see Allen interview). It's the location and the $$$. Blame worthy Bishop Mark? How sa d and very UNTRUTHFUL!
Do we FORGET the small MidWest parish that took on such an undertaking a few yrs back? Met. P. was to be honored and the entire Ad book gave him congrats on his Anniv. celebration.
Did he show up NO!
But he that Fall went to Detroit for a large very ethnic parish ADULATION dinner.
Met. P. quotes the economy as a reason when he needs it! So he will come to the MidWest with a new Bishop to INSPIRE them (see Allen interview). It's the location and the $$$. Blame worthy Bishop Mark? How sa d and very UNTRUTHFUL!
#13
Anonymous Priest
on
2010-10-11 13:49
Every word here is the truth. And as to the "vested" Retirement. WHAT retirement? It is a housing allowance (currently $800. month) invented to over ride the program of deducting 4% fromn a clergy salary and having the parish match it. As is done in the OCA and Greek Church. I know as my relatives belong to both and verify this. And don't believe it that the Metropolitan will ever allow this to be vested!
And good point - what of Joe Allen (the Twice Married) and our following of "Orthodox Tradition"? Whose Tradition!
And good point - what of Joe Allen (the Twice Married) and our following of "Orthodox Tradition"? Whose Tradition!
#14
Anonymous Mid West DIOCESE Priest
on
2010-10-11 13:58
In 2003 Dioese of Toledo then Midwest Region had 1003 registered.
#15
Anonymous
on
2010-10-11 14:31
LOL! I don't know whats funnier, your post or the fact that you probably believe it!
#16
Antionymous
on
2010-10-11 15:53
So, I listened to the podcast. Classic + Philip! Some good stuff, some bad.
1) First off, + Philip reaffirmed that HE was in full control. He has always been a dictator and will be to his grave. A benevolent dictator? It depends who you talk to.
2) He believed in SCOBA and didn't see why there had to be an Episcopal Assembly - HERE, HERE! The EP is bogus attempt at unity and the destruction of SCOBA is criminal!
3) He was absolutely correct regarding + Jonah and the OCA bishops. They let the Greeks step all over them. + Jonah can be replaced and the laos will never agree to "modifying" autocephaly.
4) When asked about joining the OCA, he was cagey speaking of the OCA's recent issues. He didn't address how his teachers, Frs. Schmemann & Meyendorff and he used to meet over this issue in the late 60's into the 70's and he led them on about uniting the OCA & AOCA. WHY? Re-read # 1. + Philip always had to be in FULL control and joining the OCA in his opinion, wouldn't have allowed this. His legacy is to be the head tribal leader of his people who was benevolent - the jury is out!
5) His take on unity - dismal. I agree. No one is going to submit themselves to a foreign bishop - certainly not us in the OCA - no matter what.
6) He is correct in the ONLY way to obtain unity is for ALL the bishops in the Episcopal Assembly to announce that they are all now AUTOCEPHALOUS and uniting in an American Synod of Bishops electing their own head.
7) The remark made by some Greek that the OCA's autocephaly is non-canonical is just plain wrong. There are no Orthodox Canons stating who can or cannot grant autocephaly. The OCA's autocephaly is FULLY canonical!
1) First off, + Philip reaffirmed that HE was in full control. He has always been a dictator and will be to his grave. A benevolent dictator? It depends who you talk to.
2) He believed in SCOBA and didn't see why there had to be an Episcopal Assembly - HERE, HERE! The EP is bogus attempt at unity and the destruction of SCOBA is criminal!
3) He was absolutely correct regarding + Jonah and the OCA bishops. They let the Greeks step all over them. + Jonah can be replaced and the laos will never agree to "modifying" autocephaly.
4) When asked about joining the OCA, he was cagey speaking of the OCA's recent issues. He didn't address how his teachers, Frs. Schmemann & Meyendorff and he used to meet over this issue in the late 60's into the 70's and he led them on about uniting the OCA & AOCA. WHY? Re-read # 1. + Philip always had to be in FULL control and joining the OCA in his opinion, wouldn't have allowed this. His legacy is to be the head tribal leader of his people who was benevolent - the jury is out!
5) His take on unity - dismal. I agree. No one is going to submit themselves to a foreign bishop - certainly not us in the OCA - no matter what.
6) He is correct in the ONLY way to obtain unity is for ALL the bishops in the Episcopal Assembly to announce that they are all now AUTOCEPHALOUS and uniting in an American Synod of Bishops electing their own head.
7) The remark made by some Greek that the OCA's autocephaly is non-canonical is just plain wrong. There are no Orthodox Canons stating who can or cannot grant autocephaly. The OCA's autocephaly is FULLY canonical!
#17
Anonymous
on
2010-10-11 16:17
Pathetic!
Shame on you Mr. Barrett, and from a resident of the land of Job.
I may not approve or like everything that Metropolitan Philip says or does, but then, why should I. Come to think of it, why should Metropolitan Philip try to please me, or any of us.
The choices in this country, so far, for leadership seem to break across three lines. 1.) The smelly holier than thou, death lovers. 2.) The damp and limp cardboard cut out types like Jonah, and 3.) Metropolitan Philip's xxxxx of steel.
So far, until Nirvana arrives and His Holiness Patriarch of Open Transparency of All America arrives, I'm on Team Philip. I don't give a rats ass about his millions, I'm glad he is well off. I don't care about all the whinny Antiochian bishops either. Look boys! After Uncle Phil is dead, you can bring your game! Philip has been doing it bigger and longer than you!
Finally a bishop that can open his mouth and say something other than the usual crap.
Lets finally elect a bishop that can say yes or no! Remember Job? He knew how. Meanwhile chase all the pie in the sky you want. Give me someone that is on the ground now, capable of decision making.
(Editor's Note: For anyone who may be shocked by the writer's opinions, I suggest you read Dostoeveky's Legend of the Grand Inquisitor. He said it first, and better. )
Shame on you Mr. Barrett, and from a resident of the land of Job.
I may not approve or like everything that Metropolitan Philip says or does, but then, why should I. Come to think of it, why should Metropolitan Philip try to please me, or any of us.
The choices in this country, so far, for leadership seem to break across three lines. 1.) The smelly holier than thou, death lovers. 2.) The damp and limp cardboard cut out types like Jonah, and 3.) Metropolitan Philip's xxxxx of steel.
So far, until Nirvana arrives and His Holiness Patriarch of Open Transparency of All America arrives, I'm on Team Philip. I don't give a rats ass about his millions, I'm glad he is well off. I don't care about all the whinny Antiochian bishops either. Look boys! After Uncle Phil is dead, you can bring your game! Philip has been doing it bigger and longer than you!
Finally a bishop that can open his mouth and say something other than the usual crap.
Lets finally elect a bishop that can say yes or no! Remember Job? He knew how. Meanwhile chase all the pie in the sky you want. Give me someone that is on the ground now, capable of decision making.
(Editor's Note: For anyone who may be shocked by the writer's opinions, I suggest you read Dostoeveky's Legend of the Grand Inquisitor. He said it first, and better. )
#18
no name
on
2010-10-11 16:24
Happy asks: "How can someone find argument with what he said, if so please post."
Let me count the ways:
1. Metropolitan Philip maintains that an external audit will cost $150,000. He acknowledges receiving “millions” in gifts so why would he object to spending a mere pittance on an audit which most organizations do on a routine basis?
2. Metropolitan Philip indicates that “some people suggested that all the parishes be audited.” In fact it was Metropolitan Philip who suggested this, using it as an excuse not to do an external audit. He estimates that it would cost $1,000,000, which would be better spent on HIS seminarians, HIS clergy retirement fund and of course, the poor. Notice how often he refers to that which belongs to the Archdiocese as “his.”
3. Metropolitan Philip says an external audit is “foolish,” because “we are like an open book in this Archdiocese.” If this were the case, why would he not confirm or deny whether or not we are paying Bishop Demetri's living expenses?
4. Metropolitan Philip will not allow an internal audit of the stipends and gifts he receives, though he maintains that it is not his money. He later contradicts himself by saying, “ . . . it is MY business how much money I have. . . This is MY money which I have accumulated and I have the right to designate where this money goes . . .” (Paraphrasing here.) He goes on to say, he consulted “very brilliant lawyers” and the “highest, highest, highest taxation authority in this county” and discovered it was within his rights to spend this money as he sees fit. “I cannot give money to my family, I cannot give this money to my nephew, . . . ahhh, I can’t give it to any – because I did not, I am not paying tax. How can you give – you will land in jail.“ Why is he stumbling? Why can’t he give this money to his family? He can’t because it’s attached to a 501 (c) (3) and he’s not paying taxes on it. The IRS says, "No part of the net earnings of a section 501(c)(3) organization may inure to the benefit of any private shareholder or individual." How can spending the Archdiocese’s money, independently and in secret, not be construed as a “benefit” to a private individual? It’s either our money or it’s not. If it’s our money, we have the right to know where it’s going. If it’s his money, he needs to be paying taxes on it.
5. When Kevin asks if Metropolitan Philip thinks an internal audit will satisfy those calling for an external audit, Metropolitan Philip says something to the effect that if it doesn’t, “they can go and jump;” further indication that he feel he is in complete control.
I wish Kevin had asked why Metropolitan Philip feels the need to conceal his stipends and gifts from the internal audit committee. If we are "like an open book in this Archdiocese," why the need to hide anything, particularly from people in whom he has "full confidence?"
Hope this answers your question, Happy.
Let me count the ways:
1. Metropolitan Philip maintains that an external audit will cost $150,000. He acknowledges receiving “millions” in gifts so why would he object to spending a mere pittance on an audit which most organizations do on a routine basis?
2. Metropolitan Philip indicates that “some people suggested that all the parishes be audited.” In fact it was Metropolitan Philip who suggested this, using it as an excuse not to do an external audit. He estimates that it would cost $1,000,000, which would be better spent on HIS seminarians, HIS clergy retirement fund and of course, the poor. Notice how often he refers to that which belongs to the Archdiocese as “his.”
3. Metropolitan Philip says an external audit is “foolish,” because “we are like an open book in this Archdiocese.” If this were the case, why would he not confirm or deny whether or not we are paying Bishop Demetri's living expenses?
4. Metropolitan Philip will not allow an internal audit of the stipends and gifts he receives, though he maintains that it is not his money. He later contradicts himself by saying, “ . . . it is MY business how much money I have. . . This is MY money which I have accumulated and I have the right to designate where this money goes . . .” (Paraphrasing here.) He goes on to say, he consulted “very brilliant lawyers” and the “highest, highest, highest taxation authority in this county” and discovered it was within his rights to spend this money as he sees fit. “I cannot give money to my family, I cannot give this money to my nephew, . . . ahhh, I can’t give it to any – because I did not, I am not paying tax. How can you give – you will land in jail.“ Why is he stumbling? Why can’t he give this money to his family? He can’t because it’s attached to a 501 (c) (3) and he’s not paying taxes on it. The IRS says, "No part of the net earnings of a section 501(c)(3) organization may inure to the benefit of any private shareholder or individual." How can spending the Archdiocese’s money, independently and in secret, not be construed as a “benefit” to a private individual? It’s either our money or it’s not. If it’s our money, we have the right to know where it’s going. If it’s his money, he needs to be paying taxes on it.
5. When Kevin asks if Metropolitan Philip thinks an internal audit will satisfy those calling for an external audit, Metropolitan Philip says something to the effect that if it doesn’t, “they can go and jump;” further indication that he feel he is in complete control.
I wish Kevin had asked why Metropolitan Philip feels the need to conceal his stipends and gifts from the internal audit committee. If we are "like an open book in this Archdiocese," why the need to hide anything, particularly from people in whom he has "full confidence?"
Hope this answers your question, Happy.
#19
Gail Sheppard
on
2010-10-11 16:28
Thanks be to God for His Eminence Metropolitan PHILIP! May God grant him many more years of health as he leads our archdiocese. I appreciate all that he does for us and this archdiocese. Others should do likewise.
#20
Anonymous
on
2010-10-11 16:37
I'm not entirely sure of your point, but the retirement system should be vested. As is currently the case, we have clergy openly condemmed for sexual misconduct who receive the retirement while retired clergy who have never been condemmed for any misconduct who are denied the retirement, and who are suffering greatly for that denail.
Let me disagree as well: just because a clergyman has been married twice doesn't condemn them eternally to your Pharise-ism and letter-of-the-law above spirit-of-the-law-ism. Oh that we were willing to accept some clergy who were married twice (who may or may not have returned to the clergy), who have achieved remarkable accomplishments over those who have failed miserably as able shepherds of flocks. Perhaps it is time we accept love, forgiveness and pastoral accomplishment over those 'acceptable' but failures.
Let me disagree as well: just because a clergyman has been married twice doesn't condemn them eternally to your Pharise-ism and letter-of-the-law above spirit-of-the-law-ism. Oh that we were willing to accept some clergy who were married twice (who may or may not have returned to the clergy), who have achieved remarkable accomplishments over those who have failed miserably as able shepherds of flocks. Perhaps it is time we accept love, forgiveness and pastoral accomplishment over those 'acceptable' but failures.
#21
Sean O'Clare
on
2010-10-11 16:51
Mark ... I love your comments ... thank you!!!
#22
Sean O'Clare
on
2010-10-11 16:56
If you read this interview one of MP's answers contradicts the other. This man needs to retire for the good of the church.
#23
Ted P
on
2010-10-11 17:12
If you give your Parish Priest money for a weeding, Baptism or House Blessing, does that money belong to the Parish or to the Priest personally? It is the same exact thing! Money given to the MEtropolitan is his personal money not that fo the church, and upon His death they money goes to the archdiocese.
If Metropolitan PHILIP would retire one day who will support him?
If Metropolitan PHILIP would retire one day who will support him?
#24
Anonymous
on
2010-10-11 17:29
This reader is struck by the paradoxical obsequious persistence of the interviewers. Most old world bishops I have met have nurtured an intimidating demeanor as has Met. Philip. Perhaps it is a persona of survival. Would that our Christian Faith could rise above such facades and we could truly meet Jesus in our bishops. Perhaps this is an impossible vision this side of heaven.
(Mark, consider yourself counter-slammed
(Editor's note: Lord Almighty, 10 syllables in only 3 words in just the first sentence! But a worthy sentiment, and one that I can testify has been done, by me. I can name three bishops off hand in whom one saw no facade, but only Christ's love. One is still in ministry on this side of the great divide, even. Would that it were the norm, rather than the exception. And thanks for the slam.)
(Mark, consider yourself counter-slammed
(Editor's note: Lord Almighty, 10 syllables in only 3 words in just the first sentence! But a worthy sentiment, and one that I can testify has been done, by me. I can name three bishops off hand in whom one saw no facade, but only Christ's love. One is still in ministry on this side of the great divide, even. Would that it were the norm, rather than the exception. And thanks for the slam.)
#25
Anon.
on
2010-10-11 17:56
"No Name" (another person who is too cowardly to use their real name), You use phrases like "rats ass" and "usual crap," then say shame on *me*? Wow, talk about the pot calling the kettle black!?!?!
#26
David Barrett
on
2010-10-11 19:01
As someone who left the OCA after our parish received a "silence - no speaking of the matter" letter from our then Bishop, I have a more nuanced view of MP's "slam" of the OCA. On the other hand, I (as MP does) appreciate the OCA's place as a check against an attempt by Istanbul to impose itself on our situation here in America. Like MP, I also appreciate Moscow's role in this.
For many administrative unity is some sort of magical black box out of which will come the solutions to all our problems. Even MP himself is seduced by this notion, when he says (at the end of the interview) that we could convert America (going from memory) if we had administrative unity. I don't see how administrative unity matters one whit when Orthodoxy is still a "foreign" experience.
In any case, his frank admission that the "episcopal assembly" is an effort by Istanbul to impose it's will and as such not an improvement over SCOBA is refreshingly honest.
I don't attend an Antiochian parish, but I have in the past without knowing too much about MP. From this interview one can tell that he is, how should I put this, an ego of the second if not first order. Still I think he is right about many things - particularly in the last part of the interview.
I can say this: When the Antiochian's showed the courage of their Faith and morals by dropping out of the NCC, that goes a long way with me. Staying in the NCC as the OCA, GOA, etc. have is evidence of ignorance at best, sloppiness and rot at worse.
For many administrative unity is some sort of magical black box out of which will come the solutions to all our problems. Even MP himself is seduced by this notion, when he says (at the end of the interview) that we could convert America (going from memory) if we had administrative unity. I don't see how administrative unity matters one whit when Orthodoxy is still a "foreign" experience.
In any case, his frank admission that the "episcopal assembly" is an effort by Istanbul to impose it's will and as such not an improvement over SCOBA is refreshingly honest.
I don't attend an Antiochian parish, but I have in the past without knowing too much about MP. From this interview one can tell that he is, how should I put this, an ego of the second if not first order. Still I think he is right about many things - particularly in the last part of the interview.
I can say this: When the Antiochian's showed the courage of their Faith and morals by dropping out of the NCC, that goes a long way with me. Staying in the NCC as the OCA, GOA, etc. have is evidence of ignorance at best, sloppiness and rot at worse.
#27
Christopher
on
2010-10-11 19:12
Metropolitan Philip not only belittles his "brother" bishops, he completely insults the GOA, OCA & he belittles the entire essence of Orthodoxy with his dictatorship style.
He fights the good fight and tries to convince us that all was done so that the Mother Church does not interfere administratively. Got it, yet the Mother Church chooses the primate. This is "self ruled"??? Come one. Yet the Metropolitan says that only he is wed to the church in the US and everyone must listen to only him.
What I get out of the above scenario is we do not need to listen to the Mother Church, we do not need to listen to any bishop (regardless if they are ruling bishops or auxiliaries). ALL other bishops in other jurisdictions are WRONG. The Episcopal Assembly isn't correct. The Mother Church doesn't know anything because they didn't read the agreement. SO, we ONLY need to listen to this Metropolitan and we will be saved.
There is something WRONG with this picture. If I may ask, who does have the authority to reprimand this Metropolitan? He is being rude & disrespectful to world Orthodoxy.
He fights the good fight and tries to convince us that all was done so that the Mother Church does not interfere administratively. Got it, yet the Mother Church chooses the primate. This is "self ruled"??? Come one. Yet the Metropolitan says that only he is wed to the church in the US and everyone must listen to only him.
What I get out of the above scenario is we do not need to listen to the Mother Church, we do not need to listen to any bishop (regardless if they are ruling bishops or auxiliaries). ALL other bishops in other jurisdictions are WRONG. The Episcopal Assembly isn't correct. The Mother Church doesn't know anything because they didn't read the agreement. SO, we ONLY need to listen to this Metropolitan and we will be saved.
There is something WRONG with this picture. If I may ask, who does have the authority to reprimand this Metropolitan? He is being rude & disrespectful to world Orthodoxy.
#28
Gregory Harlan
on
2010-10-11 19:24
In a comment from Gail, she mentioned that Met P. does not pay taxes. How could that be? He is not exempt from income taxes because he is a bishop
#29
anon
on
2010-10-12 02:17
Metropolitan Philip makes very good points regarding the GOA and OCA as well as very keen insight into what has been taking place all across the archdiocese with his bishops. if unity on this continent is to take place, we need a leader like metropolitan philip who has the vision and inspiration to bring about such change. as he said we cannot have fragmentation within this archdiocese and if there are bishops that are doing such, then they need to be replaced with those that are disciplined and in line with what our visionary leader takes us. thus, i pray that God grant him many, many, many more fruitful years in His service.
#30
Anonymous
on
2010-10-12 03:57
Well, well, the measure of a good bishop is based on attendance at the parish life conference. I hope the Lord Jesus knows this. Over 10 years ago Bishop Demetri felt the PLC was dying. Historically they were Arabic social festivals that people attended to hang with old friends and youth went to seek out the opposite sex. Now fast forward to the 21st Century. Family life is diversified, parents and children are involved in too many activities to spend 4 or 5 days for what? Overpriced social events and costly hotels. The numbers that Metropolitan Philip site are from many years ago and reflect the number of people who had to register to attend the weekend Hafli (dance) which was the PLC main attraction. Add that to the worst economy since the Great Depression and people don’t have the money, time and interest to participate in these dinosaur events.
Once again +Philip shows that he is out of touch with reality. If he thinks that his personal appearance is going to revitalize the PLC then his time capsule really is stuck in reverse....
Once again +Philip shows that he is out of touch with reality. If he thinks that his personal appearance is going to revitalize the PLC then his time capsule really is stuck in reverse....
#31
An Antiochian Sociologist
on
2010-10-12 05:33
I notice Met. Philip takes particular relish in calling my Patriarch the "Patriarch of Istanbul." In that case, to be honest and factual, we should refer to his as the "Patriarch of Damascus."
And I would note that while the Oecumenical Synods have made Antioch third in the taxis of the world's Orthodox Churches, after Constantinople and Alexandria, no council ever said a thing about Damascus. (Constantinople and Istanbul are, of course, the same city regardless of what it is called by some... unlike Antioch and Damascus.)
With love of Christ's Holy Orthodox Church,
Rd. DC
And I would note that while the Oecumenical Synods have made Antioch third in the taxis of the world's Orthodox Churches, after Constantinople and Alexandria, no council ever said a thing about Damascus. (Constantinople and Istanbul are, of course, the same city regardless of what it is called by some... unlike Antioch and Damascus.)
With love of Christ's Holy Orthodox Church,
Rd. DC
The main issue, in my opinion, that Met. Philip shed light on was how the Episcopal Assembly was deeply flawed. He said clearly what everyone has been saying, this assembly gives all power to + Bart who can REJECT anything decided by the assembly. Basically, giving + Bart complete power and authority over N. Am. I agree with him! Thank God the Assembly has NO canonical authority and should fail. REVIVE SCOBA AND GET RID OF THE EP.ASS - SCOBA HAS A CONSTITUTION!!!!!!!
#33
Anonymous
on
2010-10-12 06:34
I agree with No Name.
#34
Happy Barrett
on
2010-10-12 07:00
Met. Philip is the one CAUSING the fragmentation.....don't you get it? The emperor has no clothes! Stop drinking the kool-aid!
#35
Antionymous
on
2010-10-12 07:21
His comments were very confusing. Either the money he claims is his belongs to him (and is thus taxable personally), or it belongs to the Archdiocese (and therefore is not his and should be audited). Thi is the section I refer to, which is appropriately called a "red light."
"There is one thing. There is only one red light. I told the committee of internal audit, you can audit everything in this archdiocese except one thing. The money which I have accumulated from my stipend and from gifts that general people gave me, and this money, I can show you the papers if you want, this money is entitled in the name of the archdiocese, Archbishop Philip Saliba.
And I have checked with very brilliant lawyers. I checked with the highest, highest, highest taxation authority in this country, and they said you have no problem. You don’t own anything. And I don’t own anything. I don’t own even this jacket. So, I told them, you can audit everything except this: the money which I am supervising and which I will leave to the archdiocese, and the archdiocese will be in good shape. I don’t have hundreds of millions of dollars. I have a few million dollars, OK? I am going to leave it to the archdiocese. "
So it's not his money, actually. Fishy. Fishy. Fishy.
"There is one thing. There is only one red light. I told the committee of internal audit, you can audit everything in this archdiocese except one thing. The money which I have accumulated from my stipend and from gifts that general people gave me, and this money, I can show you the papers if you want, this money is entitled in the name of the archdiocese, Archbishop Philip Saliba.
And I have checked with very brilliant lawyers. I checked with the highest, highest, highest taxation authority in this country, and they said you have no problem. You don’t own anything. And I don’t own anything. I don’t own even this jacket. So, I told them, you can audit everything except this: the money which I am supervising and which I will leave to the archdiocese, and the archdiocese will be in good shape. I don’t have hundreds of millions of dollars. I have a few million dollars, OK? I am going to leave it to the archdiocese. "
So it's not his money, actually. Fishy. Fishy. Fishy.
#36
Nonymoose
on
2010-10-12 07:31
A prior pope from the Latin Tradition was heard to remark while walking by St. Peter's Basilica"Well I guess we can't say silver and gold have we none" One wonders why His Eminence bristles at papal comparisons when he does all that he can, to parrot each and every medieval pretension or excess, ecclessiastical or otherwise?
Well the good news is that famed televangelist Bennie Hinn is now seriously considering re-converting. Upon hearing about his counterpart in Englewood he confessed he was unaware of the "treasures" of Holy Orthodxy and is now eager to explore the possibilities.
At least the new vestments would be a huge improvement over the goofy nerhu jacket design he favors now.
Will he have to take the St. Stephen's Course or will life expierences be sufficient for ordination?
Well the good news is that famed televangelist Bennie Hinn is now seriously considering re-converting. Upon hearing about his counterpart in Englewood he confessed he was unaware of the "treasures" of Holy Orthodxy and is now eager to explore the possibilities.
At least the new vestments would be a huge improvement over the goofy nerhu jacket design he favors now.
Will he have to take the St. Stephen's Course or will life expierences be sufficient for ordination?
#37
Kevin Kirwan
on
2010-10-12 07:31
It doesn't surprise me this would be your post. So here I go:
1. Gifts are his. Give me a break else we should ask to see your personal savings account or actually your employer should ask to see it and say, I paid you this much...show me what you have and do with it..this is totally wrong.
2. I agree with you in this regard, I think all parishes should be audited once in a while just to maintain order and make sure things are correct, not out of speculation but for maintenance. But also keep in mind, many many parish priests that have passed on and/or retired have/or are getting barely anything in retirement. This money should go to them first and foremost for compensating them with somewhat a decent retirement for the sacrifice they gave to thousands of individual souls like yours and mine, maybe someone else can donate for that cause or something.
3. Let me explain in laymans terms...having an external audit is foolish and I agree. Here is an example why...many people go to family doctors within the parish that they know personally. They trust their lives with these doctors. Now, having an external audit is like basically saying, I don't want to go to this doctor because he is part of the church...I need to go to an outside, non-orthodox doctor to make sure. This is BS! We have several extremely top of the line auditors in our archdiocese. If something is caught during an audit, you know, I bet with compassion and extreme seriousness they will explain that it needs to be corrected immediately, even if it was an accident..I hope you see my point in regards to internal and external audits...I will always go to a Orthodox doctor first because why, I know him and trust his work.
4. Again Gail, this is HIS money. If I gave him $50 for a gift, which i have before, I expect that to go to him and is his discretion to do whatever he wants. I know $50 is pennys in regards to others but still the point is, it's His, I meant it for him else I would have donated to the Archdiocese directly.
Big freaking deal, it's his money that people gave to him for goodness sakes again.
How much money you have, please post your tax returns online for all of us to see too. (joke, don't take personally:))
5. It's called a figure of speech meaning, "give it up already. Why you keep bothering me over and over and over again."
Look, I'm sorry you have this frustration towards the Metropolitan but everything he said is correct, you have good points too and I agree in a select few but the gist is this: 1. It's his money, or at least the $50 I gave him personally to do what he wants with.
2. He is the Metropolitan.
3. We both know the Greeks want to run the church in America and can, I'd join them before OCA.
4. Bishop MARK is a good man, nice person, however he has made some mistakes just like our Metropolitan has too, but sometimes it's best to never try to over step your superior in terms of a job. I back PHILIP 100% though i do like Bishop MARK as a person, but not a leader.
We need Bishops like MP or BASIL that can speak without worry and not a soft humble man behind a sheet. Bishops need to SPEAK with conviction and show leadership, not weakness and who can be more pious than thou. Axios to PHILIP!!!! Many Years!
1. Gifts are his. Give me a break else we should ask to see your personal savings account or actually your employer should ask to see it and say, I paid you this much...show me what you have and do with it..this is totally wrong.
2. I agree with you in this regard, I think all parishes should be audited once in a while just to maintain order and make sure things are correct, not out of speculation but for maintenance. But also keep in mind, many many parish priests that have passed on and/or retired have/or are getting barely anything in retirement. This money should go to them first and foremost for compensating them with somewhat a decent retirement for the sacrifice they gave to thousands of individual souls like yours and mine, maybe someone else can donate for that cause or something.
3. Let me explain in laymans terms...having an external audit is foolish and I agree. Here is an example why...many people go to family doctors within the parish that they know personally. They trust their lives with these doctors. Now, having an external audit is like basically saying, I don't want to go to this doctor because he is part of the church...I need to go to an outside, non-orthodox doctor to make sure. This is BS! We have several extremely top of the line auditors in our archdiocese. If something is caught during an audit, you know, I bet with compassion and extreme seriousness they will explain that it needs to be corrected immediately, even if it was an accident..I hope you see my point in regards to internal and external audits...I will always go to a Orthodox doctor first because why, I know him and trust his work.
4. Again Gail, this is HIS money. If I gave him $50 for a gift, which i have before, I expect that to go to him and is his discretion to do whatever he wants. I know $50 is pennys in regards to others but still the point is, it's His, I meant it for him else I would have donated to the Archdiocese directly.
Big freaking deal, it's his money that people gave to him for goodness sakes again.
How much money you have, please post your tax returns online for all of us to see too. (joke, don't take personally:))
5. It's called a figure of speech meaning, "give it up already. Why you keep bothering me over and over and over again."
Look, I'm sorry you have this frustration towards the Metropolitan but everything he said is correct, you have good points too and I agree in a select few but the gist is this: 1. It's his money, or at least the $50 I gave him personally to do what he wants with.
2. He is the Metropolitan.
3. We both know the Greeks want to run the church in America and can, I'd join them before OCA.
4. Bishop MARK is a good man, nice person, however he has made some mistakes just like our Metropolitan has too, but sometimes it's best to never try to over step your superior in terms of a job. I back PHILIP 100% though i do like Bishop MARK as a person, but not a leader.
We need Bishops like MP or BASIL that can speak without worry and not a soft humble man behind a sheet. Bishops need to SPEAK with conviction and show leadership, not weakness and who can be more pious than thou. Axios to PHILIP!!!! Many Years!
#38
Happy to Sheppard
on
2010-10-12 07:38
It is not that complicated....it is Tax Evasion pure and simple!!!
I think that when an IRS auditor sees this interview and sees that there are at least 3 million dollars of unreported income MP will be calling those tax lawyers back for another consultation.
I think that when an IRS auditor sees this interview and sees that there are at least 3 million dollars of unreported income MP will be calling those tax lawyers back for another consultation.
#39
Delegate #1
on
2010-10-12 08:41
I agree completely. I know Bishop MARK personally, and I find as a spirtual man, however Bishop MARK have no administrative skills - with these short-commings is the root of all the problems in toledo, and after 6 years I think it is about time for a change.
#40
Anonymous
on
2010-10-12 08:47
I am struck by the degree to which, when +Philip discusses everyone below him, he feels the need for authority, of which he regards himself as the sole guarantor, and when he speaks of anyone else above him, he insists on being treated like an adult and belonging to a synod.
Self-Rule is meaningless if the rules are pretty much the private judgments and tastes of the Metropolitan. In fact, I would argue that the Archdiocese is not self-ruled, nor is it under the authority of Damascus either.
A very revealing interview.
Self-Rule is meaningless if the rules are pretty much the private judgments and tastes of the Metropolitan. In fact, I would argue that the Archdiocese is not self-ruled, nor is it under the authority of Damascus either.
A very revealing interview.
#41
Steve Knowlton
on
2010-10-12 08:50
This interview points us ever more away from patriarchs and autocrats and towards a synodal approach for church governance in N. America. We need strong lay trusteeship, and independent auditing. We are past the point of having to rely on the whims and vagaries of despotic personalities. If we cut the governance cord with the overseas patriarchs, then we don't need that skill set of having the closely "manage" them, either.
#42
mwp
on
2010-10-12 08:58
According to the following post at http://easuggestions.wordpress.com/2010/08/20/end-required-monasticism-for-bishops/:
"It is a tradition of the Russian church that all bishops be tonsured as monastics prior to their consecration if they are not already so. As such, some of the existing American jurisdictions have inherited this tradition (e.g., the OCA, the ROCOR, and the MP). From this tradition comes a common misconception that all Orthodox bishops everywhere are “supposed” to be monastics.
However,
"In the ancient patriarchates, as well as many other Orthodox churches, bishops are only expected to follow the ecumenical canons dealing with episcopal celibacy, most especially Canon 48 of the Quinisext Council... the reality is that, in America, at least, most of our bishops were never tonsured monks, nor were they ever expected to be."
Are, in fact, non-Russian bishops not expected to be tonsured as monastics, even nominally?
(Editor's note: I have yet to meet a bishop who was not tonsured, at least nominally, as a monk before consecration. Bishop Alexei of Joensuu, Finland, was a layman, not even a priest, when elected, but he too became a monk before consecration. Does anyone know any exceptions?
"It is a tradition of the Russian church that all bishops be tonsured as monastics prior to their consecration if they are not already so. As such, some of the existing American jurisdictions have inherited this tradition (e.g., the OCA, the ROCOR, and the MP). From this tradition comes a common misconception that all Orthodox bishops everywhere are “supposed” to be monastics.
However,
"In the ancient patriarchates, as well as many other Orthodox churches, bishops are only expected to follow the ecumenical canons dealing with episcopal celibacy, most especially Canon 48 of the Quinisext Council... the reality is that, in America, at least, most of our bishops were never tonsured monks, nor were they ever expected to be."
Are, in fact, non-Russian bishops not expected to be tonsured as monastics, even nominally?
(Editor's note: I have yet to meet a bishop who was not tonsured, at least nominally, as a monk before consecration. Bishop Alexei of Joensuu, Finland, was a layman, not even a priest, when elected, but he too became a monk before consecration. Does anyone know any exceptions?
#43
melxiopp
on
2010-10-12 09:06
Dear Anonymous,
You hit upon a point which I think really needs to be discussed, i.e. the "gifts" for priests, deacons and bishops. In the eyes of the IRS, a "gift" to a minister is not really a gift in most cases because the fact is that the "gift" would not have been given but by virtue of the position. When was the last time you got a $500 "gift" from someone at your work? Probably not. You may have received a bonus or a gift card (and, incidentally, most companies today are either treating these as taxable income and including them on your W-2 or 1099 or just eliminating them altogether).
Let's say, +Phillip goes to a 25th anniversary of a parish and receives a check for says $2,500 as a "gift." Is it really a "gift?" In the eyes of the IRS they would look at his position (Metropolitan), did he do anything that might be construed as work (Yes, he served a service) and would they have given the money otherwise, (No, the church wouldn't have given the money if he had said he wasn't coming). I suspect that a huge amount of money has gone into +Phillip's pockets in this manner and has escaped IRS scrutiny up until now. He has been very lucky up to this point that the IRS hasn't come knocking on his door.
You hit upon a point which I think really needs to be discussed, i.e. the "gifts" for priests, deacons and bishops. In the eyes of the IRS, a "gift" to a minister is not really a gift in most cases because the fact is that the "gift" would not have been given but by virtue of the position. When was the last time you got a $500 "gift" from someone at your work? Probably not. You may have received a bonus or a gift card (and, incidentally, most companies today are either treating these as taxable income and including them on your W-2 or 1099 or just eliminating them altogether).
Let's say, +Phillip goes to a 25th anniversary of a parish and receives a check for says $2,500 as a "gift." Is it really a "gift?" In the eyes of the IRS they would look at his position (Metropolitan), did he do anything that might be construed as work (Yes, he served a service) and would they have given the money otherwise, (No, the church wouldn't have given the money if he had said he wasn't coming). I suspect that a huge amount of money has gone into +Phillip's pockets in this manner and has escaped IRS scrutiny up until now. He has been very lucky up to this point that the IRS hasn't come knocking on his door.
#44
Orthodox Accountant
on
2010-10-12 10:04
We can argue about who has what but the bottom line is that all we have is from and for the Lord and all of us will be required to give an accounting of our stewardship. No matter how each of us may keep our personal books, God knows exactly what's stored in heaven and what will be left to the moths and rust.
Fr John Chagnon
St. Paul, MN
Fr John Chagnon
St. Paul, MN
{{{4. Bishop MARK is a good man, nice person, however he has made some mistakes just like our Metropolitan has too, but sometimes it's best to never try to over step your superior in terms of a job. I back PHILIP 100% though i do like Bishop MARK as a person, but not a leader.}}}
An example, please?
An example, please?
#46
Antionymous
on
2010-10-12 10:25
Editor: You are incorrect about bishops and monasticism. It is a common error, but it is based on a standard that exists in the Russian church and some others, but not in the ancient patriarchates. The canons do not require all bishops to be monks, only that (if married), they no longer live with their wives and see to their support. (See the Council in Trullo.)
Part of the irony of this standard, of course, is that numerous Russian bishops are "monks" but have never lived as monastics in any real way. They just have the outfit.
Most of the bishops of the ancient patriarchates have never been tonsured as monastics. Among the Antiochian bishops in America, only Bp. Basil is a monk.
This is not a "fudge." It's just that not everyone is Russian. (Surprise!)
(Editor's note: Well, there you go. Live and learn. I asked for an example and you gave me 5. Thank you! How about the Greeks?)
Part of the irony of this standard, of course, is that numerous Russian bishops are "monks" but have never lived as monastics in any real way. They just have the outfit.
Most of the bishops of the ancient patriarchates have never been tonsured as monastics. Among the Antiochian bishops in America, only Bp. Basil is a monk.
This is not a "fudge." It's just that not everyone is Russian. (Surprise!)
(Editor's note: Well, there you go. Live and learn. I asked for an example and you gave me 5. Thank you! How about the Greeks?)
#47
A Reader
on
2010-10-12 10:31
I think the more interesting question is why the Metropolitan would talk, rather emphatically, about his personal wealth. He was not asked about his wealth, but merely about an audit. When the question was clarified (internal or external), His Eminence again spoke about his personal wealth. Why? Why even mention it? Why keep harping on it?
#48
verily anon
on
2010-10-12 11:35
Additionally, MP expects $5000.00 for a visit.
A few of the Antiochian bishops stipulate a scedule of so-called stipend based on size of the parish.
If there is a schedule according to size it is viewed as a charge and is taxable.
MP is a shrewd and cunning peddler....
A few of the Antiochian bishops stipulate a scedule of so-called stipend based on size of the parish.
If there is a schedule according to size it is viewed as a charge and is taxable.
MP is a shrewd and cunning peddler....
#49
Anonymous
on
2010-10-12 14:03
I appreciate your response. I'm not the rabble-rouser that you think I am. Perhaps one day we will meet and you will see for yourself. Like you, I care deeply about the Church.
My concern is not with the $50 you gave Metropolitan Philip. My concern is with the millions in undeclared gifts that he says are "his."
To use your analogy in a slightly different way, Metropolitan Philip has weakened our "Body" by doing the following:
a. Posting fraudulent documents on our website
b. Spending/hiding substantial sums of money from both the IRS and the Archdiocese
c. Demoting our bishops
d. Including known felons in his inner circle
e. Jerking our seminary students around to punish his adversaries
f. Making up his own rules
These "symptoms" are indicative of something more insidious going on inside. The necessary "tests" haven't been ordered so we need to get an "outside opinion." I'm sure there are "specialists" in the Orthodox community. If the "tests" confirm we are "sick," we have the opportunity to cut out this "cancer" before it consumes us. If we're given a "clean bill of health," we can praise God and move on.
Let me ask you a rhetorical question: If (God forbid) you were ill and you had the means, wouldn't $150,000 be worth the peace of mind of knowing what, if anything, was wrong? - That's all I'm asking for, my friend, peace of mind.
Please sign the petition.
http://www.petitiononline.com/Audit/petition.html
My concern is not with the $50 you gave Metropolitan Philip. My concern is with the millions in undeclared gifts that he says are "his."
To use your analogy in a slightly different way, Metropolitan Philip has weakened our "Body" by doing the following:
a. Posting fraudulent documents on our website
b. Spending/hiding substantial sums of money from both the IRS and the Archdiocese
c. Demoting our bishops
d. Including known felons in his inner circle
e. Jerking our seminary students around to punish his adversaries
f. Making up his own rules
These "symptoms" are indicative of something more insidious going on inside. The necessary "tests" haven't been ordered so we need to get an "outside opinion." I'm sure there are "specialists" in the Orthodox community. If the "tests" confirm we are "sick," we have the opportunity to cut out this "cancer" before it consumes us. If we're given a "clean bill of health," we can praise God and move on.
Let me ask you a rhetorical question: If (God forbid) you were ill and you had the means, wouldn't $150,000 be worth the peace of mind of knowing what, if anything, was wrong? - That's all I'm asking for, my friend, peace of mind.
Please sign the petition.
http://www.petitiononline.com/Audit/petition.html
#50
Gail Sheppard
on
2010-10-12 14:06
No one can use registration as an indicator of attendance at the parish life conference.
In Chicago many people who attend only the Hafli, including Muslims pay a registration fee to attend the Hafli
Room nights are a better indicator of actual participation.
Who would go to Cincinnati when Walid Khalife was sending email threats against bishop Mark indicating bodily harm. His threats were also against his faithful clergy.
At times one could see the swat team walking everywhere in the hotel with the bishop.
Why? Because Walid is a board of trustee member from Troy MI where Fr Joseph Antypas was forging checks.
Why does MP protect Fr Antypas, Walid Khalife, etc.?
The treasurer was excmunicated for attempting to get financial records by Fr Joseph Antypas.
No Audit for Troy and the parish is dying!
What are they hiding?
HUD housing refinanced after 27 years for 6 million.
Money, money, money!
MP is trimming up bogus accusations which cannot be substantiated....
In Chicago many people who attend only the Hafli, including Muslims pay a registration fee to attend the Hafli
Room nights are a better indicator of actual participation.
Who would go to Cincinnati when Walid Khalife was sending email threats against bishop Mark indicating bodily harm. His threats were also against his faithful clergy.
At times one could see the swat team walking everywhere in the hotel with the bishop.
Why? Because Walid is a board of trustee member from Troy MI where Fr Joseph Antypas was forging checks.
Why does MP protect Fr Antypas, Walid Khalife, etc.?
The treasurer was excmunicated for attempting to get financial records by Fr Joseph Antypas.
No Audit for Troy and the parish is dying!
What are they hiding?
HUD housing refinanced after 27 years for 6 million.
Money, money, money!
MP is trimming up bogus accusations which cannot be substantiated....
#51
Anonymous
on
2010-10-12 14:22
Perhaps this was covered I haven't read all the comments but if no vows are taken by monastics save those of the Great Schema and the bishops "millions" are not anybody's business as some suggest does that cover sex also? Monasticism in America is in a deplorable state!
#52
ANON
on
2010-10-12 14:23
Please give an example of an incident displaying that His Grace Mark showed no administrative skills.
#53
Antionymous
on
2010-10-12 15:08
As a convert to Orthodoxy, I was astonished at some of MP's remarks. Concerning the attendance at the most recent PLC in Bishop Mark's diocese, I believe that many people, including several of my relatives, stayed away because of well-publicized reports of alleged threats made by one of MP's close buddies against the life of Bishop Mark, and the resultant presence at the PLC of bodyguards to protect the Bishop. Who wants to bring their kids to a mess like that??? Also, as a member of MP's own Diocese, the New England Diocese, I can tell you with certainty that the attendance at the last New England PLC was terrible by historical standards - about the same as in Bishop Mark's diocese!! So what does that say about MP??? Or does he not apply the same standard to himself as he does to Bishop Mark??
Concerning his disparaging remarks about Bishop Mark's leadership, MP should instead be looking at his own failed leadership. One needs to look no further than the Cathedral of MP's New England diocese in Worcester, MA (for which MP also serves as the Diocese Bishop). My relatives in Worcester tell me that for years there have been hard feelings in the Cathedral due in part to disagreements between the Cathedral's two priests, so much so that one of the priests left the Cathedral. There is now much animosity within the parish. A number of long-time parishioners have left the Cathedral in disgust during the past several years due to issues involving the priests. Throughout these years of problems, MP's involvement in resolving disputes between two of "his' priests has apparently been nil, as MP directed the Cathedral's parish council to try (unsuccessfully) to sort out the mess, which is still ongoing. If MP spent more time ministering to his flock in Worcester instead of plotting on how to consolidate power, he could have saved the Worcester parishioners years of hard feelings, which are getting worse, not better. Frankly, I hope MP does transfer Bishop Mark out of the Toledo Diocese - and assign him to the New England Diocese, so that we in New England, especially our brothers and sisters in Worcester, can finally have some leadership from a Bishop!!!
Finally, I have never before heard anyone say what to me appears to be an admission of massive tax evasion over many years. A stipend is salary, upon which one must pay income and payroll taxes, and upon which the employer must pay payroll taxes, whether or not the employee requests that the checks be made out to another party.Now that MP has made these remarks, the members of the Archdiocese BOD should be shaking in their boots, since they are ultimately responsible for the financial dealings of the Archdiocese.
And anyone who buys the notion that millions of dollars in the name of the Archdiocese are the personal assets of MP is a fool.
Concerning his disparaging remarks about Bishop Mark's leadership, MP should instead be looking at his own failed leadership. One needs to look no further than the Cathedral of MP's New England diocese in Worcester, MA (for which MP also serves as the Diocese Bishop). My relatives in Worcester tell me that for years there have been hard feelings in the Cathedral due in part to disagreements between the Cathedral's two priests, so much so that one of the priests left the Cathedral. There is now much animosity within the parish. A number of long-time parishioners have left the Cathedral in disgust during the past several years due to issues involving the priests. Throughout these years of problems, MP's involvement in resolving disputes between two of "his' priests has apparently been nil, as MP directed the Cathedral's parish council to try (unsuccessfully) to sort out the mess, which is still ongoing. If MP spent more time ministering to his flock in Worcester instead of plotting on how to consolidate power, he could have saved the Worcester parishioners years of hard feelings, which are getting worse, not better. Frankly, I hope MP does transfer Bishop Mark out of the Toledo Diocese - and assign him to the New England Diocese, so that we in New England, especially our brothers and sisters in Worcester, can finally have some leadership from a Bishop!!!
Finally, I have never before heard anyone say what to me appears to be an admission of massive tax evasion over many years. A stipend is salary, upon which one must pay income and payroll taxes, and upon which the employer must pay payroll taxes, whether or not the employee requests that the checks be made out to another party.Now that MP has made these remarks, the members of the Archdiocese BOD should be shaking in their boots, since they are ultimately responsible for the financial dealings of the Archdiocese.
And anyone who buys the notion that millions of dollars in the name of the Archdiocese are the personal assets of MP is a fool.
#54
A Disallusioned member of the AOCA
on
2010-10-12 15:33
http://www.antiochian.org/MetropolitanPHILIP
http://www.antiochian.org/BishopANTOUN
http://www.antiochian.org/BishopJOSEPH
http://www.antiochian.org/BishopBASIL
http://www.antiochian.org/BishopTHOMAS
http://www.antiochian.org/BishopMARK
http://www.antiochian.org/BishopALEXANDER
They all wear the monastic klobuk (epanokamelavkion) in their official portraits.
http://www.antiochian.org/BishopANTOUN
http://www.antiochian.org/BishopJOSEPH
http://www.antiochian.org/BishopBASIL
http://www.antiochian.org/BishopTHOMAS
http://www.antiochian.org/BishopMARK
http://www.antiochian.org/BishopALEXANDER
They all wear the monastic klobuk (epanokamelavkion) in their official portraits.
#55
Philip Sokolov
on
2010-10-12 16:33
So, how can one get the IRS to take notice? I've been told there are some lawyers in the archdiocese who could get this done, but they won't act because they don't want to see the archdiocese in turmoil. What can someone else do to get the IRS to notice? Turmoil is here, like it or not.
#56
A Midwest Observer
on
2010-10-12 16:45
Orthodox Accountant,
You make an interesting point and its make sense, how does this relate to his status as Corporate soul?
I alwaysd understood money you give PRiest/Bishop is their personal money and since the MEtropolitan is Corp Soul he is tax exempt? Please clarify,
(Editor's note: LOL. Corporate Soul, rather than Sole. Thanks for making my day.)
You make an interesting point and its make sense, how does this relate to his status as Corporate soul?
I alwaysd understood money you give PRiest/Bishop is their personal money and since the MEtropolitan is Corp Soul he is tax exempt? Please clarify,
(Editor's note: LOL. Corporate Soul, rather than Sole. Thanks for making my day.)
#57
Anonymous
on
2010-10-12 16:48
It is my understanding that in the Antiochian Archdiocese of North America the 'monastic veil' (epanokamelavkion; also epanokameloukion or epanokalimafko) is not reserved solely for monastics. For instance, the celibate, non-monastic Archpriest of the Antiochian parish in Fort Wayne, IN was recently made an Archimandrite by Met. Philip. The new Archimandrite is pictured wearing the monastic veil. Archimandrite seems to be understood as another honorary rank for celibate clergy above that of Archpriest.
This may be an example of loose canonical discipline in the Antiochian Archdiocese or it may be another common, non-Russian or local Antiochian practice. I'm not sure which.
I have been told that all Archimandrites in the GOA are monastics, at least nominally, so we don't seem to be talking about a 'Slavic' vs 'Greek' divide in practice. I have also been told that in Syria and Lebanon there are no Archmandrites who are not at least
technically monastics. As part of the Patriarchate's campaign against titular bishops, Archimandrite is now used most often as the title for the head ofg a monastery; it may also be possible that it is used as the title for a celibate priest who is the titular head of a moribund monastery in the process of being 'refounded'. Of course, this person could not think of a situation in Lebanon where celibate clergy were not associated with a monastery.
It could be that we are talking about a mistaken assumption that Russian or Slavic practice is normative; it could also be that while there is no 'requirement' that Bishops or Archimandrites be monastics, that they all were until quite recently, even in the ancient Patriarchates. (It wouldn't be the first time that Russian tradition represented the more venerable practice and understanding of the Church.)
This may be an example of loose canonical discipline in the Antiochian Archdiocese or it may be another common, non-Russian or local Antiochian practice. I'm not sure which.
I have been told that all Archimandrites in the GOA are monastics, at least nominally, so we don't seem to be talking about a 'Slavic' vs 'Greek' divide in practice. I have also been told that in Syria and Lebanon there are no Archmandrites who are not at least
technically monastics. As part of the Patriarchate's campaign against titular bishops, Archimandrite is now used most often as the title for the head ofg a monastery; it may also be possible that it is used as the title for a celibate priest who is the titular head of a moribund monastery in the process of being 'refounded'. Of course, this person could not think of a situation in Lebanon where celibate clergy were not associated with a monastery.
It could be that we are talking about a mistaken assumption that Russian or Slavic practice is normative; it could also be that while there is no 'requirement' that Bishops or Archimandrites be monastics, that they all were until quite recently, even in the ancient Patriarchates. (It wouldn't be the first time that Russian tradition represented the more venerable practice and understanding of the Church.)
#58
melxiopp
on
2010-10-12 18:37
Dear anon:
From IRS Pub. 525, "Income":
"Clergy
If you are a member of the clergy, you must include in your income offerings and fees you receive for marriages, baptisms, funerals, masses, etc., in addition to your salary. If the offering is made to the religious institution, it is not taxable to you."
But if you have sole control of the disbursement of funds -- no matter whose name they are in -- those funds count as taxable income to you.
From IRS Pub. 525, "Income":
"Clergy
If you are a member of the clergy, you must include in your income offerings and fees you receive for marriages, baptisms, funerals, masses, etc., in addition to your salary. If the offering is made to the religious institution, it is not taxable to you."
But if you have sole control of the disbursement of funds -- no matter whose name they are in -- those funds count as taxable income to you.
#59
A Non-AOCA Observer
on
2010-10-12 18:41
Funny, the IRS didn't do anything, took no action about the OCA when everyone was opining that they were going lose their tax exempt status or something worse, whatever that was going to be. Neither did the Nassau DA take any action when everyone was sure that indictments were going to be handed down any day! I doubt the IRS really cares about all our hand wringing directed at +Philip. Relax folks, +Philip is here to stay until the Lord takes him. Get use to it.
#60
Anonymous
on
2010-10-12 19:14
I often listen to Ancient Faith radio podcasts when I'm working out at the gym -- it's a great time to catch up on edifying podcasts when the days are busy. I listened to Kevin Allen's interview of Metropolitan Philip tonight. It was interesting and enlightening, but in all honesty, it left me more confused about the situation in the AOANA than before. (I am Orthodox but am not in the AOANA, though it is true what happens in any Orthodox jurisdiction in America affects all American Orthodox Christians, so I think that we should pay attention. In full disclosure, I grew up in the GOA but now worship in the OCA.)
Confusing issue #1:
-- Met. Philip goes to great length to clarify that he is wedded to the North American Archdiocese, that he is the bishop here, that he founded the N.A. Antiochian Archdiocese. The other bishops ("auxiliaries"? or what should they be called?) are not wedded to their dioceses then. What exactly is their role? What is their purpose? I wish that Kevin Allen had prodded him further and asked him to clarify exactly what is the role of the other Antiochian bishops in the Archdiocese. Met. Philip said that the eccesiology that he follows on how to govern his archdiocese is not Roman Catholic, but that is what it seems to be to me. Does he view the other Antiochian bishops in America as equals? From his tone in the interview, it seems not. It seems more that he views them as lieutenants. Why bother creating "dioceses" in the AOANA in the first place? It seems a complete waste of time. I am not trying to disparage Met. Philip, but this is so confusing. What is frustrating is that it seems to make sense to Met. Philip -- does he not realize that it is not clear to many Orthodox Christians?
Confusing issue #2:
-- Met. Philip goes to great length to say that he "owns nothing, not even this jacket," that everything belongs to the Archdiocese. But then he says that he is worth a million or millions. Which is it? It cannot be both. You cannot have nothing and also be worth million(s). He says that he will leave "everything he has to the Archdiocese," which is very noble, but that is not consistent with owning and having nothing. Does he maybe blur the distinction between the two -- what is his is the Archdiocese's, what is the Archdiocese's is his? That is problematic to say the least; there are way too many echoes of the OCA's financial shenanigans of the past many years in that line of thought. While he seems to be very bright and a respectable bishop in many ways, this type of thinking seems to be along the lines of "l'église, c'est moi."
Confusing issue #3:
-- He mentions that Patriarch Ignatius did not like the AOANA calling itself Autonomous, but "Self-ruled" was ok. I did not get a good idea of what the difference is between the two, and later in the intervew Met. Philip even refers to the AOANA as autonomous. What does "self-ruled" mean in every day practicality? How is the day-to-day governance of the AOANA any different than it was 10 years ago?
Please note that I am not trying to judge Met. Philip. But as the chief hierarch of a large Archdiocese in America, what he says and how he acts comes under scrutiny, as it should. And much of it does not make sense.
He concludes the interview, in referencing the old-world mother churches, by saying that "there is a gap in the mentality between the way we think, the way we work, and the way they think and the way they work." I found this amazingly ironic because that is how it seems that it is between Met. Philip and much of the Orthodox faithful in America -- there is a gap between how he thinks and operates and between how many American Orthodox think and operate, and there is much confusion. I wonder how much of it is due to cultural differences?
Met. Philip has done a lot for Orthodoxy in America during his lifetime. But this interview let me with more questions and confusion than I had before, and from the other comments that I have read, it seems that I'm not the only one.
-Gregg Gerasimon
Texas
Confusing issue #1:
-- Met. Philip goes to great length to clarify that he is wedded to the North American Archdiocese, that he is the bishop here, that he founded the N.A. Antiochian Archdiocese. The other bishops ("auxiliaries"? or what should they be called?) are not wedded to their dioceses then. What exactly is their role? What is their purpose? I wish that Kevin Allen had prodded him further and asked him to clarify exactly what is the role of the other Antiochian bishops in the Archdiocese. Met. Philip said that the eccesiology that he follows on how to govern his archdiocese is not Roman Catholic, but that is what it seems to be to me. Does he view the other Antiochian bishops in America as equals? From his tone in the interview, it seems not. It seems more that he views them as lieutenants. Why bother creating "dioceses" in the AOANA in the first place? It seems a complete waste of time. I am not trying to disparage Met. Philip, but this is so confusing. What is frustrating is that it seems to make sense to Met. Philip -- does he not realize that it is not clear to many Orthodox Christians?
Confusing issue #2:
-- Met. Philip goes to great length to say that he "owns nothing, not even this jacket," that everything belongs to the Archdiocese. But then he says that he is worth a million or millions. Which is it? It cannot be both. You cannot have nothing and also be worth million(s). He says that he will leave "everything he has to the Archdiocese," which is very noble, but that is not consistent with owning and having nothing. Does he maybe blur the distinction between the two -- what is his is the Archdiocese's, what is the Archdiocese's is his? That is problematic to say the least; there are way too many echoes of the OCA's financial shenanigans of the past many years in that line of thought. While he seems to be very bright and a respectable bishop in many ways, this type of thinking seems to be along the lines of "l'église, c'est moi."
Confusing issue #3:
-- He mentions that Patriarch Ignatius did not like the AOANA calling itself Autonomous, but "Self-ruled" was ok. I did not get a good idea of what the difference is between the two, and later in the intervew Met. Philip even refers to the AOANA as autonomous. What does "self-ruled" mean in every day practicality? How is the day-to-day governance of the AOANA any different than it was 10 years ago?
Please note that I am not trying to judge Met. Philip. But as the chief hierarch of a large Archdiocese in America, what he says and how he acts comes under scrutiny, as it should. And much of it does not make sense.
He concludes the interview, in referencing the old-world mother churches, by saying that "there is a gap in the mentality between the way we think, the way we work, and the way they think and the way they work." I found this amazingly ironic because that is how it seems that it is between Met. Philip and much of the Orthodox faithful in America -- there is a gap between how he thinks and operates and between how many American Orthodox think and operate, and there is much confusion. I wonder how much of it is due to cultural differences?
Met. Philip has done a lot for Orthodoxy in America during his lifetime. But this interview let me with more questions and confusion than I had before, and from the other comments that I have read, it seems that I'm not the only one.
-Gregg Gerasimon
Texas
#61
Gregg Gerasimon
on
2010-10-12 19:37
That is a good response. I know we both care. I will check the website out.thx
#62
Happy
on
2010-10-12 19:42
Comment deleted at request of poster.
#63
Anonymous
on
2010-10-12 21:47
Bishop Antoun in my presence claimed to be a monk.
#64
Anonymous
on
2010-10-13 00:43
Met. Philip exemplifies what an Orthodox bishop should look like in America. Well-shaven, no pony tails or beards, dress as a business man, well-educated and a very good administrator. All these "play monk bishops" are ridiculous! + Philip is the kind of bishop I'd wish to serve under, not some dress-up, play 18th century bishop from the old country. GOD BLESS MET. PHILIP - MANY YEARS!!!
#65
Anonymous
on
2010-10-13 06:32
Mark, why didn't my reply with detail get posted? thanks. Please explain if possible.
(Editor's note: Have no idea which reply you are referring to. Please resend.)
(Editor's note: Have no idea which reply you are referring to. Please resend.)
#66
Happy to Mark
on
2010-10-13 07:42
If you converted to Orthodoxy because it is the True Faith of Body of Christ - The Church, then why are you disallusioned? We are all sinful, we all fall short of the glory of God. It does not excuse the sin but the Church militant is NOT perfect. The Church Triumphant is!
"Put not your trust in princes and in sons of man, in whom there is no salvation."
+Philip is a distraction in that he is a big temptation to become disallusioned but if we are by him, that is not his fault, it is our fault for giving into the temptation. Pray for him and let us pray for each other. I mean, really pray!!!
"Put not your trust in princes and in sons of man, in whom there is no salvation."
+Philip is a distraction in that he is a big temptation to become disallusioned but if we are by him, that is not his fault, it is our fault for giving into the temptation. Pray for him and let us pray for each other. I mean, really pray!!!
#67
Anonymous
on
2010-10-13 08:08
"Philip is the kind of bishop I'd wish to serve under..."
The church ain't the Army.
Unless you're a cleric, anonymous, you do not serve under any bishop.
And stop hating on beards and ponytails.
I rather doubt that St.John the Forerunnner looked much like a businessman, even a 1st Century AD businessman, yet somehow he called a lot of people to repentance.
The church ain't the Army.
Unless you're a cleric, anonymous, you do not serve under any bishop.
And stop hating on beards and ponytails.
I rather doubt that St.John the Forerunnner looked much like a businessman, even a 1st Century AD businessman, yet somehow he called a lot of people to repentance.
#68
Anonymous
on
2010-10-13 09:05
Good point concerning the OCA and IRS. Still, I was told that supposedly, the archdiocese has lawyers with better IRS contacts who "could" get the IRS all over this if they wanted. I don't know if that's true, but if it is, it is too bad the lawyers won't do this.
With respect to how long Metropolitan Philip is with us, I thought the good met said he would decided when he dies. I don't think he plans on giving the Lord a say in it at all.
With respect to how long Metropolitan Philip is with us, I thought the good met said he would decided when he dies. I don't think he plans on giving the Lord a say in it at all.
#69
A Midwest Observer
on
2010-10-13 10:11
This interview makes evident the spectre of intermingled personal and corporate funds in the person of +MP. The OCA may have nothing on us when it comes to scandals. He says an independent audit costs too much. BS.
Regarding the cost, if someone with means would bless us to donate $150,000 for an independent auditor for Englewood's books. To deny cooperation, then, would then reveal a concealing motive. We need to know if we need to submit to a cleansing process like the OCA. If there is nothing to hide there is no reason to block light from revealing the true state of our finances.
Call the bluff.
Regarding the cost, if someone with means would bless us to donate $150,000 for an independent auditor for Englewood's books. To deny cooperation, then, would then reveal a concealing motive. We need to know if we need to submit to a cleansing process like the OCA. If there is nothing to hide there is no reason to block light from revealing the true state of our finances.
Call the bluff.
#70
MichaelPatrick
on
2010-10-13 10:28
Gregg,
You don't sound "confused" at all. Thank you for seeing how what goes on in our jurisdiction affects the entire Church. We are one. So many forget that. Please sign the petition. It's for all Orthodox.
Gail
http://www.PetitionOnline.com/Audit/petition.html
You don't sound "confused" at all. Thank you for seeing how what goes on in our jurisdiction affects the entire Church. We are one. So many forget that. Please sign the petition. It's for all Orthodox.
Gail
http://www.PetitionOnline.com/Audit/petition.html
#71
Gail Sheppard
on
2010-10-13 11:23
The Metropolitan is a 21st century Byzantine who thinks that twisted logic and outright lies suffice for explanations for his outrageous behavior. His treatment of Bishop Mark is unspeakable, but this is what we must expect from a Dictator, or Glorious Leader to whom we must pay complete obedience. I promised myself that I would not be sucked into paying attention to his despicable actions, and after I vent on this response, I simply resign myself to the situation and keep my thoughts on my local parish and ignore what has happened. If I seem bitter, it is because I AM bitter. God forgive me.
#72
disgusted
on
2010-10-13 11:34
The one for Antionymous. That was like a page long. I'll try to re-write it.
#73
Happy to Mark
on
2010-10-13 11:40
His Eminence seem's oblivious to the ongoing harm he does to his own reputation and legacy every time he feels compelled to speak or justify his recent machavilian conduct. I do not know if that is a result of episcopal hubris gone off the deep end or age impairing his thinking?
This much is evident. His admitting personal enrichment as a result of his position, perhaps several million dollars worth does not elevate his status in the eye's of anyone remotely familiar with the teaching of the Church's true shepherd. Even hirelings are not so bold in their nefarious endeavors.
To then say even a sham like the proposed internal audit being proposed can't look his way is merely adding outrage to outrage.
Anytime our Metropolitan speaks we are reminded of the need to put an end to the episcopal abuse of power.
This much is evident. His admitting personal enrichment as a result of his position, perhaps several million dollars worth does not elevate his status in the eye's of anyone remotely familiar with the teaching of the Church's true shepherd. Even hirelings are not so bold in their nefarious endeavors.
To then say even a sham like the proposed internal audit being proposed can't look his way is merely adding outrage to outrage.
Anytime our Metropolitan speaks we are reminded of the need to put an end to the episcopal abuse of power.
#74
Kevin Kirwan
on
2010-10-13 12:00
Good points anonymous and there is quite a bit of truth in what you wrote. However, I wouldn't say that all of the issues are completely without risk. Regarding the IRS stepping in and the OCA losing their tax exempt status: the OCA did meet with the IRS and did put in place a legitimate plan to deal with it issues. They terminated all of the culprits, the brought in a CPA, the implemented internal controls, and the changed outside auditors. And the AOCA has done what? Oh yes, the now have some internal auditors. Sorry, it's not the same.
With regard to the Nassau DA, I believe that these were potential charges against Kondratick. I can't say, I wasn't there but the issues on the surface don't appear to be the same. Kondratick was accused of deliberately taking money designated for certain funds and putting the money into his own pocket. Because of the incredibly poor record keeping, it's possible that Kondratick actually did distribute some of the funds exactly has he said he did. If I was the Nassau County DA, I might have passed on the case as well. Again, let's compare this to the +Phillip situation. He has clearly accepted a lot of money as gifts, honorariums, etc. every time he has gone to an official church function. It's anyone's guess though whether the IRS will take a look at his personal finances.
With regard to the Nassau DA, I believe that these were potential charges against Kondratick. I can't say, I wasn't there but the issues on the surface don't appear to be the same. Kondratick was accused of deliberately taking money designated for certain funds and putting the money into his own pocket. Because of the incredibly poor record keeping, it's possible that Kondratick actually did distribute some of the funds exactly has he said he did. If I was the Nassau County DA, I might have passed on the case as well. Again, let's compare this to the +Phillip situation. He has clearly accepted a lot of money as gifts, honorariums, etc. every time he has gone to an official church function. It's anyone's guess though whether the IRS will take a look at his personal finances.
#75
Anon.
on
2010-10-13 13:44
On the topic of financial accountability, does anyone here know where to find the Antiochian Food for Hungry People program's comprehensive report of its income, expense, and distributions?
#76
MWP
on
2010-10-13 15:28
Philip seems to be speaking openly and honestly can't understand why anyone would think he wasn't honest. He is completely convinced he's right. He is so far removed from the Church he can't imagine anyone not admiring anything he does. If Philip fell down in the forest he wouldn't make a sound. There's no one to hear it.
#77
Bob Koch
on
2010-10-13 22:19
May God the Lord Continue to Grant His Eminence Many More Years of service to this archdiocese. his analysis is right on. its too bad many of you that post on this site dont understand or care to know of what the metropolitan says. the kevin kirwan's and gail shepards and mark stokoes only serve to bring division and point fingers. it really is too bad.
#78
Anonymous
on
2010-10-14 04:39
The more I read +Philip’s comments, the more incensed (no pun) I become.
The superciliousness of this despot is beyond the actions of a rational person. Not only does he openly air his ecclesiologically perverted thoughts but he does so with delusional belief that educated hierarchs, priests, deacons and laity are going to buy his drivel. But truth be told, +Philip doesn’t care what most people think, only his cohorts, ethnic purists and the misled millionaires who think they are buying their way into the kingdom of heaven by doing as +Philip says.
To publicly attack Bishop Mark is unprecedented even in some of the most heated disputes in the history of Orthodoxy in America. To distort +Mark’s record is more becoming a politician trying to hold on to his position than an elder bishop showing respect for a younger brother. Oh yeah, he doesn’t believe that the other “men in mitres” are his equal, just his sub-bishops. To blame +Mark for corruption in his diocese is the proverbial pot calling the kettle black. If the major archdiocesan scandals over the years over were enumerated, some perpetrated by close +Philip allies, it would be easy to conclude that he was either incompetent and or corrupt.
To do what +Philip has done, i.e. destroy his reputation along with the world-wide credibility of the Antiochian partriarchal synod, all but confirms there is much to hide. The motives behind their indefensible despicable actions must be acts of desperation to hide some insidious deeds. Absolute power corrupts absolutely and have no doubt that “the love of money is the root of all evil.”
The superciliousness of this despot is beyond the actions of a rational person. Not only does he openly air his ecclesiologically perverted thoughts but he does so with delusional belief that educated hierarchs, priests, deacons and laity are going to buy his drivel. But truth be told, +Philip doesn’t care what most people think, only his cohorts, ethnic purists and the misled millionaires who think they are buying their way into the kingdom of heaven by doing as +Philip says.
To publicly attack Bishop Mark is unprecedented even in some of the most heated disputes in the history of Orthodoxy in America. To distort +Mark’s record is more becoming a politician trying to hold on to his position than an elder bishop showing respect for a younger brother. Oh yeah, he doesn’t believe that the other “men in mitres” are his equal, just his sub-bishops. To blame +Mark for corruption in his diocese is the proverbial pot calling the kettle black. If the major archdiocesan scandals over the years over were enumerated, some perpetrated by close +Philip allies, it would be easy to conclude that he was either incompetent and or corrupt.
To do what +Philip has done, i.e. destroy his reputation along with the world-wide credibility of the Antiochian partriarchal synod, all but confirms there is much to hide. The motives behind their indefensible despicable actions must be acts of desperation to hide some insidious deeds. Absolute power corrupts absolutely and have no doubt that “the love of money is the root of all evil.”
#79
A thoroughly repulsed believer
on
2010-10-14 04:53
I just finished reading the interview last night. I didn't listen to it, but I didn't have to, nor did I want to hear his voice. The actual text of the interview said it all. Did you see the photo of MP on the Archdiocese Website next to the article of the interview? This man has no joy in his eyes or on his face. He looks absolutely miserable and downright mean, and yet, he continues to attack his FLOCK. I'll never figure it out. Anyone in Orthodoxy or any faith who has no joy in their ministry, be it clergy or laity, will never really embrace that faith and the love of God. Our faith is not meant to be stern, hard hearted and miserable. It is with faith, joy, love and peace that we follow God and only Him.
I want to thank Kevin Allen for this incredible interview. You asked very crucial questions, things we all want to hear about, and you did a fine job. I also liked some of your replies to his responses. My only concern was that you were walking on eggshells with him thru most of the interview. You were very strong to go there, but it seems MP knows how to intimidate everyone. You were very patient - more so than I would have been.
Quite frankly, I don't think MP should have done this interview. He once again showed his true colors in some of his answers, insisting that things will be a certain way, and many of the things he said, we all know were just said to pacify us. He always says one thing and does another, so his answers cannot be trusted under any circumstances.
Look at most of the postings on this interview. A few supporters of MP, but the majority saw right thru him and continue to distrust him and call for his retirement. And folks, this has nothing to do with his age. He is 80, very sharp, and knows exactly what he is doing, the same things he's been doing for many years. The only difference is that these events are being reported now so that everyone knows what he is up to. He pacifies us so we'll stop bothering him, which we don't, and then the minute we think things are quieting down, he strikes again. How many times will we get close to a snake, let him bite us again and again, before we get away from the snake and put distance between us?
I want to thank Kevin Allen for this incredible interview. You asked very crucial questions, things we all want to hear about, and you did a fine job. I also liked some of your replies to his responses. My only concern was that you were walking on eggshells with him thru most of the interview. You were very strong to go there, but it seems MP knows how to intimidate everyone. You were very patient - more so than I would have been.
Quite frankly, I don't think MP should have done this interview. He once again showed his true colors in some of his answers, insisting that things will be a certain way, and many of the things he said, we all know were just said to pacify us. He always says one thing and does another, so his answers cannot be trusted under any circumstances.
Look at most of the postings on this interview. A few supporters of MP, but the majority saw right thru him and continue to distrust him and call for his retirement. And folks, this has nothing to do with his age. He is 80, very sharp, and knows exactly what he is doing, the same things he's been doing for many years. The only difference is that these events are being reported now so that everyone knows what he is up to. He pacifies us so we'll stop bothering him, which we don't, and then the minute we think things are quieting down, he strikes again. How many times will we get close to a snake, let him bite us again and again, before we get away from the snake and put distance between us?
Dear "Anonymous"
You understand monastic life LITTLE and the spiritual life even LESS! EVERYONE needs an IDEAL to live out their Orthodox Christian vocation...whether married layman or deacon or priest or bishop. The ideal for the bishop is complete union with Christ through the ascetical ideal of monastic life...which calls the bishop to complete renunciation of the world and to cling to Christ, the Bridegroom of the Church COMPLETELY, renouncing all others! Your metropolitan seems to be the exact opposite...clinging to the WORLD as a 'Christian (and I use this word loosely!) businessman'...who, with ego uncontrolled, runs roughstod over everyone in his way: bishops, priests, deacons and laity. You get just what you deserve---so enjoy the out-of-control ego of a 78 year old worldly Arab. Because you ARE worldly, your metropoiltan must be the 'PERFECT' fit for you and your life. I just wonder how you are ever going to recognize Christ at the end of your time here on earth...having never met Him in your life?!
I shall pray for you.
You understand monastic life LITTLE and the spiritual life even LESS! EVERYONE needs an IDEAL to live out their Orthodox Christian vocation...whether married layman or deacon or priest or bishop. The ideal for the bishop is complete union with Christ through the ascetical ideal of monastic life...which calls the bishop to complete renunciation of the world and to cling to Christ, the Bridegroom of the Church COMPLETELY, renouncing all others! Your metropolitan seems to be the exact opposite...clinging to the WORLD as a 'Christian (and I use this word loosely!) businessman'...who, with ego uncontrolled, runs roughstod over everyone in his way: bishops, priests, deacons and laity. You get just what you deserve---so enjoy the out-of-control ego of a 78 year old worldly Arab. Because you ARE worldly, your metropoiltan must be the 'PERFECT' fit for you and your life. I just wonder how you are ever going to recognize Christ at the end of your time here on earth...having never met Him in your life?!
I shall pray for you.
#81
Archimandrite
on
2010-10-14 07:27
Ck this out:
http://www.antiochian.org/node/24040
Bp. Mark cannot even consecrate temples in his own diocese!
http://www.antiochian.org/node/24040
Bp. Mark cannot even consecrate temples in his own diocese!
#82
Antionymous
on
2010-10-14 07:32
This is an update to my previous posting (posting 30) above.
In my previous posting I mentioned that one of the two Priests at the AOCA Cathedral in Worcester, MA, the Cathedral of the New England Diocese of which MP is the Diocese Bishop, left amid much controversy within the Cathedral. It now seems that the remaining priest has disappeared from the Cathedral and no one in the parish seems to know why. So now, MP's Cathedral in Worcester has no priests !!!! Don't believe me, simply look up the Cathedral's website, and you will see that no priests are listed !! The web address for the Cathedral is www.StGeorgeWorcester.org. The level of turmoil and acrimony within the Cathedral continues to build while MP sits in Englewood counting his millions of dollars (which actually aren't his according to his own statements) and consolidating his power..... What a disgrace!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
In my previous posting I mentioned that one of the two Priests at the AOCA Cathedral in Worcester, MA, the Cathedral of the New England Diocese of which MP is the Diocese Bishop, left amid much controversy within the Cathedral. It now seems that the remaining priest has disappeared from the Cathedral and no one in the parish seems to know why. So now, MP's Cathedral in Worcester has no priests !!!! Don't believe me, simply look up the Cathedral's website, and you will see that no priests are listed !! The web address for the Cathedral is www.StGeorgeWorcester.org. The level of turmoil and acrimony within the Cathedral continues to build while MP sits in Englewood counting his millions of dollars (which actually aren't his according to his own statements) and consolidating his power..... What a disgrace!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
#83
A Disallusioned Member of the AOCA
on
2010-10-14 08:20
Doesn't seem which Arch Diocese you pick ,the Bishops seem to have the same sense of ENTITLEMENT , much like rock stars , athletes & politicians.
So I concentrate on the New Testament , the words of my Savior as they BEAR FRUIT... and leave these kinds of people to his judgement
So I concentrate on the New Testament , the words of my Savior as they BEAR FRUIT... and leave these kinds of people to his judgement
#84
sad bob
on
2010-10-14 09:13
I'm a convert too, and have to admit to a lot of disillusionment as well. I've worked in many corrupt environments: private, corporate, and government, and I have never seen such a majority of scoundrels as I've seen in the OCA and Antiochian Churches.
It's easy to just brush it off and say "well, everybody sins", but a brief look at Orthodox history shows that the laity reacts to and does not accept the sins and power grabs of it's hierarchical clergy forever.
This website is a prime example of the laity pushing back and bringing these sins to light. Could you imagine how much worse it would be without the work of Mr. Stokoe?
(Editor's note: Thanks, but I only report the news: I don't create it, or the situations that engender it. The "work" you mention, bringing things to light, is not done by me, but by scores of people, each switching on their flashlight in the dark, until things become illumined. Only after they are illumined can I take a picture and show it to the world. It is to those switching on their individual light that thanks are really due....)
It's easy to just brush it off and say "well, everybody sins", but a brief look at Orthodox history shows that the laity reacts to and does not accept the sins and power grabs of it's hierarchical clergy forever.
This website is a prime example of the laity pushing back and bringing these sins to light. Could you imagine how much worse it would be without the work of Mr. Stokoe?
(Editor's note: Thanks, but I only report the news: I don't create it, or the situations that engender it. The "work" you mention, bringing things to light, is not done by me, but by scores of people, each switching on their flashlight in the dark, until things become illumined. Only after they are illumined can I take a picture and show it to the world. It is to those switching on their individual light that thanks are really due....)
#85
Stu
on
2010-10-14 09:59
Oh how wrong you are! The Church "IS" the Army of God. We are the People of God. The Bishops are our Generals and the Priests are our Captains. The Priests serve at the leisure of their Bishop.
As far as beards and pony tails are concerned, they have no place in Western society today - maybe in the 1800's - 1920's, but not now. Neither are cassocks worn in public as a normal garb. It's just stupid & backward! Hey, but most of those looking like that ARE backward. Keeping the American Church in 1800...
As far as beards and pony tails are concerned, they have no place in Western society today - maybe in the 1800's - 1920's, but not now. Neither are cassocks worn in public as a normal garb. It's just stupid & backward! Hey, but most of those looking like that ARE backward. Keeping the American Church in 1800...
#86
Anonymous
on
2010-10-14 10:59
do you think we actually care what you losers have to say? the only reason why you see few posts in support of the metropolitan is because the many supporters dont care to come onto this garbage website. this website is for you trashy people that serve nothing but to trash the metropolitan. you may ask why am i on? i come on for simple amusement! I laugh at your nonsense! I laugh at your misery! you people are nothing but a joke...go join another jurisdiction LOSERS!!!
#87
Anonymous
on
2010-10-14 12:46
You have it wrong! Where does it say in Canon Law that all bishops MUST be monastics? IT DOESN'T! Which Apostles took an oath of celibacy and refused their own wives? NONE! (11 of the 12 Apostles were married) You have a skewed view of what an Orthodox bishop is and it's no wonder since the ultra-conservatives wish to promote this SKEWED idea. In the early church, most bishops were married, just very good men above reproach. Bishops were chosen from the monasteries because 1) that's where the libraries were (educated clerics) and 2) according to the laws, there were no progeny to inherit church property & funds. IT WAS PRACTICAL TO HAVE A MONK; not that they were any holier! We need to return to the Orthodox view of what a "BISHOP" is, not these skewed ideas that he is some holier than thou monk. We should go back to married bishops and good administrators!
#88
Anonymous
on
2010-10-14 13:44
Father Oliver Herbel wrote me the other day, saying he'd be posting and linking to the the on-line petition. He also said something that gave me pause: "The trick is to get signatures. Not getting many means it backfires." This is true, my friends.
We need signatures and not just from people within our Archdiocese. We are ONE Church, are we not? We need to send the message that we (all of us) expect to be able to financially support our Church, knowing that our money is being properly managed, regardless of which jurisdiction we belong to. Yes, a certain portion of what we give should go into a discretionary fund to help those in need "in secret." This is important, but at the same time, we should be able to pass an external audit without difficulty. We shouldn't have to lose sleep wondering whether or not our funds have been misappropriated, especially in an organization the size of the AOCANA.
Again, ALL Orthodox Christians should support our efforts to bring about this audit since it is our collective hope that our houses will one day be united. Even those of you who support Metropolitan Philip should have no problem signing this petition since you undoubtedly believe that Metropolitan Philip has nothing to fear from the exposure.
I'm guessing that only those of you who know there are improprieties and fear retribution from Metropolitan Philip would shy away from signing this petition. If this description fits you, I would encourage you to search your hearts and ask yourselves if God would want you to abdicate your responsibility to manage the "talents" He entrusted to you out of fear. It is God you should fear. Put His house in order and have the faith that He will protect you for doing the right thing. Fear and faith are mutually exclusive, unless applied to God. If you fear Metropolitan Philip, your faith in God is lacking.
Please sign the petition:
http://www.PetitionOnline.com/Audit/petition.html
We need signatures and not just from people within our Archdiocese. We are ONE Church, are we not? We need to send the message that we (all of us) expect to be able to financially support our Church, knowing that our money is being properly managed, regardless of which jurisdiction we belong to. Yes, a certain portion of what we give should go into a discretionary fund to help those in need "in secret." This is important, but at the same time, we should be able to pass an external audit without difficulty. We shouldn't have to lose sleep wondering whether or not our funds have been misappropriated, especially in an organization the size of the AOCANA.
Again, ALL Orthodox Christians should support our efforts to bring about this audit since it is our collective hope that our houses will one day be united. Even those of you who support Metropolitan Philip should have no problem signing this petition since you undoubtedly believe that Metropolitan Philip has nothing to fear from the exposure.
I'm guessing that only those of you who know there are improprieties and fear retribution from Metropolitan Philip would shy away from signing this petition. If this description fits you, I would encourage you to search your hearts and ask yourselves if God would want you to abdicate your responsibility to manage the "talents" He entrusted to you out of fear. It is God you should fear. Put His house in order and have the faith that He will protect you for doing the right thing. Fear and faith are mutually exclusive, unless applied to God. If you fear Metropolitan Philip, your faith in God is lacking.
Please sign the petition:
http://www.PetitionOnline.com/Audit/petition.html
#89
Gail Sheppard
on
2010-10-14 13:58
Interesting comments.
I think this is amatter between the Priest and their Bishop, Personally I could ccare less if a Priest ahve a beard or ponytail or where is cassack everywhere he goes. I do a gree this is not common for 21st century american dress but t is a personal issue betwen the priest and his hierarch who he must be obedient too.
I think this is amatter between the Priest and their Bishop, Personally I could ccare less if a Priest ahve a beard or ponytail or where is cassack everywhere he goes. I do a gree this is not common for 21st century american dress but t is a personal issue betwen the priest and his hierarch who he must be obedient too.
#90
Michael C. Srour
on
2010-10-14 14:10
The problem with these on-line petitions is that anyone can enter 1000 people. The OCA petition to remove + Herman had my name on it yet, I had nothing to do with it. Then, I couldn't remove my name!
#91
Anonymous
on
2010-10-14 17:01
For a bishop there exists the obligation of celibacy. In the first centuries of the Church such a demand was not obligatory, but even in apostolic times it was allowed for bishops to avoid marriage for the sake of the ascetic struggle of continence. This custom became strengthened and the Sixth Ecumenical Council made it a canon. There is no reason why married priests cannot run a diocese and be the administrator of the diocese...this is in fact the custom in many Orthodox countries (Belarus for example). The bishop does NOT have to be the administrator---the grace of Holy Orders that a bishop receives is to TEACH and PREACH the Gospel, to ordain and to consecrate, to be a FATHER to his priests and deacons, and to be the principal priest in the diocese by example of holiness and wisdom. I've been a monk now for over 45 years and a priest for 30...and I've seen many married priests who would be good 'chancellors' or 'administrators'...but also many who would NOT. I'm thinking of how the last chancellor of the OCA would have functioned as a married bishop. Is that what you want??? Bishop Krondratick? Don't you realize that the Church never does anything without a good solid reason...and it was for such reasons that we decided no longer to consecrate married men to the Office of Bishop.
You remain in my prayers.
You remain in my prayers.
#92
Archimandirte
on
2010-10-14 17:48
Save a copy on your computer in case its gets lost again. It happpens to me all the time, work so hard on a response and "poof" its gone.....
#93
Antionymous
on
2010-10-14 17:50
I agree 100% with you
#94
Anonymous
on
2010-10-14 19:34
With all respect, the priest took a leave of absence for personal reason, may you can show him some respect and privacy whatever reason he left is between hima nd His MEtropolitan, not the entire world to gossip about it!
#95
Anonymous
on
2010-10-14 19:38
How can anyone in the world read all of this and even for an instant believe that the Vhurch in North America is ready to be autocepahalous? What we have here is a zoo made up of some docile creatures, some faithful creatures and a lot or predators! Just creating an Episcopal Assembly or revitalizing SCOBA will amount to exactly what has taken place for the last 30 years. Absolutely nothing! Don't you guys get it? The whole issue for the overseas Patriachiates subservient to Constantinope is money! The EP doesn't have any. Antioch doesn't have any. Alexandria doesn't have any. And Moscow doesn't need outside cash. But everyone else needs the money from the rest of the world just to survive. They are not going to give up the cash cow anytime soon without a lot of deals under the table that the faithful will never know about. Can you imagine the modern ecclestiology and practice of the EP, MP, Antioch, OCA, and the smaller bodies ever being able to work out any kind of canonical compromise on practice in America? So far, the only plan on the table is for everyone but the EP to surrender all perogatives and enter into some sort of solution brokered by the EP, under the EP and certainly benefitting the EP. It really is a case of my way of the highway. Metropolitan Philip's remarks underscore these differences more clearly than I have ever seen spoken or in print. Not to deviate into an ad hominum arguement or an arguement using proof text, but Scripture promises that in the last days the spiritual wolves will dress as sheep and lead many astray. In the responses printed above, we see talk about money, canons, I like this, I like that, etc. ad naseum...but in my humble opinion the point is being missed entirely. None of these shannigans have any place in Orthodoxy! While we can argue til we are blue in the face about bishops, monasticsm etc. the real issue is that this country does not seem not spiritually mature enough to create an authentic Orthodox culture in which a united Church could thrive. I weep for the situation here! I know what I am about to say is about as far from Orthodoxy as one can get, but I tell you, if unity is to take place in this country, it will not come from the top down. It will come from the bottom up. It won't be the bishops sitting in a hall deciding what bishops they do and don't want to play with and who they want relegated to the sidelines, it will eventually come from simple, believing, humble Orthodox Christians saying "Enough is enough" and uniting parish by parish (if not in fact then in spirit) until common ground is reached on the basis of the one thing we do have, a common Faith. Not language. Not ethinicity. Just Faith! If the world once groaned finding itself Arian, then it must be crying out in agony finding itself separated and broken apart as it is today. Perhaps we need an association of Orthodox Christians who agree in principal on what needs to be done until shear numbers can be a valid balance to the nonsense that is happening now. O God, Save Thy people and bless Thy Dominion!
#96
George Osborne
on
2010-10-14 22:10
thats right...the online petitions are not accurate and are very bias. it is a lot like the comments in this thread... i am sure it is the same people who post hundreds of comments in order to make it look like the "masses" are in disagreement. nobody has the courage to sign their own name. just look at the name i am using now.
(Editor's note: While I do not control how people sign their names, including the false one you state you are using, it is not the case that there are single posters posting the same comments under different names. I see all the IP's, friends.)
(Editor's note: While I do not control how people sign their names, including the false one you state you are using, it is not the case that there are single posters posting the same comments under different names. I see all the IP's, friends.)
#97
Anonymous Antiochian Priest
on
2010-10-15 04:02
What a cheap shot regarding RSK. A thief, is a thief is a thief no matter married or celibate. There have been many bishops who robbed their people blind. So, tell us, exactly WHY is it necessary that a monk or celibate only be a bishop - are sexual relations with a wife "dirty?" Does sex somehow lessen the Grace of the Holy Spirit? What exactly is it? It is nothing more than PRACTICAL. Nepotism and the inheritance of church properties & money. There is NO reason why we shouldn't return to married bishops - men with NORMAL desires and a sense stability mentally!
#98
Anonymous
on
2010-10-15 06:10
.... The Word certainly has filled the journalistic vacuum left vacant by the old Soviet newspaper Pravda.
The pictorial celebration of +Philip’s triumphal return to Damascus is akin to saluting the glory of the Saint Valentine’s Day Massacre. Once again images of +Philip outnumber, by a landslide, sacred images of Christ. It’s too bad the Orthodox Church doesn’t support cloning or we could have generations of +Philips to insure perpetuation of his incomparable execution of truth, justice and the reformed- Antiochian way.
The pictorial celebration of +Philip’s triumphal return to Damascus is akin to saluting the glory of the Saint Valentine’s Day Massacre. Once again images of +Philip outnumber, by a landslide, sacred images of Christ. It’s too bad the Orthodox Church doesn’t support cloning or we could have generations of +Philips to insure perpetuation of his incomparable execution of truth, justice and the reformed- Antiochian way.
#99
Antiochian
on
2010-10-15 07:19
thank you sayidna philip. we are hopeful you will rid our archdiocese from these people that have tried to besmirch your name.
#100
Anonymous
on
2010-10-15 08:56
Interesting that YOU come onto this website ... and ... at least some of us will indicate our names. But it's okay, because the joy of Orthodoxy in this culture is that we are all free to say what we want and feel. We care about both you and your opinion. No one is silenced. They freedom we have in America is that intelligent people can disagree and still be friends (and they don't even have to call each other names) ... So thank you for your opinion. God be with you!
#101
Sean O'Clare
on
2010-10-15 08:59
Gail,
I've signed the petition. I have kept up marginally with all the goings-on, especially since it seems to involve my bishop, +MARK, a man I deeply respect.
I have no reason to doubt His Eminence, +PHILIP, either, as I've stated elsewhere. He has been good to us in our new Mission.
However, in this case, as with any case of possible problems within a large communion, the risk of not keeping one's house in order outweigh the benefits of skirting the problem.
St. Paul seems to believe that Christians out to be above reproach, especially in the eyes of the world. If this is a wise accounting procedure for any large group, it is my belief we must be equally or more wise, especially considering the questions raised and the potential scandal that could harm the cause of the Gospel.
I pray that all this ends peacefully, for all of our hierarchs.
I've signed the petition. I have kept up marginally with all the goings-on, especially since it seems to involve my bishop, +MARK, a man I deeply respect.
I have no reason to doubt His Eminence, +PHILIP, either, as I've stated elsewhere. He has been good to us in our new Mission.
However, in this case, as with any case of possible problems within a large communion, the risk of not keeping one's house in order outweigh the benefits of skirting the problem.
St. Paul seems to believe that Christians out to be above reproach, especially in the eyes of the world. If this is a wise accounting procedure for any large group, it is my belief we must be equally or more wise, especially considering the questions raised and the potential scandal that could harm the cause of the Gospel.
I pray that all this ends peacefully, for all of our hierarchs.
#102
Dr. Kevin Burt
on
2010-10-15 10:06
How about Gail or an attorney writing a letter of explantion as to the importance of an external audit being done for our Archdiocese? I suggest posting it here
This is something that can be copied and given to the faithful who may still be in the dark about our odd and unaccountable financial setup in Englewood.
This is something that can be copied and given to the faithful who may still be in the dark about our odd and unaccountable financial setup in Englewood.
#103
Kevin Kirwan
on
2010-10-15 13:06
"If you entrust the bishop with your soul, you don’t trust him to have his own money and give it to the archdiocese in the future? This is ridiculous." Met. Philip
This is very troubling indeed. Are there folks in this Archdiocese who have ..gulp.. entrusted their souls to His Eminence? I've heard of deals like this, but wow..that's kind of spooky.
I guess for the rest of us who haven't made that bargain we would still like to see how several million dollars found it's way to His Eminence and want to make sure that it does find it's way back to where it belongs.
It's not that we have any reason to mistrust. Ah who am I kidding? We might have had some recent events that helped shaped a certain apprehension regarding the credibility of our Heirarchial Superior.
Let's get this cleared up and have an Independent External Audit..and no that does not mean we use Walid Khalife's personal accountant and money manager.
This is very troubling indeed. Are there folks in this Archdiocese who have ..gulp.. entrusted their souls to His Eminence? I've heard of deals like this, but wow..that's kind of spooky.
I guess for the rest of us who haven't made that bargain we would still like to see how several million dollars found it's way to His Eminence and want to make sure that it does find it's way back to where it belongs.
It's not that we have any reason to mistrust. Ah who am I kidding? We might have had some recent events that helped shaped a certain apprehension regarding the credibility of our Heirarchial Superior.
Let's get this cleared up and have an Independent External Audit..and no that does not mean we use Walid Khalife's personal accountant and money manager.
#104
Kevin Kirwan
on
2010-10-15 15:14
It is, of course, possible that Met. +Philip has no undeclared income from an IRS perspective, and not outstanding tax liability. He has advanced the theory that he is a corporate sole, that is, his person is juridically identical with his office. If this theory held up in tax court, he would have not have any income or tax liability, but it would also mean that his assertion that any money is his as distinct from belonging to the Archdiocese is a lie.
Either the IRS should be looking very closely at His Eminence, or come time for an audit, every dime of "his" money is subject to the audit because his tax-evasion theory only works if "his" money is the Archdiocese's money.
Either the IRS should be looking very closely at His Eminence, or come time for an audit, every dime of "his" money is subject to the audit because his tax-evasion theory only works if "his" money is the Archdiocese's money.
Dear LOSER-hater,
Jesus came to save the LOSERS.
Jesus came to love them/us all.
Whom do you love?
Jesus came to save the LOSERS.
Jesus came to love them/us all.
Whom do you love?
#106
Anon.
on
2010-10-15 21:02
>>"As far as beards and pony tails are concerned, they have no place in Western society today..."
Fascinating -- coming from who? Who is deciding these things? I live in California -- and you can't get much further west than that -- and I see and work with lots of professional people who have long hair and beards.
I think no one who is living back in the 1950s has any place in Western society today...
(Editor's note: And I think one of the great virtues of Western Society is that bothvpeople who choose beards and people who choose to continue to live in the 1950's have a place in Western Society. That is one of it's strengths. And one we should learn from in the Orthodox Church, if we intend to enculturate into it. )
Fascinating -- coming from who? Who is deciding these things? I live in California -- and you can't get much further west than that -- and I see and work with lots of professional people who have long hair and beards.
I think no one who is living back in the 1950s has any place in Western society today...
(Editor's note: And I think one of the great virtues of Western Society is that bothvpeople who choose beards and people who choose to continue to live in the 1950's have a place in Western Society. That is one of it's strengths. And one we should learn from in the Orthodox Church, if we intend to enculturate into it. )
#107
Curiouser
on
2010-10-16 01:18
Dear Gail
Your Petition have no Creditibility since some sign MEtropolitan George of Mt. LEbanon Name, who is not in the middle east this week but at a Conference in Rome, and they mis-spelled his name, he spells it the English version not the french "George" not "Georges" as it is on your petition.
IT is your right to respectfulyl disagree with Metropolitan PHILIP and exercise your consitution right for Free of the PRess/Speach, however this type of gossip hurts the Church rather than helps it.
Your Petition have no Creditibility since some sign MEtropolitan George of Mt. LEbanon Name, who is not in the middle east this week but at a Conference in Rome, and they mis-spelled his name, he spells it the English version not the french "George" not "Georges" as it is on your petition.
IT is your right to respectfulyl disagree with Metropolitan PHILIP and exercise your consitution right for Free of the PRess/Speach, however this type of gossip hurts the Church rather than helps it.
#108
Member of AOCA
on
2010-10-16 10:21
There are many issues with a petition like this. You mentioned one, but there are also problems with people poking fun at the sincere desire of many to rectify the rift that has plagued our Archdiocese. Clearly these people care nothing about their brothers and sisters in Christ. I suggest "Barney the Dinosaur" and "Klinger" reread Matthew 5:23-25.
....
....
#109
Gail Sheppard
on
2010-10-16 13:22
This interview reminds me of "A Few Good Men":
"Did you order the code red?"
"YOU'RE GOD DAMN RIGHT I DID!"
"Did you order the code red?"
"YOU'RE GOD DAMN RIGHT I DID!"
#110
Anonymous Coward
on
2010-10-16 14:01
A bishop having "millions" of dollars? Where has he kept it all these years? how many struggling communities could have benefited??? Why do people follow this gangster??
#111
Abuna Pat
on
2010-10-16 18:52
And, David, you at least have the courage to sign your comments with your real name!
#112
Janice Chadwick
on
2010-10-17 16:25
Gail, the link you provide in your post leads to some petition in a non-English language. I cannot find the audit petition on the site anywhere and, IMO the site is a big mess that would provide no credibility to any petition on it (thousands).
#113
Michael Bauman
on
2010-10-17 16:34
I've been following this controversy with Metropolitan Phillip and the Bishops for over a year now and I have the following to report and to say.
I recently wrote Bishop Basil encouraging him to reduce the "60 mile limit" on planting new Orthodox Churches to a "five mile limit."
I also emphasized to him how important I believe Orthodox Evangelism is right now.
There is a new Orthodox Evangelism tool that has been created in England and pioneered all over the world. This program has the approval of Kallistos Ware and other Orthodox leaders and only needs the permission of your local Bishop to use it.
This program is called The Way and it is inspired by the Alpha Program created in part by Anglican Priest Mickey Gumble.
It is time to turn our backs on this foolish and stupid controversy with the Bishops and look to growing a healthy Orthodox Church in the United States and Canada.
Metropolitan Phillip and all of our Bishops will eventually retire. WE CAN OUTLAST THIS SITUATION!
If we don't STEP UP AND COMPETE for souls in obedience to JESUS CHRIST, the candlestick will be taken from us and will be given to others more obedient.
I know of a local AMIA priest who has a goal and dream to plant 20 churches by the year 2020.
WHAT ARE WE DOING IN RESPONSE?
We need to get to work, brothers and sisters. We have a Pearl of Great Price, regardless of what our leaders do or fail to do.
Let's obey Christ at the Parish Level and let the chips fall where they may.
Blessings in the Holy Trinity, One God
Columba Silouoan
I recently wrote Bishop Basil encouraging him to reduce the "60 mile limit" on planting new Orthodox Churches to a "five mile limit."
I also emphasized to him how important I believe Orthodox Evangelism is right now.
There is a new Orthodox Evangelism tool that has been created in England and pioneered all over the world. This program has the approval of Kallistos Ware and other Orthodox leaders and only needs the permission of your local Bishop to use it.
This program is called The Way and it is inspired by the Alpha Program created in part by Anglican Priest Mickey Gumble.
It is time to turn our backs on this foolish and stupid controversy with the Bishops and look to growing a healthy Orthodox Church in the United States and Canada.
Metropolitan Phillip and all of our Bishops will eventually retire. WE CAN OUTLAST THIS SITUATION!
If we don't STEP UP AND COMPETE for souls in obedience to JESUS CHRIST, the candlestick will be taken from us and will be given to others more obedient.
I know of a local AMIA priest who has a goal and dream to plant 20 churches by the year 2020.
WHAT ARE WE DOING IN RESPONSE?
We need to get to work, brothers and sisters. We have a Pearl of Great Price, regardless of what our leaders do or fail to do.
Let's obey Christ at the Parish Level and let the chips fall where they may.
Blessings in the Holy Trinity, One God
Columba Silouoan
Listened to almost all of Metropolitan Philip's interview while walking on the treadmill. Just a few comments on what I heard.
1. Metropolitan Philip does not disteinquish between auxiliary bishop and diocesan bishop. However, there is conflict on what actually has occured with self-rule. In the OCA bishops have been transferred and are not called auxiliary bishops. In the past the OCA NY/NJ diocese did have an auxiliary bishop.
2. Metropolitan refers to the OCA as immature because emblezzlement of funds occurred. The Metropolitan does not see a need to look at his own archdiocese lack of transparency of its own archdiocesan funds.
3. Metropolitan claims its the Western World fault of the Terriorism by the Muslims.
4. States that SCOBA should be resurrected. It has a Constitution and did wonderful work.
5. Bishop Iakovos and the EP said they were the only ones who had a right to grant autocephaly.
6. The jurisdictions in the US should come together and demand an autocephalous church, but first needs to clean up their own houses.
I agree with Metropolitan Philip description of the OCA bishops not standing up to the EP and Chambesy. Whether one likes Metropolitan Philip or not he is charismatic and definitely a strong leader. The OCA bishops lack both. I'm apart of the OCA and am appalled that our Synod of Bishops could not stand up and defend our autocephaly and demand to be treated better.
Communication and working together of all Orthodox Bishops in the United States in a SCOBA organization is necessary. It has a Constitution. Chambesy and the meeting held in NY does not.
Order is necessary. Clear and Concise language of terminology is necessary. Philip is right unity of the Orthodox jurisdictions is not going to come about throught Chambesy and the EP. It will come about when the various Orthodox jurisdictions in the United States sit down together and hammer it out among themselves and then demand it. Unity under the Greeks will not grow the Church here in the US. We have unity in theology, doctrine and worship. Administrative unity is not on the horizon for generations.
1. Metropolitan Philip does not disteinquish between auxiliary bishop and diocesan bishop. However, there is conflict on what actually has occured with self-rule. In the OCA bishops have been transferred and are not called auxiliary bishops. In the past the OCA NY/NJ diocese did have an auxiliary bishop.
2. Metropolitan refers to the OCA as immature because emblezzlement of funds occurred. The Metropolitan does not see a need to look at his own archdiocese lack of transparency of its own archdiocesan funds.
3. Metropolitan claims its the Western World fault of the Terriorism by the Muslims.
4. States that SCOBA should be resurrected. It has a Constitution and did wonderful work.
5. Bishop Iakovos and the EP said they were the only ones who had a right to grant autocephaly.
6. The jurisdictions in the US should come together and demand an autocephalous church, but first needs to clean up their own houses.
I agree with Metropolitan Philip description of the OCA bishops not standing up to the EP and Chambesy. Whether one likes Metropolitan Philip or not he is charismatic and definitely a strong leader. The OCA bishops lack both. I'm apart of the OCA and am appalled that our Synod of Bishops could not stand up and defend our autocephaly and demand to be treated better.
Communication and working together of all Orthodox Bishops in the United States in a SCOBA organization is necessary. It has a Constitution. Chambesy and the meeting held in NY does not.
Order is necessary. Clear and Concise language of terminology is necessary. Philip is right unity of the Orthodox jurisdictions is not going to come about throught Chambesy and the EP. It will come about when the various Orthodox jurisdictions in the United States sit down together and hammer it out among themselves and then demand it. Unity under the Greeks will not grow the Church here in the US. We have unity in theology, doctrine and worship. Administrative unity is not on the horizon for generations.
#115
anonymous
on
2010-10-18 09:47
Someone up above mentioned the Arch'd Food for Hungry People Program. Yes, each year a listing complete of what each parish raised. BUT NEVER who received WHAT!
Know why because the Met. distributes as he sees fit. NO ACCOUNTING to ANYONE including the chairlady who heads the program. Once in a while a short "thank you" printed in the WORD magazine. Most off to pave the way for "good purposes" in the far off land. Clergy retirement NO!
Know why because the Met. distributes as he sees fit. NO ACCOUNTING to ANYONE including the chairlady who heads the program. Once in a while a short "thank you" printed in the WORD magazine. Most off to pave the way for "good purposes" in the far off land. Clergy retirement NO!
#116
Anonymous
on
2010-10-18 21:59
Folks here is the bottom line about the money situation:
1. The money belongs to the Archdiocese, this will always be the official position vis a vis the IRS. MP admits this much.
2. MP is for all practical purposes the personification of the Archdiocese, both practically and legally as the Sole Corporate person on the books. In other words, MP IS the Archdiocese.
3. The co-mingling of funds between MP's person and the Archdiocese is therefore to be expected. The lines are blurred. It is a gray area:
4. The money belongs to the Archdiocese but no one other than the MP has control over it. This is carefully crafted. No one is willing or able to challenge the MP over it.
5. This situation has been many years in the making. It is the way things are in this Archdiocese - this ethos runs deep and wide.
6. True change will entail changing the legal structure of the Archdiocese. It will entail a change of the hearts and minds of the people. It will entail a change at the helm. It will require a functioning Synod.
And that folks is the bottom line.
(Editor's note: Well it is one bottom line, but hardly the end of the story. "Le'etat, c'est moi?". Unfortunately, the bottom line to such attitudes is the remark of Loui's grandson:
" Apres moi, le deluge..." And so it was. Can we learn nothing from history?)
1. The money belongs to the Archdiocese, this will always be the official position vis a vis the IRS. MP admits this much.
2. MP is for all practical purposes the personification of the Archdiocese, both practically and legally as the Sole Corporate person on the books. In other words, MP IS the Archdiocese.
3. The co-mingling of funds between MP's person and the Archdiocese is therefore to be expected. The lines are blurred. It is a gray area:
4. The money belongs to the Archdiocese but no one other than the MP has control over it. This is carefully crafted. No one is willing or able to challenge the MP over it.
5. This situation has been many years in the making. It is the way things are in this Archdiocese - this ethos runs deep and wide.
6. True change will entail changing the legal structure of the Archdiocese. It will entail a change of the hearts and minds of the people. It will entail a change at the helm. It will require a functioning Synod.
And that folks is the bottom line.
(Editor's note: Well it is one bottom line, but hardly the end of the story. "Le'etat, c'est moi?". Unfortunately, the bottom line to such attitudes is the remark of Loui's grandson:
" Apres moi, le deluge..." And so it was. Can we learn nothing from history?)
Reply to editor's note:
Yes the "state is me" is the unfortunate current bottom line and the only one that matters at the moment. Damascus has been called in to fortify MP's position. There's no one person or body that can challenge the status quo. Money and power are in firm control at Englewood. What can we learn? The prediction of deluge - and more applicable here in this immediate context: division of the archdiocese due to divesture of power to a real synod - should be seen for what it is, fear mongering. Granting authority in any one person is a departure from catholicity, from the living tradition of the Church. This is a test not at all a novelty to the Church - "for there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized". May we all pass that test, for the stakes are high. Orthodox Christians across jurisdictions: be recognized! Pray for us, sign the petition, let your voice be heard.
(Editor's note: Unfortunately for your position, history is full of one person and bodies challenging the status quo, beginning with our Lord who challenged the Prince of this World. Successfully. As Solhentisyn said: "The truth outweighs the entire world. " Speak the truth, speak it to power, and pick up the mantle that Elijah dropped for you. Then your voice, no matter how small, no matter how weak, no matter how powerless will be heard. And if not by man, it will be heard by God, who brought down the walls of Jericho by a thousand shouts! You think I'm dreaming? Well, friend, look at the shouts of a thousand in the OCA did over the past five years. Who, in their right mind, according to your perspective, could have foreseen in October 2005 that five years down the road RSK, Herman and their whole staff at Syosset would be gone and in disgrace, not to mention two other bishops: the financial mismanagement stopped, the charitable debts repaid or being repayed; a new MC elected capable of its tasks, and new bishops elected, not appointed, throughout the dioceses? Sure its a slog, and a scandal, and they are not over; but we are scrubbing ourselves clean, if in public. But the humility is good for us. We shall emerge when we do, leaner, better organized, more united, more focused, and more humble. Not a bad way to re-start, since we must. ANd we start as a small village, not a Potemkin one. Others can do the same, not because we are better or different, but just the opposite. You can do the same because you are us. We are all Orthodox, we are all in America, and nothing can withstand the truth. )
Yes the "state is me" is the unfortunate current bottom line and the only one that matters at the moment. Damascus has been called in to fortify MP's position. There's no one person or body that can challenge the status quo. Money and power are in firm control at Englewood. What can we learn? The prediction of deluge - and more applicable here in this immediate context: division of the archdiocese due to divesture of power to a real synod - should be seen for what it is, fear mongering. Granting authority in any one person is a departure from catholicity, from the living tradition of the Church. This is a test not at all a novelty to the Church - "for there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized". May we all pass that test, for the stakes are high. Orthodox Christians across jurisdictions: be recognized! Pray for us, sign the petition, let your voice be heard.
(Editor's note: Unfortunately for your position, history is full of one person and bodies challenging the status quo, beginning with our Lord who challenged the Prince of this World. Successfully. As Solhentisyn said: "The truth outweighs the entire world. " Speak the truth, speak it to power, and pick up the mantle that Elijah dropped for you. Then your voice, no matter how small, no matter how weak, no matter how powerless will be heard. And if not by man, it will be heard by God, who brought down the walls of Jericho by a thousand shouts! You think I'm dreaming? Well, friend, look at the shouts of a thousand in the OCA did over the past five years. Who, in their right mind, according to your perspective, could have foreseen in October 2005 that five years down the road RSK, Herman and their whole staff at Syosset would be gone and in disgrace, not to mention two other bishops: the financial mismanagement stopped, the charitable debts repaid or being repayed; a new MC elected capable of its tasks, and new bishops elected, not appointed, throughout the dioceses? Sure its a slog, and a scandal, and they are not over; but we are scrubbing ourselves clean, if in public. But the humility is good for us. We shall emerge when we do, leaner, better organized, more united, more focused, and more humble. Not a bad way to re-start, since we must. ANd we start as a small village, not a Potemkin one. Others can do the same, not because we are better or different, but just the opposite. You can do the same because you are us. We are all Orthodox, we are all in America, and nothing can withstand the truth. )
#118
Apophatically speaking
on
2010-10-19 14:21
Editor:
No, I don't think you are dreaming, you are speaking the truth; furthermore, I believe our voice has already been heard by God.
Did you sign the petition yet?
No, I don't think you are dreaming, you are speaking the truth; furthermore, I believe our voice has already been heard by God.
Did you sign the petition yet?
When will people get it? + Philip is the top honcho, the patriarch, of HIS tribe. He is a tribal chieftain! His word is law! If he wants a priest to succeed, he will succeed. If he wants a priest to fail, he will fail. If he wants to give someone money, they will receive it and vice-versa. He is like a god and he enjoys his role. He sees himself as a benevolent, all-powerful leader protecting his tribe.
You have to know who your leaders are!
You have to know who your leaders are!
#120
Anonymous
on
2010-10-19 20:34
You do not have the mind and heart of an Orthodox Christian and so it seems pointless to try and discuss the reasons why the Church in her wisdom has held 'consecrated virginity for the Kingdom' as the ideal for bishops. Let it be said simply that Canon XII of the extended Sixth Ecumenical Council prescribes conscrated celibacy for bishops---period.
N.B. The Council in Trullo was convoked by the Emperor Justinian II to create disciplinary canons for the Byzantine Church. It was intended to be a completion to the Fifth and Sixth Ecumenical Councils. In regards to the sexual conduct of clergy it agreed with the Latin Church that "there must be only a single marriage contracted before ordination, and it cannot be with a widow or with other women excluded by the law. After ordination, a first or further marriage is not licit. Bishops can no longer live in marriage with their spouse but must live in complete continence, and therefore their wives can no longer live with them. On the other hand, these wives must be maintained or supported by the Church."
Yet there is one substantial difference between the praxis of the Byzantine Church and that of the Latin Church, and it is found in canon 13 of Trullo:
Since we know it to be handed down as a rule of the Roman Church that those who are deemed worthy to be advanced to the deaconate or presbyterate should promise to no longer cohabit with their wives, we, preserving the ancient rule and apostolic perfection and order, will that the lawful marriages of men who are in holy orders be from this time forward firm, by no means dissolving their union with their wives nor depriving them of their mutual intercourse at a convenient time"
You missed point also when you suggested that it is about sexual intercourse. It is not so much that as the obligations of married life with respect to having time for a wife and children. Any married priest worth his salt will tell you that there are times in his priestly ministry when celibacy would seem to be a great blessing for his wife and children...because he has little time for them. (I have been a confessor to married priests for over 30 years...and I have heard this constantly!)
Previous comments about the former OCA chancellor were NOT "cheap shots" by the way. Simply meant to show that priests who are married and in positions of authority and power in the Church do not necessarily rise HIGH in ascetical paths, but, like us all, often fall because of the higher position...and the fall from "on high" is much more serious.
I shall continue to pray that the mind and heart of the Church beomes your own.
N.B. The Council in Trullo was convoked by the Emperor Justinian II to create disciplinary canons for the Byzantine Church. It was intended to be a completion to the Fifth and Sixth Ecumenical Councils. In regards to the sexual conduct of clergy it agreed with the Latin Church that "there must be only a single marriage contracted before ordination, and it cannot be with a widow or with other women excluded by the law. After ordination, a first or further marriage is not licit. Bishops can no longer live in marriage with their spouse but must live in complete continence, and therefore their wives can no longer live with them. On the other hand, these wives must be maintained or supported by the Church."
Yet there is one substantial difference between the praxis of the Byzantine Church and that of the Latin Church, and it is found in canon 13 of Trullo:
Since we know it to be handed down as a rule of the Roman Church that those who are deemed worthy to be advanced to the deaconate or presbyterate should promise to no longer cohabit with their wives, we, preserving the ancient rule and apostolic perfection and order, will that the lawful marriages of men who are in holy orders be from this time forward firm, by no means dissolving their union with their wives nor depriving them of their mutual intercourse at a convenient time"
You missed point also when you suggested that it is about sexual intercourse. It is not so much that as the obligations of married life with respect to having time for a wife and children. Any married priest worth his salt will tell you that there are times in his priestly ministry when celibacy would seem to be a great blessing for his wife and children...because he has little time for them. (I have been a confessor to married priests for over 30 years...and I have heard this constantly!)
Previous comments about the former OCA chancellor were NOT "cheap shots" by the way. Simply meant to show that priests who are married and in positions of authority and power in the Church do not necessarily rise HIGH in ascetical paths, but, like us all, often fall because of the higher position...and the fall from "on high" is much more serious.
I shall continue to pray that the mind and heart of the Church beomes your own.
#121
Archimandrite
on
2010-10-20 07:26
Monks tonsured to the small schema do take the vow of "non-acquisitiveness." See "The Great Book of Needs," vol. 1.
(Editor's note: Well, there's an expression you can drive a truck through. It shouldn't be hard to argue that you can possess things and be " non-acquistive" at the same time. Of course, a couple of million bucks is a little stretch.....)
(Editor's note: Well, there's an expression you can drive a truck through. It shouldn't be hard to argue that you can possess things and be " non-acquistive" at the same time. Of course, a couple of million bucks is a little stretch.....)
#122
Morton
on
2010-10-20 09:48
The comments about beards and pony tails miss the point. Monks are not of this world. That is the ideal, at any rate. One of the most common descriptions of a monk is of someone whose life is dedicated to prayer and repentance. Being an administrator may be a particular monk's assigned obedience, although it is frankly hard for me to understand how the manager of a nine-figure business that has never had an outside audit qualifies as a "good" administrator. Be that as it may, notions of personal grooming should be of no concern to a person who doesn't expect to be seen by anyone but his brother monks.
#123
Morton
on
2010-10-20 10:49
Michael,
Sorry you're having trouble with the site. This is the link:
http://www.petitiononline.com/Audit/petition.html
Gail
Sorry you're having trouble with the site. This is the link:
http://www.petitiononline.com/Audit/petition.html
Gail
#124
Gail Sheppard
on
2010-10-20 18:58
"Met. Philip exemplifies what an Orthodox bishop should look like in America. Well-shaven, no pony tails or beards, dress as a business man, well-educated and a very good administrator."
I confess that, when I first read this sentence, I presumed it was sarcasm.
I confess that, when I first read this sentence, I presumed it was sarcasm.
#125
Patrick Henry Reardon
on
2010-10-21 09:33
Hopefully, later today we will have video up on YouTube, ( droolingox tag) of St George in Troy, mi.
Watch Walid Khalife and ft Joseph Antypas assert Walid is still a Board of Trustees member, a felon who plead guilty.
Watch George Darany, Walid Khalife and Fr Joseph Antypas bully those clamoring for an external audit by stating the Board of Trustees forbids any parish from having an nexternal audit.
Watch the Spiritual advisor for the Order of St Ignatius lie to his people asserting that they have no choice but to follow archdiocesan policy. Therefore no external audit.
Why would anyone join St Ignatius or support a priest who forges checks?
Watch Walid Khalife and ft Joseph Antypas assert Walid is still a Board of Trustees member, a felon who plead guilty.
Watch George Darany, Walid Khalife and Fr Joseph Antypas bully those clamoring for an external audit by stating the Board of Trustees forbids any parish from having an nexternal audit.
Watch the Spiritual advisor for the Order of St Ignatius lie to his people asserting that they have no choice but to follow archdiocesan policy. Therefore no external audit.
Why would anyone join St Ignatius or support a priest who forges checks?
#126
Anonymous
on
2010-10-21 09:47
Columba,
There is a dangerous fallacy in your thinking.
It is a big mistake to define "work" as either one or the other. Both outreach and working on internal issues are needed. It makes no sense and is detrimental to call people into a dysfunctional environment. We can't work in a vacuum, pretending as if what our leaders do or fail to do doesn't matter or doesn't have an impact. It does have an impact, we can't and should not ignore it else we be the enablers of dysfunction. In short, getting busy with outreach amounts to sticking our collective heads in the sand if we neglect other issues.
There is a dangerous fallacy in your thinking.
It is a big mistake to define "work" as either one or the other. Both outreach and working on internal issues are needed. It makes no sense and is detrimental to call people into a dysfunctional environment. We can't work in a vacuum, pretending as if what our leaders do or fail to do doesn't matter or doesn't have an impact. It does have an impact, we can't and should not ignore it else we be the enablers of dysfunction. In short, getting busy with outreach amounts to sticking our collective heads in the sand if we neglect other issues.
"Why would anyone join St Ignatius or support a priest who forges checks?"
Cause most people don't know what is going on.
Cause most people don't know what is going on.
Oh, you silly Antionymous! ....
The sad thing is that, first, the old Arab guard in that parish, with Met. Philip's active consent, tried to get rid of Fr. Isaac Henke by making Bp. Mark do the dirty work (which he was eager to do to win the approval of his then new masters). And now, the old Arab guard in his diocese, with Met. Philip's active consent, is trying to get rid of Bp. Mark himself! It's deja vu all over again.
The sad thing is that, first, the old Arab guard in that parish, with Met. Philip's active consent, tried to get rid of Fr. Isaac Henke by making Bp. Mark do the dirty work (which he was eager to do to win the approval of his then new masters). And now, the old Arab guard in his diocese, with Met. Philip's active consent, is trying to get rid of Bp. Mark himself! It's deja vu all over again.
#129
Anonymous
on
2010-10-23 19:21
True...The decicive point has always seemed to me to be the extent to which a person controls material resources. It is quite possible to be literally impoverished, while exercising control over very substantial assets. Monks are meant to be poor in spirit, not merely poor in dollars. (And what about robes and the various sorts of paraphenalia?)
#130
Morton
on
2010-10-25 08:42
This hits the issue squarely in the middle. In the North American jurisdictions, dioceses and metropolia are generally very large. I can't imagine adding to a bishop's stresses and strains the concern that his marriage isn't getting the attention it deserves, or that he is mostly an absentee father.
Selecting bishops from the ranks of monastics is STILL practical, at least for now. Someday we may have dozens of bishops in small dicoese, and at that point it may make some sort of sense to re-examine the practices of the Second and Third Centuries. For now, it makes more sense (at least to my mind) to focus on beefing up monastic practice and improving the stock from which episcopal candidates will be drawn.
Selecting bishops from the ranks of monastics is STILL practical, at least for now. Someday we may have dozens of bishops in small dicoese, and at that point it may make some sort of sense to re-examine the practices of the Second and Third Centuries. For now, it makes more sense (at least to my mind) to focus on beefing up monastic practice and improving the stock from which episcopal candidates will be drawn.
#131
Morton
on
2010-10-25 08:55
The vows are the same, at least in the Great Book of Needs (St. Tikhon's Seminary Press, 2000) whether it is the little or great schema. (Both are referred to as "angelic, btw.) For the latter, the monk vows "for a second time..." and the ceremony is longer, as befits someone who is essentially dying to this world. In both cases, the word is "non-acquisitiveness," although I don't know what it would be in Greek or Slavonic. (Help anyone?) In neither case does the monk take a vow of "poverty." The point seems very close to what Buddhists mean when they talk about non-attachment. We accept all God's blessings without attaching to them. If He sends us material abundance, we try to share it as widely and wisely as possible. If He sends us material dearth, we pull in our belts and cheerfully get on with it.
#132
Morton
on
2010-10-26 05:09
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